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Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan (seattletimes.com)
355 points by xenocyon 78 days ago | hide | past | favorite | 282 comments

I never understood the secretive nature of these Amazon "devplan" / "FOCUS" lists. If an employee has a performance issue, they should know. Period. If they are on a formal list, they should know that too.

The only "positive" here is that it can affect the individual's moral to know you are not meeting expectations - but that has to be communicated regardless. If it's understood it has to be communicated and there is a list specifically including the individual, it's up to the company to manage that communication in a supportive manner.

And the consequences of this secretive list are a culture of fear and uncertainty and doubt. Especially with the harsh consequences such as - if you leave while on this secretive list (which you cannot even know you are on) - you are ineligible for rehire.

The solution is not to maintain a secretive list of employees who have performance issues - it is to be fully transparent about those performance issues and destigmatize being included in this nebulous secretive list in the first place - through a culture of support and shared success.

Honestly it boggles my mind how Amazon managers accept this status quo at the scale that Amazon operates. It is so on it's face a recipe for having a toxic culture which breeds stress, doubt, and only serves to reinforce poor performance outcomes.

Out of all the things I've heard about Amazon culture for its software organization - this single thing (secretive lists of employees with performance issues with "never rehire" consequences that employees can't even understand they are on) symbolizes for me all the reasons I would avoid them as an employer. There is no way to have this process without creating a toxic culture.

A toxic culture of fear is the intended effect here.

People at amazon love to discuss the flywheel effect[1]. The flywheel here is the culture of fear that keeps employees on their toes. Bezos believes that employees are inherently lazy[2], and it seems like fear is tool the S-team have chosen to solve the problem of lazy employees.

This has a lot of unintended consequences[3], but the executives with the power to change this don't care as long as they keep getting rewarded with a higher stock price, and fresh college grads who are willing to sacrifice themselves at the altar.




Imagine suffering from imposter syndrome in an office with this fear culture. People will work themselves to the bone trying to fix personal perceived inadequecies. Then they burnout and quit.

I guess if workers are considered expendable than that's a positive. Corporations need to be more accountable to their workers welfare and not solely stockholder's welfare.

My understanding is that some systems, for instance in Germany, have a system like this. The employees have elected representatives on the board of directors, giving them a direct say in corporate policies.

> Corporations need to be more accountable to their workers welfare and not solely stockholder's welfare.

there's no incentive for doing so. As far as the owner of the company is concerned, ensuring there s a pay-cheque is the end of the company's responsibility.

Given their seeming labour challenges, maybe it is a self regulating problem?

Do you think that this culture will shift with his retirement, or do you think that this culture is so embedded within the fabric of Amazon itself, that there is no separating this kind of behavior from the company without a dismantling of the corporate structure itself?

Andy Jassy used to lead AWS before becoming Amazon's CEO.

AWS has a reputation of being a difficult place to work, even more so than Amazon's other divisions.

So no, I don't think anything will change.


Inside Amazon AWS is considered a better place than other places actually

Yes, those poor AWS employees sure have it tough vs that warehouse division.

> Yes, those poor AWS employees sure have it tough vs that warehouse division.

Pointing out that someone has it shittier is typically an excuse for shittyness.

Or in some cases letting said shittiness manifest because the person doing the pointing isn't themselves subject to it and/or could stand to lose ground when someone decides to do something about it.

Yes that’s why I thought it odd to say the AWS devs have it hardest in the whole company. It’s not a competition though it always feels a bit silly to pretend back breaking physical labor is easier than sitting in an air conditioned office in a chair.

The strongest plausible interpretation is they meant for equivalent jobs.

Company culture always decays over time to reflect incentives. Not to denigrate Andy Jassy as a Harvard MBA turned Marketing Manager who moved up to become a CEO. But upper management always ends up with the kinds of people who tend to reach upper management in any company.

That said, Amazon’s culture is closer to the norm than most startups so in the short term things are unlikely to change much. At least until some new management fad becomes popular or they run into a significant issue.

Unless they dump the entire senior management and bring new folks in, its not changing. That culture is at the core of Amazon, and perhaps even a contributor to its success, at the detriment of its own employees of course.

I think we define success too narrowly for these sprawling organizations with massive social influence.

How much political scrip such an organization generates given esoteric economic measures should not outweigh real world impact

yes here. if no person knows if is on performence management plan all must act like they are on probation of some sort, work much extra. like dictatorship where person may be monitored any time and so always act like this.

Amazon is the company that created a button you can push to reorder toilet paper. It takes all of the friction out ordering from them, and gives you the option to purchase right at the moment of greatest need.

FOCUS is a "button" managers can push to fire employees. Once you push the button, the employee is on track for termination and all of the CYA for-cause documentation happens automatically.

From my reading of the article it sounds like the part where the manager is to "... tell the employee that their performance is not meeting expectations, the specific areas where they need to improve, and offer feedback and support to help them improve." is completely optional and in fact requires that the manager take the initiative to actually do this. I could be wrong about this, but why would these instructions be in a FAQ if they were baked in to actual procedures?

To me it seems like FOCUS is a dark pattern meant to encourage managers to implement stack ranking. It also seems like a tool that could be abused to make arbitrary firings seem like they are for legitimate cause.

I have spent a lot of time on Blind where this is discussed often and I think I have an idea what is going on.

At a high level, Amazon orgs have Unregretted Attrition (URA) targets/quotas for orgs. Not every manager needs to hit the exact target but under a certain level of middle management they do. Because of this built-in churn they need to have a pipeline of low performers - because once the current set of URA targets get managed out or leave you will need to still hit that quota next quarter/half/year/whatever. So maybe your quota is 5% but you have another 5-10% extra in earlier stages of your pipeline so you can sacrifice them later.

In the later stages when you’re actively getting managed out they put you on a formal PIP. In theory it’s possible to “get out” of it but because of the quotas it’s pretty much a lost cause. So on Blind the most common suggestion for people on PIP is to do the absolute bare minimum and start interviewing elsewhere, expecting to fail the PIP.

I imagine the reason Amazon doesn’t want people to know about Focus/Dev plans is that once you know you’re in the earlier stages of the pipeline, you may come to a similar conclusion. Basically if a target is painted on your back and you know there’s a high probability you’re going to get managed in the next 6 months, it’s better to do the bare minimum at work and focus as much as possible on getting a new job. But from Amazon’s perspective that’s a lot of lost work/time/money, and they’re not even sure yet that they want to get rid of those people. And further, if employees don’t know about the performance plan there is less chance they will deliberately sandbag and may actually improve their ranking enough to move off the early stage pipeline.

In my opinion the root of all this disfunction is the quota system. If managers were not forced to manage out so many people and being on a “low performance plan” at any stage were seen as an actual opportunity to identify issues and improve performance, there would be much less incentive to sandbag by doing the bare minimum, and also much less need for secrecy about the process.

But this is Amazon, I am sure they have thought deeply about this. My guess is that they have done the math on many alternatives and this is the least-worst. For example by managing out so many people they can be less selective in hiring which may be better overall (eg an overall acceptance rate of 20% with 10% of those being false positives fills more roles than an overall acceptance rate of 10% with a 0% false positive rate). Of course managing people out also has a cost in creating an unpleasant/toxic work environment that itself increases churn, which they may or may not account for. Keep in mind due to their vesting models, a good performer burning out and quitting after 2 years is actually good for their bottom line. As long as they continue to fill roles I doubt they will be incentivized to change this model.

That does make a lot of sense. One question I have is how this practice will affect their reputation. My theory is that the reputational damage will most adversely affect their ability to hire more experienced workers. But maybe their plan is to hire more people fresh out of college and bring them up internally (the ones that don’t get URA’d anyway), in which case the reputational damage may not matter as much? It still seems like a pretty big long term gamble to me. I have to think a lot of experienced workers will be reluctant to even consider working at a place with this level of shenanigans. I know I would be.

I do believe that Amazon has irrevocably hurt its image. You only need to spend like a week using the Blind app and you'll run into a few horror stories about amazon.

There were posts on the blind app regarding how amazon has been having trouble hiring experienced folks. I am also seeing increased linkedin posts from Amazon SDMs in my network, all advertising positions they have open on their team.

> maybe their plan is to hire more people fresh out of college and bring them up internally

In addition to new grads, amazon also depends on L1 visa imports from India and other countries. And maybe H1 hires here. Its not easy to switch jobs on visa besides you need to stay at a company for 2-3 years to get green card, so it works out in Amazon's favor. My guess is they are feeling the pinch now because Covid is bad in India, and India to US travel is stopped, So visa pipeline has dried out significantly.

I can see how some small aspects of this policy could make sense objectively. Having a URA target + needing a pipeline to feed that at scale certainly makes sense - notwithstanding the proven misguided approach of having a URA target to begin with.

But taken as a whole I cannot help but conclude that the program is meant to instil a culture of fear (and by extension toxicity). Considering the following:

* A manager may or may not have made vague statements to indicate you are on this list. Since the manager is explicitly instructed not to talk about the list itself, it is up to the employee to triangulate from a manager's statements their standing relative to performance. This means that employees can never really be sure about their status with respect to this list and so must constantly be on their toes (especially regarding statements from their managers).

* If a person is borderline under-performing, what is the logic in preventing them from switching teams internally? Perhaps a culture change or a product change would tip the scales for them to increase performance. Maybe there is a culture clash with the org or with the direct manager. I don't see any downside in maintaining the FOCUS status but allowing the employee to explore options to improve their productivity internally.

* If a person is borderline under-performing, what is the rationale behind blacklisting them from ever becoming rehired at the company? This the most egregious offence to me regarding the entire program - that Amazon is hanging a sword of damocles over all their employees heads, implicitly threatening them with blacklisting them as one of the largest tech employers in the industry. This list, again, being entirely secretive and Amazon explicitly instructing managers not to talk about with employees.

From my understanding, you can work at Amazon several years, be on a FOCUS/devlist for a huge amount of that time - and never even know. When you leave, you are automatically marked as URA and ineligible to rejoin the company.

This all adds up to me as a program specifically designed to be vaguely threatening and fear inducing.

If we assume an ideal world where managers are all great communicators and can handle performance management with skill and would never misuse the program for any reason - I can maybe squint and suspend my disbelief enough to see how this program can effectively work.

But you would have to be breathlessly naive to assume that's how the program would practically work in the real world with actual managers (and the state of middle/upper management in tech companies at large).

Any management/leadership team who is OK with rolling such a program out at scale given the above is not a team I would want to work with in any capacity, and IMO it just speaks to the dehumanizing nature of the culture they are aiming to create. It is inconceivable that upper management at Amazon doesn't realize these effects of the program.

Like you say, they have probably thought about it deeply, and just don't care. The metrics are working for them, so it continues. I personally am not going to lose sleep over it, I will simply refuse to work there. I hope employees who do work there know that there are other technology companies who actually consider these negative effects on their own employees and actually have empathy towards creating a place where people genuinely want to work - because for other companies, the equation regarding optimizing business metrics lands a bit differently when it comes to their own employees. If you can pass the bar at Amazon you can pass the bar at other places. Don't sell yourself short thinking this is normal or OK.

Easy solution: apply the same process to management and C-level.

C-level executives consider themselves too important to be subject to this level of pressure and toxicity.

Couldn’t this backfire by making a lot more employees feel they should always be evaluating other offers because it’s unknown to them if they’re going to be dismissed at the end of the eval period.

Maybe they are just trying to hide their unspoken requirement of firing a given proportion of their workplace for managers to be considered good. It should help give them plausible deniability when they need to fire someone that wasn't on the list as well.

I bet this FOCUS list is used by managers to prevent good engineers moving to a different team.

Also my experience tells me that all these mega corps have very similar culture.

It's a government regulation.

An employee can perform terrible for many reasons one cannot control. For example, intro team communication.

In order to avoid future lawsuit, Amazon has to set up an independent project without any external dependency for the person under PIP and document all the progress. So that the person being PIP cannot sue his employer inthe future.

It doesn't seem crazy to me on the surface. You say you are worried about "toxic culture which breeds stress" but I think you could equally say that constantly getting notes that you are a below-average performer would be just as bad.

Discovering that I misunderstood the seriousness of an issue is more stressful than being told something explicitly. And a major misunderstanding decreases trust. It would be much better to explicitly be told I'm on a pre-PIP plan than to assume it's a less serious issue and find out when I try to change teams.

I’m pretty sure they won’t let someone change teams, and many of the people on this list aren’t expected (and for some managers, maybe not even allowed) to improve.

That's the point. They don't want a blocked transfer to be the first sign they could lose their job.

Not really. The management team can make mistakes too. In those cases, it is not clear whether it is better for the employee to know. There is no clear cut obvious answer to this, unless you assume everyone is an emotionless robot.

It's not like management will just let the employer keep underperforming. They'll secretly PIP them, let them continue on their course, and then fire them with no warning.

No. Sometimes the employee didn't underperform at all. Why do you assume the manager always know the truth?

Management effectively does know the truth, for the trivial reason that they get to decide what the truth is. They are the ones who get to decide what counts as performing and underperforming. It's not as though there is some objective way to determine who is and isn't a desirable employee.

Not sure what you mean "truth". There is a discovery process, before they form their opinions.

Yes, I was mirroring your own use of the word "truth." My point is that performance reviews are simply the result of management's opinions. You asked the question "Why do you assume the manager always know the truth?" and the answer is that truth is irrelevant (or perhaps even nonsense as a concept) in this context. Only opinions matter, specifically the opinions that make up your performance review, which are the opinions of management. There is no objective way to measure your performance or, if there is, management likely is not doing so unless you work in a field with very easily measurable output (billable hours or something like that).

As in many or most aspects of social activities like work, objective reality effectively does not exist. Only the consensus reality matters.

That is not true. Performance evaluation is not totally subjective.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. To me it's obvious that performance reviews aren't and cannot be objective. You may disagree, but this will inevitably lead to dissonance when you your boss's assessment of your performance doesn't line up with what you think your "objective" performance is. This will eventually happen if it hasn't already. If you get a bad review while you think you're knocking it out of the park, the attitude I've outlined here has two benefits. First, it helps you realize that this supposedly objective review of your worth to the company is in fact largely bullshit. Second, it helps you realize that you need to spend some time learning whatever it is that your boss thinks is valuable and optimizing for that instead of whatever you're optimizing for now.

I didn't read OP's comment as "performance issues should be publicized within the workforce" and more "performance issues should be known to the individual employee"

If management thinks you're doing a bad job, it's not needed to make it known to the entire team - but you should know.

I don't think you should always know. I also updated the language.

Doing something about a problem generally requires someone is aware that a problem exists right?

Otherwise it’s just marking them for future termination without telling them, which seems like a waste of everyone’s time.

No. The management team can make honest mistake. After preliminary investigation, they find they are wrong. No need to tell the employee in this regard.

I did not say they should never tell the employee. I think sometimes it's unnecessary.

Shouldn’t that investigation happen before they are considered a performance problem and put on the list?

Giving the employee a chance to rebut any performance problem assumptions would be an important part of this, and would also require they know.

Yes. At some point the employee should know. But there is a process, and I don't think they should inform the employee right from the start.

How much experience do you have managing people?

In my 15+ years doing so, I’ve never heard or seen a situation in a reasonable organization where someone gets on a list like this (intentionally, as compared to their manager screwing up by not having a conversation with them before it is clearly a huge problem to everyone else) without knowing they are going to get on a list like this if they don’t improve.

I have heard it at many places that are flogging employees or using scare tactics to get every cent worth of value they can put or people before they burn out and get thrown on the rubbish bin.

As the employee in that situation I'd want to be told, so I could improve how I manage others' perception of me.

> “Should I tell an employee that I entered them into Focus?” the question reads. The response: “Do not discuss Focus with employees. Instead, tell the employee that their performance is not meeting expectations, the specific areas where they need to improve, and offer feedback and support to help them improve.”

The headline is editorialized. IMO whether you’re told you’re in Focus or not is irrelevant. If your manager is telling you you’re not meeting expectations, that’s plenty of signal of what’s going on.

The discussion in this thread is written more as if Amazon is pushing out capable talent.

There’s a more fundamental question - are we saying once you get hired, your job should be permanent, regardless of your performance?

> One Amazon engineer, who joined the company in late 2016, said he found out that he had been on the development list for nearly 18 months only after his manager changed. His new manager, he said, inquired about his performance-management plan.

> “My response was, ‘Are you sure you don’t have your wires crossed?'” he said.

Headline seems pretty accurate to me. Nobody should be on a performance improvement plan without being told.


To further on this -- it's really the absolute basics of transparency. Imagine if students didn't get any scores on tests back until they were about to fail the class. It's super important to know accurately and early exactly what people think of your work so you can adjust.

Aside from every other reason, let's remember that nobody is perfect, including managers. At least 20% of the time in my experience, when a manager thinks somebody is doing poorly it's because they manager is missing key information or relying on outdated information. Just one anecdote I know a manager who was only assessing somebody based on Jira tickets, but that engineer was doing tons of important work outside the jira tickets. The manager needs to initiate that communication clearly and immediately to resolve the discrepancy.

"I am totally unappreciated in my time. You can run this whole park from this room with minimal staff for up to 3 days. You think that kind of automation is easy? Or cheap? You know anybody who can network 8 connection machines and debug 2 million lines of code for what I bid for this job? Because if he can I'd like to see him try."

Was reading this at face value heh. Anyway, nice try Dennis, now get back to work!

I thought this was a Gilfoyle quote for a second!

"Eh-eh-aaaah! ... Eh-eh-aaaah!"

Jurassic Park reference? Nice. :)

How did that lack of performance oversight work out for Nedry anyway? Oh...

The process is relevant to the company. So it's relevant to the employee.

The headline is correct unless Amazon policy is not telling employees about performance problems before Focus. Otherwise the discussion about Focus sounds just like the discussion they should have before Focus.

> There’s a more fundamental question - are we saying once you get hired, your job should be permanent, regardless of your performance?

I haven't seen even 1 comment even imply anything even close. I've seen many comments say employees should know where they stand.

You said you work at Amazon in another comment.[1] It would have been appropriate to say here.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27786929

“It would have been appropriate…” I don’t think I did anything inappropriate, which is what you seem to be implying. My other comment about working at Amazon is in this same HN discussion. And you can see that I work for Amazon from my post history.

Performance management is a necessity in any company, but whether you’re in “Focus” or not is besides the point.

There’s no company policy that managers cannot or should not discuss performance or providing coaching until an employee enters focus. This is absolutely false, and if someone’s doing this, they’re a bad manager failing at their job.

Performance feedback and discussing career growth is exactly what manager 1:1s are for. You’ll know way in advance if there are performance problems. If you don’t know or somehow it was never communicated with you, that sounds like a manager who is failing their team. And among the size of Amazons workforce, the probability of no manager ever dropping the ball or failing at their job is 0. Managers can be ineffective, just as the people who report to them.

But to repeat, company policy is NOT to hide performance feedback from employees. The article is editorialized. One example the article provides is a person who was put on Focus who is a person of color. Actually, I’m a person of color too. You could try to argue my perspective reeks of survivorship bias. On the other hand, a significant chunk of the workforce in engineering and tech related roles are people of color. Amazon is significantly more diverse than other industries I previously worked in. Again, I 100% don’t believe your skin color, race, religion, gender, or any other type of discrimination is a factor in performance. That’s simply not the company I know.

And my question stands - yes, there are employees who under perform. And when they’re let go, they’re going to be upset with the company. Most people, no matter how brilliant they are or are not, are not great at receiving feedback, particularly negative feedback. But the issue I see here is it’s implied that these are all solid performers who were put into performance management for no reason at all or they were blind sided. I don’t believe that’s a systemic issue.

In my opinion, the hiring interviews do their best to establish a high bar for candidates, but we do make hires who are great on paper, can white board problems, but they fail to deliver at their work. These people are given plenty of feedback PRIOR to Focus or any performance management plan kicks in.

This article makes it sound like Amazon hires and fires at will. From my personal experience, this is not true where I work in the engineering organizations. Given the interview bar, it’s difficult and costly to find and hire candidates. Once someone joins your team, your team puts in an investment in ramping that person up. If that person isn’t so effective at the tasks they’ve been assigned, the first step is to identify their strengths and place them in projects or tasks where they can flex those muscles and grow in whatever areas there are gaps.

Now did some team somewhere have a manager who dropped the ball or senior engineers who didn’t come together to help the new hire? Yeah - probably. But that’s not a cultural or systemic problem. That’s a problem with that specific team. And if that’s how that team is run, it’s going to be obvious when they fail to deliver. But yeah, this unfortunate case is what drives outrage and readership (for this paper), and so that’s what you’ll see in the news media.

You're talking in circles a bit. The point the GP was trying to make is there's no real downside to letting employees know they are on FOCUS and that a structured plan in place for tracking, rather than telling employees something vague like their work "needs improving".

It is the most basic level of transparency and just seems like a decent thing to do. For some reason your comments keep avoiding that point. I wonder if this is the effect working at Amazon has on everyone.

That sounds much, much, much more reasonable than what everyone else is assuming.

I disagree, I think this kind of corporate mentality should be stomped out from existence. Employees should have a right to know if they are trending, or are on, a performance improvement plan.

Muddying the waters with corporate speak “your performance is not meeting expectations” is beating around the bush and not saying what is actually happening.

I disagree. If my manager tells me (as you wrote) “your performance is not meeting expectations”, that’s plenty signal that either we are not on the same page (and we need to fix that), or that I need to get my performance up to the bar.

If your manager gives you that feedback, they’ll then tell you specifics and come up with a plan. I don’t think this is “corporate speak” as you put it.

We can formally give this process any name, but it doesn’t change anything.

> If your manager is telling you you’re not meeting expectations, that’s plenty of signal of what’s going on.

Isn't this the part that's not being made transparent to the employee?

Asking the employee to constantly read the manager's mood to guess if you're on the "list" or not is incredibly stressful. What if your manager is just having a bad day?

LOL My manager used to discuss my promotion doc with me, and talk about who we can approach for promotion feedback.

I found out about 'focus' or my 'performance issues' when I resigned from Amazon.

Does it ever happen that the manager puts someone on 'Focus,' their performance improves, and then the manager forgets to take them off of it?

A number of key engineers who I loved working with left my team around the same time, and their departure made me uninterested in continuing on that team any longer. I applied internally to a few other teams, and found out a couple weeks into that process that I was on the devlist when the manager of the team I wanted to join suddenly said he couldn't take me.

Through some backchanneling with a manager I had been friends with before he joined Amazon, I found out I had been placed on the devlist the same week my friends left the team. No performance issues were ever discussed with me, and at that point in my career I'm very confident I didn't have any. I am pretty sure management of my team guessed (correctly) that I would try to leave once my friends were gone, and worried the entire team would implode with additional departures, and all institutional knowledge of a shitty old perl/mason/codigo codebase that needed to be maintained would implode with it. So I am pretty sure they placed me on the devlist purely as a mechanism to make it difficult for me to leave (I would have needed to get the director / L8 level manager of the team I was attempting to join to override the devlist block. this pretty much never happens unless you have a relationship with that person, and I didn't).

I was never able to get a manager in my org to have an open conversation with me about that, despite lots of effort. Lots of hemming and hawing and a few canceled meetings. I was eventually told I was taken off the devlist, but when I again tried to transfer a year later, found out I was still on it. I'm not sure if it was a case of "forgot to take you off" or "lied" and will never know, but that happened to me circa ~2018.

Edit: Unrelated to your question, but I also suspect having been on one of those lists once and escaped makes you a target to get put on again. No manager backchanneling confirmed that for me, it's just an educated guess. My performance suffered for a couple months at the start of the pandemic for obvious reasons, and I was placed on the devlist again (now called "Focus") around late April / early May 2020. I was never told this, nobody ever said the word "Focus", nor was I given any performance coaching. I was only able to infer it because my manager told me "I don't think you should try to change teams right now", and at that point in my Amazon career I knew what that really meant. I started job hunting immediately, kicked my feet up for a while, and took the severance the moment I was finally pip'd. Worked out extremely well for me actually, but a less experienced employee who might not connect the dots between "don't try to change teams ;)" and "your performance is considered below the bar" would have been blindsided.

This sounds even worse than what was stated on the article. But predictable with lack of transparency - management essentially have carte-blanche to maintain their teams.

To be honest, it's quite possible this kind of focus-listing exists elsewhere that's not FAANG level exposure.

This was very similar to my experience. I had a new manager ask me why I was lying to him about the timelines for promotion I had worked out with my previous manager, my skip level, and discussed with my skip skip.

I had optimistically reached out internally and started a process with a team prior to all of this happening. I think my manager focused me then.

I have seen these mechanisms abused by managers to retain talent exactly as you are describing. Guaranteed way to lose talent rather than just let it switch teams. Poorly managed teams should wither if the skip level doesn’t recognize it.

That assumes you were put on the list for performance reasons.

> The discussion in this thread is written more as if Amazon is pushing out capable talent.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they have a stated goal of cutting the bottom 10% every year? I gotta think that can't go on forever without hitting the "capable talent" unless managers are hiring sacrificial lambs on purpose. Hmm, I feel like I've heard about that somewhere...


I’ve only read about that online. I’ve never seen this happen in my six years at Amazon. In my experience we have the opposite problem. There are a lot of folks who are extremely talented in interviewing and whiteboard elegant solutions. But they fundamentally can’t or won’t deliver results. And what I’ve seen on Amazon is it’s really difficult to let go of someone once they are hired. But in my experience a lot of managers struggle at having hard and difficult conversations. And so you’ll see an engineer on the team who doesn’t pull their weight but the rest of the team picks up their slack.

I fundamentally don’t believe that Amazon is letting go of talented engineers. Can some individual manager be terrible at their job and screw up? Yeah absolutely. But as a company, it’s extremely hard to find talented individuals. And then once you bring them in you have to invest in them and ramp them up.

Having said that I worked on really hard problems at Amazon. Not everyone can or wants to solve those kinds of problems. I was successful because I enjoyed it. That’s where my priorities were. And there were other times where I struggled. Sometimes trying to solve a particular kind of problem or sometimes not having enough clarity, or realizing that we haven’t broken down a problem.

But then there are individuals who just don’t have the ownership. If you have a not my problem kind of attitude, I don’t think you’ll last at Amazon very long. Eventually you’ll be let go and then you will be bitter about it.

As an aside, you won’t ever hear about all the engineers at Amazon who enjoy doing their work, who enjoy the teams that they’re on, who have a really good relationship with their leadership teams. But you’ll hear the most loudest and vocal feedback from the people who are the wrong hires or they had a bad manager who messed them up. In the latter case I don’t think it’s a systemic issue. And to be honest, the positive stories don’t get the Readership or drive the outrage

GE was famous for this under Jack Welch?

That is not really an excuse, though. “But Jack did it before” wasn’t even an excuse in pre-school.

And? I was pointing out who was one of the first to pioneer this business practice.

> should be permanent, regardless of your performance?

You're assuming that the tool will only be used objectively and transiently, a big if in a tool with mandated secrecy. The real question is should the tool remain secretive so that people in power can use it completely unchallenged as a weapon against employee?

> “Should I tell an employee that I entered them into Focus?” the question reads. The response: “Do not discuss Focus with employees. Instead, tell the employee that their performance is not meeting expectations, the specific areas where they need to improve, and offer feedback and support to help them improve.”

> “If the employee directly asks, ‘Am I in Focus?’ you should answer honestly,” the response continues. “However, remind the employee that the use of a specific product should not be their take-away from the conversation, as there are important performance gaps they must address.”

That doesn't sound like mandated secrecy. That sounds like they think the employee shouldn't care what the specific product is called.

That sounds like employees who are well-connected enough to know to even ask that question will get more information on their status than people who aren't as extroverted/social/charismatic/privileged.

I've worked for managers who really don't like giving negative feedback, and would only give very obscure hints. The upshot would be that you'd get put on Focus and have no idea you have performance issues.

At most companies, having ever been on such a list is a permanent mark. Any manager can pull up your record and see the whole history.

Thus, any indication that you have got onto such a list is a red warning: find another job somewhere else, and quickly. Do not wait to see if they will change their minds. They might decide not to fire you right away, but they will think of you, forever after, as a "problem employee". If you ever get off the list, you will go back on it the moment the length of your manager's list goes below quota. You may be sure that there is such a quota.

This is very much like the notion of "politically unreliable" in the Soviet countries, and in China. Corporate governance resembles nothing so much as Soviet governance. This is not an accident: Lenin was a huge admirer of the Ford Motor Company.

Being still-employed is a huge factor in how attractive you are to your immediate future employer. So, it is important to act fast. Part of why they try to keep the list secret is that they want to be who controls when you leave, not you. Managers typically only get points for firing you, not you quitting. (But Amazon's documented notion of "unregretted attrition" suggests it might be defined as somebody leaving who was on the list.)

This is very much like the notion of "politically unreliable" in the Soviet countries, and in China. Corporate governance resembles nothing so much as Soviet governance. But one important difference is that the label equivalent to "class enemy" is not hereditary.

Excellent point, though I think the only reason for the hereditary difference is that most corporations don't recruit from a multi-generational population in a fixed location. But I bet there are commercial fishing and logging firms where if the dad was a problem employee, expectations about the son will be correspondingly lowered.

Anyway, in both contexts information asymmetries inevitably exacerbate power differentials; while this is to some extent a fundamental aspect of competition, the denial or posture that such asymmetries exist aims to maximize those power differentials, perhaps allowing them to grow in accordance with power laws rather than linearly (pun semi-intentional).

Amazon is a strange company. After having spent 4 years there I am convinced that they hate their employees. They want you to burnout.

Just look at the stock vesting schedule, its 5, 15, 40, 40. First two years you barely get any stock, and I believe the average time someone stays at amazon is around 1.5 years (I don't have latest data so maybe this is wrong)

On top of that, you have the pathetic 401k match (50% upto 2% of paycheck). Amazon's contribution to 401k vests after 3 years in the job, so you leave within the first 2 and you don't get anything. Not to mention the base salary cap of $160k.

Add to that the horrible WLB, I knew teams who'd get 40 high severity tickets in a week (And there are teams with much worse WLB). You are constantly waking up at 2-3AM in the night, and fixing fires for no extra pay.

Many times, Upper Management would dictate a timeline for your project, doesn't matter if it takes 4 months, we need it in 2 so get it done. This obviously leads to bad code. But there is no incentive within the company to fix/improve codebase, every thing is taped together, and On Call is there to tape things up some more so that they stay fixed. Even if you take the time and fix some of the tech debt, the company is not going to care and its not going to reward you.

Speaking of rewards, if the company stock grows (which it has for the past several years), and because of this growth you stand to make more than your Amazon decided Target Compensation, then you won't get any base salary increase even if you were the best employee Amazon has ever seen. You might get additional stocks, but those will vest 2 year later. So basically, you did great work for the company in 2021, as a result the company stock grows enough that you are not out of range for your role's compensation, so they don't increase your salary, and they give you stocks that vest in 2024, 3 years after the you did the work.

More often than not, I felt that most amazon employees (current and past) hate amazon. I have never seen a company being hated by its own workers with such fervor.

> Speaking of rewards, if the company stock grows (which it has for the past several years), and because of this growth you stand to make more than your Amazon decided Target Compensation, then you won't get any base salary increase even if you were the best employee Amazon has ever seen.

In my experience, this is justification used by many big tech companies. I have worked at a couple now that couched 1% raises with the script about stock gains and, my, look at your RSUs! Don't tell anyone, but you actually have more RSUs than most people at your level. Wink. Just because you didn't get a big raise doesn't mean we don't value you, and it doesn't mean the company is doing poorly either! Everything is great. And look at that, yeah, it's about time for my next one on one. KEep up the good work!

I find this vesting schedule being brought up strange (I see this somewhat frequently). On hiring you get a signing bonus, in my case the value of this bonus made my comp almost flat for those 4 years if the share price remained constant. If anything, this additional cash, which was given each month, was a positive when starting out. Vesting is inherently lumpy, and makes managing cash flow a bit more tricky. I also received base increases despite a very large stock price increase.

On 401k, I'm not in the US so cannot comment.

Your other points around timelines and pages don't match my experience, but I assume that in such a large company they do exist. I have certainly heard of a team where the high sev counts were similar to the numbers you give. Perhaps I am lucky to have missed them, or others are unlucky to have experienced them.

> On hiring you get a signing bonus, in my case the value of this bonus made my comp almost flat for those 4 years if the share price remained constant.

Signing bonus is not unique to Amazon. You can get a signing bonus anywhere in the industry, along with a sane vesting schedule of 25% each year or a front loaded schedule to prevent 4 year cliffs.

> Vesting is inherently lumpy, and makes managing cash flow a bit more tricky.

It doesn't have to be lumpy. Google stocks vest monthly here in US. Also, how is it tricky to manage?

Wow, that 401k match is pathetically low. I'm surprised more number-crunching types don't put an employee group together to advocate for improvement.

>I'm surprised more number-crunching types don't put an employee group together to advocate for improvement.

A union? At Amazon?

The article is conflating two concepts at Amazon. There is "devplan/focus" and there is performance improvement plan (PIP). You are not fired while on focus. Despite what one of the people indicates in their comments, you cannot be on a PIP and not know. The PIP is an agreed upon plan with a specific output between HR, management and the employee. Firing happens through PIPs, not focus. Though focus is what leads to a PIP.

I agree the lack of transparency on the focus is stupid (especially since it can prevent you from moving), but you don't wake up one day and end up fired. You will be put on a PIP first and be well aware of it (since you have to agree to the plan or take a payout to leave instead).

In many companies, the "freeze from moving within company" is the same as PIP.

So Focus is PIP-lite for Amazon.

Is PIP==Pivot

Meanwhile Amazon recruiters keep spamming me to join their cult.

No one *wants* to work for you anymore. You don't need to recruit. If someone is desperate enough they'll let you know.

> No one wants to work for you anymore.

You're in quite the bubble. Lots of folks I know would work at Amazon. Friends have joined the computing groups (Lambda, ECS, EKS) to work on observability, scale, security. It's important work with broad impact.

Yeah my big takeaway from the recent press is that they didn't even think I was good enough to be a patsy to fire. Definitely an ego hit

Have you applied to Amazon? Talking with recruiters who've left it sounded like Amazon incentives were different than other places. So internal recruiters spend more time contacting people already in their system. Sometimes not even doing a basic fit check.

Yeah, I made it to the last round but wasn't given an offer.

I agree, I know tons of people that work for and would love to work from them, and I do not live in WA.

Some of that impact is making the CIA more effective at the things the CIA does, as Amazon runs a special datacenter for them on-prem at Langley.

It is quite sad how many in our industry are either sufficiently clueless or sufficiently indifferent that they would eagerly go work at the CIA's sysadmins, especially under the guise of "important" or "impact" (quite literally in the case I mentioned).

I would be proud to go work directly for the CIA, but I’m too selfish to do so, because the pay would be worse than what I’m doing now.

Not all Americans loath their country and the institutions that help maintain it - imperfect though they may be.

A lot of people use "CIA" to mean "everything bad about the government". I've seen people claiming the CIA started the Iraq War, which they were actually opposed to and the admin had to ignore them to get it going.

No, I just mean the people orchestrating extrajudicial assassinations of US citizens (and others) and operating torture prisons.

They could just mean "the CIA's record, specifically". There's plenty there.

Claiming that things are their historical record leads to fighting the last war and not the next one.

Oh, for christ's sake, it's been like 75 years if you include the OSS.

They're the department with an image of white-collar intelligence collection and a huge sideline in dirty fighting to maintain American hegemony. That's who they are, have been and who they will be.

I'm going to assume ignorance here, versus malice.

You’d be surprised. Do they pay well? Do they have cool products?

“I’ve done a lot more for a lot less” - The Office.

I think a common approach is “I know this job is garbage but if I can last 18 months, my resume will look much better”.....or.....”maybe my manager will be alright and the bad stories will be less relevant”

Another factor might be that there are many companies just as bad, but without the prestige of Amazon. At least the Amazon name will pad your resume. The names of many other bad companies won't (or not to the degree of Amazon).

It's amazing because I've told multiple Amazon recruiters "I don't want to work at Amazon, please make a note so that other Amazon recruiters don't contact me" and it never works. They have a central secret list of employees not to rehire, but when it comes to sourcing they can't get their shit together.

Accept a job, and get paid to be fired and never reached out to again?

You vastly overestimate their competence. I routinely get recruiter calls from companies that have embargoed me for a year due to not succeeding in their interview. They contact me, get a conversation started, then in the middle they apologize and say they didn't realize I'm on the embargo list.

Last time I responded with a polite message that once they treat their non-tech employees better I would consider. Never heard from them again.

For 500k? Yeah I’d do it even for a year, working on the most dullard shit then have 3 years off.

doesnt Amazon cap base salary around $180k and only 5% of RSUs vest the first year? my understanding is that, barring a massive RSU package, you cant get to $500k in the first year.

This isn’t the complete picture. It’s true that the vesting schedule gives you only 5% of RSUs in your first year, but employees’ cash signing bonus is increased to offset that. So if the total compensation target for a role is generally $500k (say, a principal engineer or a director, maybe?) and your salary is capped at $160k, you’d be given a signing bonus of $500k-$160k-(total stock vest x 5%) in cash. It’s not as though you’re paid significantly less when you start, it’s just that how you are paid is different.

I keep hearing all the letters of FAANG have more or less similarly competitive total compensation if you factor in RSUs, appreciation, etc. But then I hear things about "cliffs" and how extremely high TCs are possible only because of stock appreciation.

In that sense, is Netflix basically untouchable in terms of compensation, if F/A/A/G (and other companies like Uber, Lyft, Airbnb, Microsoft, etc.) can only be competitive via unexpected or non-guaranteed stock appreciation?

Plus if you reach a "cliff", you end up with just your base salary - which seems like it's not too much better than a non-tech Fortune500 company?

Is my understanding wrong?

To be absolutely clear, comp is not based on stock appreciation. You get your grant (aka no. of stocks/RSUs) that vest at some cadence. By the time you vest a tranche and share price has increased is an added bonus (though generally people in tech think 4x in 4 years is their birth right.)

As for Netflix, they do give you option of choosing to split your salary every year i.e all cash, all options, some cash and some options as you see fit.

> To be absolutely clear, comp is not based on stock appreciation. You get your grant (aka no. of stocks/RSUs) that vest at some cadence. By the time you vest a tranche and share price has increased is an added bonus (though generally people in tech think 4x in 4 years is their birth right.)

This depends on the company. My understanding is that Amazon does keep stock price in mind when doing vesting of stock. If your personal projected comp is above the "intended" level (due to a large share price increase), your stock award in a given year will be smaller.

So your stock vest in year 3 might be smaller because growth was high (or your initial offer was above-market). Google and Facebook don't do this. Each year is modeled independently. Microsoft also models years independently afaik, but their stock vests slightly differently.

When you negotiate with amazon they do try to bring stock appreciation into it. It went like this:

I asked for X comp, say 100K total for 4 years, including stock. The recruiter calls me back, says she got the total I wanted, I write down the numbers and it totals to 90K. I ask her why the math does not check out and the answer was that the 'missing' 10K is the projected stock growth.

Haven't seen anything like that in other negotiations.

This is particular to amazon and is a dick move any way you put it.

Is the added bonus of increased share price required for the comp to be similar to an all-cash Netflix comp though?

Or is it still competitive without taking such appreciation into account?

I think still competitive without the appreciation. Amazon is the only employer which takes appreciation into account. Most others don't.

Please correct me if I am wrong here.

I think the idea is that you'd only reach a cliff if someone decided to cut off the periodic RSU grants, and at that point you should probably have been interviewing elsewhere because they probably want you gone?

I wouldn’t want to work at a place like Netflix that doesn’t comp with equity, especially after a year like 2020. A 500k TC could easily be 800k+ now, if that’s cash it’s still 500k and worth less due to inflation.

If the stock significantly depreciates there will be layoffs anyway.

Beauty of cash is that you can do whatever you want with it. For example, buy Netflix shares. Or buy Alphabet shares. Maybe Apple. That way you can both benefit from upside and somewhat protect from downside of your own employer's shares tanking all the while you're getting laid off (as you're suggesting).

The funny thing about cash is that you can use it to buy equity. Who knows, maybe you’ll even learn to diversify by investing in areas uncorrelated to your line of work

It’s equivalent if the cash bonus is paid up front or at the beginning of 2020 when the employee starts. So 200k base and 300k signing bonus.

I _thought_ Netflix comps with a cash salary and if that’s the case it’s worth less than equity. The salary depreciated over the course of 2020 while an equity grant would have appreciated from the start.

We can’t base everything on 2020 though. My stock portfolio absolutely skyrocketed in 2020 beyond imagination. But it has remained mostly stagnant in 2021.

Would cash+equity comp still be preferable to an all cash Netflix comp in that case?

I guess the gist of my question is:

Non-Netflix FAANG level company salary + stock without appreciation >= Netflix all-cash salary?

Read my above comment.

Thanks for clarifying

Cash bonus is taxed at a much higher rate, isn't it?

No it’s just income on your w2 same as rsus and salary. You’re thinking of long term cap gains which is entirely different matter

Bonus fits into the category of "supplemental wages" which Google suggests has a special 22% tax rate. However that rate also apparently applies to RSUs most of the time.

> Bonus fits into the category of "supplemental wages" which Google suggests has a special 22% tax rate. However that rate also apparently applies to RSUs most of the time.

This 22% tax rate is the default rate applied by your RSU brokerage which often leaves you owing taxes to the IRS. IRS treats RSU at vesting as regular income. For the tax purposes it is same as if you received their equivalent in cash and then used it to purchase the same number company shares [0].

[0] https://www.cordantwealth.com/rsus-tax-saving-and-hedging/

This is a “withholding rate” (how much tax your employer will deduct from your paycheck) not an actual tax rate that you will owe

Nope. When your RSUs vest, their value at the time of vesting is added to your W-2 income, and gets taxed at regular income.

they give you a signing bonus, paid out over time, to make up for the difference in total comp in the first two years

If you leave in less than a year, don't you have to return the signing bonus as well?

There are plenty of other employers that pay that and more and aren’t Amazon. Amazon typically lowballs.

If anything you only benefit from being in Washington and not paying half of that 500k in income tax:

Other Big-N companies have comparable pay with way less stress.

What I see being touted is F & N > G > A & A for TC?

Obviously there are many factors in play so that might not always be the case.

Also per my other comment on this thread, sounds like Netflix really blows away all others because there is no shenanigans around RSUs, cliffs, unexpected appreciation, etc.? Correct me if I'm wrong since I am definitely no expert at this game.

This is probably true, but socially Apple seems like it gets a better reception/superior people. Folks at Amazon are pretty normal.

Disclaimer - I’m very average and work at Amazon

Not sure if this is the reason, but I've heard Apple (and also Netflix) give individual teams much more autonomy on how they select, interview, and hire candidates, so maybe the fit between each person and their team is better? i.e. you may even not get leetcoded depending on the team and hiring manager.

Versus Facebook, Amazon, and Google having a more one-size-fits-all approach to hiring.

Amazon, until recently, also hired most SDE2 and up with a team specific approach, with the SDE1's effectively interviewed by an algorithm (via coding interview etc).

Yes Im probably average and I’d go with whoever takes me, but as I’m outside of the US it’s all hypothetical

HN isn’t the world. Amazon recruiters get tons of positive responses to their reachouts.

> Instead, tell the employee that their performance is not meeting expectations, the specific areas where they need to improve, and offer feedback and support to help them improve.

As long you are effectively communicating performance on a regular basis, I don't really see the point in telling an employee that "we're formally thinking about firing you" other than dropping a morale bomb in the workplace. If you're telling an employee that their performance needs improvement in general, it stands to follow that termination is a possible result.

Either people improve when they're told their performance is bad, or they don't. Workplaces without formal PIPs don't tell employees to their face that they're thinking about firing them either. Not sure why the formal paperwork makes any difference.

Although maybe I'm missing something, I've never worked at a mega-corp.

I worked as a manager in a mega-corp. One of tricks I was told by other managers is to put your best employees on the ‘focus’ list (grade 3) so they cannot leave for a better position/team in the company. But they would get bonuses because the bonuses were per team and HR was not aware who gets what.

Of course the ‘focus’ list was a secret list :)

Thats evil. Blind is littered with posts of amazon employees who are mentally destroyed. It's ok to put on pip for genuine performance issues, but why destroy those who are performing well.

Other companies, including where I work, are able to lock employees to teams by requiring manager approval to interview and move internally.

I would be very surprised if this isn’t a common occurrence throughout many organizations.

The parent comment mentioned why: to extract the absolute maximum amount of work you can from this employee. As you said, evil.

I have a very simple rule that I adopted when I first became a manager, and it has served me well. I won't ever fire someone for performance unless I have explicitly said to them. `If you don't do the following things in the given time frame you will be fired` I require myself to explicitly state they will loose their job, and I require to have an explicit list of exactly what needs to be done and a fixed time frame for it to be done. I feel if I as a manager can't do that, then the real issue is a failure in management not a failure in the employee.

While I have still had to fire plenty of people for performance even with this rule. I can also say that I have had multiple people actually improve their performance and get off the PiP which as I understand from talking to other managers is not a common occurrence.

What happens if an Employee of Amazon who is in a country that has a data regulation that allows them to ask for and legally get any data pertaining too them?

That would place Amazon to legally disclose if such an employee is on any list or anything else they have on them, be it paper or digital.

Managers are required to disclose focus/devlist status if asked directly. But they're not supposed to tell you without you asking. At least not until you get your PIP papers.

Based on a few anecdotes, managers do not disclose even if the employee asks directly. Apparently managers actively sabotage the employee by telling others to not collaborate with the person on Focus.

So many employees find out by either attempting an internal transfer, or getting PIP papers served.

Focus/PIP is a lot harder in Europe for this reason, among better labour protection laws

I've never seen anyone on a PIP bounce back. The smart move is to start your job hunt immediately when you discover you're on a PIP. Otherwise it's a long and stressful road to termination.

The second the people around you don't believe you can cut it, it's already too late and best to find a gig elsewhere.

I had a PIP at a startup when six months in and several years later I'm the lead now.

I saved my job by working during my ~two day vacation (and weekend) and building a bunch of things that I had talked with the non-eng cofounder about that weren't on the official roadmap but that had high value.

Turned out the way engineering was organized wasn't very compatible with me (didn't take advantage of my product sense and generally was focusing too much on reviewing things in code that really didn't matter.)

One of the people above me on the org chart (VP Engineering) lost his job instead. The lead at the time is now CTO and around that time adjusted the org to better match how I like to work.

I suspect that kind of story is more common at small companies still trying to define a path forward (or with inconsistent management philosophies).

Still, impressive turnaround.

I have. I went from being PIPed after my first year due to not getting along with my team, to being nominated for Yahoo!'s Super Star award (the highest honor in the company) a year later. People can and do turn around when they are mentored with care and the will to succeed.

To be the odd man out, I do actually know someone who did and managed to later on advance in his career within the company. We shared a particularly bad manager who was forced out of the company himelf while he was on the PIP, so possibly special circumstances.

Amazon workers should unionise, then collectively every single employee asks their boss “morning boss, am I on the list” every single day. They’ll soon change the policy.

Are performance improvement plans actually genuine in most cases? If I were put on one or got a negative performance review, I would assume that I have essentially been fired but my boss is waiting on key paperwork.

My experience at Amazon was as soon as someone knew they were on a PIP, they went out and got another job. It's much easier to get a job when you are currently employed, and your PIP doesn't show up in any background checks so it was basically a "please leave or we will make you leave"

Yeah, this would be how I would react to any formal notification about issues with my performance. I would take it as a kind kick out the door.

They certainly can be.

I know multiple cases of bad managers who never clearly communicated job expectations/prioritization and then put employees on a PIP because they weren't meeting their hidden/secret expectations.

The beautiful thing about a PIP is that it forces a manger to spell out in excruciating detail what expectations are, and how meeting them will be measured.

Once an employee knows what they are concretely, it can make it really easy to meet them, and then no more PIP.

In all the cases I know, the employees went on to get "exceeds expectations" and then either left the manager or left the company, because the problem was always the manager.

Also, because many times you "game the PIP" -- to meet the explicit expectations you slack off on the stuff that you know matters more to doing a good job, but that isn't being explicitly measured. Write shitty code but deliver the features on-time, and let someone else deal with the bugs.

Of course I've heard of PIP's being intentionally vague so a manager can arbitrarily continue to say expectations weren't met no matter what -- but I've never seen that anywhere I've worked.

If your manager has been clearly communicating his displeasure with your performance, then a PIP is really just a signal that you need to leave. If I didn't see eye to eye with a manager all this time, his putting me on a PIP isn't going to suddenly make me change. Conversely, if I accepted his criticism earlier, I would have already changed and not received a PIP.

Of course, if there are bad actors involved, it's a whole other story.

I recently left my employer after about an year and half. I was on the edge of a PIP - so I thought - and constantly felt like an imposter. Making it past the year-mark surprised me.. and it was getting better when I quit. My manager would insist on the bi-weekly 1:1s that I was not on a PIP.

In comparison, I can only imagine what a hell Amazon must be, a soul-destroying place to work for most people who aren't in the top 25% or something like that. As an employer, Amazon sounds like an evil machine.

> Amazon instructs managers not to tell office employees that they are on a formal performance-management plan that puts their job in jeopardy unless the employee explicitly asks, according to guidance from an Amazon intranet page for managers.

Wait, what's the point of putting someone on a PIP/PMP if you don't even tell them their performance needs to improve (or they need to jump ship)?

They aren't likely to change if you don't tell them to change.

Luckily that isn’t what the internal document says. It says not to go into the Focus tool, and refocus (heh) the conversation on the areas needing improvement.

Amazon and places like Amazon can go to hell. Life is too short to work in such shitty places. Ultimately everyone is just working to make investors and owners rich. Employees will only earn a fraction of what higher ups earn even after working themselves to death. Having worked in such an environment, I will be honest that I have earned and progressed more than I would have had I stayed in that shitty toxic workplace.

The whole point is to absolve the actual workers of any type of non-negligible ownership, while simultaneously retaining their excess labor value, and whenever this is questioned point to a homeless person threateningly.

One way I look at this all though is do you honestly believe there are not ~5% of employees at your company that really aren’t cutting it and shouldn’t be there? I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a place in my career where that was the case… and often the number that should go was usually higher. Thus at some level is Amazon not just solving a problem (albeit probably imperfectly) that other companies just choose to ignore?

Most successful companies I know are constantly recruiting and trying to keep people onboard - why would they be trying to actively get rid of people?

>why would they be trying to actively get rid of people?

It's extremely demoralizing to work with people who are bad at their job. It makes me feel as though my hard work is unappreciated, because someone who is not working hard gets the same treatment.

Sometimes the employee is slacking off, sometimes they are bad at their job. Either way, if their failure to contribute is bringing the rest of the team down, they have to go. Otherwise, the good people leave to get away from the bad people.

> It's extremely demoralizing to work with people who are bad at their job.

You're assuming various PIPs are being used in good faith by the employer. In a lot of big companies there's a nebulous and hand-wave-y criteria for putting someone on a PIP and then there's no clear path for the employee off the PIP. Too often PIPs are like "mean girl" shit lists. You can get on one without knowing it and have little to no agency in getting off one.

For companies that do stack ranking, you can end up on a PIP just for happening to be at the bottom of the stack for no real fault of your own. The employer is then happy to dick you with compensation for as long as they can justify keeping you on a PIP.

It's more demoralizing to end up black balled and screwed over on compensation than just being told outright you're on a PIP and there's some particular goals to hit to get off. Not everyone can just jump ship after they get stiffed on compensation after a review. The goal is to demoralize people so they quit so they don't have to fire them and potentially end up with some wrongful termination lawsuit.

I have encountered co-workers who bring a clear negative contribution to the team. I am not taking of not making enough of a value for the company for what they are paid but rather damaging the company even if they were paid nothing. These people have all been eventually let go by the different companies I have worked for.

That would be true. However, the word excellence, especially in IT companies is a relative term at best. We have seen others in this forum refer to Amazon's work as fixing broken code that's hardly maintainable. Hardly what one would call 'excellence' particularly given how exalted a position Amazon occupies as a desirable employer.

You could have a bunch of OOPs-fanatics who will hate the functional programmer who does things differently. Toxic culture (lack of self-awareness means that 99% of people don't know they are participating/creating/perpetuating the toxicity) means this functional programmer is demoralizing the team.

That's how objective IT is. Its culture wars of this sort - misplaced fanatic sincerity and close-mindedness, or worse mean-ness. And its demoralizing to the majority. Hence the PIP. Its like a dystopian landscape.

> We have seen others in this forum refer to Amazon's work as fixing broken code that's hardly maintainable.

Reminds me of someone that worked at a vendor of Semiconductor ATE equipment. The codebase was a total hopeless trash fire. Watching him flail and fail gave me the impression that working for a place like that, actually caring about anything is a liability.

You should only care about three things. Your mental health. The money you are making. What your boss wants. You should treat anything you are working on as a booger to get rid of as quickly as possible.

'As you are closing the ticket you may feel a sting. That's pride fucking with you'

So many companies I deal with have extremely poor management teams and practices. Things like stack-ranking, vague job descriptions/responsibilities, managers who aren't technical, the list is endemic to IT.

You want demoralizing? How about being an excellent employee, but being told that you can only get a COLA raise because your manager has been told only 2 out of a team of 15 can "exceed standards?" And these standards are as vague as HR can possibly make them.

So unless you're sociopathic, you try to "improve" which generally means kissing up to your boss. Doing a better job revolves around keeping your boss happy, regardless of whether that means your real work is being done at an "exceeds" level. Find out what metrics he considers important, and focus almost exclusively on them.

If you're sociopathic, you do this, while sabotaging your coworkers. It's pretty easy to do; keep important information away from them, point out any flaws/mistakes they make, etc.

Any large organization will end up like this if they follow traditional HR guidelines for performance evals. It's part of a competitive environment.

The only place I've seen it work better/differently was when the entire team was evaluated. That helped prevent the Machiavellian sabotage, but did allow lower performers to benefit from the work of the higher performers. But that would happen anyway; you can't fire everyone. And the motivation of the coworkers shifts from competitive to cooperative. Helping others learn new things, overcome issues, etc. When management gets behind this, it's amazing, but most managers and executives are discouraged from trying new things.

> why would they be trying to actively get rid of people?

It's the same idea behind stack ranking: get good recruits, while getting rid of the under-performers who either slip-through, or whose performance deteriorated while on the job.

Amazon would like to think they are keeping the good people onboard and throwing out the deadwood.

that is for companies without the recruit demand. Amazon has stated before they try to remove the bottom 10% regularly to keep the average performance moving up

Didn't decades of that policy at Microsoft prove that it doesn't work? People then optimize to make sure they only work on projects to keep their score up.

Optimizing for projects is just one of the unintended consequences of a policy of "get rid of the bottom X%".

There are many others such as,

- "Hire to fire" https://archive.is/3Bdv7

- Overworking of employees, especially the ones who are on H1B / L1 visa since they are dependent on Amazon for their visa status.

- Code is written and architected with promotions in mind.

- Code is reviewed with bring others down since comments on code reviews are considered a negative metric.

- No one trusts their manger.

> Didn't decades of that policy at Microsoft prove that it doesn't work? People then optimize to make sure they only work on projects to keep their score up.

So? It's the kind policy that appeals to the prejudices of an aloof executive with a low opinion of his peons. That trumps facts.

Basic math too.

Suppose “ability” is normally distributed in the population and in your initial team too. Replace people when the new candidate improves the team’s median ability (supposedly what Amazon’s “Bar Raiser” checks).

I kicked together a simulation of this process. The first replacement is pretty easy (50/50), but the hundredth hire on a team of ten often takes tens of thousands of interviews, and sometimes over a million. No one is literally doing this.

How many years does it take a team of 10 to get to their 100th hire? If they only replace 1 person a year, ~100 interviews a year sounds pretty normal to me (it actually sounds low compared to where I last worked where I sometimes interviewed multiple people a day).

I should have pointed out that it's literally an exponential growth, so it'll be fine for a while until, suddenly, it isn't.

It's also very vulnerable to "founder effects" if the teams are small: a few geniuses early on make it nearly impossible to hire someone new.

Would love to see this code if you don't mind sharing.

Mostly interested on how you even create a simulation like this.

Mine is super-dumb, but let me walk you though it.

First, you need to a way to generate candidates of varying abilities. There are all sorts of tough questions related to measuring intelligence, but let's side-step those and make something like IQ. By construction, IQ is normally distributed with a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 15.

    function generate_candidates(;n=1)
        return 100 .+ (15 .* randn(n, 1))
With that, make the initial team and find the "bar" for a new hire:

    team = generate_candidates(;n=10)
    bar = median(team)
To replace a candidate, you just sit in a loop, "interviewing" candidates until one exceeds the bar.

    candidates_seen = 1
    while (new_candidate = generate_candidates(n=1)[1]) < bar
        candidates_seen += 1
Once you find that person, you kick someone out of the team and replace them with the new candidate. I did it at random, but eliminating the lowest performer only exaggerates the effect.

    team[rand(1:length(team))] = c
Having done that, you need to recalculate the now-raised bar:

     bar = median(team)
We repeat this process a small number of times to simulate turn-over within a team. Since it's random, you want to repeat the entire process a number of times too. Complete code: https://gist.github.com/mrkrause/e33c589b901b4b8c96f940ea0a4...

I had a hunch this process would be exponential, and it certainly looks that way if you plot the results. This was meant as a quick-and-dirty way to check that: there are some tricks that might speed up the simulation and it might even be possible to do the whole thing analytically (but it's Friday afternoon).

FWIW, I highly highly recommend this sort of noodling around for building intuitions. At work, we recently spent a year and $$$ collecting some brain data, and a dumb model like this was the key to figuring out what was going on.

The model might work better if you assume an increasing median among the population of candidates over time. This could be true if:

* Amazon's stock price and profits made it a more desirable place to work over time

* The increasing supply of computer science graduates improved the hiring pool

Another thing that could happen is the most skilled x% of each team leaves over time for better positions, so that the median slips back. Then raising the bar each time only keeps it in the same place.

Or candidates could be rated on multiple dimensions, so while you can't find someone uniformly better than your median employee, you can hire one person to raise the bar on build systems, one on microservices, and so on.

    function generate_candidates(;n=1)
        return 100 .+ (15 .* randn(n, 1))
How does this yield a Gaussian distribution?

`randn` returns draws from a standard normal distribution (i.e., a Gaussian with mean 0 and standard deviation 1); the n is for normal.

It's then stretched to have an SD of 15 via multiplication, and shifted to have a mean of 100.

This is Julia, but it's the same in Matlab and Numpy (np.random.randn); it'd be rnorm in R (which also lets you specify the mean and sd directly).

Ah, thanks, I was reading it as "random number."

These are all echoes of General Electric's / Jack Welch's stack-ranking 'innovation' which still gets lauded by MBA types but has been a disaster everywhere it was implemeneted.

Managers with good teams may bypass this by partaking in a "hire to fire" scheme where the newest joiner is guaranteed to be at the bottom of the performance list, shielding those with longer tenure.

This works for a while - until word gets around, then you find your hiring funnel drying up.

Where did they state that?

There’s a Heisenberg principle at play here as anybody that knows they’re on the thin ice is going to respond to that knowledge in some way.

I mean this in all sincerity: don't treat an Amazon interview seriously. If you must, use it for practice.

Employment stability is much more important than what I call "alleged compensation".

They hire you promising $160,000 base and all this stock, and 6 months into stringing broken libraries together you are suddenly getting the feeling you won't be welcome at the company anymore.

Amazon compensates for backloaded equity via large sign-on bonuses which "vest" monthly and don't need to be paid back if you leave. Annualized compensation is roughly stable over the first four years, assuming you believe their stock growth estimates (which are silly, but that actually gives you higher compensation for the first two years than years 3 and 4, not lower).

Assuming you last at Amazon and are not hire to fire and can navigate safely through their codebase and you have a good manager and...

I've had my fair share of good and bad gigs-- I am willing to trade a considerable amount of Amazon's upside in exchange for employment I can predict.

Sure, I'm not saying anything about the culture or WLB, just that there's no risk of "losing out" on compensation if you get fired before your backloaded equity vests.

Wait, what? I'm actually genuinely interested in clarifying this for myself.

If Amazon gives me a contract on day one that says they will give me 5 shares on day one, 15 shares on day 366, 40 shares on day 732, and 40 shares on day 1098...

... you are saying that even if i get fired on day 90, i will still have all 100 shares paid out to me on those days?

because that is not how it worked at other places ive been at

No, Amazon structures its compensation such that you get a large cash "bonus" split up monthly over your first two years to offset the backloaded compensation. A senior (L6/SDE III) offer might look something like this:

160k base salary

350k sign-on (195k first year, 145k second year, split up monthly)

120 shares (@ 3720/share): 6 shares Y1, 18 shares Y2, 48 shares Y3 & Y4 (24 shares vesting every 6 months at that point)

So in the first year you're taking home 160k base salary + 16.25k bonus each month, none of which needs to be paid back if you leave.

I had an ex that was in all honesty was a horrible employee. I feel bad for anyone that ever worked with her. She was always qualified for the job but a nightmare doing actual work. She came to me with some project that her boss asked her to work on looking for advice. This Fortune 500 company was asking her, as a software engineer, to create an Excel spreadsheet budget for her next project. I honestly helped her to the best of my ability (it actually wasn’t half bad haha) but they ended up firing her within a few weeks. They were just looking for a final project to show in plain view that she couldn’t do what was asked of her.

Anecdotal but… I suppose they could be protecting themselves from these situations where once they have made up their mind, it’s probably in their best interest to see their everyday work ethic. I think most of us would like the chance to know whether they are doing a good job to improve, but this sounds like once they are on this list, their days are numbered

There are many types of PIPs, and Amazon seems to be trying a new flavor. This one seems to be about managers focusing (hence the name) on floundering employees, giving them the attention they need to get back ok track. And maybe telling the employee "you're getting extra attention" could make them pessimistic and less able to be improved. It's a good theory, anyway. We'll see if it works out.

Of course the other, darker possibility is that this is an attempt to take the evil parts of the PIP and get rid of the actual improvement. Keep the "build a case against the employee so we can fire them without a lawsuit", ditch the "actually trying to improve their performance". I prefer to think this isn't the case.

> Keep the "build a case against the employee so we can fire them without a lawsuit", ditch the "actually trying to improve their performance"

I'm less optimistic. I see two main uses for PIPS.

1) 3rd parties usually get involved in communicating the performance issues and expectations.

2) It explicitly documents failures if an employee doesn't improve.

I'm assuming employees usually only pass the PIP if communication is the major issue. But a manager should communicate performance concerns before starting an official PIP process. I'm not confident that a well intentioned PIP process will lead to a large minority of employees passing it.

Documenting failures only helps in firing someone. It isn't a benefit to the individual engineer.

Re. the darker possibility becomes the bias, since the organization (maybe due to its size), with its focus on success, has a low tolerance for an employee who is struggling.

What about double secret probation?

Can anyone explain how this is not a breach of employment law? It reads like an on-the-face-of-it constructive dismissal case: if your manager has future intent to sack you, has no intention of helping you improve, is kpi rewarded for sacking you for reasons which don't actually relate to your performance and doesn't inform you of your status, surely it's premeditated?

I don't understand how H/R and legal can sustain this. (I do understand that they have: I'm not that stupid. So there must be some underlying reason this is legal, but I suspect it's not well "tested" in all jurisdictions Amazon employs in)

In the US, the burden of proof in constructive dismissal cases lies with the employee. How are you going to prove that you were placed on a secretive PIP list without your knowledge?

That's just so wrong. It suggests to me the 10% kill list can't be done in Europe or Australia for instance, unfair dismissal law would (I honestly believe) empower asking for the list in the court action. Given this list is known to exist the presumption of evidence is really strong and lying or hiding the list would be a serious offence.

> That's just so wrong

I want to be clear I mean I disagree with this policy which is self evidently true, not that I dispute what I replied to. Colloquial English can be misread so easily.

I assume this doesn't go on in the UK, as it would fail to meet the ACAS code on performance management, and likely lead to successful constructive dismissal or unfair dismissal claims.

"If issues do arise, employers should make the employee aware of the shortfall in their performance as soon as possible. The employee should then be given a reasonable timescale to improve.

Employers should provide their employee with any relevant support and training in order to reach the required performance standard. They should then monitor and review the employee’s progress throughout the period assigned for improvement."

Obvious irony here is that someone in management failed to keep secret what was supposed to be a secret plan about keeping secret perf man plans. Management should put themselves on a performance management plan.

That Amazon or any company has such a plan is actually laudable. I was under the impression that folks who are not performing just get given a 2-week notice. But it's likely more profitable to rehabilitate or retrain an underperforming employee than to go through the process of hiring and onboarding a new employee. None of this is out of altruism -- it's a cost benefit analysis (see also the scene in the Fight Club movie where the un-named narrator explains the math behind his company issuing a recall or not...)

Sure, if they were only targeting poor performing folks then your statement has merit. The difference is at amazon managers have a 5-10% URA (Unregretted Attrition Rate) and must let go that percentage of their team each and every year. Doesn't take long to chew through poor performers and have to move on to people lower on the political totem pole, or worse at playing the political game/being friendly.

The bigger problem is that it discourages formation of high performance teams. The high performers know to stay away from established high performance teams because they risk getting cut

this sounds suspiciously like something a organization theory / game theory team thought up. Incidentally, we know that amazon hires such people from math and econ departments for big bucks.

Attrition is good for exploration and against other "stagnation" phenomena (textbook March/Levinthal early 90's). And if you are willing to throw aboard any ethics, then a "usable period" (pre burn-out) for some percentage of workers is a pretty good boost to performance.

A secret focus list is probably some "well" thought out mechanism (as in mechanism design) tuned precisely to kick out x% of people while setting incentives to self-identify (slackers vs. normal workers vs. workaholics) by generating uncertainty or ambiguity, thus generating some ideal workforce distribution: people who are doubtful are incentivized to just leave right away, people who are extremely competent are moderately pressured, people who are willing to grind themselves into dust for amazon do "okay" for as long as they are useful, and "normals" are retained probabilistically to the degree that their contributions are needed that quarter.

Much has been written about how these models don't reflect human behavior. Sadly, as a normative forcing function, they work out just fine. edit: in the short run, until such articles as op appear

I'm curious if any Amazon (ex-)employee have experience with this that they can share.

A lot of Amazon's practices get really severe backlash online, and yet if working for Amazon is as bad as they say, how is Amazon one of the biggest employers of software engineers?

I personally buy into the hivemind and would not work for Amazon, but it seems to me like there is an incongruity between how bad their practices are and how many talented software engineers are willing to work for them.

Sure, I work at Amazon. Amazon's HR principles get vilified in the press. I'm not going to claim they are all perfect, but most of these principles presents a position on an interesting tradeoff. Let's focus on the unregretted attrition (URA) notion. Isn't firing 5% a year really high? What about teams of top performers?

I promise if you look around at a team of 20 people, there's a high chance one of them is not very good. If you DON'T have a URA target in place, managers may let these low performers stay, especially since firing people is actually quite difficult. This leads to what Bezos would call "Day 2" culture. It's hard to overstate how much damage a single person can cause to a team's output or morale.

If you look at Amazon's implementation, it's really not that bad. If you have a superstar team of 10 people under one manager, great, the 5% is resolved at the 50-100 person level, so make a case and keep your team. Or even better, hire some junior engineers so your superstars can lead and teach others. Some of those junior engineers will be bad; others will be great. This isn't hire to fire, rather, hiring is noisy. What if the whole 50 person org is amazing? Umm, this is just statistically unlikely. Everybody I've personally noticed leave after PIP has been, in my estimation, a poor performer.

Amazon has one single HR policy that is amazing: you can change teams any time for any reason (unless you're on a performance plan). If your team sucks, get out! I've been able to land on teams with good WLB, smart coworkers, and fun, interesting, meaningful projects -- except for my first team, which I left after 2 months.

Lastly, of course there are tons of anecdotal stories from people with miserable experiences at Amazon. Can we at least accept Amazon is a massive employer, and these are bound to happen?

How about acting in good faith and genuinely try to make the low performers perform better?

There's always a reason some people don't perform well and its very very rare that the reason for this is something inherent in them.

What makes Amazon employees so eager to work there? Is it purely because of their salaries? I have worked at large companies where none of this dystopian stuff happens.

There are teams building cool things, used by large customers, where you're paid decently.

It's not really all that dystopian.

Thanks for the info. I come across more and more of these articles that paint a grim picture of Amazon's engineering departments. But as an outsider I get the feeling that's it's better than your average mid sized startup where you will be lucky to make 1/3 of what an Amazon engineer makes, while working more hours and getting your performance reviewed by equally sociopathic middle managers. I still wonder how it compares to other FAANG companies though.

I think Amazon is not as bad as people harp on. However, other FAANG's definitely pay more, have better benefits, give refreshers, and also don't have a culture which heavily emphasizes PIPs.

Since Amazon interviews are similar to other FAANGs, people who pass an Amazon interview have a higher correlation of passing other interviews. Those FAANGs and associated companies tend to have a higher value proposition so people tend to choose them.

I think there may be some who appreciate certain idealized notions of the company’s operations and competence in engineering and logistics. Few other companies could offer the same mix of software and real-world engineering at scale.

Makes absolutely no sense. The main point of a PIP is to give people time to make a graceful exit; sure, in some cases performance can be turned around but that’s not really what it is about. So you should want the employee to know. Supposedly Bezos is going to be focusing on making Amazon a great place to work; here’s some low-hanging fruit for you Jeff.

There is some rationale for this, as why tip an at-risk employee off to what is essentially a foregone conclusion?

Napkin math, if your salary is $100k/year - you are necessarily delivering at least $200k in revenue/value, so if you have a rough 6-month stretch, as an asset you are under water. At that point you are a liability and unless someone else can deliver on the other part of that expected $200k value, the opportunity cost is harming the company.

The point of a PIP is to create a paper trail to protect the company from incurring further costs and liability risk, so as a purely post-decision defensive strategy, it makes sense to not disclose it. The laws make it such that everyone has to sustain the fiction that a PIP is in earnest, which creates that creepy gaslighting feeling. The supreme irony is keeping it secret could mean a more personally honest and less psychologically harmful relationship for all involved.

Reality is, performance in most organizations is secondary to relationships in them (and perhaps credentials) because the reason a (profitable/long-lived) company makes money as a business is because it can operate at scale with interchangeable parts that get along, which means the marginal value of a high or low performer is not as significant to its bottom line as downside risks from a lack of cohesion, so the main thing you need to care about in an organization is your key relationships.

If your relationship with co-workers or managers is getting dicey, all you can do is "read the room," keep your CV updated, and your recruiter contacts warm, because unless you deliver some large multiple on performance (product breakthrough they need you to execute, or land a large client, etc), opinion-wise you're done there and it's time to move on.

> The point of a PIP is to create a paper trail to protect the company from incurring further costs and liability risk, so as a purely post-decision defensive strategy, it makes sense to not disclose it. The laws makes it such that everyone has to sustain the fiction that a PIP is in earnest, which creates that creepy gaslighting feeling. The supreme irony is keeping it secret could mean a more personally honest and less psychologically harmful relationship for all involved.

Are you from the USA?

'tip an at-risk employee'? Are we talking about a person who's not doing a good job at his job, or a suspect in murder deemed as a flight risk?


This is a company that is enjoying roaring success with such questionable employee management practices. How does this happen? Does success have no correlation with bad culture? If yes, why are other companies focusing their time and energy on good work/employee culture? What gives?

Maybe the case is that "bad" culture (i.e. culture that is bad for employees but good for employers) can "work" (i.e. make the company money) for a little while. And that's all the time that it needs to work for, if you have short-term goals like creating a virtual monopoly. Then you can relax and reform you image afterwards, which is fine with you because you already have everyone's business anyway, and they're not going to go elsewhere.

>> But some workers who have been on Focus say they were never told what their performance deficiencies were, or how they could improve.

Sounds like therapy. Doesn't really work most of the time. You can't invoke your higher level brain functions without knowing the game being played.

What are the effects of this list/Focus on employee? The article mentions performance hell but at the same time says people don’t know they are on the list so they probably don’t really feel the effects?

Or is it slower promotion less bonuses that are somehow not obvious?

It's the step before a PIP. And they're blocked from switching teams in most cases. Even when team fit is the real problem.

Which manager came up with this brainwave of an idea to make themselves appear useful?

It's probably an interpretation of why Bezos wants (he's been quoted as thinking workers are lazy by default).

So it's from the top.

> The secrecy surrounding performance management is one more reason why some Amazon office employees say the company is not living up to its April pledge to become “Earth’s Best Employer.”

Rules for corporations:

Actions > Words

Rules for politicians:

Policies > Rhetoric

Why people go to work to places that treat engineers like some farm animals?

Zero respect to the craft. Plus the company is avoiding taxes, so everyone gets paid less thanks to that.

As far as I know... nobody at Amazon when I was there got taken off "Focus" (whatever it was called in the past). They only ended up leaving the company.

But that said, I think Amazon had a very long interview process. Too long. (But I hear it's gotten better.) And so to grow fast, they need an easy way to exit people... that's not a bad thing.

Interviews are never a great way to hire people. Working with them tells you a lot more about personality and work ethic and commitment.

From what I've seen, I don't disagree with any of the employees that had been on Focus. Like generally speaking, we showed the people the door who needed to be shown the door.

For the good of the team, some people just don't fit, or they distract... a lot of it was personality, but a lot of it was really they were lacking the Ownership quality we needed.

If you have someone waiting for 12-levels of approval, they just slow down the others. I don't know quite how to say it, but it was a common thing you'd get someone from a big company... and they had various processes in mind when doing anything. We need that "Bias for Action" instead of anyone just looking to do things the way they did them at past jobs.

Or we had a guy who thought, "We're Amazon, we print money... let's just solve all our problems by throwing money at them." Oof. Amazon is, silly as it sounds, a startup at scale. And their Leadership Principles really speak to this.

Some people just don't get it.


Anyway, my 2 cents, as a former Amazon employee... It's good for any company -- especially one that wants to grow fast -- to exit about 5-10% of their workforce every year. Find the ones that aren't doing what's needed... and encourage them to go work somewhere else where they can add value. I never saw anyone bullied, I never saw anyone put on "Focus" who shouldn't have been there.

Playing devil's advocate... given so few people get off "Focus" plans, what's the point of letting people know they are on it? Kind of just seems like a waste of everyone's time. Some conversations just burn hours, no?

AMZN is Doomed :)

"The Tomorrow War" is not an Amazon movie, they only bought the distribution rights. It's a Paramount Pictures film.

They sure are making buckets of money on it though

Did you mean to post this here? I think you commented on the wrong topic :)

changed the comment :)

As the runt of the litter in my AWS team, I thankfully have avoided such plans. I’ve never been at a company so willing to frame mistakes and shortcomings as chances to grow.

Other people clearly are having different experiences.

Another goodie from AMZN - hard cap on max of years of experience for a position. Nice way to filter out the old dudes like me. I suppose the trend will naturally spread through the industry.

Edit: it is max cap in hiring requirements. The requirements are directly from AMZN recruiter (AMZN email address, etc). The max is bullet pointed together with the min. The max is also additionally clearly stressed in the description to make sure that there is no misunderstanding (i'd definitely would have hard time believing my eyes if seeing it only once in the bullet points)

I’m at Amazon now. This is not true.

You're already an employee. I'm talking about requirements for candidates. As far as I see it is a relatively recent innovation, which I thought would be blatantly illegal in the US until I saw it myself - I suppose the AMZN lawyers found a loophole.

When people talk about glass ceiling - well, now i know what glass bottom feels like :) If any requirements you don't directly match you can try to make a case in say cover letter to substitute - education vs. experience, etc., there is no way though how one can "decrease" the number of the years.

> which I thought would be blatantly illegal until I saw it myself

it would seem to be:


That document can absolutely be interpreted to say that this is blatantly illegal, but it doesn't explicitly address the question of maximum years of experience, so it's a matter of interpretation. Have they explicitly addressed this question somewhere else?

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/insight-cap... is a more recent article summarizing a court ruling from the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals in which, at least for the states covered by that court, it was determined that job applicants (as opposed to transfer or promotion applicants) can't bring disparate impact ADEA claims against theoretically age-neutral rules such as maximum years of experience. State or local age discrimination laws can go beyond the ADEA, of course, and some do.

Seconded. Haven’t seen this anywhere in Amazon.

Edit: Clarified that I meant within Amazon.

> Seconded. Haven’t seen this anywhere.

The military has it, and (news to me) it appears common in accountancy and management consulting.


I wanted to chime in the the military part. This is not an age limit on positions to keep old people out, this is to weed out under performers at a time where the military has a glut of highly qualified volunteers.

So up or out means “if you’re passed over for promotion twice, you must suck and we don’t want you anymore.”

But I have seen old officers in the lower ranks because they were enlisted men, then warrant officers, then finally officers. They were far older than their peers, but still needed to tick the boxes and get promoted.

Ref: Military Officer

Disclaimer work at Amazon.

Do you mind expanding on this a little bit on what position you were applying for?

I think it's perfectly reasonable if someone has 15 years of experience and being rejecting for an SDE I position. It's an absolutely fair question to ask why you aren't at an SDE II level already, or applying for that role with that amount of experience.

Similarly it makes sense to reject people who have years of experience but are applying for internships.

Although I doubt that's your specific case...

I'd be very surprised and extremely skeptical we have year caps on senior roles like SDE3/Principal

it was an unsolicited email from AMZN recruiter on what seems to be SDE3/4 judging by the requirements.

>I think it's perfectly reasonable if someone has 15 years of experience and being rejecting for an SDE I position. It's an absolutely fair question to ask why you aren't at an SDE II level already, or applying for that role with that amount of experience.

it is absolutely reasonable to ask and reject if unsatisfied with the answer. I think it is discriminatory to bar from applying (or reject automatically) based on such years based cap.

>Similarly it makes sense to reject people who have years of experience but are applying for internships.

again, i think such automatic rejection is discriminatory.

I didn't experience this while working at Amazon and I'm an old fart.

I guess you didn't represent us, old farts, well enough if the management now tries to limit intake that way :)

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