110+ million vaccinations in the US and holy goddamn, no major issues. 31 million infections and 550,000+ dead, in a year. Millions of long haul COVID cases. Debilitating lung conditions, brain fog, lasting consequences already from the virus, and you wanna crow about long term consequences of the vaccine. What in the actual roasting hell.
I've noticed you, specifically, posting pro-virus misinformation since the very beginning. Half a million people died, man. I wish you would just spare us your trolling, damn it!
>Stop violating people's human rights to make their own individual medical choices.
What are you even referring to? Literally no one has to get a vaccine if they don't want it. Nobody in the comment chain you're replying in had advocated for forced innoculation. This is 100% already a "their body, their choice" situation.
It's worse than that. They are literally rolling out misinformation--lies, really--to try to convince people to not get vaccinated. Comment history on the topic of COVID is littered with trollish behavior and bonkers-bad reasoning fitting a pattern.
I always provide sources for my facts. See above. The parent comment was an opinion. Meanwhile, you don't have access to a long-term study on any Covid treatment, because not enough time has passed. That's not misinformation. That's math.
Blood clots cause strokes. You have no idea if Covid treatment increases your odds of having a stroke in 10 years. I invite you to study the history of various medical treatments that turned out to have unintended consequences on unsuspecting populations. Good luck either way. Stay healthy and stay free.
For example, you can't easily prove that your comment here is not causing me to develop a blood clot if I develop one.
Which is why we try to prove positives: who else has developed a blood clot after reading your comment? Is there any correlation? Anything to suggest there is causation too? What would be the hypothesis.
You are right that vaccines are not proven to be perfectly safe (and to be honest, none of them are even with longer testing time). But you are still muddying the waters by throwing these "prove a negative" statements.
The risk with coronavirus vaccines today is that the risks are not fully known (unlike with other, more established, vaccines for other diseases). Risks of getting coronavirus is also not fully established, though we know it can be pretty severe.
It would be only natural to expect some similar immune response from COVID and vaccines causing similar issues in the body, but that's totally hypothetical until proven to be the case.
Data so far points that it's much less likely for someone to develop issues from a vaccine than from COVID itself (roughly 10000 less likely at least), so it's up to the individual to assess if they are less likely to contract COVID and get serious symptoms, or get serious symptoms out of vaccination.
Also statistically unknowable at this point. But a 34 and under year old already has less than a 1 in 100K chance of dying from Covid. That is to say, an under 34 year old is more likely to die of murder than die of Covid. Anywhere from 4-10x more likely in the U.S. depending on the city.
We never really exposed general population of under 34s to unmitigated coronavirus (perhaps March/April 2020 in USA or Sweden in 2020 is closest we got to it), but even that is uncontrolled for people deciding to reduce exposure to other people on their own.
"10000 less likely" was derived from 1 in 6 million compared to a global death rate of roughly 2%, then allowing for roughly an order of magnitude error: not scientific at all, I agree.
Taking your numbers as undisputable while not acknowledging that they are as uncertain as "the other side" is a bit dishonest in my opinion.
Accepting your stats here, but what about consequences other than death? A friend in their late 30s just had to relearn how to walk and was in a coma for weeks after getting COVID. Months later he still isn't able to work full time.
"The full research, development and approval process can last from 12 to 15 years."
"If the FDA gives the green light, the investigational drug will then enter three phases of clinical trials:
Phase 1: About 20 to 80 healthy volunteers to establish a drug's safety and profile, and takes about 1 year. Safety, metabolism and excretion of the drug are also emphasized.
Phase 2: Roughly 100 to 300 patient volunteers to assess the drug's effectiveness in those with a specific condition or disease. This phase runs about 2 years. Groups of similar patients may receive the actual drug compared to a placebo (inactive pill) or other active drug to determine if the drug has an effect. Safety and side effects are reviewed.
Phase 3: Typically, several thousand patients are monitored in clinics and hospitals to carefully determine effectiveness and identify further side effects. Different types and age ranges of patients are evaluated. The manufacturer may look at different doses as well as the experimental drug in combination with other treatments. This phase runs about about 3 years on average."
Fine, then what issue do you have with my comment? Pressuring or rushing to inject people who have no statistical risk is just adding to the overall risk equation
And when I hear rumblings of vaccine passports and all this nonsense in the news and I see some people's general attitude towards Covid vaccination: you're either for it or you're a flat earthling neophyte.
At any rate, point I'm trying to make:
There's less than 3700 deaths for Under 34 year olds in the United States, from Covid19 [1].
And that number will go down with every year that passes from here on out, because a broader percentage of that demographic already has herd immunity. In fact, there's much more important health problems to focus on for those demographics. Suicide, heart disease, homicide, car accidents, liver disease, diabetes, etc.
Population under 34: 148M
Covid19 deaths under 34 in first year of existence, with no immunity in population: 3710
Flu & pneumonia deaths for pop under 34 in 2018 was 1857 [3].
Odds of dying of Covid19 under 34 in first year of its existence:
.0025%
Odds of long-term consequences from RNA therapy from AZ, J&J, or Pfizer treatment: ???
Unknown. It could increase your odds of having a stroke at in 10 years. No one knows. If it's causing blood clots, that's a distinct possibility.
- these are vaccines, they aren’t gene therapy (ie they aren’t changing cellular DNA)
- saying a portion of the population has herd immunity is non-sensical. Either there’s herd immunity (virus can’t spread bc everyone has antibodies) or there isn’t. It happens at specific thresholds of population exposure/antibody presence that varies based on the R of the virus. It was estimated at ~70% for the ‘original’ virus and with the UK/SA variants now looks to be north of 80%.
- even with exposure, there are case reports of reinfect ion which makes sense in the history of coronaviruses which aren’t considered to provide long term immunity (ie antibody titre falls off and may not provide immunity in some short term horizon, ie 18 months)
- therefore, return to normal relies on elimination of community spread, by herd immunity, which likely will require vaccination; which will hopefully provide longer term immunity than infection with the virus itself (not sure on the evidence on this)
I agree that population that has low statistical risk shouldn’t be pressured into vaccination, and I see the dangers in vaccine passports etc.
To another point you made, regarding long term risks and generally the history of misguided attempts by the medical community to do something that has severe deleterious longer term effects that were unforeseen: I am signicantly less concerned about the risk of ie long term stroke risk being raised in this population, because the emerging evidence points to a HITTs-like antibody mediated condition.
In Heparin induced thrombocytopaenia and thrombosis, removal of trigger removes long term risk and I would think that no further antibody triggering thrombosis should be produced after the acute period in those affected (and indeed in that very large fragment of the population who don’t develop CVTS or vaccine mediated thrombosis, which does seem confined to those who had vaccine via adenovirus vectors), then it should be a non-issue because the autoantibody was never produced in the first place and there are no memory cells there ready to pump it out again at antigen presentation.
Of course, I qualify this with its possible, and you’re free to dismiss my confidence, but we have a plausible mechanism that is relatively well understood so I think the risk of there being long term risks is very low
It's quite true that nobody knows the long-term consequences of these vaccines (which I don't think it is accurate to call gene therapies), but likewise you have no idea what the long-term consequences of COVID exposure are either - it's not a simple die/survive binary as some people have mild symptoms but develop chronic problems.
You obviously have strong feelings about this because you came into the thread with big broad claims, but you seem to be taking disagreement from others very personally.
>Fine, then what issue do you have with my comment?
It's pretty obvious if you read my comment. You said, "Stop violating people's human rights", and I said nobody's rights are being violated. Putting it to you as clearly as possible, your rights are not being violated until you are being strapped into a chair and having a vaccine forced into you, and that's simply not going to happen.
Some regions may adopt a "passport" system for the relative short-term but even then, you still do not have to get a vaccine if you don't want to. You just may have to wait a little bit longer than the vaccinated to get back to participating in certain things, but you would still be exercising your right to not get vaccinated.
It's as simple as that, and has nothing to do with the rambling that followed your question.
I meant the original comment where you levied a personal attack against me. I stated my opinion in earnest. I've been posting on HN for better part of a decade, and you levy a personal assault on me. At any rate, I want you to understand: it's perfectly ok, and perfectly acceptable for there to be people in the world who have different opinions than you, and that does not make them a troll.
The above was my rationalization, with sources that you probably didn't bother to read, for my original comment where you made the personal attack and assaulted my character. At any rate, this conversation is done. Stay healthy and stay free, my friend.
> I meant the original comment where you levied a personal attack against me.
I think you mean me. What I actually wrote was:
> Comment history on the topic of COVID is littered with trollish behavior and bonkers-bad reasoning fitting a pattern.
And I stand by that statement. You've had a long history of rolling out dubious arguments and posting inflammatory misinformation with a deliberate agenda to minimize COVID from the very beginning, the whole damn year. I have no idea why. Your comments on other topics seem reasonable and level-headed, but your COVID trolling is just off the charts. I wish you would just stop it. The world hasn't even processed the trauma of going through millions of deaths, we're finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, and we got you out here just making more noises again, with driveby doubt mongering. Every. damn. time. Only with one more zero on the death counts each time. Please, just can it, dude. What are you hoping to accomplish? Talking people out of getting vaccines? You're afraid that you need to take a vaccine, because it's just the sniffles, or something? Fuck off with that already, the world's been on fire for a year. People I know have died. Friends of mine have long COVID. Friends of mine are doctors, nurses, who have seen thousands die. Fuck off with your stupid "gene therapy" fear mongering, on exactly the wrong thing, in exactly the wrong direction, at exactly the wrong time.
It concerns me that you are so keen on citing data in your comments, yet you are unable to notice that my username is not the same username that called you a troll.
My first comment in this thread was where I told you that your rights were not being violated. My second comment was my clarification. This is my third. There have been no personal attacks directed toward you from me - if you feel differently, please highlight where you feel I attacked you.
This is false. MRNA vaccines have no relation to gene therapy. MRNA is not turned into DNA by the body, and is fully gone from the body within a couple days. As such, there are no possible long term effects related to the vaccine being MRNA vs traditional protein based vaccines.
> No one has any clue as to their long term side effects. The under 30 odds of death for Covid-19 are statistically zero percent.
Can't you flip that around? No one has any clue as to the long term side effects of Covid-19. The under 30 odds of death for getting the vaccine are statistically zero percent.
They are vaccines and you should update your knowledge. Herd immunity needs to happen or our economy and health will be suffering for years. The chance of complications is also basically zero. If you want to chicken out and not get one that's fine, but don't spread disinformation. The mRNA vaccine is not gene therapy. Again you are spreading misinformation with that. Stop reading right wing trash sites and read some science sites.
