Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
Programming is hard (dorinlazar.ro)
597 points by zuzuleinen 13 days ago | hide | past | favorite | 476 comments

I've been programming for a long, long time. Went to college for it when I was a pre-teen. The more and more I code the more I see it closer to something like music than something like engineering. Getting a little garage band together isn't hard. A couple years of practice and you and your friends can play at a little bar or at least at a high school shindig.

The same is more or less true for programming. A simple stack of JS, HTML, and CSS is pretty easy to get going. And if you're content to make marketing sites for advertising companies or similar, then go nuts. That's your simple jam and you rock out on it as much as you like.

Other people want to learn violin or weird keys or timings or cross rhythm. They want to woodshed some African drums and mix them into complex arrangements. And you know what? It is harder than playing a simple guitar for a simple song.

We have the same thing with software, and once you've put in the years you find a sort of series of specializations that make you stand out a bit more and get you a bit more money.

So when people say "programming is easy" what they really mean is that it's easier than most people expect it will be for the financial incentives it provides. Compared to, say, structural engineering which takes four years of focussed study then a long period of practical understudy, software is easy and it pays more. Almost any structural engineer can become a data analyst or junior data scientist and make around double the salary within a year or two.

Yes we've all had the frustrating semicolon days, but there are highlights too. Fast feedback, ease of learning new technologies, ease of scaling to millions of customers. There are many advantages and I think they make up for it.

"I've been programming for a long, long time. Went to college for it when I was a pre-teen."

Yet you don't tell us how old you are, so it's hard to get a grasp for how long you've been programming. As someone who first started programming in 1979, I notice that there are plenty of people who say they've "been programming a long time" who weren't even born when I started programming. This isn't a criticism, just a comment that we don't really have any idea how long you've been programming. I can picture a 29-year old saying the same thing you did. Time is relative, something that becomes more and more clear, I think, the older a person gets.

> As someone who first started programming in 1979

I absolutely love that there are seasoned experts like you on HN.

Would you mind sharing with us what you're working on these days?

Compared to you I'm relatively young (I've been programming around 26 years) and in my circles I don't get to mix with too many older programmers.

Would love to hear your thoughts on career trajectories.

For me personally, I'm gradually spending less time on pursuing commercial interests, and more time on pro bono projects - and I love the idea of working on open source software indefinitely once I retire.

Cheers from South Africa.

Same here, 31 years. I'm 43 and started in around 1989-1990 at age 12. I didn't know anyone who had ever even attempted to program a computer, so I was completely on my own. I have a good grasp now but remain humbled by the craft (coding every day). Nearly everyone I know now is either where I was twenty years ago or insanely elitist. Still on my own.

I have many authors to thank.

Another relatively young programmer here: born in 80 started but started programming somewhere between 92 and 94 on Commodore 64.

I've been extremely lucky to mostly have worked with mostly ordinary programmers with some extremely good[1] thrown in and luckily even with the brilliant ones all except two of them were also down to earth and nice as well.

[1]: "master of all trades", all-knowing teacher types with "saintly" patience, learns-anything-in-two-hours-and-proceeds-to-fix-hard-bugs-after-lunch

I am 52, I started in BASIC programming in 1979. I am currently disabled and unable to work. I am trying to get better so I can become healthier and get back to work.

Programming became a lot easier when Visual BASIC and Delphi came out. Just drag and drop controls.

Due to ageism I am sure I don't fit the culture of a startup or relate to 20 somethings. They hire them young anyway not old. So I do tech support for family and friends to get by.

>Due to ageism I am sure I don't fit the culture of a startup or relate to 20 somethings.

Whatever you believe, your brain, like a sentry, will find confirmation for. Be careful with that.

And can slightly change how one does and says things, which others can notice, -- to some small extent, can become a self fulfilling prophecy.

(And this can work on in a good way too -- if you say to yourself maybe: I like these people, I like most people, what matters is not age, but if the others are curious and want to learn new things)

Now, of course I do believe that ageism is a thing, still, I'd think there're somewhat many good workplaces that aren't much affected by it

I'll keep that in mind. Hope it doesn't end up like The Interns movie.

While there is a degree of ageism in the industry - avoid companies that advertise their ethos as "work hard and play hard" because having to do most of your office politics half-drunk in the bars after work is not much fun - there are also a lot of people in the industry who genuinely care more about a person's ability to learn and adapt than the date on a birth certificate. Believe in your abilities. Wishing you good health for the future!

Thank you, I learned 27 different languages since 1979, most are so old that there are no jobs for them anymore. I used to be a master at Visual BASIC until Dotnet came out.

I can learn any language on the market if I wanted to. I am a quick learner as I have the theories of computer science in my head as I learn.

My first "paid" gig was winning £50 for submitting a game written in AMOS Basic to an Amiga computer magazine, which got picked as the magazine's "Game of the month". It's still an achievement I'm really proud about.

What are your 4? favorite languages? (Among those 27 :-))


Ok. I like Ada a bit, we studied at University, incl for a hard real time simulation problem :-) Never did any COBOL

Have a nice weekend tomorrow

I’m 53 and started FORTRAN programming in 1975ish on the VAX at my moms work. Bought an Ohio Scientific C2-8P a year or two later with my brother, and that’s when I got into programming games and really started to learn (BASIC) fast foreword 44 years or so, and I’m working in solidity writing contract code in a blockchain startup with a bunch of early 20s guys. They call me dad and are always asking advice on architecture and data structure problems Just closed our first round.

Work on projects, not at jobs...that’s my advice.

Wow, that's an even longer time. I started tinkering with code in the late 80s when I got my first computer at 4, then went to college when I was 11. First job at 14. I feel like 30 years of coding is long enough to feel like a long, long time. My pops had punchcards at home from the good ol' days.

I wasn't part of the couple waves of programmers, but I think it is fair to say I was in pretty early. Retying out programs from magazines isn't even something most programmers have considered these days, let alone programming without the internet.

But the essence of your comment is right. Of course there would be people out there that have programmed for twice as long as I have. That's a little frightening to think of.

> Retyping out programs from magazines isn't even something most programmers have considered these days

Oof, this takes me back to the day I learned about RAM the hard way. I was typing out a program from a magazine. It seemed like it took forever, even then. About halfway through the computer rudely informed me that 4K of RAM is not, in fact, enough for everyone.

Ha. Soviet magazines were more considering. They listed memory requirements well in advance, when I was learning racing games for my programmable calculator in late 1980s.

Was that a Vic-20? 3583 bytes free, after taking out the 22x23 screen display.

We have a winner. :)

The memories! POKE 36879!

I learned originally on a VIC-20 by typing in games out of books from the public library. At some point we upgraded to an XT and a friend sold me a copy of Power C for $20. It came with a beautiful hard copy library reference and the rest, as they say, is history!

Power C! I grew up in Germany and after the inevitable BASIC, C was the second language I learned, using Power C as a compiler, which I ordered by mail and which arrived from the States several weeks later, including the hard copy reference manual you mention. I also remember it came with a rudimentary graphics library I used to create screen savers for friends. Good times.

Check this out for a trip down memory lane: http://www.mixsoftware.com/product/powerc.htm

Still costs the same now as it did when I bought it!

Yeah, the graphics library was great! When I moved on to Linux and gcc, I was disappointed for a while that I didn't have all those super simple primitives to work with.

What about the other 7 bytes?

> Retyping out programs from magazines isn't even something most programmers have considered these days

I'm still retyping stuff from stack overflow instead of copying. I find it really effective to really think through the code you're borrowing from somewhere — because once it's committed under your name, you're the one responsible for it.

> I'm still retyping stuff from stack overflow instead of copying. I find it really effective to really think through the code you're borrowing from somewhere

Numerical Recipes in C. Had the hard copy but not the disk.

Often the code was just to obscure to work out as you typed, but there was some real value to typing it in. You got some real feel for it. Additionally it offered hard lessons in writing test cases.

The last thing I think I got from SO was an implementation of the Boyer-Moore Algorithm for a byte searcher. I think retyping it would have probably introduced bugs: and as it worked on a test case I had to hand and could verify (finding the data header size in a WAV file by looking for `data` followed by the SubChunk2Size bits, which I could verify with `afinfo`) I was happy to use it rather than learn how the algorithm worked.

As Morpheus said, “Time is always against us”.. so I just made sure it followed our coding standards, checked the test cases, and moved on.

But, I am old enough to remember code listings in magazines. I like to think the typesetters introduced deliberate mistakes because they hated the work so much - not to disrespect the fine profession of typesetters, but when you set your 100th `Poke` command in a row, you might think this isn’t what you signed up for..

You went to college, as in university, when you were 11?!

Well that's interesting. I guess he's basically a genius then?

Please don't call me that. I really believe any 11 year old could learn what I did with parents like mine.

When I compare the skill involved with something like violin versus the skill that's needed to validate HTML forms with JavaScript or creating an application in Visual Basic, I really do not believe that people that happened to study software at a young age happen to be geniuses just because they did. Yes I'm smart, but I really believe that this path could be open to anyone that age if they have the interest and I think the internet has unlocked many people that have learned the same skills without the credentials.

I used to have this mindset, but then I had a small stroke and lost significant IQ points. I slowly, but never fully, gained them back over two years. I realized that the ease that I saw/see solutions, compared to others, wasn't just related to the time I put into thinking about them. Much of it came for free, in what I can describe as the length and number of the tendrils reaching out to explore whatever "problem space".

I no longer believe that "anyone with an interest" can be at the same level as someone that can just see the answers, with little effort. Some people have fewer/shorter tendrils.

This has definitely changed the way I interact with people. I used to get frustrated when people, who I thought should be able to understand, couldn't. Now I realize that they just can't as easily. They need that picture drawn out for them, and even then, they'll never see the nuances or perceive the textures of the problem, unless you point it out to them.

I think I'm lucky for being born with the mind that I have. It has made my life easy, pulling me out of poverty, with a mostly addictive enjoyment in what I do. I think you're probably luckier than you realize.

The way I talk about this is to frame what people call intelligence as the combination of memory (+ actual memories) and comprehension.

Your ability to 'just see the answers', in this framing, stems from having a lot of data points readily available and the ability to combine them together quickly.

There are definitely people who are better at remembering things, and piecing multiple ideas together quickly, but these are also skills that can be trained. I think it's likely that a lot of 'intelligent' people are simply people who actively (though usually not consciously) train these skills because they enjoy them.

In the same way that many fit people don't have to think about exercising - they do it because they enjoy it or without any particular goal - there are people who see an interesting problem and immediately start thinking about how they might solve it or how it's similar to other problems they've seen.

In the same way that anyone can implement a training regime to improve their fitness I think anyone can implement a training regime to improve the number of data points available to them (read lots!) and their ability to combine that information together (solve puzzles, especially theoretical/not personally applicable ones like "how would I get that boat free?").

> I think it's likely that a lot of 'intelligent' people are simply people who actively (though usually not consciously) train these skills

I think it's odd how many people make up their own private theories about these things :-)

When there's research available about how intelligence "happens".

You find it odd that people think about what intelligence is, or how it presents?

If you’ve got links/references/keywords for research that invalidates (or validates!) these ideas please share them, I’d love to look them up. From what I’ve read the idea “intelligence can be (at least in part) described as having knowledge and being able to apply that knowledge to new problems” is a well trodden one.

I haven’t seen much on the idea that some people may be predisposed to engaging with stimulating situations, so anything you have on that topic would be highly appreciated. I have seen writings on how a stimulating environment is important, and on how encouraging engagement can be effective (for example asking questions of children and allowing them to answer, vs answering for them).

[edit] In my original post I should probably have written “is to frame a lot of what people call intelligence as” - I definitely don’t think this is all intelligence but I do think it has a significant role in what the gp was talking about, this ability to see answers quickly.

> [edit] In my original post I should probably have written “is to frame a lot of what people call intelligence as” ...

Ok then i understand better what you mean.

Actually there's a word for that type of intelligence:

Crystallized intelligence.

And I had another type of intelligence in mind:

Fluid intelligence.

I think we spoke past each other (or I spoke past you) thinking about different things.

Anyway, one of those, one can improve eg by reading, getting life experience. But the other one, is fixed (from what I've read) once one is grown up.

If you want to, you could websearch for those words. And also, wikipedia has a section about intelligence and inheritance (hint: life is unfair).

> I have seen writings on how a stimulating environment is important, and on how encouraging engagement can be effective (for example asking questions of children and allowing them to answer, vs answering for them).

That sounds great :-)

From what I've read, those things do work (!), when one is a kid / young. And from what I've read, it also prevents the brain from deteriorating, when one is old (using one's brain reduces the risk for dementia).

(Thanks for the reply)

I appreciated this insight, thanks.

From the article:

> everyone seemed to think I was smarter than I believed I was. I feared I might fail miserably and finally prove how wrong they were about me

I can totally relate to that. Once everybody told you you're a genius, the pressure not to fail is incredible.

I started programming at 8. I got next to no help from my parents or my teachers, until the time I entered college, and by that point I felt I knew as much as the professors, sometimes more. I always avoided talking about programming, since that would get a me more genius calls on top of what my grades got me. And it doesn't help with making friends. Over the years I had maybe one or two friends who knew about it. Few would've believe me if I had told them what I could do.

I feel like there's nothing special about the path I took. I feel like anyone would be able to achieve the same knowledge I did given enough work and support. I must have spent thousands of hours programming in my teens. What nobody seem to realize is that the genius label is wrong, what they really should have told me was that I was "passionate". Anyone who is passionate enough can become a master.

> I must have spent thousands of hours programming in my teens.

That's what I think about when I hear people complaining about gatekeeping in our field. The books are open, the courses are there, interesting and useful applications abound. Given the same level of effort I think much of the difference between social groups would vanish.

I don't know what the university courses entailed. I'm basing "genius" on my knowledge of the current Computer Science curriculum. If you were doing CS courses at age 11 I do think you must have genius level intelligence.

If it was more practically-orientated, then I agree with you :).

Don't know about 3pt14159, but Erik Demaine started university at 12 and completed PhD by 20. So, while it's implausible, it's not impossible either.

I'm so glad that you come by Hacker News. What are you doing these days?

Thanks for the kind words :)

I'm not really sure what to work on next. I was focussed on arms control for cyberweapons for a while, and I made some real progress, but I want to work on something new now. Maybe finding a way to scale up good things like trust or good will? I want to find something where I'm making the world a better place but also working on something that makes me smile. Trying to fight weapon dispersion is exhausting and discouraging and, ultimately, as I learned, futile.

> Maybe finding a way to scale up good things like trust or good will? I want to find something where I'm making the world a better place but also working on something that makes me smile.

Have you made any progress finding something new to work on?

Maybe I'm projecting here, but I'd imagine this is the dream of most of HN, no? But I don't know which is harder: finding such a unicorn idea, or executing on it once you've found it.

Wild idea: crowdfunded impact investing through monetized social gaming — plant 10,000 virtual trees and we'll plant one IRL.

There are many startups out there with meaningful visions and need experienced devs like yourself.

Thank you for trying

> Maybe finding a way to scale up good things like trust or good will?

Have you considered working in the cryptocurrency space next? I think that would satisfy your desire to find ways to scale up trust. One of the key value propositions of crypto is building trust at scale on the pillars decentralization, cryptography, game theory, and economics.

> Retying out programs from magazines isn't even something most programmers have considered these days, let alone programming without the internet.

Wow. Flashback. I started programming late age wise (college freshman in the 90s), because until that first student loan we didn’t have enough money to buy a computer. I would go to the local bookstore and copy code out of the programming magazines and books. I remember writing some c++ code, bumping into a problem I couldn’t solve and driving to the bookstore to look at the books for a solution.

Alright, so you are about 5-10 years younger than me and we started programming at around the same time.

I'd never say of myself that I've been programming "for a long time", let along "a long, long time".

so at what point is your personal gatekeeping threshold met?

I started programming in 1974 :-)

Going to college for programming must mean they are quite young indeed. When did colleges even start offering programming degrees? Unless maybe this is some sort of vocational college.

Depending on what is meant by 'programming,' computer science really grew out of mathematics and occasionally physics departments at colleges in the late 50s and early 60s. Disciplines started establishing CS departments in the US around the mid- to late- 60s. I'd say anyone exposed to that period on could be considered as having formal training in "programming" in a college or university environment.

I have a good friend that worked during the 60s era programming with punch cards doing applied physics work in FORTRAN (pre 77) which was already pretty big by then. You could probably go back a bit further but I don't think much was being actively taught as a sort of course one might expect today then. So I'd say you could have at most 65ish years of programming since formal use in college.

No, it was not software engineering at the time per se but I'd absolutely call it programming.

Electrical Engineering departments were also starting to offer more and more "programming and computer" related courses as well. At a lot of universities these eventually branched out to become Computer or Software Engineering programs.

My uncle worked at the National Institutes of Health for about 35 years doing bioinformatics and protein structure modeling. In FORTRAN. Always in FORTRAN. He knew other stuff, but the bulk of his work was always FORTRAN.

And young people are still learning Fortran today, though it's not the most common language any more, and we tend to learn several different ones.

I didn't learn fortran in university, but I did have to learn it for a job. It's still THE language for scientific computing. So in any job in or adjacent to scientific computing, you're bound to run into fortran.

> Going to college for programming must mean they are quite young indeed. When did colleges even start offering programming degrees?

Per Wikipedia, 1953. Coincidentally the same year that RMS—not exactly the youngest programmer around—was born.

But that waa a graduate degree. Undergraduate probably sometime between then and 1962 when Purdue opened the first full CS department, I would assume.

My mom taught programming at the college level in the early 80s, in a computer science department at a state university. At that time, the big universities had computer science departments. The 4 year colleges were more of a hodgepodge, ranging from full blown CS, to a handful of programming courses offered by the math department. By the time I graduated in the mid 80s, CS departments were pretty widespread.

Someone who entered college at the start of the dot-com bubble is in their mid 40s, and that's not even when CS degrees were first offered, just when they started entering the public consciousness.

You could easily have a CS degree and be past normal retirement age.

CS College degrees in dot com era were hit and miss. Also often had a weird mix of electrical engineering courses thrown in.

Was quite common to do 2-3 years then drop out and start a job. So much so that people with degrees were often looked down on. Exceptions for things like MIT.

After year 3, there was nothing left for me to take. So I took a job.

I would like to have a degree, but it was the right call at the time.

Few years ago I went back and started an Art degree. Was a blast.

I'm still holding onto some of my mom's CompSci homework from the early 80s or so. Mostly based on flow diagrams and what amounts to state machines. Sadly no punch cards, though she talked about taking them in to run assignments.

Story goes that she had a campus job cleaning, and made good friends with the guys in charge of running the mainframe by bringing them food and drinks when she stopped by. Which of course meant she could often get them to sneak her stack of cards into the queue overnight.

Details are fuzzy since I last heard the tales over a decade ago, and haven't dug the assignments out in forever.

Young is relative... Computer science degrees have been available in colleges for 20+ years

20+ is technically correct.

NC State was celebrating 40 years of CS in 2006 or so and they weren't the first. CS degrees have been around since the 1960s, so 50+ years at this point of CS as a separate degree program in the US. Apparently Cambridge offered their first CS degree in 1953.

Yes, but they took quite some time to spread to the whole country and to every major university. That didn't really start until the 70s and 80s (in line with when NC State got established).

My graduate school's CS department is older than the university it now belongs to.

Woah there, I was studying computer science in college 20 years ago and it wasn't even close to a new degree program then.

Too be fair, when I say 20 years ago I'm thinking "the 80s", then I remember that's wrong and I'm old.

Manchester University has had a CS department and degree since 1965:


I switched my major from 'business' (yawn) to comp sci 35 years ago (1986).. at my school, it was previously a 'concentration' in the Math department, which meant you got a BS in Math, concentration in Computer Science. It wasn't a full Bachelors of Science degree until about two years before I got there.

My father (RIP) got his Masters degree in CS-EE from MIT in 1972, almost 50 years ago.

I think you are kidding. Even my southern noname university had cs degrees 40 years ago. We had 3, one that was computer engineering, one in arts & sciences, one in the biz college

Started on a pdp-8/E in 1973 with its staggering 4k of 12-bit memory. "Going to college to program" might have meant going to where the machines were as most of them were on the large size... We had to descend on the college computer centre, which drove the adults nuts. Rugrats running about, fixing their programs for them. Times were different then, but the graduate-to-hacker test was to start with blank paper and end up with a working program. It was too big and too slow, but at the end the new hacker was enlightened.

The first computer science degree offered in the US was in 1962. The first in the world was offered in 1953.

They probably meant they went to college for something like computer science or computer engineering that includes a ton of classes that involve a lot of programming?

Or, since he says "pre-teen", it could just be that his parents sent him to a programming class at a local community college when he was twelve years old. That's the sense I get, actually. The number of people who start actual college as a pre-teen is vanishingly small.

On my case, you could already get it high school in the mid-80's.

We had a Pascal class on a VAX in my high school in 1983, and it was fantastic. We used the classic "Oh! Pascal!" text and it was great preparation for college. There was no CS major at the liberal arts school where I ended up, but there were courses with Turbo Pascal taught by the math department before I graduated.

I first programmed a calculator (well, copy-keyed a hangman game program into a calculator) back in 1980. Passed my 'O' level computing exam in 1983. Started building websites in the last years of the 20th century. Looking back, none of that feels like "programming" to me. I finally started programming when I had a mind-blowing "A-HA!" moment about what Object Oriented programming was all about in 2009 - which made a change from the many, many "wtf" moments I had with non-Basic-like languages before then.

Also not directed towards you, but just because someone has programmed for a long time doesn't been they're particularly good at it. Plenty of people don't learn - it's not even a character flaw, some people just program for the job.

I don't disagree but the idea of equating software development with some sort of artistry also allows the existence of the 10x programmer as, you know, a more gifted artists. Whether any one of us believes in 10x'ers aside, there are a lot of problems with this from the perspective of those paying the salaries, not least of which it means developers are not simply interchangeable cogs in a machine/process.

The most horrendous application I ever worked on was a java servlet app where the original developers didn't understand thread safety. They didn't let that stop them though. Every collection was a synchronized list or concurrent hash map, every access was wrapped in a mutex or synchronized{} block. It was really really bad; lots of race conditions and deadlocks, lots of production outages and a lot of "add more locks". In the neighborhood of 200,000 lines of this. It was "artistry" of a sort.

That application got the company to IPO, so the business owners were overjoyed with it. What's the point? Gatekeepers can gatekeep, artists can create art, but even the most banal garbage can make someone a lot of money.

I've been consistently amazed at how far companies can get on shoddy code.

In my experience, even majorly successful startups that turn into companies worth 10's of billions tend to have lots of technical debt.

Honestly, I believe that at some scale its very difficult to get the caliber of experience and talent that can keep a codebase clean.

People often say accruing technical debt is a form of shortcutting to a more business focused goal, but in my experience the technical debt is almost always created by accident through lack of experience rather than a conscious tradeoff. Especially when you consider a SaaS company where your product lives forever and is meant to scale, taking on technical debt for short term gain is almost never the right decision.

Not to reopen the 10x engineer debate, but I've observed that the top 20% of engineers tend to do 80% of the total work of an org. Of course, 10x is relative... But there are definitely individuals that are 10x more productive than the median engineer. And for whatever reason, that seems more to do with an individual's personality and drive than their level of experience... Though of course experience helps.

Especially as a project scales, somebody who makes good technical decisions will only increase the productivity margin between themselves and others. What I see in a lot of these SaaS codebases is that it takes a week to do something that should take 1 day, due to amount of technical debt and spaghetti code.

Software is still a new industry. I fully believe the companies that win in the long run will be the ones that have the best codebases (assuming software is what differentiates your business). The impact that it has on velocity is just monumental.

Code quality and philosophy of well written code is not stressed at all in school... One example of how far off we are from maturity as a discipline. There is a whole school of thought that's currently neglected that will become mainstream in the future IMO. Similar to other engineering disciplines...

> Especially as a project scales, somebody who makes good technical decisions will only increase the productivity margin between themselves and others.

I once saw a customer obsessed junior engineer push out features that our users really wanted, but that none of the senior engineers had time for.

Half a year or so later one of the senior engineers was complaining that he had to rewrite everything that junior engineer did due to how poorly the code was written.

End of the day? The junior engineer's code is what got shipped and made the user's happy. Was it tech debt that had to be rewritten? Sure. Was my team happy with him for being willing to work with us to make the product better? Yup.

Perfect is the enemy of the good and all that.

(I've also seen code where changes took a long time because someone invented a DI framework and layers of XML configuration files when a single if statement with 2 branches would've done the trick. Was the solution well engineered? Yes! Very reliable, good quality code. Took me a few days to get ahold of it and add that 2nd conditional...)

Sure, but if a senior engineer had written it in the first place, it wouldn't have had to be rewritten, thus saving lots of time (assuming senior engineer is strong technically :))

If you had instead hired an additional senior guy who was paid 1.5x compared to the junior guy, it would have been a better outcome for the business all around. Of course just using this contrived example, and the exact salary numbers change the outcome...

I value code well written, maintainable, and testable but sometimes I'm a bit put off on certain conclusions. Once I read a report by a guy who had come in into a business to re-work an, by his words, unmaintainable mess. This had been written over five years by a single guy and no-one seemed to be able to make sense of it.

The one re-writing touted what they had accomplish, a full re-write with a team of 15 or so people, in a couple months. I can believe that some guys are dickheads and do crap and are anti-social or don't want anyone touching their stuff and think they're the last cookie in the packet.

On the other hand, there's a real difference between writing from scratch something, with features tacked on week-in week-out, contradicting requests, no time to work through issues or problems, being the only one allocated to the problem and having no real plan or feature map laid out, during 5 years and then coming in, when all the system is laid out, all the bugs and domain knowledge have been made visible, there's a working system that can be used as base to understand the objectives, the rough edges, problems and pain points are also known, and rewriting it from scratch better.

Lastly, it's also not known if they had been the ones writing from start with the same constraints if it would have been so pristine as they claim, and it hasn't stood the time for 5 years yet. Maybe it'll end problematic as well but now it took a team of 15 or so that probably cost more than that single guy for 5 years - and still made something that helped keep the business throughout.

We had plenty of senior engineers, they were busy doing senior engineering things!

Sometimes not knowing something is supposed to be hard is what makes that hard thing possible to do.

Part of the problem is that "well written code" is unbelievably subjective. Take 10 people from hacker news and you will get 10 likely very different answers, some of them most likely the exact opposites.

Maybe it has to do with being "a new industry", but by now we have accumulated decades. I think it's more because you can get away with it. In other industries, you can't. If a bridge collapses, people die. If a car's brakes fail, people die. If you administer the wrong amount of anesthesia, people die. If you write spaghetti code .. shrug and move on.

Even within the code base of the place I work in, a few hundred sw engs in total, we don't have a shared understanding of what exactly "good", "clean", ... design is. Everybody has an idea, and there are overlaps, but the criteria that people seem to optimize for, and thus the conclusions they draw about design, differ vastly. Within my company, and even more so across our industry.

> Part of the problem is that "well written code" is unbelievably subjective.

I'd recommend you check out Code Complete if you haven't read it. It is an excellent intro into best practices although its about 1000 pages and a bit dated. As it turns out, we as an industry do have an understanding of what makes code better, and it turns out, its mostly not very controversial - push complexity as low as it can go, simpler interfaces tend to be better, argument pass through causes errors, functions longer than 80 lines are associated with higher error counts, optimize code for human comprehension later (~70% of the effort that goes into code is maintaining it) etc etc.

What I personally check out does not matter much. My point was a lack of consensus within the industry. It does not help if I read the same book as you and we two agree 100% what exactly we mean, when the next guy considers most of that nonsense. And that's what I observe with colleagues.

> it turns out, its mostly not very controversial

I don't believe this until proven otherwise with actual data. Any programming concept on this planet eventually gets an article on the HN front page that argues for why that particular concept is really bad and then we are having a huge discussion about it.

> I don't believe this until proven otherwise with actual data.

I don't remember the last time that a piece by Uncle Bob or Martin Fowler—and they're just two examples, I've seen quite a few more who are generally met with agreement every time they're posted—was heavily criticized or disagreed with here.

And when I do see disagreements, they tend to come from people who don't seem to have nearly as much experience as those guys do or who might have misinterpreted their point (much like how the idea of agile has turned into something that only reflects the manifesto tangentially, and accidentally at that) and who are, perhaps not coincidentally, likely to fall in the "programming is easy" camp.

And even then, "controversial in hacker news" is hardly representative of what's controversial in the field at large (which I also understand goes against my own first point).

If anything, Code Complete was for me further evidence of its subjectivity. I'd have to pull the book out again to find examples, but I remember finding a good 20-30% of the "better" examples actually more difficult to read, or there being a third way of doing it not mentioned in the book.

Heh, good code is the kind you can throw away once you’ve used it to sell stakeholders on an idea. It’s contextual. Or, to put it another way: is a very structurally sound bridge located on a road that no one uses considered a “good” bridge?

I'd raise a difference between good and useful then. That is still a good bridge, but it's not a useful one. I think that also transfers to programming. That also raises that what makes a bridge good is not usefulness it's perhaps structural quality. Maybe the only thing that makes programming good is usefulness in which case my point is moot.

There's subjectivity, but you can also certainly make objective arguments for why one form is readable relative to others.

For example, here are some principles I can strongly justify:

Bubble important info. Structure your code visually such that signal to noise ratio is highest. E.g. appropriately named variables should be more immediately visible than implementation details. E.g. if variable is named well, you can typically ignore the RHS of an assignment... It's an implementation detail. Don't indent such that RHS of assignment is emphasized. We can debate that point, but I'm using objective reasoning for defining why this style is beneficial.

Human readable naming. Name of variables should define exactly what they represent and nothing else. Your code should be written to read as closely to natural language as possible. E.g. if in a functional language, and all functions describe what they do exactly, RHS of assignments are indented to deemphasize them, you can understand high level of any function quickly by scanning LHS assignments and top level expressions. The more unclear your names, the more "mental recalls or lookups" the reader has to do.

Don't use anonymous functions. For anything longer than one line, always used a named function that appropriately represents what it does. Reader should not ever get implementation details pushed into their face. Pushing implementation details to the forefront is the biggest readability error I see in code. It's almost never important for business oriented code unless there's a bug in it. Majority of the time the reader is simply trying to get context and understand meaning of the code. Optimize for this.

Hide your declared functions out of sight. Reader will get high level understanding of their use where called, due to their name. If they want to reference the implementation, they can go to function declaration, but typically they won't need to. Don't declare functions sibling to your core logic. They should not break high level flow of function (does not help readability). Frustrating when people declare functions above where the core logic of the function is... See it a lot in python due to lack of inner function hoisting. Books have footnotes for a reason

Hide implementation details as much as possible behind api boundaries.

Model component apis such that implementation details are not exposed to caller or creator. Don't mix naming of business concepts and render logic. E.g. if you have a generic graph component, nothing within that component should reference your business domain. I see this mistake a lot. More generally, never name something which implies an understanding of a different context than the one you're in. By doing so you're coupling the two domains and increasing the amount of context the reader needs to understand your code.

Prefer immutable variables. The more constants and immutable state you use, the fewer things you have to track in your head as you follow code. You know once you see an assignment, that variable will never change. You don't need to scan every line between assignment and later use to determine whether that var is later modified.

Don't nest expressions too deeply, such that it's difficult to parse. If you can instead assign to appropriately named variable, reader can typically ignore the expression altogether.

Prefer named function or variable that describe the result of a computation rather than inlining an expression. If featureFlag == 1 represents isFeatureEnabled, assign that to an appropriately named variable. Anytime you make the reader "infer the name" of a variable by parsing the expression themselves, you make your code harder to read.

camelCase is superior to snake_case because a variable represents a single concept, not separate concepts represented by a string of words. Adding underscore unnecessarily makes words visually distinct when you're dealing with a single concept. They also add verbosity and length that doesn't benefit anything. Is there an objective argument for snake case being more readable other than it's the convention in some languages (not objective reasoning) (Flame war go!)

Anyway, I could go on with a number of more points. Am I suggesting there's a correct style? Not at all. But you can absolutely use strong and objective reasoning for why one style is superior to another. I don't see people typically apply this kind of rigor to their style, they tend to just prefer one approach "because".

Different people will weight things differently, so can come to different conclusion given same evidence, but there's absolutely a whole set of philosophy and logic you can use to justify style, and it's not explored at all in academia really.

Final note. There is definitely an element of cultural bias as well. People who tend to read code of one style will more readily be able to parse that style. There is no universal truth. But if we all start from the same state, we should justify which styles are best with strong reasoning.

Because I agree with most of it, but you called for a flame war, I'm going to jump in.

snake_case, is obviously the more readable. In fact your point shows this cognitive dissonance we all have to a certain extent. You argued (and I agree) with a lot of details that are important for readability at "first sight", "intuitive layout" etc, and then you go to say camelCase is more readable...

We're not even taking into account people with small amounts of dyslexia in this, but

certainlyThisIsNotMoreReadable than certainly_this_is_not_more_readable

Is it? :) gzip will take care of the underscores

They're both pinkie cases -- kebab case is clearly superior. ;)

Maybe if you're a foodie person? :) kebab doesn't allow to do whole selections on most text interfaces though so that's a real downer for me, no matter how much a good kebab is worth

Well, I regret putting that part in, as I was just trying to be cheeky :)

It took away from my overall point, as I don't have strong convictions on that one.

That one is much more subjective than the other points!

Thanks for this long list. But again, that's missing the point. Everybody has their list of what they do and why. And everybody is pretty convinced that this is how it ought to be and they have good reasons. I'm not saying yours are wrong. But for most of your points, I know people who'd argue the exact opposite. And they give good reasons too.

Point is that we don't have a shared, common, well-defined core in our industry. A list that everybody adheres to. Our lists are not in sync.

The variety of programming languages that people can choose from now does not help either. Standard practice in one language is a cardinal sin in another. Different patterns, different principles, different paradigms. People mix and match freely.

My point is that most people's "list" is not rooted in objectivity at all.

I provide objective and concrete reasoning for why these style elements are beneficial. In the wild I rarely see people justify their style with strong convictions.

Again, different people can reach different conclusions given the same evidence, so there will never be a universally correct way to do things.

But there's also is a lot that's done by convention that's hard to justify objectively.

The biggest faux pas I see is pushing implementation details to the forefront. There are arguments to be made that this can be beneficial in some contexts, such as algorithms where you want a "single pane of glass" into what's happening. But you can also objectively specify those contexts and when a style is more applicable to one context vs another.

So long story short, no, there is no best style. Yes, you can objectively quantify why a style is good or not, and in which contexts. Beyond specific style elements, there is a philosophy underlying the readability of code style and will eventually become a big part of education in software IMO.

Looks like we agree in principle.

Other industries/areas have firmly established standards. Our industry needs those too, badly. Not just for style, but overall for design and architecture.

Maybe it's because software development is so easily accessible that we don't have them yet. To become a surgeon, you need to go to med school for an eternity. To become a construction engineer you need training and government certification. Both areas move slowly, compared to programming. In our industry, a language that's older than 10 years is called "mature" and the hipsters leave it for a younger one. And the next 16-year old can jump right in. That's not bad, it keeps our industry exciting, but it does not allow us to establish rules everybody agrees to, applies and defends.

>I've been consistently amazed at how far companies can get on shoddy code.

I think this was one of the most disheartening realizations of my career. I spent and still spend a lot of thought on how to improve code for readability and maintainability just to realize companies can make a lot of money with crap for a long time.

I think it's more of a correlation not causation thing :)

All else equal, the company with the better codebase will be more competitive/make more money.

But at the same time it's just true that for most companies code quality and technical excellence are not core qualities of their culture. A lot of companies say that it is, but they don't live it... Or the original founder/technical team don't really have the chops to enforce that quality and make it a core element of the business.

Of course that doesn't meant they're not smart. I've known a huge number of highly intelligent people that don't care about code quality, or the future human reader. Needs to become embedded in culture of the org for it to trickle down and become lived in practice.

This is where I shine in start up environments. I can throw together “working” implementations quickly while also having the forward thought to allow the system to be incrementally replaced or improved overtime. My starting implementations can look rough and sloppy, but I use consistent patterns and designs that guide building out more complex systems as we go.

I have also done the opposite of taking an existing monolithic spaghetti code system and start isolating functionality without changing behavior. This then allows to improve and replace sub systems as needed.

If the 10x and gatekeeping people want to give us methods for getting to 10x productivity/skill, I'm all for it. But articles and threads like these always fail to give up a method of reliably training that quality and accurately testing for it.

Until I can hold up a plaque where humanity agrees that I'm a proven 1x, 5x, or 10x engineer and I deserve money and a job according to each of those levels, it's all just posturing and debate.

Unfortunately I'm not sure it's trainable. It seems much more correlated to an individual's personality and drive.

The traits I see in engineers who I consider to be 10x:

Growth mentality. Always try to do things the "right way" rather than just completing a task. Educate yourself via internet/books to understand all points of view on an issue, and tradeoffs of each approach.

Setting a high bar for your work. Never solely focus on getting the job done, always question and focus on what the best way to get the job done is.

Extremely self critical. Don't get attached to your work. Always criticize yourself and question whether decisions you made were correct.

Objectivity. Always quantify objectively to yourself why you made a given design decision, why did you name your variable X vs Y? Could you justify the merits of your approach to others without relying on subjective points?

Focus on business value. Optimize for what drives business value. Don't pursue projects that are technically interesting that don't provide long run value, for example.

Work with intensity. These people legit code 8-10 hours a day straight. They aren't coding for 30m then browsing the internet.

Never give up. Regardless of how technically challenging or impossible a task seems, they will work tirelessly to find a solution.

Self managing. Can operate 100% independently without constant manager intervention. High level direction still important to align on business goals of course.

Ownership. These people take pride in their work and feel a sense of ownership over their code. They don't need to be asked to step in when something they've worked on has an issue.

It's not about specific knowledge at all, or training.

People could learn to follow these principals, but it's much easier when it's in your nature. I have not seen anyone really change their trajectory from median to superstar before, but I'm sure it's possible with a mentality shift.

> Never give up. Regardless of how technically challenging or impossible a task seems, they will work tirelessly to find a solution.

That is actually a failure mode - the engineer that tirelessly works towards an impossible goal.

The 10x engineer has the critical heuristics/intuition/skill to avoid dead-ends, and also the engineering taste to concentrate on technically hard but possible tasks and the skills to deliver.

For sure, if the task is truly impossible.

I more often see junior employees give up on tasks they think are impossible that aren't.

> These people legit code 8-10 hours a day straight.

That's physically impossible, unless you're performing some assembly line task like creating a frontend prototype from a marvelapp mock (tons of html, css, js).

Can you do creative work for 10 hours in a stretch, every day.

I would consider myself a highly productive person and I have many of the qualities they pointed out. I can’t program that long, I program in hyper-focused bursts. I have had many coworkers comment/complain that it looks like I’m not working because I’m surfing the web, watching YouTube, daydreaming, etc. But I’m constantly designing, debating, and thinking out how I should implement something that by the time I actually go to code it I know what needs to be done and bust it out in a couple hours. My managers commented on this early in my career because other developers think I’m lazy, unprofessional, or unproductive when I’m usually the most productive person on the team. Working from home removes this problem for me.


> One afternoon, I was bent over a program listing while Wendl was staring into space, his feet propped up on his desk. Our boss came in and asked, “Wendl! What are you doing?” Wendl said, “I’m thinking.” And the boss said, “Can’t you do that at home?”

That's physically impossible only for 98% of the population, like you and me.

I did this myself for many years in a startup :)

Averaging around 350k lines of code a year for a few years. This was mostly frontend/product focused work, so there is more boilerplate than in other disciplines, of course.

It's also important to note, the higher quality the codebase is, the less energy it takes to add to it. If you spend 50% of your time reverse engineering spaghetti code, it will be way more tiring than adding to a codebase where design is sound, code is very human readable/friendly etc.

It certainly takes a lot of energy, but why do you say it's impossible?

I can feel my IQ dropping at a steady rate when I program for long stretches of time.

Been coding about 20yrs, In my case its not as much as the IQ but the ability to switch perspectives. I have seen that when I code or debug for long hours often I lose that critical ability and I often repeat the same mistakes. Eventually I take hours to accomplish what I would in 30mins, thats when its time to wrap up.

but I should point out that long stretches of time are different from quite (context switch free) streches of time.

In my case I was working in a codebase that I largely built myself, so I understood all design decisions and code at all times. It's much easier to operate in this environment.

I have worked on less clean codebases where I spend hours tracing state through spaghetti-like code, and there's no way you can productively code for lengths of time in those environments.

It's always better to refactor that kind of stuff ASAP, assuming the longevity of the product matters, and the refactor is a tangible improvement over the original.

So it was more or less a large solo project? How do you know your code base was much better than those less clean/spaghetti codebases? Your own code is obviously easier to read/understand than that of others. In general it's easier to write code than to read/understand code of others. Developers who are founding members of a codebase are able to navigate it better vs those who come later and therefore able to work much faster. It may give them a false impression that they are genius 10x coder. Then when developer who comes later is not able to be productive, founding developer would blame it on incompetence of newer developer. But it could also be that codebase is of poor quality, but as founding developer you don't see it. It's hard to be objective about your own code. Now let's go to the reverse situation when you are spending hours "tracing state through spaghetti-like code". It could in fact be that it's actually a great code written by a 10x developer, but you are not smart enough to understand how it works. It's natural to blame someone else and not you.

Not a solo project. I was an early dev at a startup and owned that feature area. Later on others took over the code.

How to judge whether a codebase is high quality?

Consistency of design and abstraction. Does the code use the same abstractions and design throughout? Consistency is one of the most important things in quality. How many unique concepts and abstractions do you have to learn to understand the code? E.g. in frontend context, do you use the same pattern for managing business oriented state? How is that state updated? Are those patterns consistent throughout your codebase? The biggest problem I see with the spaghetti codebases is they lack consistency in design.

Separation of concerns. What's the blast radius of any given change? If I change render logic, can it impact business logic, and vice versa? A big problem I see is that codebases do not appropriately separate these type of things out. Meaning the code is fragile and it's easy to introduce bugs inadvertently.

Anyway, I can list many points, but I'm on mobile now.

High level indicators would be: How quickly can new devs jump into the codebase? Is it easy to diagram and explain to others how the code is structured? How many bugs come out of your codebase? How quickly can you add new features to that codebase? What is the "blast radius", or is it possible to break something seemingly unrelated to a change you're making?

How do I know my codebase was good quality? I was extremely self critical when writing it and ended up rewriting it a few times before it was in a state I was satisfied with. Number of bugs are extremely low and feature velocity is high, relative to other areas of the code.

Not impossible. I learned from an engineer to go lay down in bed for 30 minutes and stare at the ceiling. It mostly resets the brain.

"you can work long, you can work hard, you can work smart, but you can ONLY pick 2 out of 3" - 90's programmers.

It's definitely possible with drugs :)

Which ones

Modaphanil and ephedrine are my drugs of choice for this.

But this set of conditions may not be widely accepted.

Say I had all those traits and you decided I was a 10x and now I've got my shiny label and I'm happy.

Then I come across someone else with a stricter definition and more requirements. They say I'm not 10x. Who do I believe?

Because there's no widely accepted standard, it just ends up being a game of finding the right people who like the qualities that you possess.

I don't think there needs to be a 10x label. It's not healthy to actually call people out as 10x or not publicly, I definitely agree with that.

But the truth is there are people who are insanely productive relative to median, and 10x is just a rough term to refer to them.

I do think it's worth paying those people 2x or more over paying 1x for two median devs. The trick is being able to identify them accurately... that relies on a well honed interview. There's risk in compensating people so highly if your judgment turns out to be wrong.

Certainly definitions won't be universal, but this type of person tends to do very well regardless of the environment/language etc.

Well the label could be anything and the same problems are still around. The same goes for being labeled a software craftsman or not. There's enough flexibility in how we assess peoples' skill that I can accidentally get the label if I just keep trying and the stars align. (This being a genuine, verifiable belief of someone else who's in the field and not me simply lying about what they said). With interviews, those can vary by company and the person giving it. It'd be more consistent if that was focused on a widely known credential and institution that's dedicated to assessing it. When I can take company and people's biases out of it, I can more objectively decide how good I am, what I need to improve on, and what level I should be working jobs at.

I do think certification and credentials can play a much bigger role than they do today.

No, I'm not talking about the BS certifications where you can spend a few hours reading a book and pass a multiple choice test... but something more "elite" and well rounded to give a quality stamp of approval.

It would be a great thing if candidates could go through one process, get that stamp of approval, and receive offers from X companies.. rather than interviewing 100 times. I understand the needs of companies are individual, but most candidates who are "strong" will do well interchangeably at these companies... if it's more of a generic development role.

The difficult thing is that the industry seems very stuck on algorithm and design problems as the sole focus of judging a candidate, which are pretty easy to game (design less so than algorithms). To identify these kind of people you really need to judge real world code and productivity... large projects with more elements of design.

Beyond technical skill, how hardworking is the person? How much will they care? Personality traits like these tend to matter a lot more than specific knowledge.

Anyway... this is kind of a meandering response, but I do believe that in the future we'll have a much better system for interviewing with less redundancy and higher accuracy. The goal is to maximize correlation between performance on the interview and performance "on-the-job".

IMO being "10x" or whatever is not really about productivity or skill, or rather, those are necessary but not sufficient. What it really comes down to is doing the work that makes other developers more productive. In other words, the 10x developer doesn't output ten times as many lines of code or complete ten times as many stories. They simply make everyone else's life a little easier by identifying and working on the important stuff.

And yet, you can make a lot of money hiring 10x.

>Software is still a new industry. I fully believe the companies that win in the long run will be the ones that have the best codebases (assuming software is what differentiates your business).

There are so many counter examples (Facebook, Microsoft to name two) to your point it simply can not be true.

So your view is that the long run is a few decades? :)

When I say long run, I'm talking hundreds of years. Software as an industry is not even one generation old yet. There are countless advancements that will come.

That being said, I don't consider social networks to fall into the class of an area where your product is the main differentiator. Network effects come first, product second.

Database products are a better example. JIRA another. It's the most widely used now but extremely slow and buggy. I sincerely doubt JIRA will be the winner 100 years from now if they don't improve technically.

In fact, a lot of software companies these days are just competing with traditional companies, but with better software. That's the whole selling point. E.g. fintech replacing banks, uber replacing taxis, insurance companies that make it easy to make claims etc. The bigger the tech disparity, the bigger the advantage.

Lets see!

> So your view is that the long run is a few decades? :)

I suspect that there's almost nothing going on at the Ford Motor Company that has even the remotest connection to anything technical that happened during the early years of the company's founding.

Sometimes, stuff just really does age out.

I guess it depends on how much leeway you can be given for using “almost nothing” and “remotest connection to anything technical”, but Wikipedia says Ford Motor Company was incorporated in 1903 and the first assembly line dates to 1913.

Engine blocks are still cast, sheet metal is still bent, pressed, and rolled so I think there is a lot of the original years still around. Yes, I’ll give you that there have been huge advances in sophistication, but it seems to me the early years are still present.

So many good points in this post. But I’ll nit pick this one anyway :-)

>technical debt is almost always created by accident through lack of experience rather than a conscious tradeoff.

I agree with this, at least early on in the business. But my experience is that many organizations eventually realize their technical debt. Sometimes the realization comes so far down the line that it feels like a monumental task to fix and then it does become a conscious decision. “We know the code base is shoddy and needs to be fixed, but the schedule/cost risk outweighs the quality risk.”

>Software is a new industry

In the early 1990s I heard it referred to as the “cave drawing days” of the industry. I wonder if it’s similar to how mechanical systems were in the early days of the industrial revolution. Lots of innovation, very few codified best practices related to pressure systems etc. It seems like the steam era of “move fast and break things”. Eventually, industry caught up and put together standards like ASME codes (or were regulated to do so). I’d like to see this more commonplace in software beyond its current adoption in a few industries

Well there are more productive programmers and less productive ones. It's pretty obvious to me. I don't like trying to quantify it as 10x or 20x, because it's kinda pointless to try and I don't view it as a scalar. I can't program graphics cards, but I can rebuild some of the data feeds that the Nasdaq pipes to hedge funds. I don't think a game developer could do what I do. It's the specialization that really counts, not the raw productivity, but raw productivity does count too.

In terms of your example, yes. The problem with software is that a bad architecture can complete hobble it and there are plenty of cases with unbeautiful code that makes a pile of money. I think there is artistry in software, but that wasn't the primary reason I compared it to music. I was trying to express the vastness of the domain and the range of complexity and how one could find a part in the search space that is simple enough to be called easy. Hence the garage band metaphor. Not everyone is going to be writing compilers. Some people don't want to throw their brain at a heap of complexity all day long. They just want to make pretty buttons that have a satisfying snappiness to them and call it a day.

What I'm trying to say is that there isn't one "programming" and for the people that need to hear "programming is easy, anyone can do it" in order to get the courage to try to take it up, I think that message is good. It doesn't mean they'll be working for Nasa on space probes, but they can make a comfortable living on low stakes stuff and have fun while they're at it.

I think the comparison is quite apt, given that the most popular artists are usually not the ones that have "mastered their craft" the most.

One can argue that White Stripes' 7 Nation Army or Andy Warhol's Campbell's Soup Cans are not feats of technical mastery by any stretch of imagination, but the key is that there is no correlation between technical difficulty and monetary value in the first place.

With that said, it's also worth mentioning that the world is vast enough that there's a bit of everything. Yes, there are companies making millions on the back of terrible excel spreadsheet hackjobs. But there's also Google's impressive infrastructure. And there's lichess.org running a hugely popular app on just a few servers. Success in itself it not one-dimensional.

> One can argue that White Stripes' 7 Nation Army or Andy Warhol's Campbell's Soup Cans are not feats of technical mastery by any stretch of imagination, but the key is that there is no correlation between technical difficulty and monetary value in the first place.

I see arguments like this a lot and it think it conflates two very different kinds of "technical difficulty"—design difficulty and execution difficulty.

Given the sheet music, any guitarist can play 7 Nation Army in a few minutes. It is not physically difficult to play. Also, it's not hard to come up with a completely original melody or artistic work. Just throw a couple of random unrelated things together.

But it is extraordinarily difficult to have such a mastery of composition and understanding of what music is already familiar to people to be able to find a melody that is both original and enjoyable to a wide variety of people. The level of cultural, musical, and historical knowledge required to do that is extremely difficult and rare.

It's like taking your boat to the world's most popular fishing hole and knowing where everyone else fishes so well that you can still manage to stake out an unvisited spot that hasn't been fished out and reel in a giant.

> But it is extraordinarily difficult to have such a mastery of composition and understanding of what music is already familiar to people

The problem with this argument IMHO is that if it were true, one would in fact be able to just bang out hits by developing such mastery. But music hits get popular primarily on the basis of luck, survivor bias, branding, etc, not strictly based on artists' composition skills. There are plenty of very talented one-hit wonders, and even criticisms that popular music is "manufactured" (implying that it is relatively easy to just follow some vague formula of 4/4, II-V-I chord progressions and lyrics about love and end up with something that resembles a hit).

Uuuuh, that's exactly how the music industry works. I think you might be surprised to learn how many hit pop songs were written by a very small community of artists, completely separate from the ever changing faces that perform them.

> if it were true, one would in fact be able to just bang out hits by developing such mastery.

Isn't this exactly what Max Martin has been doing for last 20 years?

I mean, it's certainly possible that he is one of a select handful of people that has mastered a skill that almost no one else in history has been able to.

But given how many musicians and producers exist and how utterly small is the percentage of people who are comparable to Max Martin, I think it's reasonable to speculate that his success might be partially/majorly attributed to factors of luck/survivorship bias/branding/popular-music-as-a-mass-produced-product I mentioned.

There's also a certain amount of positive feedback, I suspect - once you've had one hit, people will want you to write for them and, because it probably sounds hit-like (which stands to reason since your style has already been a hit), it'll stand a good chance of also being a hit which means more people will want you to write for them and rinse, repeat, cash cheques for 20 years, etc.

The big iffy assumption being made in your post is that any kind of foreknowledge of the outcome exists. In reality you're probably looking at survivorship bias at work. A thousand artists throw their output at a wall, one manages to stick and rakes in the big bucks.

If the same artist has several shits stuck on the same wall, it's statistically improbable that he's just lucky. White Stripes were not a one-hit wonder.

Price's Law is a thing. It states that the square root of all scientists publish half of all scientific papers.

If you have 25 programmers on a project, it is rather likely that 4-6 of them do at least half of the work. That would be a 5x developer.

Very often, productivity is linked to perseverance. If you socialize and only actually codes 1-4 hours per day, you likely are far less productive than the on-the-spectrum programmer who pounds out code for an entire work day (or longer).

It looks like you have a wrong metric for the productivity. A lot of projects failed just because developers created millions lines of code.

The performant developer solves problems quickly, without creating problems for others, i.e. he unloads burden from the project.

Seriously. We have hired a lot of people recently and the people that submit a five line PR make me happy and the fifteen file PRs make me sad.

I have slowly managed to train my colleagues that a PR should be "one thing". My team ends up doing a whole lot of internal tooling, so we're frequently creating "new small tool" and one colleague started by working away and only raising the PR when the toll was essentially done.

This, essentially, ends up with a PR review that takes hours to complete, only to end up with at least a few "changes required". Leading to updates, and a re-review, usually with enough time lapsed that the review ends up being "from scratch" (partially due to the size of the PR, partially due to the time lapsed).

We've now mostly converged to "start with a PR just setting the skeleton up and one testable function", meaning that what used to be a single monster PR now ends up as 5-15 PRs, each one much easier to review. Amusingly, this also tends to end up with things being completed faster.

> I don't disagree but the idea of equating software development with some sort of artistry also allows the existence of the 10x programmer as, you know, a more gifted artists. [...] The most horrendous application I ever worked on was a java servlet app where the original developers didn't understand thread safety.

The knowledge of thread safety is not an inborn thing nor issue of talent. It is literally issue of knowledge that you can acquire if you previously did not had it.

And companies can get away with bad code for quite a long.

> Whether any one of us believes in 10x'ers aside

I've met a lot of folks who didn't believe it... right until they met one.

> That application got the company to IPO

They got lucky they could IPO before scaling became an issue.

Just imagine Google not being able to scale. Or Facebook.

> I've met a lot of folks who didn't believe it... right until they met one.

That right there is the truth about 10x engineers. We have one in particular I will mention. Sometimes he is a 5x, and at other times he is 20x. This is true and measurable according to the number of tickets that get closed, stay closed, and test as correct. He doesn't read HN, stack overflow, fb, twitter, tiktok, blogs, or emails during work hours. He sits down and cranks out code.

> measurable according to the number of tickets that get closed, stay closed, and test as correct

10x engineers also have compounding effects. These are impossible to measure, but you'll notice them when you see them. They flat out write better code.

Better code fails gracefully, is easy to read and especially nice to extend. Juniors seems to magically be able to ship features really quickly on that particular codebase and onboard really fast. If you dig deeper you'll see the 10x giving hints and feedback.

There's artistry in mechanical engineering, electronics, etc., too.

Take a close look at various bridge designs, and you'll see the artistry.

Programming is craftsmanship.

At scale and with long-term projects it requires knowledge, mastery of tools, foresight, experience, intuition, creativity, planning and many judgement calls.

This is not special. The same is true for many other occupations. Be it carpentry, electrical engineering, finance or, yes, even marketing.

In a lot of ways it is easier than others, because (non-architectural) mistakes can be corrected a lot more quickly, and there is a plethora of (often free) learning materials, knowledge resources, tools and and projects to build on that other fields can only dream of.

I think many programmers have minimal experience with other jobs, and assume that coding is somehow more elevated or demanding than other professions, while the reality is quite different.

> I think many programmers have minimal experience with other jobs, and assume that coding is somehow more elevated or demanding than other professions, while the reality is quite different.

As someone who has worked in a few different fields, this x 100. There is nothing "special" about programming.

I would say there's nothing special about programming compared to other types of engineering.

But professions like Nursing are also quite rigorous in educational requirements, but nurses don't engage in the type of long-term planning required in engineering. I do think the plan-building aspect of engineering adds to the overall difficulty of the profession.

Following an existing flow-chart is different than building a flow-chart.

I agree and that gives you a better framework to improve yourself too. If you think about woodworking as an analogue you'll want to learn about new types of wood, new tools, woodworking design and history, contemporary woodworking design and technologies, try to make every chair you make more perfect than the last, etc.

There's no one true way to make a chair, it depends on who will use it and how you're feeling. Craftsmanship does include art in it.

Not all programming is craftsmanship.

Code like the Obfuscated C Contest is art. The code that orchestrates your cloud servers is more like engineering. Prototypes in language research is science. Coding competitions are sport.

Comparing it to engineering vs music is missing the point.

The keyword is craftsmanship.

I've graduated and have done work as an electrical engineer, and have become a programmer over the years for financial reasons. Whenever I do engineering or design work, I feel they really are very similar to programming. And they probably are similar to music, although I lack comparable proficiency in that field.

And the key insight for me was: the more you do any of this stuff, the better you become. The time you spend with thoughts about it, or practicing it, it slowly changes you. It changes the way you think, the way you approach the problems. You become experienced. And it does not seem to end, there are always new revelations, and you can always find fault in yesterdays work, that you could probably do a little better today.

I'm a self taught programmer with a engineering degree.

I never really did engineering as a career as my first job out of university was as a software developer.

What I remember from that time and why I think I picked up programming fairly easily was my engineering degree gave me the skills to think through a problem.

I never really had trouble planning out my software designs even though I had no formal training in that area.

So in that sense I agree that these two disciplines appear to be similar.

I put this down to the problem solving skills I learnt through my Engineering degree.

It's intriguing seeing how often we reach for metaphors when trying to define software engineering. Some say it's like music, others like painting, the crafts and so on. What often gets overlooked is that those areas are thoroughly anchored in the physical and sensorial world - one perceives their work and usually physically interacts with it.

For software, one sits most of the time in front of a glowing screen and the rest is drawing boxes and text on paper/whiteboards (plus meetings). Certainly doesn't sound as glamorous and one is left with imagining their work most of the time. That's why such comparisons fall flat and at least to me it seems that an attempt is being made at rubbing some "cool" on something that is typically perceived as uncool and for a regular human looks mind-numbingly boring.

So programming's not hard because it's like <arts/crafts>, but because it's abstract and mechanical and emotionless. It's an acquired taste which needs fertile ground to develop in, when most people understandably don't have that, not even for a simple stack of JS, HTML and CSS.

I wrote my first program in 1965, and have been programming since then. I got my first job in 1970 with a B.A. and a grand total of a one week course in FORTRAN. The job required writing Assembler on a 32K machine.

Still can't get it right :o)

> The more and more I code the more I see it closer to something like music than something like engineering.

For many years I've also made the comparison between programming and music. You can learn the theory (CS or music) in school, but to be truly great as either a programmer or a musician takes passion, obsession, and dedication. I'd actually rank obsession as being the most important trait, as it can drive the other two. I'm not saying obsession is always healthy, but it's clearly a key driver in the skills of elite performers in many disciplines.

I think the main reasons behind the similarities of the two is in ease of access and the rapid learning feedback loop. In both programming and music, you can buy enough gear for a few hundred bucks to experiment with your craft to your hearts content. In both, mistakes are cheap, if you play off key or write a bug you're not likely to damage anything in the real world and can get feedback to improve. In both, you can riff off the works of others easily to get inspiration and get up to speed with the latest developments. And feedback is fast, as your ear or your debugger will alert you to either successes or mistakes.

The above qualities basically make a recipe for quick and unbounded learning, which leads to exponential development of skills. This is a recipe for not only quick learning, but the building of intense obsession in the right mind, as the rapid feedback system fuels the brain's dopamine reward system. It's no wonder when we see a young person who's exposed to programming with plenty of free time that we're often amazed at what they create. The same is true of music.

A slight tangent, but my thoughts above are why I always ask people when/how they first learned to program during an interview. A new grad who's been obsessed with computers and coding since age 13 is going to run circles around someone who started in college because they thought it was kind of interesting and their friends told them how well pays. It's a simple question to ask, a nice ice breaker, and can provide a very useful signal for hiring if the interviewee exudes passion in telling you about their coding genesis story.

I think analogizing with structural engineering still fits more than you're giving credit for, at least in terms of how talent does or does not scale in the absence of a formal engineering education. My dad effectively rebuilt every part of our house with only "formal" training as a plumber. My great-grandfather built his house completely from scratch, himself, and picked cotton before that. But neither of them could have built a skyscraper. There's a difference between someone who can build stuff, even incredibly useful stuff, and a true engineer.

Software, for whatever reason, just tends to lionize and monetarily reward hackers over engineers. I'm not exactly sure why this is. Maybe we just get so much more to start with? If you wanted to put up a skyscraper or build another Brooklyn Bridge, you pretty much need to put together all of it. Only the land is there already. On the other hand, with software you can seriously stand on the backs of giants. Someone else already laid fiber cables beneath the oceans, put satellites with radios on them calibrated to deal with special relativity in space, processor makers basically use black magic to hide all of the terrible, inefficient coding we do and make it fast anyway, database engines, exponentially cheapening storage, and CDNs do so much of the heavy lifting of caching and delivering content, and we profit.

I guess skyscraper builders get some pre-existing infrastructure. They don't need to lay their own roads or build new electrical stations or steel mills.

But still, software feels like a business where a lot of people learn quickly how to build their own backyard tool sheds, then go apply to design skyscrapers and get mad when the interviewers expect them to know the principles of physics underlying how it is possible to get 100 stories of steel and glass to not fall over in the wind.

I’ve had a similar thought recently regarding music and programming (I studied music but now work in tech) but from a different perspective. The truly great work is imprecise. It’s not perfectly structured. It breaks the rules. You have to feel it instead of think about it directly. In fact trying to quantify it and make it perfect reduces the quality of the end result. You have to learn all the rules and then throw them away. The more and more I age the more I’m convinced we already have all the answers built in for anything we could wish to explore in this universe but our conscious is mostly incapable of accessing it.

So yes programming can be easy, even the hard stuff, but we can only fleetingly tap into the subconscious which allows it to be easy.

> I've been programming for a long, long time. Went to college for it when I was a pre-teen. The more and more I code the more I see it closer to something like music than something like engineering. Getting a little garage band together isn't hard. A couple years of practice and you and your friends can play at a little bar or at least at a high school shindig.

> The same is more or less true for programming. A simple stack of JS, HTML, and CSS is pretty easy to get going. And if you're content to make marketing sites for advertising companies or similar, then go nuts. That's your simple jam and you rock out on it as much as you like.

Nice point, beautifully laid out! Favourited and added to my quotes file!

Rather than music, I find a much better comparison in sports.

Football is easy. Anyone can gather friends in a court or park and kick the ball for a while. Kids and middle aged fathers do it all the time.

However not everyone can play professionally, say in a second or third division, and earn a living wage out of it.

And still less people make it to the top teams of the first division, becoming millionaires and celebrities.

The ratios are different, but these groups roughly map to people ability to code. Probably most people can "write code" to some extent. Few of those will be able to make a career out of it as professional developers. And yet a smaller number will make it to FANG and other top companies, making 6 figure salaries like it's nothing.

I agree and I’d say the semicolon days are about gone with all the automatic checks done on today’s code.

Compared to what I had to endure when I took my first CS class with Java 18 years ago, typo bugs are far fewer. Beginner programmers lives have been greatly improved by IDE enhancements. Almost too much. In code reviews, I’ve seen stuff that is a brand new language construct. When I ask the dev about it, it’s just something that the IDE suggested as an improvement. “The IDE told me to” is a little scary, but maybe not any worse than a stackoverflow post.

The difference between music and programming is that programmers seems to earn a lot of money. So a lot of untalented people want to be programmers. But not everyone is suited for programming and not everyone can be a good pianist. Imagine the state of music in a world with a lot of rich pianists and everyone wanting to be a musician.

> Went to college for it when I was a pre-teen

Does that mean you studied software when you were 11-12 years old (pre teen: before 13-19 y/o?), together with college students typically 19-25 years old? (Sorry if it's a silly question)

I audited a graduate level VCD course when I was 12 does that mean I can say I have been going to college for VCD since I was a pre-teen? What does it even mean to be a preteen in college?

> So when people say "programming is easy" what they really mean is that it's easier than most people expect it will be for the financial incentives it provides

This. Very well said.

> Fast feedback

That's what made me choose programming as career over other options available at the time. Good reminder after many years!

Consider that to make the majority of the most successful startups of the last twenty years -- Facebook, AirBnB, Uber, Twitter, Pinterest, etc. -- you don't need much more programming ability than you'd get from a six month boot camp. And that's not just to make an MVP, it's to get them into the tens of millions of dollars of profitability. If that doesn't qualify as easy, it's hard to think of what in life would qualify.

Five out of however many hundreds of thousands tried doesn't make it easy. It may not take technical mastery, but it still takes luck. Arts aren't necessarily different. Lil Nas X spent a couple hours on a cheap camera with a few friends throwing a video up on TikTok and suddenly has Billboard's top single of all time. I don't want to crap on the guy's talent. His songs are catchy. But he didn't exactly have to cut his teeth at Julliard. But you don't see people saying truckers should learn to sing and dance.

Today is error-RPC-no-connections-available-but-I-restarted-everything-I-need-a-beer day XD

Done properly, data science is hard.

> I said that the programming field is a fertile ground for beginners, and it is. But what’s fertile for grain is fertile for weeds too, even moreso. And we need to talk about these people, taking advantage of the fertile ground.

Yikes. What a gross, self-congratulatory rant. The author tries to defend against the term "gatekeeping" by getting out ahead of it, but that doesn't change how deeply exclusionary the result is.

It doesn't even stick to a specific complaint; it jumps around to different things that emotionally feel related in the author's mind but aren't actually. First we're talking about boot camps, then we're talking about how StackOverflow is "the scariest thing that happened to the programming community in the past 10 years", then we're talking about "diversity" speakers at conferences riling up "mobs" in some kind of conspiracy against the author and people like him?

Buried under all of this (literally, at the very end) is perhaps a poorly-executed attempt to tell beginners something of value, that it may not be easy now, but you can push through and it will get better. But I don't see any actual beginner reaching that part before getting discouraged by the rest into doubting whether they should be in this career field at all.

You left off the last sentence of that paragraph, which made me interpret the overall sentiment very differently:

> I said that the programming field is a fertile ground for beginners, and it is. But what’s fertile for grain is fertile for weeds too, even moreso. And we need to talk about these people, taking advantage of the fertile ground. And where there’s plenty of beginners, there’s plenty of people taking advantage of them.

That is, I interpreted "These people, taking advantage of fertile ground" not to mean subpar newbies who can't cut it (which is how I read your interpretation), but instead to mean the snake-oil salesman/huckster types who take advantage of these newbies by sort of implying "hey, just come to our 30 day bootcamp and you'll be a programmer, just like those programmers who make top dollar at Google and Microsoft!"

I actually generally largely agreed with article, and I didn't find it gross at all. Yes, programming does have a low barrier to entry, but to become a true expert at it takes the same level of skills and preparation as, say, a doctor or scientist. But you don't see any "Become a doctor in 30 days!" bootcamps out there trying to convince people that "Hey, anyone can become a doctor!"

The next paragraph:

> There are many ways this happens; some of them are not even aware that they do it, they are just instinctive hustler that oversell their own skills. Usually you see them: two years of experience in software development, writing books and giving advice, sometimes at a hefty price. You see them at conferences, or with articles promoted, or with other types of media, sometimes playing the diversity card, at other times the beginner card, pushing their way in and taking advantage of credulous mass of beginners.

So the "weeds" are still beginners, just beginners who the author perceives as overselling their skills. That isn't much better, in my view.

It might be unpopular to say, but I think underqualified people giving unearned advice, and flooding the job market, is indeed a huge problem. I don't think it's gatekeeping to call it that.

> underqualified people giving unearned advice, and flooding the job market

If they're speaking at conferences and getting published and working on projects that are out of their depth, then it's on the conferences and publishers and employers to identify them as underqualified.

If they're "flooding the job market" and working on things that are appropriate for their skill level - which I would guess the majority are - then that's a good thing, even if their skills are at the low end.

So you're saying that conferences and publications should act as.. gate-keepers? It sounds more like you disagree more with the tone of the article than the actual substance.

You're intentionally giving a bad-faith interpretation.

The term "gate-keeper" is colloquially used to refer to those who needlessly prevent or discourage others from participating at all in an entire hobby/career-field/community.

Conferences and publications and employers should absolutely filter candidates by their actual ability to do the job they're being paid to do; nobody in their right mind would suggest otherwise. But this is a) a temporary condition of the individual's ability at that particular time, b) relative to the specific task at hand, and c) just one piece of what it means to participate in the field as a whole. A person might not currently be fit for programming job X but simultaneously be capable of programming job Y, and in the future they might even become capable of X. They might not even be capable of any paid programming work at all, but in the meantime should still be welcome to learn and to hack and to participate in the community.

Of course I didn't really need to explain all that, because you knew what I meant and chose to frame it differently, but there you go.

> The term "gate-keeper" is colloquially used to refer to those who needlessly prevent or discourage others from participating at all in an entire hobby/career-field/community.

Disagreed. That term is frequently used for anyone that isn't an overly positive cheerleader.

And you're intentionally giving a bad faith representation to the author.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Just came off as an agry rather pointless rant to me.

Why is this always discussed only in relation to programming? Is being a doctor hard? How about an architect? Lawyer? Welder? Car mechanic? Airline pilot? Are they all gatekeepers if they say their job is hard?

There are different jobs labeled as programming, some easier, some harder.

Where does this narrative come from that programming at all professional levels must be easy for everyone, else you are a gatekeeper? Is it anxiety about future automation and the idea that the only remaining jobs will be programming?

The answer to that is in the article. The information is accessible. It is possible to become a programmer without any formal certification, all the information is out there.

AFAIK all the jobs you mentioned need a formal certification. You can't become a doctor without going to med school. You can't become a lawyer without passing the bar.

Even if you don't (not sure about a car mechanic, depending on the country), it's a lot a harder to get your hands on a car to tinker with than it is to download some framework and watch a get started video.

That's what the author said with programming is accessible. It is very easy to get started which is often misrepresented as "it's easy".

No one would say "becoming a doctor is easy" because you're never gonna be a doctor from online documentation and YouTube videos so there is no incentive to frame it that way.

Alright. Programming is like soccer. The barrier of entry is very low, but it doesn't mean every poor Brazilian kid will be a football genius. But they sure won't be golf world champion. I grew up relatively poor in Hungary. Programming has been a great path to a good job for me, while it would have been more difficult to earn the same as a lawyer without connections.

Programming levels the playing field compared to gatekept jobs where you must be born into a dynasty to really make it. In that sense it's easy. But it will still only be a part of the population who are well suited to do it.

> it doesn't mean every poor Brazilian kid will be a football genius

This analogy always comes up in relation to programming, but I think it's not quite right: you don't have to be the equivalent of a "football genius" to be an effective programmer. If there was the same market for soccer players as there were for programmers, a lot more people would be professional soccer players - there are so few, and the ones that make it are so far ahead of everybody else, because there just aren't that many spots available.

Well, what regulates the amount of available spots in professional football? Why can't people create additional teams and play exciting matches that draw paying audiences? Is the bottleneck that spectator attention is already maxed out?

But yes, the analogy is faulty if the bottleneck in football is the availability of the spots, because in programming the bottleneck is rather the availability of good enough new hires. We may be around the point where CS programmes have grown so much over the years that the marginal additional student may not have that good potential any more (out of a combination of motivation and talent). But a potential reserve talent to tap into could be women, but attracting them to programming has been an uphill battle and is a can-of-worms topic why.

> what regulates the amount of available spots in professional football?

You're only allowed 11 people on the pitch per side. Believe me, if it were possible to replace Ronaldo with a thousand less-skilled players paid a fraction of his wages, somebody would have tried it.

You could even suggest hiring them for fractions of a match on an internet employment brokerage platform. Footballr.

Okay, I agree it's not a perfect analogy but the football:golf = programming:law still holds I think.

But I do agree that spectator sports are more winner-takes-all than programming jobs.

To be clear - I agree that programming is hard (or else I'm REALLY stupid), but comparing programming ability to athletic ability always seemed wrong because the world needs WAY more programmers than it needs athletes. I'd guess that there are more professional programmers in the world than professional athletes of any kind. If the "market" for athletes were as broad as the market for programmers, you'd see a lot more comparatively mediocre athletes making a comfortable living at it.

I'd say what regulates it is that the quality bar is so high, that the low level is just not exciting. We've become accustomed to the high quality, and now expect the extreme performance and wild stunts the pros manage to pull off.

The same happened with other artistic endeavors. Few people these days really want to see an amateur sing or play an instrument. We have so much high quality music that doing it "okay" doesn't really cut it anymore. Before an okay player/singer might have added to a party. Today, most of the audience will be just waiting for it to end and for somebody to put on some decent, commercial music.

Isn't this happening in programming too? Just like anyone can play Ed Sheeran on their wedding and pay one guy to handle the equipment, companies can buy (or download for free) lots of plumbing tools and frameworks made by the few star companies. It's not like the n+1th website needs professional programmers. For tons of (otherwise offline) businesses tweaking a WordPress site is more than enough.

And just like you can watch Ronaldo on TV from half way around the world instead of watching your town's crappy teams, you can also use Google and Microsoft software and services instead of hiring someone from your town. Even very custom software needs fewer and fewer people due to existing tooling.

So the bar is going higher and higher in programming too.

I don't think it's quite the same.

I'm saying sports, arts and music got to such heights, that an ordinary person can consume nothing but the best 0.1%. This in turn means the demand for the rest has plummeted, and being the guy who can play guitar "okay" doesn't really excite anybody anymore. There's a market at the very high end, and nobody wants to pay a cent for anything below that.

Programming is going the opposite way, if anything. There's lots and lots of programming grunt work that just needs to be done by somebody and doesn't take any particular skill. There's rather less need for wizards able to squeeze every possible bit of functionality into 64K, because at this point resources are cheap.

At this point a programmer can get by with being moderately competent and doing little other than gluing frameworks together. Things like music are the opposite. Mere competence is nowhere near enough.

Programming itself is relatively low on the ladder. Generic CRUD, and clue code doesn't require very specialised skills.

On other hand for that work to be useful proper software engineering and architecture is needed. And these hopefully take input from computer science.

But to effectively use the plumbing tools, the companies need programmers! And in the near future, there will not be any "automation" of your complex business needs. Every business is different, and every business has different programming needs. At a certain level of scale and complexity, i.e. no longer a mom and pop shop, you need to hire programmers.

> Why can't people create additional teams and play exciting matches that draw paying audiences? Is the bottleneck that spectator attention is already maxed out?

People do create additional teams and play exciting for them matches. That is how amateur leagues work. People create whole additional sports and compete among themselves in them.

The spectator attention is really maxed out, because spectating sport is massively social thing. People do it because of excitement of who win, but massive part of it all is being part of culture, having common topic with friends, feeling like member of big fan club etc.

You don’t have to be a football genius to make a living coaching a school team, etc. I think you are being needlessly pedantic

Programming is not like soccer and golf, because people with great talent and skill for soccer and golf are all over the media. People who do not have major skill can look at them and compare their own skill level.

But I think the OP (unintentionally) makes a telling point, which is that accessibility is confused with simplicity.

We're seeing this in medicine now. Anyone can Google whatever so they're go to their doctors with Dunning Kruger on max and and say things that are really really stupid.

Or they try to understand what's happening. And because they're spending hours on something the doctor spends a few minutes on, they - occasionally - manage to have an insight the doctor misses.

Either way, medicine isn't quite the ineffably mysterious occupation it used to be. Of course it's not really any less complex, but the wall has been breached a little.

The arts are similar. It's easy to buy some paint, so everyone has a go. It's easy to buy a guitar or synth and a DAW, so everyone has a go.

The skill and learning required to be an expert becomes invisible because beginners try things, get unsophisticated results that make them happy but are a long way short of the real thing, and think "Well, that's not so hard."

The problem isn't verbal gatekeeping, it's the lack of media representation of high levels of skill and professionalism. They're either portrayed as unimaginably mysterious, as soapy and trite (see most legal dramas), or as "And you can too..."

There are few realistic depictions of the skill, knowledge, and practice required to be a professional in any field. Or of the insights and perceptions that professionals experience, but which untrained people don't.

> There are few realistic depictions of the skill, knowledge, and practice required to be a professional in any field.

YouTube is pretty good for this, both educational channels and edutainment (like Computerphile) and candid videos of people sharing their professional experience. Or code-alongs etc.

Fair point. It's all relative. By that definition it's much easier to become a programmer than to become a lawyer. 100% agree.

Programming has a very appealing second property: there are tons of good paying jobs out there.

And I think this combination of "you can get started super easy" and "you will earn above average" are two dangerous properties.

It's definitely the poor man's "good job" (I say that as a poor man) - med school is just not accessible to most people. At the very least, it's not accessible to the poor without laser-focus and being very lucky for about 15 years between about 15 and 30. Oh, and living on scraps.

> "because you're never gonna be a doctor from online documentation and YouTube videos"

You're not gonna become a legal doctor, but I assure you that online you have many many information and videos that teach you the same as they teach you in university. You just need to organize them - and probably some are already part of current pandemic forced online classes

The complicated part may be to obtain corpses to make the practices... /s

I would argue that those corpses(or whatever it is they do in med school) are quite important. I don't think any amount of "book-smarts" can override actual practical experience. At least for me, I can't imagine I would be able to write a program if I had read several books but never opened a code editor. I believe it must be similar for doctors. Even if you read about lots of diseases and their symptoms, how do you go about diagnosing diseases with complex, overlapping attributes without any kind of experience besides what you read in a book to relate to?

Yeah, that's the reason there is an `/s` in the comment, it was an ironic joke ;)

> You can't become a lawyer without passing the bar.

In states where you don't need to go to Law school and anyone can pass the bar, doesn't this make the field accessible? The bar cost $100-$1300 depending on the state + travel costs which is not that far from a good laptop cost to do any meaningful programming.

You'll probably need a $200 laptop and an internet connection. You can do paralegal freelancing in the same way you can do small programming jobs.

Edit: Writing is also accessible. Accounting is also accessible, though if you are becoming a CPA you need some college credits. Online marketing is accessible. Trading is also accessible. All of these can be done from the comfort of your couch and only need a laptop with an Internet connection.

There are only 4 US states that allow you to take the bar without going to school: California, Vermont, Virginia, Washington.

These states don't allow a random to come from nowhere and take the bar exam. They require you to be an apprentice at a law firm:


This is CA, for example:

* Four years studying in a law office

* 18 hours per week

* Five hours of direct supervision

* Monthly exams

* Bi-annual progress reports

* Supervising attorney must have five years of active law practice in California

(you can see the reqs for other states in the article)


According to this article: https://priceonomics.com/how-to-be-a-lawyer-without-going-to...

Only 60 apprentices in the nation took the bar in the year discussed. 17 passed.

I'm not sure if I'd call that accessible.

Afaik, it is extraordinary rare to pass the bar without going to Law school. That test is quite difficult.

But that's beyond the point, right? The question is whether it is accessible. Which for some states it is, and could be done by reading material. The same can be said about programming and software development.

My point precisely is that you can't pass just by "reading material". It is too hard for that.

Test being difficult is not a problem, we want our lawyers to be competent, after all. The more important part is if it is fair. In Poland bar exam had been famous for near impossible questions, which were only answered correctly by applicants that knew them in advance, which typically were family members of already practicing attorneys/judges.

The information is accessible for any other profession really - you talk here about politics not about knowledge.

You can learn to be a doctor or lawyer on the internet for sure. Can you practice it ? It depends. Some self learned programmers can't get a job in some companies too because they don't have formal education.

You absolutely don't need a formal certification to be a mechanic or welder.

I'm not sure. I've been both a pilot and a software engineer and the narratives are very different. I've also helped people get into both fields (owned a flight school, mentored programmers).

I don't think I've head anybody say "Anyone can be a pilot!". Becoming a pilot is inaccessible. There are medical qualifications. It's expensive. A degree helps a lot (or is required) for airline jobs.

Self-limiting beliefs keep _some_ people from being pilots. So there are outreach events (Young Eagles being one) that introduce people to flying. The military recruits at events. But it's more this "maybe you could be a pilot. just consider it." vibe.

Programming is accessible (as the article points out). I spent less than $200 in materials to get a good job as a software engineer. (Throw in $500 for a computer if you want). Self limiting-beliefs make up a much larger component (but not all!) of why people can't become professional software engineers.

I think this leads to people overreaching during the outreach phase. If it's only a few hundred dollars, focus and time, then the only thing stopping you is yourself! Well, no.

Let's just start at the left end of the curve and acknowledge there are adults who can't count to five. They're humans, they're people, they're part of "anybody", but they absolutely will never be programmers. And then it's just a spectrum from there.

The reality (like most realities) is more complex than can what fit on a sticker. Some people think they can't program, but could. You don't have to be great at math, but it can help and they're similar mindsets. An expensive education isn't required, but helps with careers.

Programming is hard. But maybe you can do something harder than you think.

The reason why it always comes up is because programmers are relatively well paid yet nobody really understands what we do.

Therefore you get these really silly memes such as if a factory worker's job is outsourced, you can just retrain them to be a programmer. Or the only reason why some downtrodden group is not a programmer is because they were prevented by someone from being a programmer.

The thing that is ridiculous about the memes is that programming is the only field that is completely clear of gatekeepers. You don't have to go to college to be a programmer - the top programming coursework is available online for free (or nearly free). If you want to be credible as a programmer, there are plenty of open source projects that would welcome you. Compare that to doctors or lawyers which really do need college degrees and certification.

I feel like this is also top-down status anxiety from the traditionally high-status people (lawyers, doctors, academics, managers etc.) who really don't like that these prole nobodies are suddenly making good money, without being properly embedded in the elite caste and their manners. So they keep kicking and biting down to say how what we do is really just some blue-collar monkeying around that any janitor could do starting tomorrow, and the real, hard, serious jobs are still in their realm.


Doesn't help that a lot of prominent figures are also drop outs (Zuckerberg, Gates, Wozniak, Jobs, Musk, the list goes on).

Doctors insist on having everyone call them "Dr" and each-others too. They get their prestige from their tittles.

Meanwhile Bill Gates is just... Bill Gates. No prefix needed!

It's not clear of gatekeepers, they're just moved to a different point in the process, and scattered about the industry. You don't hear about doctors being given a mystery patient and forty-five minutes to save their life using only a whiteboard; once you've got the qualifications, they're not subject to anything like the same level of challenge.

"You don't hear about doctors being given a mystery patient and forty-five minutes to save their life using only a whiteboard"

That's actually a pretty accurate description of what doctors have to do, at least in the UK. For the first nine years after finishing medical school, doctors have to take a series of exams, including written exams and practical tests, which are primarily diagnosing and proposing treatments for real ("mystery") patients. This is a centralised process, rather than ad-hoc tests at every interview, but doctors do have to continue demonstrating their competence during their careers.

The centralization is the critical difference, though. Lots of professions have ongoing exams. Programming is different in that there's no institution to set the exams, so instead we have ad hoc tests of dubious reliability, repeated for every interview.

Doctors have to take board exams every couple years to stay licensed.

That's an interesting point. How are doctors evaluated if they move to a new city or something? How do they know if the candidate is a good cardiologist? Is it purely based on their CV and their previous roles? I admit it's absurd to imagine that a cardiologist would be asked to label parts of the heart (~fizzbuzz) on a diagram at the interview. I also don't think they look at outcome stats of their patients.

Or is it mainly based on who they know and who recommends them?

Maybe the different in processes means that their diploma, medical license, and other certifications means they've been effectively whiteboarded already and do not require re-testing along those same lines.

Would be interesting to consider if it's possible to administer a whiteboarding exam on programmers once, and then consider them solid on the concepts tested if they pass. And if not, then why? Does that mean whiteboarding as it is practiced now is insufficient? Because it certainly seems like for engineers who switch jobs every 2-5 years, they have to be whiteboarded again even if they've had prior experience, even at larger corporations known for rigorous interview practices.

It's as if this industry lacks confidence in its own employment standards, unlike the medical, legal, and other accredited fields.

Another example is language certificates. Maybe less well known to the monolingual English speakers here, but jobs in non-English speaking countries often have the requirement to speak English for business contact, to read professional reference material etc. There are many exams and certificates (local ones, or international ones, like TOEFL, IELTS, etc.), and they are nice on a CV, but they will always do a short test if you can actually speak the language. Passing a standard test is not always enough.

It may also be the fact that doctoring is more about keeping a large amount of facts and experiences in mind as condensed expertise, while programming is more about raw intelligence and solving novel problems analytically (although this sounds a bit pretentious and self-important, I know). Cardiology is very unlike logic puzzles. Now sure, day-to-day programming may also not be much like logic puzzles, hence the endless criticism of whiteboard leetcode interviews.

> How are doctors evaluated if they move to a new city or something?

Depends which border they cross. Then there's a lot of red tape and regulation by the local cartel to deal with.

I think the question might be "why might someone gatekeep at all?"

As a software developer, I love working with developers that are competent, and especially if I'm learning a lot just by being on projects with them. I do not love working with developers who actively decrease the quality of the code base because they do not understand what quality is. Now, that can be relative, and subjective. I'm quite open to junior developers trying things, asking questions, requesting code reviews, etc. But some people get a senior title and a confidence about their work, and charge ahead generating extra work for those around them. So I'd rather such people were, perhaps, not in the field at all!

In general, though, I would like to encourage lots of people to try programming. From my perspective, it's super empowering, interesting, deep and can be a great career choice. Try it, and if it interests you, and you find yourself driven to improve, learn new things, and seek mastery, we're really going to enjoy having you here in the field with us.

There are aspects of programming that almost anyone considering the field could try and learn and see some success at. But it helps to understand that you may discover your own limits (whether by talent, motivation, or opportunity) sooner or later in the field, because there are aspects that are much less approachable. Do you want to spend countless hours preparing for algorithmic whiteboard interviews? Do you want to bury your head in code while stepping meticulously through a debugger on a squeegee hunt for an edge case? Do you want to optimize relentlessly when the scenario requires it?

If software is eating the world, we'll need a lot of developers. And we'll want some that are happy to do grunt work while others forge into the most treacherous waters. But we don't want you to think that all software development is easy, because it's not.

> I think the question might be "why might someone gatekeep at all?"

We'd always go through the same thing with folks who were new to interviewing with a candidate who couldn't quite cut it.

In the following discussion they'd be hesitant to say no and maybe go into how they seemed nice or whatever. Then we'd ask "Ok, would you want them starting on your project with you tomorrow?" Well, no...

I'd venture this guess: because programming is presented everywhere as something easy, with a ton of "hello world" tutorials which don't even begin to scratch the surface. "Everyone can do it" is thrown left and right. Man are they in for a surprise, when they are introduced to tons of poorly written legacy code used by, say, critical medical systems. Think spaghetti code and text-file interfaces with dozens of systems but on a whole new level, likes of which is hard to even imagine.

Damn right, programming is hard, and it is getting harder with every line of code people write.

Note: in this example, I bunched programming with maintaining together. If you only write code for new features without taking into account existing or legacy code, you're a lucky son of a gun.

> I'd venture this guess: because programming is presented everywhere as something easy

I'd say that's an overreaction to the default presentation where coders are genius wizard wunderkind hackers from the movies. I don't know about your experience, but whenever I say I'm a programmer (or more directly translated "informatician") in a mixed group, everyone thinks that' must be rocket surgery.

Perhaps kids in specific countries now grow up being told that it's easy, but I think the 25-30+ years old cohort thinks programming is hard and only for the really smart people.

> whenever I say I'm a programmer

It's funny to see how different reactions in different cultures are.

In India, being a programmer will be looked at with exhaustion and judgement. Sorta,"Oh you too? Get in line."

I agree that kids are now growing up being told that it's easy. Here's a possible scenario:

1. we tell kids it's easy in order to get them interested

2. those who are interested, learn with time that it isn't as easy but love it anyway

3. those that are not interested, which is probably the majority, still go home thinking it's easy

I have found welding to have a similar community mindset to programming, for some people it's a job, for some it's art, most people think it's too hard for them, getting into it is easy and mastering it is hard.

Car mechanics too, run of the mill mechanics shop doing oil changes doesn't require that much to be competent at, but that's barely scratching the surface. Within the mechanic profession and you can go all the way from oil changer to mechanical engineer. Consider motorsport workshops, specialist restoration workshops, custom fabrication, aero design, engine building, machining, performance wiring, ECU tuning. It's a huge topic.

I find that is the case with almost anything though. Very few things are all that shallow. I have to remind myself of that if I disregard something someone enjoys. Sports fans? Yeah some of it could be shallow, but sports nerds go hard, there is crazy depth to sports fandom. Same with TV shows, video games, telephone pole enthusiasts.

So I guess my overall point is, the question "Is X job hard?" isn't really answerable, since we don't know exactly what part of the job the person is targeting from the question.

The people who are doing the work in programming are not assertive on average and are prone to be taken advantage of.

This is not a criticism; in a way you need to isolate yourself from realities of human politics to be successful in the field.

So in the last decade many socially dominant people who smelled the money have invaded open source. They have realized that you can make a living by posing as team leads and not doing much.

The real workers have let them in, have given them power and are now facing the consequences (ha, finally we can use that term, too!).

Other professions like law and medicine aren't remotely as naive. They are acutely aware of power struggles, protecting their professions and won't let this happen.

Completely agree. If I had a dime for every project owner, project manager, team lead, or <insert made-up job title> I’ve worked with who has absolutely no technical experience or knowledge I’d have over a dollar already.

These people invariably majored in something like english, dance, or music studies and then wind up doing project management because, as you pointed out, they’re after the money and no one is stopping them.

Invaded open source? I can't think of any open source projects not run by programmers.

Our profession is misunderstood by the public, and some effort is required to let people know that this is in fact high-skill, demanding work.

Recently, a non-technical executive berated me for not working faster. I wanted to tell him, "would you say that to your accountant, who just worked an 80-hour week to help you meet your obligations on time, continuing to receive new spreadsheets all the while?"

Actually, often you can tell him. It is way harder to get fired than many technical people think.

Key insight. In a field with such a deficit of excellence, you can’t be exploited without your own buy in. Except maybe with certain classes of visa troubles.

I think this is typically heard in response to people suggesting "learning to code on the side". You don't hear suggestions of "learning to become a lawyer/doctor on the side". Why is that?

I guess it's probably a combination of software development not requiring a license and people believing that it's easy to learn.

Writing software is closer to learning how to draw or how to carve wood.

It’s a thing you can “do” over the weekend, it’s fun, and it’s practical.

After writing hello world you can call yourself a programmer, which sounds impressive.

It’s much harder to even get to hello world for a doctor or a lawyer.

Of course, there’s a long road to doing it well.

I can call myself an artist for having used a paintbrush before, but I’m not actually an artist by any sane definition.

Anecdotal but I know a few people who became lawyers on the side by studying the graduate diploma in law part time and then changing careers. It’s not as common, but it’s not as rare as you’d imagine!

You can become a mechanic or a pilot on the side though. Even a paramedic.

Maybe the difference is that most/all (I don't know about welders, but I guess) of those jobs have literal gatekeepers, i.e. you need some certification to do it.

There's licensing for hairdressers in most states - without having checked, I guarantee you there's certifications for welders.

There are definitely certifications for welders, especially if you need to weld something that human lives depend on.

The important welders.

> Is being a doctor hard?

I have a friend who is a surgeon who says he hardly uses anything he learned in medical school and that he could teach a carpenter to do his job. (I think he is exaggerating a bit, but it's a funny anecdote).

My wife is a physician, but not a surgeon.

Most of medicine is relatively routine. A surgeon's skill isn't so much in the 99% of cases, but the 1% that have adverse outcomes. More importantly, their skill comes in identifying the possibility of adverse outcomes and preventing them from ever happening.

Me and you could easily be taught to do a routine surgery, like an appendectomy. However, we wouldn't be able to identify if something requires more treatment or prevent a patient from dying if things don't go perfect.

Isn't it very similar for programmers? I don't get paid >100k for knowing how to create a button with boostrap and jQuery, but rather for the 1% of the time where I need to do something 1000x more complicated

Yes. It's the same for a lot of fields.

Surgery is very specialized knowledge.

I'm sure he's using the fundamentals he learned in med school more than he thinks, but yeah everything in psychiatry, pediatrics and obstetrics most likely not.

> programming at all professional levels must be easy for everyone, else you are a gatekeeper

I've literally never heard anybody say this. Best I can tell it's a straw-man the author has stood up.

Part of the problem is the ambiguity of the words "easy" and "hard", which would be a valid discussion to have, but the OP didn't really seem interested in that aspect, and chose instead to interpret things in the least-charitable way possible.

I think it's literally because those other professions have strong gate-keeping institutions (licenses, etc), and programming doesn't. For better or worse I think that influences the perceived difficulty and prestige. (Note, I'm not suggesting that we need gate-keeping institutions, just that they do have an effect on how professions are seen).

I think programmers are also sort of at fault for this. How many people try to increase their perceived status by talking about how some hard thing is actually super easy to them? While it might elevate their status among their peers, it reduces the status of the profession as a whole (granted in microscopic increments, but still, if a project manager hears "this is easy" all the time, they're going to start thinking these things are easy).

Finally, I also think as a profession we don't do a great job of just presenting ourselves as professionals. How many coders (myself included) tend to look like slobs all the time? If you watch TV, all the other professions look sharp, and anyone tech related tends to look like they just climbed out of bed. Just saying, perception matters a ton.

I honestly think that there are many people who exaggerate how difficult programming is. And people really like to think that if you already dont know a lot, then you are naturally crappy and cant learn. The professions you mentioned require a lot of learning. The expectation is that you go to school knowing what high school taught you, then you learn basics and then you continue learning on your own. The expectation is that there is learning curve.

I think I am good programmer. When I was younger and considering it as a profession, I was told that it is hard and that I should think twice seriously before comitting myself to it. That som of the guys that are already coding are very good and I will compete against them.

There is gatekeeping related to claimed difficulty. There is also perception that either you know it or not, but that you should not expect learning curve.

Also, passionate people of all kinds of professions trying do this exact thing. Whether art or tech or sport, adults go out of their way to signal to kids that "you can do it too, join us doing this thing".

It's not usually an issue with those professions, where there are more reliable mechanisms both to observe the consequences of not being good enough, and to reject those who would produce such work. Also, there is zero barrier to entry for programming. These are powerful differences.

>there are more reliable mechanisms both to observe the consequences of not being good enough.

Are there? Doctors are one of the main causes of death nowadays and it doesn't appear to exist many pushbacks.

There aren't people out there saying those jobs are "easy" and anyone can do it in the way we have for programming. So why would it be discussed with those other jobs?

The examples you give in support of your thesis are strange. The idea that programming is hard is about as pretentious and wrong as saying that being a doctor, architect, lawyer, welder, car mechanic, or airline pilot is hard.

Almost anyone with a basic level of intelligence and the willingness to put the efforts into it can learn any of the above professions, and programming is not different from them. It's not hard, although there are some hard areas you'd like to get done by a CS graduate or an engineer.

There are professions that are hard or simply require some special and maybe rare talent, but like most other professions programming is not one of them.

What? You enumerated some of the hardest professions in the world and dismissed them as "not hard"! How many car mechanics you've seen turning into architect? How many developers you've seen becoming lwayers? How many lawyers became doctors?

If one doesn't have drawing talent and sense of perspective, becoming an architect is almost impossible. No amount of work will fill for that.

If one gets lost while moving in 3D, no way they'll become an airline pilot, ever.

If one doesn't get mechanics and principles of how cars/engines works and has a talent for working with literally dozens of tools, they won't become a car mechanic ever.

Some of the hardest professions? You've got to be kidding me...

OP could have mentioned sculptors, theoretical physicists, athletes, or singers but chose to list completely normal professions. Just like programming.

But the biggest mistake of this pretentious article and the whole thread is to talk of programming as if that was some uniform profession. It's ridiculous to assume that making an iPhone app requires the same skill set as programming a rocket guidance system. Maybe the self-proclaimed gatekeepers of "programming" like the author of this blog post should start by actually creating a profession called "programming" before they try to gate-keep it.

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact