Therefore, if you plan to comment in threads like this, make sure you're up to date on the site guidelines, that you have something thoughtful to say, and are coming from a place of curiosity. That's the core value of this site.
Extra tip: if you're hot under the collar, wait to cool down before posting. These issues are intense. It's easy and all too human to get activated, so we each need to do some internal processing before taking to the comments for discussion.
One trend I'm noticing more and more is that India is taking a leaf out of China's books and paying less and less attention to the criticism western institutes. The next decade when India will rise in stature will make it more and more flippant about such issues. After all if any party (INC or BJP) that rules India, has enough clout and resources to enrich themselves and benefit from the rising fortunes of the country. Western commentators will be used as a classic "Us vs them" trope to further these claims.
You may see from the press that China has largely turned a blind eye to western criticism but in reality in all aspects of societal building we are adopting / importing more and more strategies from the west on a daily basis. I'm surprised when I talked to my childhood friends (some of whom are deep in administrative roles or important civil servants) their management is rapidly learning from the west (probably without them realising), may it be government bodies or private companies. The policies (at least on the paper) are getting closer and closer to what I can observe here in Europe. When I grew up in the 90s it was simply chaotic.
Secondly, what I consider a major difference is that India has the ability to converse well with west whereas chinese diplomats / communication points are extremely poor and belong in an era with standards so lagging behind of modern times. Small proportion of people do read english but not to a point (especially the elites) to comprehend and incorporate western opinions well into a meaningful dialogue. All other asian countries are light years ahead of us.
I'm not saying however who is better and not, all the symptoms maybe similar but there could be more nuances for a better understanding of the complex and yet inflaming situations.
One major difference is that Indian right uses the criticism from western media to it's advantage, and helps bolster it's position in the game of West vs East.
Of course there are glaring issues a lot of people care but never properly addressed such as the unfair pension scheme for gov body employees, which have been brought up every year and not resolved yet.
The process has been in progress for decades since Independence. The process was accelerated since the 1980s. It's more like the cultural shift is now complete.
A roll back is now impossible.
As Ruchir Sharma points out , India is a postcolonial society which is unlike any other. We have our own, unique historical contexts, our own indigenous philosophies and value systems, and are bound together by a shared colonial trauma. And despite the hollowing out of our economy and society during centuries of imperialism, we can say with pride that our people are trying to improve their lives the best way they know how - seeking dignity, not charity, seeking empathy, not sympathy, and seeking equality, not revenge.
It is going to be very exciting to see how the Hindu society evolves over the next century. Knowledge is our currency and we will flourish in this information age.
The hindus didn't just survive under Muslim rule, they flourished.
Knowledge is definitely not the currency in India today. The government has set aside half a billion dollars for a pseudoscience ministry called Ayush. Pseudo physicians will now conduct surgery. Research institutes are being compelled to research the therapeutic benefits of cow piss. High school students are being taught pseudoscience- Indian cow milk is superior to Jersey cows milk because it contains gold!!
From your comments itself, it is obvious that India is moving towards ethnocentrism and you are excited about it. This we can both agree upon.
Actually its more like 25%. It was also a manufacturing super power.
Under his reign, India surpassed Qing China to become the world's largest economy and biggest manufacturing power, worth nearly a quarter of global GDP and more than the entirety of Western Europe, and its largest and wealthiest subdivision, the Bengal Subah, signaled the proto-industrialization.
who ruled over almost the entire Indian subcontinent for a period of 49 years.
The metrics and history is clear, the heart burn is more on the line of him being Muslim. You don't want your biggest object of hate to be the most successful model/person you ever had in all your history.
>>India is moving towards ethnocentrism and you are excited about it.
Even on those line some one like Babur is more closer genetically and culturally(belligerent conquerers from Central Asian Steppes) to the Vedic Heroes than the boiled rice eaters we Indians are today.
It's one of those grand Ironies staring us in our face.
Now coming to your point about economy during Mughal period, you just need to check the book ‘The Cambridge Economic History of India 1200-1750’, which documents the reality of Mughal Manasabdari system.
But all this perceived greatness of Mughal system can be challenged by the simple assertion that during the ~300 year rule, no a single university or centre of higher education was created by them. The only schools that flourished during that time were down south outside their realm.
Bringing the discussion more suited to HN, India has terrible ratings on Internet freedom: https://freedomhouse.org/country/india/freedom-net/2020
The country's administration blocks websites and cuts internet connections en masse, without warnings and legitimate reasons.
Also, its new content regulation and liability laws threaten the concepts of open internet: https://blog.mozilla.org/netpolicy/2021/03/02/indias-new-int...
You can't change other people's opinion about their nation, religion, politics, etc even if you believe you have all the facts and most of the time it just devolves into a flamewar (1)
This democracy report sounds like as if written by an Indian journalist Rana Ayyub. (https://twitter.com/ranaayyub) She writes columns in various western media outlets. Her whole career is built on the foundations of hating Modi. Various statements used in the article linked above, sounds eerily similar to what this lady writes time and again.
While I don't give full marks to Modi administration, I do not believe the premise set in the article (or the report) at all. For all unbiased HNers reading this and unfamiliar with India, the issue at hand is very complex. You have to understand, there are vested interests around the world who want to disgrace the current administration in India by hook or crook.
There are issues and problems on both the sides (Hindus and Muslims) but in case say in a murder, a Muslim is the victim, the machinery of the likes of Rana Ayyub have the power to flare it up on all possible International platforms giving spin to the story what suits their own narrative but things go unnoticed when a person from some other religion is a victim when Muslims kill someone. An example, Sometime back a Muslim politician abused a Hindu group; in return a Hindu leader abused Muslim God. A fatwa was issued and the Hindu leader (Kamlesh Tiwari) was murdered by Muslims within few years of uttering the words. His murder never became the hot topic in International media.
I can go on and on to negate every statement in the linked article with supporting proofs if people here really want to listen with eyes and ears open.
All I want to say this There is a lot more to it than meets the eye.
That aside, I am not fond of these "democracy reports" when they are driven by opinions of a handful of people, rather than data-driven.
As for rule of law, India's judicial backlogs are truly atrocious.
An ongoing controversy concerns the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court who offered an alleged rapist freedom in exchange for marrying his victim. The victim, who was underage at the time of the attacks, was "stalked, tied up, gagged, repeatedly raped and was threatened with being doused in petrol, set alight and have her brother killed". 
Other judgements from 2020 that the Freedom House report refers to include the acquittal of allies of the ruling party for demolishing a 15th century mosque (despite overwhelming evidence) and granting the site of that mosque to allies of the ruling party to build a Hindu temple, a court case which bizarrely considered a Hindu deity one of the winning litigants.
Previous judgements acquitted the current home minister and president of the ruling party of ordering extra-judicial killings and freed other members of the ruling party who were previously convicted of murders during religious riots.
This is not to say all judgements fall into this pattern. There are undoubtedly a few highlights such as Shreya Singhal (online freedom of expression), 377 (decriminalization of homosexuality) and the Right to Privacy (is a thing).
However these are few and far between.
Abrahimic deity-view will find it bizarre and difficult to understand.
I don't remember exactly what video it was, but he even has recordings of meetings from management of one of the scam companies
You can tell he is a true hacker and has a real passion to do the right thing. I'd recommend his channel to anyone
Wow; this is an atrocious and racist statement if i have ever seen one.
You ought to be banned.
How you turn this into me being racist is just something I chose to ignore to keep it civil.
Care to provide sources for this?
Yes, for mainstream Hindu nationalists, this is a great time, the government is fully for them. But with all due respect spare a thought for the minorities, journalists and even comedians who are sent to jail for no reason. What about CAA etc.?
As for comedians there should be demand to remove the blasphemy laws. That would stop those hurting religious cases.
Sigh. And the top judge is either a joke as in china or ask the rapist to continue raping the kids he raped (by marrying her).
Sigh. Can we have hope.
Isn't supporting persecuted minorities with no other homeland than India something that the government of India should do? Israel does it by giving citizenship to all persecuted incoming Jews and there seem to be no complains about that so not sure why India is demonized for doing the same.
Also, most of the mentions of CAA never explain exactly what is discriminatory in the law. It only accelerates the citizenship process for religions that originate in India. Not sure what is discriminatory about that?
 - https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-first-batch-of-facilit...
 - http://egazette.nic.in/WriteReadData/2019/214646.pdf
You pick and choose which religions get an "accelerated" citizenship process (whatever that means). Also India has millions of muslims (or christians) whom you can deny citizenship because it is a "foreign" religion :)
This sounds made up. What laws in India let them deny citizenship for minorities because it’s a “foreign” religion? Care to source one?
The National Register of Citizens (NRC). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Register_of_Citizen...
The CAA and NRC are designed to work together to strip citizenship from Indian muslims who do not have documents to comprehensively prove citizenship.
The NRC is terrible but not overtly discriminatory on religious grounds. The CAA essentially protects people from the NRC, but does so in a blatantly discriminatory manner.
How it works: You might have a passport or driving license or Aadhaar, but none of these prove you are a citizen; you need a document issued before the 1970 wave of immigration from Bangladesh, and if you are younger than that you need to prove an ancestor's citizenship using such a document and then prove your descent from that person using birth certificates.
Needles to say, many people (of all religions) would not be able to do that.
This is where the CAA comes in, saying people in the country illegally have a fast-track to citizenship if they happen to be from a list of 'persecuted minorities' in neighboring countries. The list excludes persecuted muslim groups, most conspicuously the Rohingya of Myanmar who face the most horrifying persecution.
Sidenote: while I said the NRC isn't discriminatory in it's framing, it was in practice in Assam, the only state where it has been enforced. Officers have broad discretion over choosing whom to challenge (to prove citizenship), and some were caught admitting they challenged people based on how hey dressed and in what neighborhood they lived.
The moment it is required that an official needs to sign off on something, that power will be used to extract money first and political favors next.
The recent love jihad laws that require a sign off from the administration attesting that no harm has been done in s case of mixed faith marriage, is not the first of its kind. A couple of months ago a marriage registrar and local police asked for a hefty bribe from two of my acquaintances who were getting married to each other - all because they are from different religion and that requires a sign off from local admin. This is a known practice and the corruption money finds it way up to high places. It is a politically sanctioned corruption.
Speculating now --
The recent spate of cow slaughter lynching is less about protecting cows ft slaughter houses but note about using the political system to grab protection money from Muslims - give me money and continue as usual or get lynched even if its buff meat that you are selling/transporting
"In India's citizenship test, a spelling error can ruin a family" https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio...
"Ex-Soldier Declared "Foreigner" In Assam Released From Detention Centre"
> Also India has millions of muslims (or christians) whom you can deny citizenship because it is a "foreign" religion :)
This is blatantly false. The CAA only applies to new immigrants that apply for citizenship. No where in the CAA law it is mentioned that existing citizens can be stripped of their citizenship due to their religion or any other reason.
This is not twitter or reddit. Please stop spreading lies, FUD and conjecture here.
Talking about middle class incomes is a total red herring. These are fairly typical diversionary tactics, to move the conversation from an uncomfortable topic such as fascism and human rights violations to more mundane discussions about economic metrics.
If you have been in a couple of these discussions you will learn to avoid these diversionary traps :)
Have you looked at the interest rates ? The government is crushing the very same middle class savers/pensioners who have supported them ardently. And the funny thing is they still continue to do so.
This irony is lost on everybody.
Independent India has actually never had a negative growth rate ever, until 2020.
This also ignores 3 fundamental facts
1. The middle class of India is a minority. The majority of India is lower class.
2. The growth rate has been declining ever since Modi has assumed power.
3. The current discussion is about fascism, suspension of habeas corpud, human rights violations and the usurpation of power from independent branches like the judiciary, election commission, enforcement directorate etc. -
not the middle class income profile.
Germany was also prosperous under Hitler.
It would be pretty worrying if they weren't.
The reason for my skepticism is that I have never faced internet censorship. I was in Delhi till last June.
: https://www.dw.com/en/indias-internet-shutdowns-function-lik... (arrived at from )
If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email email@example.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
2. Delegitimizing mail-in ballots
3. Delegitimizing election officials
4. Calling up state election officials to change votes in favor of Trump
5. Filing 200+ BS lawsuits questioning the authenticity of ballots
6. Disenfranchising minorities by gerrymandering
7. 250+ bills have been introduced in various states restricting voter rights
Do you seriously want me to go on?
> Have Indian muslims been denied citizenship rights? ...CAA makes special provisions for some religious minorities.
Yes except Muslims. Thats the problematic part. Religion is used as a defining position for 'repatriation'.
> the ruling Republican party were not only responsible for spreading voter misinformation, opposing a free and fair election, causing an insurrection and failed to hold anybody accountable for it.
This is bad but its not bad as whats happening in India. The govt is throwing activists in jail for protests and raising questions. They have effectively captured all media houses and they telecast blatant anti Muslim propaganda 24/7. This is a massive problem for all except the privileged whom the govt is made of.
This entire defence of the govt and its blatantly bigoted actions looks silly. But I'm not surprised given the demography of Indian tech industry.
How is that problematic? Many religions originated in India. Don't these people have the right to come back and get accelerated citizenship for their homeland if they are persecuted in other countries?
Also very importantly, the CAA does not prohibit Muslim immigrants from seeking citizenship . Which is what you are suggesting here. And it is patently false . So please desist from spreading lies here.
A gentle reminder that Israel also does the same. So why are you holding Israel and India to different standards?
 - https://hcikl.gov.in/pdf/press/CAA_2019_dec.pdf
> They have effectively captured all media houses and they telecast blatant anti Muslim propaganda 24/7
The biggest media houses (by viewership count) in India are NDTV, AajTak, Times Now. I view them daily and I don't see any anti-muslim propaganda 24/7. Perhaps you can give examples from these three houses that is anti-muslim propaganda?
Please read and educate yourself. https://cjp.org.in/why-the-caanprnrc-is-a-toxic-cocktail-for...
>A gentle reminder that Israel also does the same.
I dont know why you are mentioning Israel now as if i'm defending them. No, what they are doing is wrong too.
>Perhaps you can give examples from these three houses that is anti-muslim propaganda?
maybe this might help you. Its a well explained piece
> Please read and educate yourself. https://cjp.org.in/why-the-caanprnrc-is-a-toxic-cocktail-for...
I have read that before. It talks about a deadly cocktail of 3 laws, CAA, NPC, NRC. Out of these, the nation-wide NPC and NRC laws don't exist, even in very rough drafts. So I am really not sure from where the author of this piece is drawing all his conjecture from. It also re-repeats some same half-facts about CAA that I dismissed above. Maybe the author is time-travelling mind-reader who knows more about some future laws that even the law-writers don't know about?
> >Perhaps you can give examples from these three houses that is anti-muslim propaganda?
> maybe this might help you. Its a well explained piece https://theprint.in/opinion/indian-media-waging-holy-war-aga...
Let's dissect this piece step by step.
1. I mentioned the three big media houses by viewership (NDTV, AajTak, Times Now.) Two of them are not mentioned in this piece, so the "all media houses are controlled" statement falls flat right here.
2. This is not an well researched journalism piece. It not even a journalism piece at all. It's an explicitly stated opinion piece that is presented as such. No one in the world considers an opinion piece as a fact. This is what an actual, well researched fact filled piece looks like, with all specific facts and details. If you can produce a detailed piece of journalism like this proving your point, then I will believe you.
3. Even if we consider this opinion piece as not opinion, it is very light on facts. It does not mention any specific big government produced propaganda pieces that are being pushed. It talks about some media (not all) houses talking about some issues to gain ratings. But that is not 24/7 government controlled propaganda. Not even close to the old Triumph of Will standards, never mind all the modern spectacle that is possible today with technology.
 - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/05/26/us/turkey-pro...
Large scale denaturalization has only been carried out recently in apartheid south Africa, nazi Germany and Burmese militia.
Denaturalization of Hindus does not make the system "fair". They do however have a way back via CAA. The hindu victims are typically lower caste Dalits, for whom the upper caste middle class Hindus typically have very little sympathy.
Stories from Indias largest concentration camp for denaturalized citizens.
> annual report on global political rights and liberties by Freedom House, a US government-funded NGO that studies political freedom around the world
> Beijing’s efforts “featured increased meddling in the domestic political discourse of foreign democracies, transnational extensions of rights abuses common in mainland China, and the demolition of Hong Kong’s liberties and legal autonomy”.
Is this not hypocrisy? Specially after what happened in the USA when Trump lost? How does Freedom House thinks China meddles in foreign democracies? Propaganda from NGOs is an open secret and almost every country uses it these days.
The President Elect took office on the specified inauguration day?
Also, it's a very western view to a country to be less or more democratic, depending on how authoritarian a current leader is. You can talk to an average person in India, Turkey or Hungary and very few will feel that they are now less free because, say, Orban or Modi is in charge (although they may totally dislike their leaders).
I went from lax Covid policies to a locked down city, and I feel freer.
getting a phone number as tourist was complex, we decided to keep roaming for 5 weeks.
every hotel you check in to asks you to write down where you came from and where you're going next. all so they can probably throw it in the trash. we didn't know where we were going next half the time, we made it up.
The amount of personal data required to do just about anything.
at the airports they have staff that will sit and make random marks on your boarding pass and write things down, but not consistently.
for me it felt very much like India was a "state that thinks it's in control of everything but doesn't have a real, substantive grasp on anything" - yet as a foreigner, i felt very much managed.
all opinion ^^
That's not at all my takeaway. Note that you list The Heritage Foundation as a source, a well known opinion piece factory, far from impartial if you ever take a look at their funding structure.
Please re-read the links and in particular; the WaPo article. It also provides links to other relevant articles/papers.
And I swear India was trumpeting these same flawed reports when it worked in its favor.
Can you honestly not say this is not true. That India is not sliding into a much worse version of Democracy? Have you even looked at the new IT rules?
Here’s how you know India is less free. Irrespective of whether tou agree with the rules or not, they are not law. But India’s current situation is so messed up that no one will even consider not treating it as a law.
But I somehow find a link to a fringe website and a "my friend in India told me" anecdote, which is pretty unbecoming of HN but more and more common these days. I’m surprised (and disappointed) dang is allowing this kind of blatant propaganda.
I didn't read it as a call for breakup of India. There are genuine questions about the state of West Bengal and why it should continue to be a single state.
If Telangana can be a state, why not Darjeeling?
As a half-Croat, this reminds me also of a more recent example: the Balkans. Let's just hope and pray to whatever gods we adhere to that, should the situation come to the worst, it won't end in Balkan-level bloodshed.
This definition works for countries like in Europe who have very little of their pagan roots left. Further more Europe is divided mostly on linguistic and on catholic/protestant divide (with exceptions and then there is Switzerland or Belgium).
India is a civilisational state, it has long established cultural interoperability. Indian epics, temples and traditions are 1000s of years old and still maintain deep roots.
For Indians, the recent notions of a nation state is irrelevant.
If that is the case then perhaps like China you may find more than 60% of its territory held together by force, with Hanification and reeducation camps.
Sure, there were different kingdoms and turfs, but the philosophical core of the cpuntry, was based on Sanatana Dharma, common to the sub continent. That is why it was easy to keep it as a coherent unit even after hundreds of ywars of muslim and british rule.
The technique of hijacking a perfectly legitimate movement to push a particular agenda/propaganda is as old as Politics.