I'll believe it when I see it. I could believe them getting rid of the touchbar, but bringing back magsafe? I'm sticking with my 2015 MacBook until it's irreparable, and I do like the magsafe port, but is there really any point in going back after moving to USB-C? I think I just like magsafe because it's cool more than that it actually has some sort of superiority over USB-C. I've tripped over the USB-C cable to my work laptop(2018 model) a handful of times and somehow the cable always manages to unplug without flinging the laptop across the room or damaging the USB components themselves. It doesn't seem like going back to magsafe would achieve anything.
My favorite part of my touchbar MBP is that it uses USB-C charging. MagSafe is neat, but I don't miss the $80 proprietary charger with a cable that's fixed to the brick and will probably fail if you do anything other than leave it sitting at a desk.
Could this be talking about an iPhone 12 style magsafe with a large pad? Not sure how that would work, you'd have to set your computer on top of it to have enough contact area. Couldn't go on the back of the screen (too thick), so I'm not sure where else it would be. And can it do a high enough wattage? A thin connection like the pencil charging along the side of the computer perhaps, but I'm even more skeptical of wattage with that approach, and it'd mean yet another special cable.
It's certainly true that Apple has been on a big magnets kick lately. MagSafe for iPhones, Pencil charging on the iPad, the Magic Keyboard mounting, and the Apple Watch charger all come to mind.
> My favorite part of my touchbar MBP is that it uses USB-C charging. MagSafe is neat, but I don't miss the $80 proprietary charger with a cable that's fixed to the brick and will probably fail if you do anything other than leave it sitting at a desk.
Magsafe is more than neat, it pretty much solved the major annoyance with laptop power cables (e.g. someone trips on cable, and laptop gets jerked around, eventually damaging something).
Apple likes to toot its own horn way to much, but they deserve tons of credit for Magsafe.
Here's an alternate solution to that problem: build a laptop with 20 hours of battery so that people aren't sitting on the couch with their laptop on the coffee table and a power cord dangling across the living room floor.
I don't have an M1 machine, but the impression I get from people is that "Plug it in overnight at your desk and literally don't worry about its battery running out" is a reasonable thing to do now.
>Here's an alternate solution to that problem: build a laptop with 20 hours of battery so that people aren't sitting on the couch with their laptop on the coffee table and a power cord dangling across the living room floor.
That's a non-solution, since a large majority of the people will use the laptop on their office desk/home desktop, and prefer to have it plugged in while so.
I’d argue that using the laptop at a desk negates the need for a “yank-proof” charger since in most office situations there’s an outlet near or under the desk. Thus the cable won’t be draped across a walkway where someone might trip on it.
Well I’ve got a power strip so I’m not running separate power cords for my computer, a powered USB hub, a lamp, an external hard drive, etc. since that would need a whole bunch of wall outlets that I definitely don’t have.
Having more than two things plugged in at a desk is pretty common situation and literally everyone solves it with a surge protector / power strip. So the laptop cord isn’t dangling across the room, it just runs from the power strip under the desk up the wall to the laptop on the desk. Not a situation where MagSafe would do anything for it.
There are well setup home office desks (I use one, now, didn't always have one), and there are all kinds of office makeshift desk situations, from a simple small ikea desk with a laptop on it and not much else, to the kitch table used as a desk (and cables going to the wall).
Sometimes you're also on the sofa and need to charge, and so on...
Right, but my point in the original comment is that with a 20 hour battery life you wouldn't have the "on the sofa and need to charge" problem anymore.
That's the experience I have with my HP "windows on arm" laptop (one of the launch devices - not the newer more powerful CPU). And of course in the last few rounds of Windows updates they broke "Instant On" which besides battery life was the only other great thing about it. Now it's a slow laptop with great battery life that's frustrating because it takes 20 seconds to turn on.
I too loved MagSafe.
It wasn’t without issues though. The cables didn’t have strain relief so ended up destroyed in certain hands. The other issue may be more region specific - New Zealand has iron sand beaches and fine black sand gets everywhere. Presumably some got into a bag of mine and a very small amount go into the laptop charging ports of multiple laptops. It caused the charger to not connect perfectly and this generated hear and blackened the plug and laptop around the port.
Also if you have small children who put the magsafe connector in their mouth it kills the power brick. If you plug a faulty power brick into a laptop it would sometimes fry the power circuit on the laptop as well.
But I'm 100% in agreement that Apple underdesigned the strain relief on the MagSafe connectors, probably for aesthetic reasons.
I love the design of the MagSafe chargers, you point out a great advantage of them, but sadly they aren't durable. And like the parent comment said, they are expensive. I'm on my second for my current laptop and it's frayed on the end so I'm soon to be on my third. Hopefully a next iteration of MagSafe takes this issue more seriously.
I have a couple MagSafe chargers (for the 15 inch Pro) sitting in a drawer with no Mac that can use them. I can’t be bothered to sell them on eBay, I’d be happy to pass them on if you cover shipping.
> I love the design of the MagSafe chargers, you point out a great advantage of them, but sadly they aren't durable.
I was only talking about the MagSafe connector, which was genius. I agree that they made a few very poor decisions in other parts of the charger (specifically: the cable itself).
That works for a while so long as it's not fraying near the Magsafe connector itself. I eventually threw out my older charger because there was more electrical tape than original coating. My current one started deteriorating right at the connector so it's patched up with epoxy paste to provide strain relief.
I tend to agree that Apple isn't going to retreat on USB-C. That just doesn't make a lot of sense. And whatever minor virtues Magsafe may have, I'm happy when traveling not to have to remember a one-off charger for a laptop. (Which I have forgotten a couple of times.)
I just bought my first macbook, a 2015 model. Looking at the charger, the connection with the magsafe connector looks ok (but definitely weaker than regular barrel jacks), but it seems to me that people get the tendency to unplug it by pulling the cable instead of pulling on the connector. Perhaps that's why they deteriorate rapidly?
I'm sure people do at least now and then. I almost certainly have--are at least I'm not super careful. And I know mine does get accidentally yanked out every now and then.
And I find the covering of the whole cord tends to deteriorate over time, which isn't strain related.
> MagSafe is neat, but I don't miss the $80 proprietary charger with a cable that's fixed to the brick
No law of physics requires a cable with a magnet on one end to not be detachable from the brick on the other end. So while I too do not lament that the cable is no longer affixed to the bricks, I would like Apple to make a magsafe cable that is just not attached that is also not shitty (all those third party USBC attachments have terrible weak magnets that can't even hold themselves in place and I believe can cause power delivery problems).
The other important aspect of USB-C versus MagSafe is that I have USB-C cables hooked up on charges all around my apartment. There's a multi-port charger at my desk, one in the living room, and another in my bedroom. Laptop uses the same charging cable from these as my iPad does. Sometimes I hook another charger up in my kitchen if I'm using my iPad for recipes and want to charge it while I cook. There's another a USB-C charger that lives in my bag, along with a USB-C cable which can also charge my iPad and a power bank.
Even if they make this a new cable with USB-C on one end and NewMagSafe on the other, it'd mean buying a whole bunch of new cables if I wanted to actually use it. And I'd need to buy a whole bunch of chargers too, because the ones I have are mainly a single USB-C port and a couple USB-A ports.
If they want to make yet another proprietary charging cable, fine. I don't really care as long as USB-C charging is still supported.
But the new MacBook would still have USB-C for peripherals right? So it could be, if those still would support USB-PD, that the new MacBook can be charged over magsafe or, if you happen to be near USB-C, using your 'legacy' USB-C charger for 'backwards compatibility'. That would be pretty sweet!!
> I would like Apple to make a magsafe cable that is just not attached that is also not shitty
Bonus points if they make them in a flavor/odor that cats hate. Apple chargers are the only gear my cat has ever chewed on, and I'm not alone in that. I've had to replace 3 cords now. https://www.google.com/search?q=apple+charger+cat+chew
Weird. When my puppy was teething last year, he chewed the ends off a bunch of Apple USB-C and Lightning cables, but didn't touch any other cables (including our non-Apple USB-C and Lightning cables, of which we have plenty.)
Interesting you say that because I've been using a 3rd party USB-C to Magsafe connector to charge my Macbook and it works great. The magnet is even stronger than the OEM ones. Never had a problem with it.
I got it half expecting it to be a piece of crap, but I've been really happy with it so far. Mind you, the power source still needs to have a certain output to charge your Macbook, but it's allowed me to use the same USB-C charger that comes with newer Macbooks with my 2015 Macbook.
EDIT: I hope that was what you were picturing. I suppose someone reading my comment could have interpreted it as a magsafe-to-usb-c connector.
I was talking about the things that add magsafe charging while still allowing data transfer for current usbc macs. I'm simultaneously sad and happy to not be proved wrong. :(
This is what I use with my Intel 16” MBP and M1 Air.
Magnetic Thunderbolt3 USB C Adapter 24Pins USB-C Connector, Support PD 100W Quick Charge, 40Gbp/s Data Transfer and 6K@60Hz 4K@60Hz Video Output Compatible for MacBook Pro/Air and More Type C Devices
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0896QK2J5/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glc_...
I tried several of those and the magnets were all so bad that they couldn't even support the weight of the cable itself and would lead to fraction-of-a-second disconnects, which in one case led the mac to disable charging on the port (temporarily. the apple store fixed it but I don't know how).
At this point I don't think the reward is worth the risk. But I am glad to hear that at least some of them aren't terrible.
I use it to connect to the dock on my desk, so the cable weight wasn’t an issue, but I can see how the weight of the cable pulling down would disconnect the magnetic connector.
I have always believed that the MagSafe connector should be on the brick. A short, regular USB type C cable to the power brick and a MagSafe connector between the brick and the wall.
Bonus points if the brick incorporates a small hub with additional ports. This would allow you to choose between using a regular USB type C power cable or the proprietary brick with MagSafe built in.
basically anything I own with a lightning or usb micro port gets a magnetic plug (and any usb c device that I dont charge once a day) and becomes an instant magsafe device.
I’m with you about USB-C.
I really like my MagSafe but many of them worn off (just like Apple Lightning cables).
What I really love in USB-C is that it’s a standard!
Brave Apple switched everything to this type of connector. I actually get that. but if you’ve sticked to it for 6 years. keep it.
> I don't miss the $80 proprietary charger with a cable that's fixed to the brick and will probably fail if you do anything other than leave it sitting at a desk.
The Surface charger is a version of MagSafe that's pretty much immune to that.
+1 I really like the interoperability of the USB-C charging on my 2019 Mac. With the same charger I can charge my phone, laptop, headphones and bluetooth speaker. Having to carry only one cable (and one brick) around is great.
I wonder if the "MagSafe" they are talking about is the new magsafe wireless charging on the iphone 12?
It would be nice to be able to have a charging pad for my laptop rather than needing to mess with wires at all.
Speculation time! I wonder if they will be able to put a magsafe wireless charging spot both under the laptop, and on top next to the trackpad! They could let you charge your iphone from your laptop, and charge the laptop via some fancy new magsafe pad.
In fact I wonder if this could include some of the "air power" tech that was reportedly cut a while back?
Apple patents are an evergreen topic for tech journalists, but Apple never announces features or products through patent filings. If you're seeing a public filing for a patent from Apple on a thing that they aren't currently shipping, that means it's something they have no plans to ship.
The Apple Pencil 2 and Magic Keyboard case attach to an iPad extremely well. Wouldn't be hard to imagine the new MagSafe being somewhere in the same spot as before but not having any kind of "port" that juts out or in.
if so, I will be very interested to see how they manage the thermals. wireless charging for a laptop will dump a lot more waste heat into the chassis than it does for a phone.
Imagine a USB-C compliant version of MagSafe. That would be awesome. not sure if the physics work out (can you efficiently push that many bits through a magnet like that?)
Yes, I have a magnetic adapter which works very well. Apple could integrate the magnetic ports on both sides and still have 4 usb c ports (which you could still charge the MacBook with).
For data transfer or just charging? I’m sure they work for charging but I think the questioner was wondering if you could actually run 10Gbps through the magnetic adapter.
What I miss about the MagSafe was that it would bump off if I adjusted my computer on my lap or my bed where USB-C bends and eventually breaks. I’ve never needed to replace any of the MagSafe chargers on old MacBooks and I must be on my third or fourth USB-C cable.
There are many third party mag-safe like "adapters" for USB-C, that fairly flush in the port. It does require that port being a dedicated charging port though.
It will not be the magsafe of old. I could see them making a magsafe adapter similar to the iphone’s, that snaps onto the back of the screen on either side.
> It will not be the magsafe of old. I could see them making a magsafe adapter similar to the iphone’s, that snaps onto the back of the screen on either side.
What would even be the point of something like that? It makes no sense, and would introduce a lot of unneeded complexity and inefficiency.
Wireless charging only really makes sense on the bottom of devices. The value proposition is to give you a place to easily set the thing down and get power. Wireless charging for a laptop would mean the "antenna" is on the bottom of the machine, which you place on a desk-sized charging pad.
But then you would be back to the problem of a yank on the power cord throwing the laptop on the floor. At least with usb c you have a chance that it unplugs. With a bottom charging mat there’s no chance. What would be the point?
This makes most sense to me as the induced charging area needs to be big enough for it to work so I think that would rule out the sides as the place where the magnetic charger would snap on. But this raises another issue what happens when the charger is snapped on the back of the screen and the screen angle is adjusted, will there be a wire hanging off the screen that moves with it as I lower or raise my screen? Seems a bit un-Apple-like.
Surely I can’t be the only one whose usb-c charging port is kinda loose and have to double check to make sure it’s taut? My personal 2015 Pro on the other hand chucks along fine.
> I could believe them getting rid of the touchbar
Either they should get rid of it or add it to more products.
Devs can't rely on a touchbar being present since as soon as you plug in an external keyboard it's un-reachable or simply not there for Apple's desktop offerings.
I'd love it if Apple sold an external keyboard with a touchbar, because there are genuine uses for it.
The USB C connection on my laptop loosened over time. To the point that the cable now just falls out unless I keep the laptop completely still. Having a magnet in there to keep the cable in place would be nice. No reason you couldn't use a magnet with a USB-C connection though, best of both worlds and whatnot
It's also possible you have lint in your connector. Try poking around for a while with a thin non-metal object (e.g. toothpick). If you keep your phone on your pocket you'll need likely get lint in there with time.
I don't really see the issue, since the laptop will still be chargeable by USB-C anyways, unlike iPhone's with a single port. I believe Microsoft also uses their own charger port but also have power delivery USB-C port. As long as they add more ports, best of both worlds, really.
I imagine they wouldn't remove the ability to charge over USB-C, but simply add a new MagSafe port. This would effectively free up an extra port when traveling, and you could still use USB-C charging from hubs, monitors, or third-party chargers.
This sounds very plausible. I have a Dell Windows laptop with an ordinary barrel charger port which can also be kept charged by a dock plugged into the USB C port. It seems a good arrangement. I haven't tried charging the laptop from a USB C wall wart rather than a dock, but it seems plausible it would work and it could be a handy feature if you forgot the charger somewhere.
well I really like the idea of "connecting everything - keyboard, monitor, and even power" of usb-C... but it's a security nightmare. One rogue device can pretend to be a keyboard + monitor, and can run some commands without user knowing.
though I expect apple to put usb-c port for ordinary people / people who don't like to buy magsafe (I ran over them with my chair several times, resulting in 5 replacements...)
I know it's from Kuo, but these leaks don't pass the smell test for me. It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions. It makes even less sense to add more ports which aren't USB-C, as the bits about MagSafe and no dongles imply. Further, I don't understand what is meant by "iPhone 12 like" non-curvy design - I have a 2018 MBP 15", and the sides of this thing are pretty flat and not curved.
I mean, these features sound like a dream come true, but I'm having a hard time believing them.
> It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions.
Well keep in mind that the first generation Arm MacBooks are basically the same old Intel laptops with their guts replaced. The next generation is probably going to be a completely new design.
Exactly, Thats how they did it before. First revision is the same as the old Macs with the new Arch, then once they are happy with everything they create a whole new design.
Looking at the design of the iPads and iPhones starting with the 12 it seems clear that there's been a change in design decisions at Apple.
There'd been a drive to remove ports and to make devices as thin as possible, even if it meant losing functionality (no SD slots, USB-A ports, shorter battery life) or increasing complexity (dongles, battery packs).
That seems to be reversing to some degree. Whether this was all Jony Ive or not, it's nice to see more of a balance. It should be possible to have a functional device but not include every I/O port under the sun.
But there were old gen Intel 13" MBPs without the touch bar. They added those into the M1 macs that replaced those old models. Clearly, they could simply have... not, if they were indeed thinking of removing the touchbar entirely.
But why didn't they revive the 2018 version of the Intel MBP that didn't have the TouchBar? It would have fit perfectly as it was also a two-port model. Maybe it has to do with the keyboard being broken in the 2018 model, but (to this layman) it sounds easier to fix that than to add support for the TouchBar on Apple Silicon for a single (!) temporary hardware model.
Now they have to keep that TouchBar code around in AppKit even after they inevitably drop Intel support. Extremely curious decision.
i'd wager it's either a hardware requirement (reusing existing components) to not have to build a different design prior to a full refresh with the new arch, or kind of a trial run for Apple to see how many would prefer a slightly cheaper design without the touchbar. The differences of the Pro vs Air are quite minimal. Where I do like the fanless design, I was concerned of thermal concerns on the Air, but there was no way that I'll ever buy a touchbar product from Apple ever again, so I took a shot with the Air. Pleasantly surprised with heat/energy/battery, and couldn't be happier to have the physical F key row back. M1 Air is hands down the best MacBook I've used since the 2015 MacBook Pro.
Perhaps the new MacBook Pro supports USB-C charging AND wireless charging? MagSafe in this context could be referring to wireless charging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe
The quote from Kuo specifically mentions MagSafe charging connector design, but he could have mistakenly assumed his source was still referring to the wired connector if they mentioned MagSafe.
Curious about changes to I/O ports. I would expect additional (more than two) USB-C ports, but unsure which I/O types may be considered a "standard" need for pro users at this point. Perhaps video output and/or legacy USB?
The touch bar is visually appealing and likely great for most consumers, but the bar has not been as functional as physical function keys during my time touch-typing/ programming due to lack of tactile feedback. I frequently have to look at the bar, else I tap the wrong button. I often trigger the bar unintentionally while hovering over number keys. I am thankful the M1 Pro has an Escape key. I would be very likely to upgrade to a higher end MacBook Pro to have physical function keys again.
I use solar power. Also, in nearby San Jose, California, they have banned NG in all new construction except commercial or multi family residences taller than 3 stories.
I have the feeling that it's not going to be on the charging cable. Benson Leung often comments that extensions and modifications to USB-C cables are not compliant with the USB-C standard, which Apple helped write.
What I could imagine though, is if the charger itself incorporates MagSafe.
I haven't tried more extensive tests (e.g. video out) but I don't see any real reason why Apple couldn't make a more official (i.e. USB-C certified) version. As the sister comment says, if it's for power only then it is simpler.
I'd imagine rather than adapters like this, you would plug in a cable that has a magnetic joint somewhere near the end that can 'break' if pulled.
I was under the impression that the "no connectors/extensions" wasn't so much around power delivery, but around the high data rates (40 Gbps) and signal integrity.
A charger cable, that only does PD, could have a magnetic break in it without issues.
In my experience, MagSafe 2 did a fine job at staying attached when pulled directly from the port, and came unstuck easily (as intended by design) when pulled from an angle.
I don't remember ever having problems with the charger popping out when it wasn't supposed to. But I also always used it on a desk, rather than sitting it on my lap.
MagSafe on the cable would work poorly because people would leave the laptop end in the port and stick it in their backpack and bump and ruin it. Apple wouldn't go for a design like that (same reason they have the charging port on the bottom of the mouse - people would leave it plugged in all the time and wear out the cable/port)
It seems clear to me that they're going to incorporate the exact same Mag Safe charger as they did on the iPhone 12. Same magnetic paddle, but it will attach to the lid or the back or something.
In the case of the 16", which draws 96W at full bore these days, more than six times that. I've heard speculation that the new MBPs might not wirelessly charge themselves... but could have an integrated wireless charger in the palmrests for iphones/etc.
Hope it's the bottom. Then you can "dock" your MBP without any latches. Some people might make a desk or tabletop that would allow the On the screen back would look bizarre.
Now imagine if MagSafe could also be a data channel...
And power users here doesn't mean only IT people, but anyone who uses some application all the time for some kind of work. Someone processing photos may not be able to touch type but they'll learn the keyboard shortcuts for their stuff in no time.
Even professionals who don't learn to touch-type should at least use an external screen if they use a computer all day, at which point they'll likely use an external keyboard without a TouchBar again.
I spend hours a day in FCP and Photoshop. The ONLY thing it's useful for is scrubbing, but even there, I have other tools that are more helpful and don't take away F keys I can use as macros.
Many times more useful are tactile programmable keys like what I get on an Elgato Stream Deck, or other dedicated hardware. The touch bar is useless since it's one solid strip. Creatives don't like staring at their keyboards either.
I was personally very excited when they announced the touchbar but having lived with it for 5 years now, I hate it. And I do a lot of media work, mostly in Ableton Live but also Adobe Lightroom and others.
I just bought a new Macbook Air and I was very happy that the feature of not having the bar was cheaper as it was something I would have gladly paid money for.
For photoshop, which I'll admit I use infrequently, it's very handy.
I also use Ableton and Lightroom a reasonable amount (neither are my day job though), and am constantly left wishing that they integrated with the touchbar. I have a midi controller that I use for sliding controls in both when at my desk, but I don't take it when I'm out and about, which is where having the ability to adjust analog controls (sliders/dials) with the touchbar would be incredibly useful.
I don’t hate it, I just ignore it. Most of the time my laptop is closed and attached to my monitor, so it’s unavailable. On the rare occasions I use it as a laptop, I might use the Touch Bar to adjust the volume, but not much else, if anything.
It's for people who look at the keyboard when they type. I think it would be a godsend for the low end machines. Instead they put it on the high end machines and left it off the entry level ones -- completely backwards.
I personally never used the F keys for anything so don't really care if they are there or not (I use them just for brightness and mute) but the Touch Bar was too sensitive. And while I initially thought it would be cool to have an extra status display, a display someplace nobody ever looks is pretty useless.
True - but multimedia folks can buy separate controls for their specific needs; (for example, I use a separate volume control knob; just to have a handy way to control volume; mainly because my external keyboard's volume buttons require fn-key which is annoying when I need to respond quickly to change volume or mute.
So the touch bar might be great for SOME purposes in multimedia, not for others; but a variety of VERY CHEAP peripherals are available for these purposes - no need for a one-size-fits-all integrated approach.
It's for people who look at the keyboard when they type.
That's a pretty narrow view.
I've been a touch typer for many decades now (had to pass a minimum WPM score on an IBM Selectric to get my journalism degree), and I find the touchbar quite useful.
The problem is that you have to customize it. And the tools Apple supplies are inadequate.
In my case, I have a bunch of "keys" on the touchbar that trigger various macros.
Building a major change for one small set of users ("people who look at the keyboard") isn't how Apple does things.
For me, the problem is that programs have a habit of putting buttons that do important things in the natural resting area of where my hands go.
Zoom, for instance, puts the mic, camera, and share desktop buttons right where f1-f3 should go. If they were actual keys it wouldn't matter, but since they're touch sensitive, I have to suddenly be very conscious of where I rest my hands or else risk sending content I do not want to a meeting.
Those were F keys before, which I could put my finger on and use without having to hunt for the correct featureless spot on the Touch Bar every time I needed to step.
A lot of power users look at their keyboards. Touch typists are a very small minority, even among power users. At least pure touch typists (people who only touch type).
And these computers are not purely for power users.
I used to be able to touch type the speaker volume and mute F keys. With the slider or volume mute buttons, I often have a hard time hitting them correctly on the Touch Bar. This is after having it for years.
If they're grouped in blocks of 4 it's reasonably doable, especially for the ones at the edges of the blocks (for example F4 and F5 are popular buttons for IDEs and even browsers or other common applications).
In his defence I would say that is pretty close to perfect.
His sources isn't some made up contact from within Apple like all those Youtubers, or leaks from China WeiBo and then turn into some news. His sources are from Supply Chain, and if you look at it from that perspective it has been pretty dead accurate.
For Example, most of his Red ( Wrong ) are either Apple Release Date, or Pricing. Both are those are unpredictable by Supply Chain. Apple could change their pricing strategy at any min. But those Release Date and Pricing were derived from possible Production Schedule and Total BOM cost reduction. Both have been insanely accurate.
There are other derived conclusion. Like Longer battery life, which was derived from having lager Battery capacity and better Display energy efficiency, except Apple implemented other features so battery life stays flat.
Things like iPhone having same water resistance, from his point of view none of the water resistance steps had any make over. So no change in water resistance from 2018 were exactly correct. It is just that Apple felt confidence enough the same process could now be advertise with better water resistance capacity. i.e They were too conservative with the iPhone XS water resistance claim.
Not even sure why Pro Display XDR going Mini-LED in 2019 is suggested as wrong either.
Of course there are things he would be wrong. Especially those small volume products. With iPhone you cant really hide, after all there are hundreds of companies working to make sure a product shipping a 100M unit annual volume. Leaks in supply chain are bound to happen.
Looking through that list, there's several predictions about late 2020 that didn't happen and most predictions he's made were far enough out to still be pending. In addition, lots of "correct guesses" were pretty basic things.
Not saying this won't come to be, but his actual accuracy where it counts seems much lower than indicated.
He did specifically mention high power charging on Non-USB C.
One of the problem with High Power, USB-C charging is the higher probability of frying the MacBook. As it has been since post 2015 MacBook Pro. From a reliability stand point this isn't any good at all. The insane amount of MacBook Pro with this problem on Louis Rossmann channel
Not all USB-C Cable are capable of charging up to 100W, most are only 28W. You need specific 100W, thicker cable to charge it. Of course HN have no problem with this but majority of people will charge it with whatever USB-C cable they have lying around. i.e Smartphone low power cable.
But HN seems to value charging everything with USB-C over everything else. And seems to take a world view anyone who dont know enough about USB-C cable or do not buy all USB-C High Power Cable as "mis-informed" if I had to word it politely.
>And the sides of this thing are pretty flat and not curved.
He meant the top and the bottom. Currently being slightly curved on the lip and the bottom edge of the machine.
> I know it's from Kuo, but these leaks don't pass the smell test for me. It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions
I think the first batch of M1 macs should be seen as continuity machines, they made the processor the only differentiating factor in order to make the transition trivial for consumers.
About the sides, i was confused at first but I think the idea is that they will do what they did to the ipad. Compare the first ipad to the ipad pro, the pro lies flat on the table but the first one (and to some extent all ipads before the 2018 pro) has a curved bottom like a boat.
I wonder if removing the Touch Bar has something to do with prepping up the line for gaming. I personally don't dislike the Touch Bar except when I'm playing video games, and Apple Silicon is on a trajectory to be able to run games on a Mac with fairly decent graphics.
For non-curvy design think "Pixelbook" which has two totally flat halves that come together with a cool hinge. Not saying that's where they're going, but that's a modern laptop design that reminds me more of an iPhone 12
> It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions.
Perhaps the idea is that those who buy the base model - regular consumers - like the touchbar, and those who buy the higher-end versions, that is, professionals - don't.
I'm sure some pricing specialist figured that out. Say what you want about Apple, but their sales department knows how to squeeze as much revenue from their customers as they can.
But then why add the TouchBar to the MBP and not the MacBook Air instead? I actually think that the TouchBar would be more popular if it was a consumer thing instead of a "Pro" differentiator.
I can't be the only professional who ordered a cheaper M1 MacBook Air specifically because I want to avoid the TouchBar. If the pricing specialist is playing 4D chess then I don't get it.
Sides are flat, but there's a curve into the screen and the bottom. There's already a sharp edge in that transition, though, which.. is sharp. I'm not sure it would be wise to turn the device into a total brick with 90 degree edges all around.
That would be sad, I really like the touchbar, and I've seen people use it as makeshift sliders for audio and a mini-midi keyboard, and the context-sensitive recommendations are so much more useful to me than F-keys, I'm just way too lazy do memorize multiple layers for different apps. I really do hope they don't go back to plain F-keys only.
If anyone from Apple is reading, let me just say – this is exactly what I want. Magsafe charging. Function keys instead of the touchbar. 15-16" screen. M1 CPU. 32GB Memory.
I also prefer the 2015 keyboard, but it's not a dealbreaker.
I'll pay for the kickstarter now if it means it'll come out in the next 18 months. Please make it happen.
I know you didn‘t mean this literally but the idea of apple doing a kickstarter is hilarious. It would be the logical conclusion of established, VC backed companies like ROLI doing them.
I was a huge MagSafe fan, but USB-C interoperability is just too good to give up IMO. I hope they still support charging via USB-C PD even if they do have MagSafe.
yes, but also the damn trackpad. I feel like i'm getting carpal tunnel just trying to avoid swiping the damn thing with my palm it's so freaking huge. Been 3+ years still feels like it's designed specifically to get in the way of my work.
Agreed, I much prefer the 2X smaller trackpad of the last generation.
At max sensitivity in MacOS you could move so much faster and with less strain on the wrist.
It’s too bad they never adjusted MacOS to compensate for the new massive trackpad, max sensitivity should be higher. It’s like the right hand never told the left what it was doing. But not surprising, considering Apple’s entire organization is built around secrecy and people NOT collaborating.
Unfortunately not, the sensitivity increases don't work like they used to. You can also marginally increase the sensitivity in terminal directly, but again, not enough to compensate for the 2X bigger trackpad.
I think more people need to stop using their laptop keyboard at their main desk. While I agree that Apple’s ergonomics are especially poor, laptop keyboards and trackpads are fundamentally crippled from the get go due to size constraints.
If you’re working from the same desk every day, buy a real keyboard and external trackpad/mouse for the sake of your own wrists. Save the built in keyboard for when you actually need the mobility.
I use a dedicated ergo keyboard (Ergodox EZ) 99.9% of the time, and my wrists thank me. But I also have the dedicated space for that.
Odd, I rest my palm on mine all the time without issue. I believe it has palm detection and is smart enough to ignore the larger surface area of your hand.
I hear you. I have the same thoughts. Touchpads on most laptops have sufficed for my use. People swear by the touchpad on Macbooks, but to me it never really was that big of an improvement. My bias could be due to the fact that I don't use the touchpad exclusively and always attach a mouse when I can.
The X1 isn’t low end. Low end trackpads on windows laptops are still abysmal in most cases.
Anecdotally, there’s a store near me which arranges laptops by price. I often start at the high end and try the keyboard and mouse, working my way to the low end. Somewhere in the middle it changes over from “this is fine” to “it feels like nails on a chalk board”.
Gesture support is also incredible on macOS. It's the little things -- if I start the motion to "show desktop" by spreading my fingers apart on the touchpad, windows will seamlessly start the motion with my fingers. If I decide to abort the gesture with my fingers, windows on the screen match my motion exactly. I can also customize gestures like expose, mission control, desktop switching, etc. to my liking by assigning different gestures to different commands -- I've never used a Windows laptop or any kind of linux environment with that kind of customization, though I'm sure with sufficient work you could get linux to do something like that.
Personally I find gesture support annoying and its functions are better done with keyboard shortcuts - if you want to show the desktop pressing windows-D is much quicker and easier. The first thing I do on a new laptop is find the touchpad settings and turn everything off.
I find it ironic that Apple used to push the one button mice narrative as 2 buttons were overwhelming, yet now you are supposed to contort your fingers into doing a million different gestures on a touch pad.
Bought a mid-tier HP Pavilion recently and cannot _stand_ the touchpad on it. I carry around a USB mouse for that laptop. I largely prefer the mac touchpad because it allows you to click everywhere on the surface, not just the bottom.
HP until recently didn't use precision touch drivers.
When looking for a new laptop it should be the first thing you check in the reviews - if it doesn't have precision touch drivers it goes in the do not buy list.
Maybe I just have big hands or a weird typing posture, but my wrists usually sit either side of the trackpad. Even if they didn't, my trackpad doesn't register my palms as a touch (pretty sure this is a standard feature in most modern laptops).
I haven't used a physical mouse for work in about 5 years, and every time the trackpad gets larger, I'm even less inclined to get a mouse.
I also find it gets in the way with doing everything with a keyboard in my editor and then suddenly my cursor focus is changed by my palm touching the touchpad.
At the same time having the extra spacer on the laptop as a wrist rest is pretty good, imo ergonomically better than a standard external keyboard (opinion informed by countless physio visits to sort out RSI). Also the built in trackpad is substantially better than moving hand position to an external mouse.
You can see the point though, right? I’m personally ok with the trackpad, but compare it with the “nipple” from the old IBM laptops. You could scan across the entire screen with the barest movement of your finger. The minimalism in that design was impressive,
The trackpoint/nipple was awful. It's fetishized now because of anti-apple counterculture but it's a truly horrid pointing device that was only ever popular because early trackpads were that much worse.
A touch screen serves a different role than a trackpad. They could replace the trackpad by a touch screen, like asus’s screenpad, but that comes at the expense of battery life.
Non-Apple laptop user: "It's that ridiculous concept of only being able to enter a right click in a specific area of a track pad. Also, can only scroll by swiping on certain parts of the track pad as well"
2005 called, they want their jokes about PCs back.
Dedicated touchpad areas for right clicking and scrolling haven't been a thing since Windows introduced precision drivers and gestures. IIRC even most linux DEe have the same features.
And yet, the person I replied to in 2021 is still complaining about the size of a right-click area of the track pad. It may be an old joke style (so is saying a year in the past is calling), but it is still valid.
Yeah, of course, you can still find shitty laptops with these issues if you look in the discount bin at Wallmart but for a fair comparison, most new laptops in the MacBook price range (1000+ Euros) don't have touchpads with segmented zones anymore like the ones you're describing.
There you have it. If it doesn't exist on the hardware "I'm" using now, then it's not a problem that should be discussed. I'm Chuck Norris, and I round house kick to the head any laptop that doesn't meet my certifications.
That is unfortunate, and probably a sign of a feature that nobody at Apple (and few external users) bother with. Everyone I know uses two-finger right click and a very small subset of friends use ctrl+click.
Yup. All I want is a 2014-or-so form factor——forever. Update the tech guts year after year, but keep the old design. It’s perfect and requires no more innovation.
While you’re at it, Apple, just keep High Sierra forever and just do bug fixes and security patches. No new features!
Amen, there is such a thing as "perfect design" if you are talking about the narrow envelope for designing a laptop. A screen, a keyboard, there's not a ton of headroom for adding widgets or decreasing sizes in the physical domain. Plus, there is such a thing as "timeless design", and you can see that Apple has already achieved it by the fact that most other laptop vendors are converging on their MacBook designs that are a few years old now. Apple itself took inspiration from timeless, modern and functional industrial design found in things like Braun appliances from the 1960s which, by the way, still look modern today.
When I moved from my 2014 to my current 16" MBP, I immediately fell in love with the smaller and sleeker new design. Its lighter and has a bigger screen - how are those not improvements?
And, honestly, I'm glad with their push for USB-C, no audio jack etc. Most companies are stuck in the status quo due to the chicken-and-egg problem but Apple is willing to be the first mover.
Audio jack is another one. I have some nice open-back headphones and they don't have USB. I think it's actually fairly unreasonable to expect the entire audiophile headphone market to convert to digital; it makes more sense to do the DA conversion on the phone/computer, especially since some audio sources are analog anyway.
I solved this issue by simply getting a few USB-C cables for my keebs. I even managed to find a USB-C to miniUSB cable for my HHKB. It has to be a fairly specific type of cable mind you. Anything marketed at USB 2.0 should work great.
As powerful as laptops are now, yes, lots of of creatives use laptops. There's entire industry (well, were before covid) of doing fast turn time on-site on video/photo editing. Lugging desktops around in giant cases paying surcharges for heavy and extra bag charges on airlines is incredibly expensive.
Also can the function keys be grouped in groups of 4, with extra space between groups? I am forced to use an external keyboard already because of the touchbar and the 2017 keyboard, and it solves all of my problems except that the function keys are hard to hit especially during debugging. It's the little things!
Didn't they already do this though? The mid-2020 MBP got the new keyboard which moved away from the super thin keys and back to a thicker switch. It's still thinner than the 2015 keyboard, but it's the exact same functional design.
Thanks. I've got Magic Keys install which does the same thing however it is a bit hit and miss unfortunately. I'll check this out though it seems to not be maintained anymore.
This is one of the most profitable businesses on the planet (large margins / overpriced products on a giant volume), they really don't need or care about any kickstarter.
You want to influence the company - get > $200B worth of shares to agree with you and then get a board seat. Anything else won't matter (and even then it won't be easy due to the track record of current management).
Edit: Anyone care to explain what's wrong with the above?
It's not fully impossible to build an up-to-specs magnetic USB C connector, it just hasn't happened yet. I am 100% if anyone ever pulls it off, it'll be Apple.
> No, because per the spec, and current technological limitations, there is no way to do a proper connector and logic board.
> It might be possible some day with active electronics, and special electrooptical couplers. But I haven't seen any yet.
Written by Nathan Kolluru. He and Benson Leung were the two guys who did early through technical reviews of USB C cables, later he joined Google as well as a Hardware Engineer, Technical Program Manager. They gave this presentation recently https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/D1T2-3b%20-%20USB%20... In other words, he actually knows what he is talking about USB C wise, unlike little me :D Interesting writings on USB C hw at https://medium.com/@kolluru.nathan
Edit: please, ffs, stop recommending non specs compliant garbage magnetic connectors. One, you might have very serious ESD issues because now your USB C pins are much more exposed than the normal connector. Two, you might have very serious data integrity issues because those pogo pins do not and can not adhere to the very rigorous specs. I find it absolutely astonishing that people would trust a thousand dollar electronic device on a piece of uncertified cable transmitting 100W and tens of gigabits...
I see some 24 pin "magnetic usb-c" adapters with 100W PD and TB3 compatibility on Amazon/Aliexpress. They need an existing cable so likely they just pass-thru cable capability discovery to an existing chip. Apart of some wear issues, reviews are rather positive. Anyone tried such?
I got one recently. Haven't had it for long enough to see wear issues, but I'm surprised how well it's worked. Biggest annoyance is that it's sensitive to being jostled. When it was just power, that didn't matter so much, but when it's connected to my docking station, it's the same as yanking the cable. It's staying, for now, but I have to be careful moving things around on my desk.
Edit to address sibling concern: It's running a TB3 screen, so seems to be working for that...
Wanted to wait until this dropped off the front page out of respect for chx's concerns.
In that vein, let me say that I have neither the skills nor the equipment to evaluate any of chx's technical concerns. The best I can say is that it seems to do what I want (pass power and TB3 with a magnetic coupling), and there haven't been any symptoms of problems that I've been able to see. Yet. I'm now a little worried, though :|
They can pass USB 3 through, but you can't run anything beyond that. No video, no thunderbolt. I've tried several variants of them, they're all the exact same product and they don't work.
They could put all the USB C logic required for power negotiation in the molded connector of a USB C cable and expose 5 contacts on the magnetic side of the connector. [gnd-pwr-data-pwr-gnd] that lets you plug it in either way.
You would then have a cable that was USB C PD on one end and MagSafe on the other. You could carry your USB-MagSafe cable and still use any USB C power source, or bring one with if you like.
It isn't a full USB C with it's score of hair thin wires, but it lets you have some beefy power and ground contacts and enough I/O to chat about voltages, currents, and what color an LED might want to be.
Reading this, it feels like the MacBook Pro of 2015 is finally getting an upgrade.
Took them 5 years to go back and restore the old school.
Great to hear a couple iterations ago they restored the keyboard. Now with dropping the touch bar and bringing back mag safe. My 2015 daily driver might see retirement.
The comparative overall height of the keyboard modules is more than 0.3mm different, and the new computers are dramatically thinner and lighter than the previous ones. The overall effect is a substantial improvement. I don't use the touchbar too much, but it is a moderate improvement over F keys for me (I appreciate the return of a physical escape key).
Subjectively these two keyboards are pretty similar (I slightly prefer the previous ones). Scissor switches are all pretty mediocre; the shape to fit in a laptop just forces very sharp compromises on the design.
I also think making the key tops larger was a mistake, but it is also a relatively marginal difference in practice. Part of the goal may have been to increase the space available for international legends. (That's why IBM and every other vendor increased desktop-keyboard keytop size and switched from a spherical to cylindrical shape in the 1980s.)
In terms of typing experience alone, I like the Apple laptop keyboards from circa 2002 better than any of the laptop keyboards since. And the Mac Portable keyboard from 1989 is way better. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Portable
* * *
Edit: in response to: > TrackPad, being too large in Post 2015 models causing much higher false positives
Moving your left hand slightly left and your right hand substantially to the right relative to a typical US-ANSI keyboard will keep you from accidentally palm-swiping the trackpad.
For someone who has worked as a travelling consultant for almost ten years, I couldn't care less about thinness. Obviously I don't want to carry any bricks around. But the thickness of 2013 models was totally fine for me. It allows for even more battery packs and room for cooling, as well as an Ethernet port. Shocking. There used to be laptops that actually included Ethernet ports, without any Thunderbolt dongles, that become finicky if you plug and unplug them everyday. /sarcasm off
Personally I think the versions with 4 USB type-C ports are great and can't wait for peripheral devices to catch up; several versatile ports is much better overall than the mishmash of different types of special-purpose ports for peripherals, displays, networking, charging. Anything that needs a particular legacy port can be done just fine via dongle. It is unfortunate that some laptops have only 2 USB type-C ports though.
The batteries are bottlenecked on FAA limits, not laptop thickness. And in future Mac laptops with ARM chips, cooling is no issue.
Which is what the parents meant. We dont need thicker laptop for bigger battery because we already hit that limit. And with lots of battery improvement coming in the next 5 years they could have made the same 100Whr battery smaller without sacrificing other features.
When everything is connected via USB type-C you have to trust way more. Currently, I don't have to trust the outlet in the wall, since it only has two or three connectable lines, and I plugin my vacuum cleaner, I am pretty sure it will only transfer energy, no data. But in a speculative future with USB type-C connected vacuum cleaners and USB ports installed in the house, I'll always wonder whether there is some backdoor somewhere in the house, that infects the firmware of my vacuum cleaner. I know this sounds like paranoia, it is not. I used to know that a sd-card connected to the sd-card reader doesn't send key strokes to my computer or uses my network to phone home. In a world where everything is connected via USB type-C those kinds of assumptions are pure speculation. And don't get me started on the different kinds of cables for USB type-C.
Barring the reliability issues, the butterfly keyboard is my favorite, even over the 2015. That said, they are all good and don’t matter enough to sway what machine to buy.
>the butterfly keyboard is my favorite, even over the 2015. That said, they are all good and don’t matter enough to sway what machine to buy.
That is exactly the problem!
There are people who love the butterfly, they seems to prefer the mushy key typing experience. That is fine, but those same people dont hate scissors either.
But there are enough people hate the butterfly keyboard. To the point of hoarding 2015 MacBook Pro. You dont need any Internet forum to judge, we can judge the market by 2nd hand MacBook Pro pricing. There are demand for good quality 2015 MacBook Pro simply because of the keyboard.
The same goes with Trackpad, some people love larger trackpad, but they wont go mad with a smaller one. And then there are people who have palms that couldn't even use the new MacBook Pro.
Basically both of these are the wrong trade offs and compromise.
And both of these design decisions were all post Steve Jobs' making.
Ah, I thought the whole bringing back of the Scissor mechanism had brought the glory back.
Reminds me of a blog post (via HN of course) that discussed how Apple is hurting itself by being obsessed with making devices smaller (Ugh, can't find the link).
A friend was grilling his boss who was fan boying over a particular iPhone release. Where the device was 10% thinner. In the real world it was a 1mm difference.
I personally prefer the 2020 keyboard over my previous 2013 one. Just feels nicer to type on, for me personally. I really hated all of the butterfly keyboards.
Except that they make them thin at the expense of sturdiness, so everybody needs to get a case for their iPhone to avoid breaking the thing if they drop it more than a couple of feet.
Hm, I was under the impression that the sturdiness was mostly tied to materials, mainly usage of glass instead of plastic. A lighter phone should at least in theory be less breakable. Bendiness is another thing though.
Exactly what I was thinking. I have been seriously dreading the day my 2015 Pro finally gives up on me. This news couldn't have come at a better time, I just hope it's true!
The touchbar is a whole bunch of tech they manufacture that seems to add little value. I expect it to cut cost and complexity in the most obvious way (literally just shave off 65 dollars from the laptop, regain some space if possible). Make the function keys super small and increase track pad size, or add more vents.
^ This might be the first iteration setting up for the end state of what will be the long term vision.
Exciting, love seeing them grind out the little (but ambitious) improvements on what most companies would consider ‘perfect as is’ product.
——-
For Apple at this point, I think, getting people to buy a 1100 MacBook + AirMax headphones is better than trying to get them buy not-so-obvious high end $1600 laptop.
Always felt like a bit of marketing to me. Nobody would buy the laptops if they said "this thing is 10x slower than a random desktop cobbled together from parts purchased on Ebay, and gets hot enough to burn your lap when you use it as a laptop", so they kind of had no choice but to add some sort of whizbang wowie zowie add-on to stand out from PC laptops (that also used the same slow and inefficient CPUs). Now that their laptops are as fast as desktops and use very little power, they can sell them on computing power alone, meaning they don't need to inflate the BOM with gizmos and gadgets. One less thing to break. Good riddance, I say.
When the 2016 line came out, I told colleagues that I didn't see it as a 'professional' device. Thinking in particular for photographers who depended on the SD card slot.
And hoped that Apple would release a 'classic' line one day.
I’m very dubious about the ports rumor. What ports would that be? USB-A makes no sense. HDMI would, but would it fit? If they add Mini-hdmi then you’d need a dongle anyways. As it is I think the only good candidate is a SD card reader.
That would be welcome. Although I must say that I very very much enjoy the 'one cable' lifestyle. All peripherals either hang off my screen when at home or off a single dongle when on the go (in the latter case I use a separate power cable)
While i do like the typing feel very much, the mechanism is unreliable. Every few weeks i get some random key stuck where i will need to press it really hard to engage. So far all stuck keys loosen up after 1-2 days, but it is very annoying.
> Took them 5 years to go back and restore the old school.
I'd view it differently. It took them 5 years for customers to be happy to see nothing more than the most regular and boring update while paying even higher premium on it than before.
In other words, because it took them so long to deliver a regular spec update, customers are now happy to pay higher margin prices.
I was literally just commenting to a co-worker about how I haven't used my touch bar even once in the past year.
Give us TACTILE interfaces! I don't want to accidentally push a virtual button just by brushing my hand across a smooth surface.
Honestly, what would actually be pretty cool would be tactile keyboard buttons with screens built into their surfaces. That way you could actually assign visual hints to your function keys, and they could still require tactile presses to use. That will unfortunately probably never happen though, due to manufacturing costs and complexity.
Maybe I'm in the minority here but; I'd buy an iPhone with a tactile keyboard in a heartbeat if they offer it. I get where they were going with a virtual keyboard, and I agree with what Jobs said when they announced the first iPhone. The accuracy of a virtual keyboard, however, is just painfully bad.
And THAT will make me finally replace my MacBook Pro 2015. No touch bar, MagSafe, good amount of ports. The iPhone 12-esque design is a good bonus too (I like it more than all others before it).
Only took 5-6 years but I am again excited about MacBooks.
lol, I was thinking I'm the only one sitting with my 2015 macpro ^_^ love this laptop, however it got super slow and the battery life is almost zero, which is fine after almost 4 years of serving.
2014 version here. It looks like someone ran over it with a forklift after I sent it as checked luggage once (they probably did just that), but I won't upgrade to a Mac unless they're able to make them compelling again.
Oh, there's plenty of us out there holding on to the last sensible MacBook that Apple has made.
I really want this rumor to be true. It would mean that Apple finally got through its phase of trying to appeal to non-professionals -- or professionals with looser ergonomic requirements.
If you haven't, a wipe + reinstall of macOS does help the slowness/battery life issues a bit. (had to do that on a 2016 MBP which was acting up and it made a difference. Although make sure not to format as APFS when wiping it!)
I finally cracked about a year ago and replaced my 2015 MBP 15 with a 2020 MBP 16.
Now I'm gonna swap it once this thing comes out.
Experiences thus far with the MBP16:
- MBP16 has 64GM RAM and can run several IDEs at once, I can compile a project and do other stuff without feeling any lag. It does make the fans come on, which is expected.
- Still stutters on certain games, but it wasn't purchased for that. Kinda surprising though, I maxed out all the options minus the disk size when I bought it.
- The key travel is just right, I think slightly less than the 2015 version but more than my wife's 2018. Goldilocks.
- The Touch Bar is ok, not something I'll miss. I've set it up with BetterTouchTool to have a combination of the open apps and a thing to pull up iTerm2. A minor nuisance is I'll be typing something and I slightly touch the bar, and it pulls up another app.
- It eats battery. With my old set of MacBooks, you could never tell which power adapter it was connected to, because it didn't matter whether it was a slightly lower power. With the 16 it's noticeable. If there wasn't a virus lockdown I'd probably struggle to take it out to a café for a day's work.
- Screen is beautiful as always. They seem to have found a way to reduce the bezel size, because the 2015 and 2020 models look to be pretty much the same size externally. They actually fit nicely one on top of the other when closed.
- Larger trackpad is ok, not killer. Maybe it helps some people's wrists to not have to move all the way to the middle.
Reasons for upgrade:
- Less energy use could make the thing properly mobile
- Should be a noticeable speed increase
- MagSafe makes it feel safer. I have kids, the USB ports seem like they could easily get broken if someone steps on a cable. For now I've got adapters anyway, in order to make use of all my old MagSafe chargers, but it would be nice to have it all the way up to the port.
If you're having issues with battery when you're not plugged in, I can highly recommend Turbo Boost Switcher (http://tbswitcher.rugarciap.com/) to disable Intel turbo boost. I've noticed no slowdown or performance decrease, but my fans spin up MUCH less often and my battery lasts a couple hours more.
I suppose it goes to show just how badly Intel has screwed up in recent years -- so much development went into this "Turbo Boost" feature that heats up processors hugely under any sustained workload in a way that no laptop can properly keep up with. In certain cases it could make sense ("my project takes 20 seconds to compile, and then the processor basically shuts off") but I routinely end up pegging the CPU at max for 10s of minutes at a time for huge compilations, and the minute the fans spin up I know that Turbo Boost is about to thermal throttle my CPU into oblivion.
I use macfan control to force a lower fan rate which throttles the cpu. Battery is significantly better (feels like 2x at least) for mundane tasks. I can still watch videos, browse and do light work without feeling any slowdown.
My macbook has terrible sharp edges that dig into your wrist, the usb-c ports are so close together I cant put 2 plugs in as they hit each other, one of the keys is faulty because its a butterfly model, it has wizz bang touch bar but no physical mic mute button, a few key caps have worn off as they are laser etched rather than double shot, the giant touchpad sometimes zooms while typing at random if my palms hit it in some combination it assumes is a zoom gesture.
Overall his designs are great for the showroom but suck for usability.
Jony Ive always needed someone as a critic to keep his designs in check. That person used to be Steve Jobs. It's pretty well known that Tim Cook is hands off when it comes to product design. And Jony Ive used to have heated arguments with Scott Forestall - until he was fired because of the whole Apple Maps thing.
So for a good chunk of time Jony Ive had no one to rein him in and the result was minimalism run amok. Not that minimalism is bad but I think you all know what I'm getting at.
1. The two new models are equipped with about 14-inch and 16-inch displays, respectively.
2. In terms of casing design, the new models cancel the curvy design of existing models’ top and bottom parts and adopt a flat-edged form factor design similar to the iPhone 12 .
3. The MagSafe charging connector design is restored.
4. The OLED touch bar is removed, and the physical function buttons are restored.
5. There is no Intel CPU option for the new models.
6. They are equipped with more types of I/O, and most users may not need to purchase additional dongles.
Touch Bar would have been more useful had they have an external keyboard with it. Almost no developers supported it because it was only available on a subset of devices. And then only in the case when people actually use the internal keyboard. I guess this excludes a lot of people who hook their computers to an external keyboard, screen and so on all the time.
It’s quite like 3D Touch in this sense. (But I actually liked 3D Touch, unlike the Touch Bar)
Yes! Apple sells ~18-21 million Macs a year. Out of those no MacBook Air, no iMac, no Mac mini, no iMac Pro, no Mac Pro, and some models of 13" MacBook Pro have the Touch Bar. Apple never went all-in on it. Though I'm happy if they're indeed going back to physical function keys.
I did this too, one downside though is that it's become such muscle memory for me at this point that using someone else's computer always results in my hitting caps lock instead of escape the first few times.
I’ve mapped it to ctrl for a while now and I’ll never go back either. In vim I use ctrl—[ for Esc, which I only started to do when the MBP added the Touch Bar.
I agree after a year or so with my 16" MBP. My first attitude was that it was useless after hearing years of complaints. This machine has the physical escape key and I believe that combination really works.
I'm not using the Touch Bar constantly, even when typing on the built-in keyboard. Discovery is slow because you have to become familiar with which options are available in specific applications and for specific contexts. This is a legitimate problem. Over time I've built up a decent number of uses that I know are there and make life better.
The negativity is unreasonable to me. It would be very interesting to know how much a Touch Bar increases the cost of each MacBook. To me it seems Apple took a section of the keyboard very, very few users used and replaced it with something that probably can be helpful to most users at least some of the time.
This is the laptop I want to buy, but I find it really hard to believe. They just released a new ARM Macbook Pro with a touch bar at the bottom end of the Pro lineup, which didn't used to come with a touch bar (I have ~2017 pro without). If they wanted to drop the touch bar they could have done it without much fanfare on that model and I'm not sure why they wouldn't do so.
Feels like they're doing only one change at a time - they keep the same chassis which is already proven, and they change the internals only. The next iteration can update the design of chassis while the internals remains the same.
It was probably easier for them to keep the touch bar there as the enclosure is pretty much identical to the previous model. Maybe they had a stock of them to finish while retooling?
Yeah, doesn't pass the sniff test, does it? "All the things you ever wanted with no details on what or why".
Also to be blunt – none of this sounds compelling to me. I know people have different requirements and use-cases, but I find the touchbar is fine, USB-C is great, and I'm not missing any ports. YMMV but I'm extremely skeptical.
I wonder about the amount of memory they will support. Based on this article and reviews of the M1 so far, this looks a lot like a “take my money ASAP” situation.
Now also say goodbye to the high-gloss screen (don't tie the design aesthetic to a glossy top, and offer matte display options), make a strong statement about the ability to switch off notarization for good, and you're golden for developers like me once again, Apple.
I am typing this on the M1 Air. I had the Pro with a Touch Bar before. I don't miss the Touch Bar per se, but I did like the ability to customize it for my liking. I also liked scrubbing on video or music software. The escape key is back on all MacBooks now including Touch Bar. I guess I am still on the fence about the Touch Bar and its usability. I think apple envisioned more developer adoption and novelty.
I really wanted to like the Touch Bar for scrubbing, but then I hooked up the external monitor and the Bluetooth magic keyboard and...
To this day I can not figure out why Apple doesn’t sell an external Touch Bar of some kind, for use by the actual professional video editors out there.
To be clear, I’m an amateur at video and I do know there are lots of dedicated tools from scrubber dials to keyboards.
The part I can’t figure out is why Apple has this “pro” tech for which the most obvious and most hyped use-case is video editing, but they don’t sell any version of it a professional video editor could actually use.
I hope this comes to pass. I have a late 2011 Macbook Pro that finally died a few months back and I want to get a new machine. Because of Covid I haven't needed or been able to travel so my desktop has sufficed. Once things open up again I'll need a mobile option.
The touchbar is neat but almost entirely useless for my workflow. It just takes up space and is honestly the main reason I haven't bought another machine.
I love magsafe and would like to see it come back but if it just had USB-C that would be fine.
No touchbar, new apple silicon, more ports (ethernet please!) - i'll be getting one.
I feel for badly for users that adopted the touch bar into their workflow... It never should have been a thing. For those that do use it, an alternative solution could easily be implemented by using a touch display. e.g. touch the bottom left or right of the screen and the OS displays something similar to the touch bar. This might be the first valid use case for having touch functionality on a laptop.
If I had to pick between USB-C charging and MagSafe, I'd pick MagSafe for accident prevention. The option to use USB-C or MagSafe charging would be a win for everyone.
The only problem with that is that it won't be able to reliably carry Thunderbolt 4 speeds. Most of those connectors are "USB-C" which is achievable, but I haven't seen any (verified) Thunderbolt 3 magnetic connectors, even.
That's important for Pro Display XDR users, or Thunderbolt dock users, who only use one cable to plug their Macbook in (power+thunderbolt).
Or, screw it, we end up with a charging only breakway USB-C port.
I mean, if they change the current USB-C to USB-C charging cable to a magnetic breakaway one, I imagine they'll increase the price of the cable if bought separately.
And if they move to the iPhone MagSafe charging puck design, I imagine they'll sell those separately.
I really hope they keep USB-C charging. It's my favourite thing because allows me use to use one cable with external monitors and be able to charge my laptop from both sides.
I don't understand the port fetish. I admit my mac use case doesn't involve plugging much of anything into my machine, but Type C is pretty ubiquitous by now.
It is? To this day I'm buying new peripherals that only offer micro-USB and come with a cable with regular USB on the other end. I'm talking devices made within the last couple of years. In fact I'd say that's been my experience with every purchase I've made besides my refurbed Pixel 3 XL. USB-C definitely doesn't seem ubiquitous to me.
As I replied to another post: I've gone Type C only since about a year ago.
I guess I should have been clearer to point out that's it's still quite possible to(common?) to buy non-type C devices (you can still buy DE-9 serial devices too), but it's certainly possibly to buy a Type C version of almost anything (external drive/card reader/a lamp...).
Not really. From top of my head I could easily gather > 30 things at my house with the plain old USB A connector (several flash drives, keyboards, mouses, Bluetooth and WiFi adapters, smart card reader, external hdd enclosures, a stack of old laptops, r-pi, headphones, routers, playstation, tv, car diagnostics cables and probably several other things I can't remember). There are USB A connectors in all 3 cars in my family. And probably a dozen more devices with mini/micro USB - dslr camera, couple of tablets and older phones, dashcams, thermal imaging camera, powerbank...
Meanwhile there are exactly 3 devices with usb-c ports - 2 phones and one of several laptops (which also has several usb a ports). The only regular use of USB C for me is charging my phone. Everything else is on USB A or micro USB.
But I think most household will be using USB-A, USB-C, HDMI, and possibly lightning for years and years. My sister bought noise-cancelling Bose headphones last year and they still had micro-USB.
I just spent a week getting an Ethernet adapter for my 13" MBP.
It hit me -- hey, solve this latency issue by using wired ethernet. Then I remembered, HEY, I already HAVE an adapter. Chained my apple-multi-port-adapter to my apple usb-to-ethernet adapter. Wait, why are things worse than WiFi? Oh, right, USB type A, probably USB2.0 or whatever. Limited to 93Mbps.
Go to apple store online, order Thunderbolt to Ethernet adapter. I've made the mistake of buying a USB-C dock instead of a Thunderbolt dock, won't make that mistake again!
It arrives, it's Thunderbolt 2 so it can't plug into my machine.
What about a touch screen? Anything that might have been good about the old touch bar could then be just an app blending in at the bottom / top / side.
Aside from obviously needing it once running most iOS apps on the device.
Plus: there is no 16" touch display in the lineup yet, this would be something adding value also to touch apps.
I have a bunch of USB-C adapters hanging around for different usage and they all have their own caveats with different combinations and different monitors. You get all sort of issues with frame rate, data transfer bandwidth, not enough power to charge the laptop, overheating etc.
All because Apple couldn't be bothered to either keep more ports in their "PRO" lineup, or at least design and sell a quality dock station for "pro" users that works without those caveats, performance and quality issues, overheating, etc. Apple only makes low-end single or max three ports adapters that aren't capable of doing anything serious. It's just lame that they aren't making a high-end loaded dock station for pro users. I hope they just do it, and they do it without crazy price tag.
If the assertions regarding the fully-flat design are true, there is hope that this new model will resemble the greatest portable Mac of the 21st century: the PowerBook G4.
For the uninitiated, watch the video of Steve Jobs announcing it at MacWorld San Francisco 2001.
I like the touchbar! Especially now that the esc key is physical. I never use f keys, and I like knowing what the “key” is going to do before I touch/press it. And 100x so for family members that were afraid of those keys.
I agree. Function keys are abstract, useful for particular niche cases. Done right, the touchbar seems like a better solution. I'm glad they brought back a physical ESC, for sure, but I don't think going back to function keys is actually a step forward. It also seems like an un-apple thing to do.
I'd like more ports. But I'm not sold on the idea of going back to an HDMI port, displayport, etc. I'd rather see the world switch everything to USB-C than see Apple go back to one of each port. I'd like to be able to hook up a half dozen monitors, or a half dozen network connections, or a half dozen hard drives, or ... you get the idea.
The touchbar wouldn't be so bad if it was further away from the number keys. The touchbar is ridiculously sensitive, so typing numbers means risking hitting it, then suddenly my computer unmutes.
The new machines are great. I used a 2011 Air forever, having a high-DPI air was on my list, so when the new ones dropped, I ordered an i7 in March... which I recently sold on Swappa since I had to upgrade to an M1 :)
But of course, no magsafe, and only 16GB of RAM, so if it's your daily workhorse I can see waiting for the 14" MBP with more RAM and beefier chips.
The only macbook I would buy at this point is a 2015 model, give me the old keyboard I could actually type on, magsafe, and no annoying touch bar. I've been using a 2018 macbook pro literally every day for three years and have never once used the touch bar for anything that wasnt previously mapped to a function key. 2015 macbook air is still the best laptop in the world.
If true, it may be too little, too late for me - and no mention of going back to a good pre-butterfly keyboard either. I will be looking for a nice OLED Windows computer about then (3Q21), with user replaceable RAM and M.2 SSDs, Thunderbolt 4 and maybe a small GPU for a bit of light ML. I already switched from an iPhone and have stopped upgrading my MBPs above 10.14.
Yes. No touch bar. I prefer real buttons. More ports. We regular USB is still a thing in spite of what they might think. Don't you dare touch the 3.5 mm audio jack! Leave it alone. Nobody gives a shit that the laptops are half a centimeter thick when they need all these stupid adapters / dongles to have basic functionality.
I presently have my 2020 MBA connected to two QHD displays. I couldn't get it to work with a single dock cable, but I connect the dock (which has lots of other peripherals) and one display direct to the second USB-C.
I've been holding out upgrading for the last 2-3 years because I really don't want the Touch Bar. I have one with my work laptop and I only ever accidentally hit it. Having the physical music and volume control buttons on my current laptop is a significant usability improvement for me.
I use a USB-C to mag-charging adapter on my ipad pro, and I love it.
I like the idea of using repairable components like this because if my mag-charger gets broken by a toddler, the usb-c port is fine and I just get a new one without having to pay $300 to repair the ipad.
It will be interesting to see what the new "Mag-Safe" looks like. I doubt that it will be USB C-based, but if it is, I hope it isn't like these stupid "USB C MagSafe" charging cords that are out now.
The only dream feature missing is a smaller trackpad. Doesn’t have to be as small as the 2015 one, but it should have more bezel so I don’t bump it accidentally like now. Unless you have huge hands, the current size is unwarrented.
:( I love the Touch Bar, I love to configure it per application to have the most common shortcut on the top left part of it (in Terminal that's the alt as mod for me).
Properly configured it really speeded my workflows.
The problem with the Touch Bar is, merely grazing it ever so slightly with a fingertip causes countless freaky side effects.
I've reverted to a straight, function-key-icons-only Touch Bar and it's still a problem for me.
I estimate since 2018 — the year I bought this MBP — I've had tens of thousands of irritating inadvertent errors interrupt my flow.
So frustrating. If this ships as described, I'm ordering one on Day 1 and then I'm NEVER going to use this Touch Bar MBP again.
Touch Bar was a stupid idea. It should have been optional, not default. Had it been optional from the start, there's no way it would still be an option, it would be discontinued years ago. Because few people would be ordering a Touch Bar MBP after they tried it for an ownership cycle.
I've tried Better Touch Tool and Pock and I just can't get into the habit of using it. It just doesn't solve enough problems that I'm compelled to use it.
It's not necessarily to solve problems, but open a new method of interacting with your computer.
I've loved the usefulness of it when watching media, quickly opening man pages for the command I'm running. Having a touchbar pet running around when I'm having a bad time
I just wonder if the touch bar was so great, why did they never release it on the wireless magic keyboard? Users have to learn different application-specific workflows depending on whether they're on laptop or display and external keyboard. It's optional to keep the same workflow, but then touchbar becomes a worse version of a keyboard with no added functionality.
The touchbar was their excuse to get a non-Intel chip into the 2016+ Intel models.
It failed at pretty much all it's use cases - it is not available when the laptop is closed, and it's too far when you're at a desk with external keyboard attached even if you don't go clamshell.
It was the ROKR of the Intel->ARM transition - a stalking horse that showed Apple had to go all-in.
To be honest, the TouchBar was one the reasons why I still haven't upgraded my MacBook (first Retina). I bought a PC laptop to tie me over until they reverted this change.
Good point.
Most people are going to be using this for presentations or for connecting to a TV. If you're going to need an adapter since most cables are full sized hdmi, then why not just use an adapter from usb-c?
Please add back the SD/micro-SD port. I loved that feature on older Macs. It's annoying to have to use a USB converter to import pictures to your laptop.
Volume and brightness control sliders are nicer than the keyboard keys IMO. For plenty of applications I use the contextual shortcuts from the touchbar instead of memorizing keyboard shortcuts which is very convenient. I don't even really think about what I use it for now...I just use it, as if it was a regular extension of the muscle memory from my keyboard. It took a bit to acclimate but I've been using it for over a year now and I don't even think about it now.
I don't see the point of the F-keys returning. If no touchbar then just use layers on top of the numerals, like other laptops and programmable keyboards.
The article states: "5. There is no Intel CPU option for the new models.", so it would have to be Apple Silicon. But of course this is just rumors, it sounds maybe too good to be true.
I hear they found a team in the basement. It's a G5 running Copland. CyberDog is replacing Safari and the new AppleWorks 7 transparently imports documents from iWork.
Why is it that software engineers can understand the idea of software ports and adapters, but collectively seem to lose their minds when the idea of physically manifest?
USB-C is the one port to rule them all, and is here to stay.
Every single dongle I’ve used, without fail, runs stupidly hot and inevitably has random failures within ~6 months (display channels drop out, network adapter disappears, USB devices chug) and concentrating all peripheral load into one port almost always leads to thermal throttling issues (https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find...).
My take is that with few exceptions, USB-C is basically for connecting to non-apple stuff. And non-apple stuff is not at the bleeding edge.
Apple stuff is basically wireless.
A decent apple system that would be helpful instead of courageous would have: a USB-A port, an HDMI port and a headphone jack. Then go crazy with USB-C, fine.
If they do this I won't be able to resist buying one. I want to resist though and be one of those people who uses a laptop with libreboot and OpenBSD.
... We are Apple. Lower your principles and surrender your dollars. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
I will happily resist - between price and performance, the combo MBP 2016/iphone XS was one of the worst investments of my life. Next laptop will be be a Thinkpad or some other Linux-friendly device, I might have to mess with it a bit more but at least I won't feel like a cow being milked.
