I feel like I'm out of touch with current western culture, I honestly feel like I'm becoming an old fart at the age of 30.
Everything is becoming increasingly infantile. Everything has to be fun and cool. I'm wondering where is this trend coming from. Is this some sort of a social response to how terrible and bleak reality seems to be? Or maybe it's because we actually treat majority of people like little children. If one looks how the current enterprises work, the person within them have very limited decision making power and access to information. In a way that reminds me of a quote from interview with Erich Fromm[1]: "It is true that one has to think first and then to act -but it's also true that if one has no possibility of acting, one's thinking kind of becomes empty and stupid.".
Any other ideas? Or maybe it's actually not happening at all, and it's only me who's not getting it.
PS: OP, I don't mean that as criticism of your product, I think it correctly identifies and addresses the need. It's the why is it even a need part I'm curious about.
I don't know about that - I'm a little older than you, and I remember when the web was more like this. GeoCities and MySpace allowed tons of customization, and everybody made their own barf on a page to express themselves.
Then sometime in the mid 2000s everything online became sanitized and corporate.
I think there's a line somewhere between expressiveness and infantility. It's actually corporate that pushes the latter through the way they add those ways of expression to their products.
I'm not saying everything has to be boring and same everywhere, I'd like to see the world that's actually quite the opposite, that's diverse and where people are pushing the boundaries of expression. Where I see infantilisation happening is where things with very low information ratio (and usually something evoking one of the basic emotions with high valence and high arousal) are described as fun and cool.
I think OP's product is sitting somewhere on that border, but their marketing angle is definitely pushing it towards the infantility. Just look at the title of this very post, but I guess it worked, in the end we've all clicked on the comments and are here.. :)
I'd describe the mid 2000s aesthetic as "Professional", while current trends are "Genuine". Snaps, stories, livestreams, and other volatile social media became chic because it would go away - you didn't have to rehearse your words, worry about lighting, or ensure your images are perfectly aligned.
I really dug this Reslash concept after seeing that grainy image of a classroom used as a background. It's something you just slap on because you're about to teach, but it isn't a painfully constructed "Knowledge Session" with a stock image-riddled Powerpoint deck.
Don't forget BBSes and even AOL/Prodigy, Everything used to be more tongue in cheek, and required a bit of discovery to figure out.
Personally, I think it's been downhill since someone decided we needed ui/ux designers instead of sleep deprived developers who assumed it was always the (l)users fault for not being able to figure out how to use things. Sure, it has made things easier to use for the masses, but I don't care about the masses.
I think the internet was much better when most of my family and friends didn't know how to use it.
But yeah, I know it's basically a necessity now, and I understand that services need to cater to as many people as possible. I just wanted to be a cranky old nerd for a bit :-)
The web has always been a mish-mash of crazy hippie stuff alongside dry boring stuff. There was a lot of personalized personal webpages sure, but also search engines used to look dry and boring and emojis in chat were limited to what you could do with ASCII art (compared to the insane amount of animated sticker spammy-ness that a teen might use these days).
With that said, I do agree with GP with regards to things outside of the web: products have a lot more franchise placements (e.g. disney-themed shampoos), and school for my kids have a lot more of an artsy/hippie feel than I remember my dry seats-facing-forward education some 30 years ago. Gaming among adults is far more socially accepted than 30 years ago - you wouldn't even bat an eyelid at an old lady playing candy crush in the bus these days. Etc.
I suspect an increase in middle class disposable income might have something to do with this. Look, for example, at how culture progressed over the decades in Japan. Nowadays, you have grown adults who are into moe[0] stuff, along all sort of "infantile" subcultures (by western standards).
A related development I find interesting is the increasing denial of accountability. More and more, people focus on the ways that things aren't their fault or focus on things that they can't change. It's to a point where IMO people are basically treating themselves and each other as children, with the tired old mantras that children often use: it's not my fault, they started it, everyone else is doing it too, etc. It doesn't matter too much to me. I've always focused on the ways I can improve myself and my life without worrying too much about how things could have been better if XYZ. But I do think the people who participate in this aspect of infantilization culture may be holding themselves without even realizing it.
Thanks for your comment! fwiw, pls note that your critique would apply equally to any concern that society wishes to "push up the stack". Collectivizing challenges (rather than individualizing them) is what pretty much all societal progress is built on...
But that process will always look like people saying "this isn't my fault" and focussing on "something they can't change [by themselves]".
Anyhow, not saying your intuition are wrong (there are degrees I agree with), but just noting it has some fuzzy edges that point toward some weird truisms
We probably just have different viewpoints, and the "fuzzy edges" may be areas we don't agree. I am very aware of what my views are, whereas you imply I may be unaware. I find it useful to not waste too much time worrying about challenges and instead focus on solutions and opportunity. This has allowed me to come from childhood poverty into an adulthood that successfully provides me the life I want, without hangups or emotional baggage. If other people find success through different strategies, that's great. But as I said, I can't help but think that many people are only holding themselves back by focusing on things that are out of their control
Interesting. Perhaps you're right of disagreement. Yes, the world is definitely filled with two sorts of thinkers along this axis we're alluding to, that's for sure.
My analysis: A focus on "challenge" is the framing someone takes when they're more enamoured with the infinitely wide possibility space around any system (* raises hand * guilty), while "solutions/actions" tend to be valourized when someone is more interested in the point of collapse of the possibility space, where possibilities condense into reality.
Both are the right and wrong tools at the same time imho. Too much of either is dysfunctional. I'm certainly dysfunctional in some situations with my predispositions, but superhuman in others. I assume there are also some places where you feel maladapted (though perhaps your neurotype doesn't translate this into uncertainty of your values, as mind does).
Honestly, I feel much of the work of a holding societies together is sorting out ways to allow these two types to work together, and reciprocate value between their styles. It's a tension that exists in all systems at all levels of organizing matter (eg. brains navigated this with lateralization into hemispheres), and society isn't special.
We're both wrong and right, and just need to at least see that as true, and maybe not try to claim too much authority for our own camp. (Maybe ubiquitous social welfare IS claiming too much authority.)
Anyhow, thanks. I appreciate your perspective, and it humbles mine.
I think the other side of the coin is that we're moving away from people hiding incompetence through bravado, scapegoating, and what gets neglected when people engage in the game of pretend called "we're all grown ups here". The fact is that people are on a lot of different levels of emotional maturity and function. Even the same individual at difference points of their life and in different contexts. Age only loosely correlates with real maturity, real ownership of responsibility, etc. It's kind of silly when we can plan for all sorts of failsafes and redundancy in architecture and software but neglect to do so with humans, who are always error prone.
Also, it is useful to talk about systemic problems that are much larger than what any individual can fix just by being extra diligent.
I see your point though, that something being nobody's fault can be just as damaging as spending an egregious amount of time trying to assign blame (the traditional way of things). My opinion is that responsibility, and being able to take some flak for when that ownership goes awry, should be conditioned like exercise. Taking none is like never exercising, and it's very unhealthy. Throwing 1000 pounds of weight on someone suddenly because of a pathological need for the group to have a scapegoat doesn't make that person better, though. It just crushes them and it's a net loss for the group. That weight and stress should be shared. We need to cultivate the real maturity to take and give some blame constructively, and recognize all extenuating factors, so that people neither get infantilized and helpless nor simply squashed because of a systemic problem that the group just doesn't want to address.
CT/CRT promotes an external locus of control as the source of societal problems. In other words, its not the fault of the individual/human hardware its the fault of the patterns that society has entrenched aka systemic racism or the software of a culture.
Its a top down theory/solution to what critics would argue is a bottom up problem. Individuals must be responsible for what they say, how they regulate their emotional state, and how their experiences and cognitive distortions skew their thinking. CT/CRT, by my understanding, argues against this. Thus it seems reasonable to say it leads to a lack of accountability if you define accountability as a responsibility for ones actions and beliefs.
I’ve read a small bit on CT/CRT, intersectionality, and the modern culture of safetyism. Primarily from Haidt who has more peer reviewed sources on things than anyone could ever want.
I find CT/CRT to be compelling to a degree, but it brings along with it too much baggage in my opinion. You’re likely not going to find or be given a specific source of data that says CRT leads to lack of accountability (however you would measure that), its an assumption made by the previous poster. You don’t need one either to have a discussion, so don’t fall back on the lack of academic evidence as an argument in itself.
I don't know if there's peer-reviewed sources about that claim in particular, but this is a topic that's being addressed often in media. Here's a popular book on this topic; I haven't read it yet, but I'd like to: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1634312023
Unpopular opinion on HN, but asking for a peer-reviewed source during a casual forum discussion is kind of a lazy way to dismiss something. When you're chatting with your buddies over cocktails and they say something you disagree with, do you suddenly demand a peer-reviewed source and offer to drive them to the library so they can find the academic papers that back up their views?
I am actually 32 haha I do understand where you're coming from. However, our motivation around this was to have an emotional response to space. The idea of personalizing your space where you're spending time is an important one. We also want to be treated like people online and not boxes. So the whole idea of being on "mute" when you're listening to someone needs to be challenged.
This is probably not an answer to what you've asked. I just wanted to tell you about how motivations behind building this.
An experiment well worth doing, and probably a preferable option for people weary of listening politely to 'authorities' or 'guests' or 'lecturers' one-at-a-time... which can be extremely low-bandwidth.
Certainly at conventions with 'presentations' many people sit near each other to discuss what's being said (or talk past the parts not relevant to them) in real-time. Orchestras still have conductors (strictly interpreting fixed works) but I think most people would rather be in a band (for the creative interactivity) and rather listen to a band.
Oh yeah, I think what you've built can be great enabler for expression and creativity and product itself and definitely has the old school web feel to it. I think what inspired me to write above, was more of a marketing angle you are taking, not necessarily product itself.
You got the creativity and expression bit right. That's a big motivator. For the positioning, I do understand your point. We may need to explore this a bit more to really convey what we're trying to do better.
I'm slightly older than you, so we're both millenials, and I've noticed a lot of my friends sort of struggling with the fact that we're no longer the "young and cool" crowd. The Gen Y/Z TikTok crowd are the cool ones now, and speaking anecdotally the people I know in their late teens and early twenties are quite a bit more sheltered and childish than my friends and I were at that age. We were using fake IDs to get into bars and shows, and my younger cousins are literally spending Friday/Saturday nights inside on social media (pre-Covid).
>I'm slightly older than you, so we're both millenials, and I've noticed a lot of my friends sort of struggling with the fact that we're no longer the "young and cool" crowd. The Gen Y/Z TikTok crowd are the cool ones now
The funny thing about that, much like when we were that age, those platforms and things the young folks think are cool were made by people who are the age of millenials or older for the most part.
I dunno, when I was younger a lot of the music and stuff I thought was cool was being made by people who were around the same age I am now.
Not too sure what my point is really, your comment just made me think of this. People around that age start lamenting their lack of cool, but are responsible for many of the things people younger than them find cool...something like that I suppose.
> Now the sound of music comes in silver pills
> Engineered to suit you, building cheaper thrills
> The music of rebellion makes you wanna rage
> But it's made by millionaires who are nearly twice your age
Respectfully, I think the younger generations are “up to” the exact same stuff. I should write a post about college campus ID culture. It’s always fun to break out a pseudonym.
Anecdotally, tons of clubs have closed in since the 90's with no replacement where I lived (Toronto and North Netherlands). Everything at least in my circles suggests that drugs, drinking, partying is all happening less now compared to the previous generations.
I randomly landed and browsed through Courtney Loves Twitter today and she posts lots of pictures of partying in the early 90s with other celebs. It’s the antithesis of what is cool today. Just looks like a train wreck really.
Er, Courtney Love was widely perceived as a trainwreck in the 90s, so her Twitter being full of now-seen-as-trainwreck stuff from the 1990s probably isn’t a good measure of change from the 1990s to now.
But her scene and the train wrecking was seen as “cool” by kids. I don’t think that is the case anymore. Kids look up to Elon Musk and YouTubers want to do startups and content instead.
> But her scene and the train wrecking was seen as “cool” by kids
Not very broadly, even among “the kids” (who, then and now, are far from monolithic.) She was more seen as a trainwreck that was in cool circles, not as a cool trainwreck.
> Kids look up to Elon Musk
Yeah, kids looked up to successful business and tech figures in the 1990s, and there are trainwreck entertainment industry celebs today, too.
It's not the case that Musk is idolized by a similar segment of the youth as would have idolized Love in the 1990s.
Regarding the sheltering: I dunno. The next generation probably isn’t telling you the shit they’re getting into.
Besides that, I spent plenty of Friday evenings staying up until 4 AM playing The Sims (the original game). It’s not like high school kids really have a choice on what they’re doing a lot of times - they don’t have complete freedom of movement.
I think you're approaching it from the completely wrong way.
We are in the time of revolution for video calls and interactive spaces. In times of revolution quick adoption is key. Funny/viral things with no participation barrier are ways of increasing adoption.
It will allow the tech/product to evolve and soon also fit your usecase. Because most likely thats where the real money is.
Seems like the logical endpoint of the shift away from tie and button down formality to the more casual/fun (at least on the surface) vibe tech businesses introduced. I don't really go for all the unicorn/muffin/whatever type childish aspects, but friendly UI's are a welcome change from the sort of austere 'businessy' UIs.
This also doesn't just apply to work, many people my age (32) are super into cartoons and Disneyland, but the concept of going to Disneyland without a child in your 30s seems... weird to me. It is probably good that people feel comfortable to be sort of weird though versus the stoic version of adulthood in the past.
I feel that sentiment myself. The need for better online communication is a forced reality during COVID. Having to navigate such explicit communication setups like Zoom groups and break-out rooms is a challenge.
But I don't know why the marketing needs to be so "fun". I hated all the "fun" slack brought to my life... and slowed down good communication dramatically.
Our focus is to communicate that you can REALLY make the space feel like your own. It should be an emotional response. The imagery on the website may give the idea of fun because we're focusing on help crowds socialize but that's not our end goal.
Or just because going to work is more fun when it's.. fun? I spend 8 hours a day there, I want to show who I am and I prefer my coworkers doing the same.
Especially the last 9 months. Normally one would talk with coworkers in the office, over a coffee, before a meeting etc. Remote meetings I find are strictly business.
I totally agree with you on the fun part, but I think what we define as fun is pretty different. I also agree with you that talking and knowing people you work with is important.
Where we disagree is the point that I don't think that gifs are helping you to know who your coworkers are. And more importantly I think it is not helping anyone to better understand themselves, which is one of the values of having conversations with people in the first place - that's kinda what philosophy schools were for. Gifs seem to serve some sort of emotional regulation function, but I've never investigated more deeply into that.
Now, I'm not trying to make a point here that you should only have serious conversations all the time, and definitely see the humour value of well timed gif, but I've found out that in general the trend is to shallow out the discussions and keep them within very narrow window of discourse.
In terms of how to spend time percolating between hard work:
In the office, I can find something to do at my desk alone or I can chat up some coworkers over coffee and the like.
Remote, the options are endless and I can chat up my family and friends. I can do chores like dishes or laundry so they're not all waiting for me after work. I can go for a walk without being that guy who takes too many walks. Truly anything so long as the time allocation and availability to plug back in are appropriate.
For me, this is why I prefer remote meetings be strictly business, and changing that isn't particularly compelling. My coworkers are cool, but prioritizing them over the rest of my life makes no sense to me so long as the value I bring to the company remains just as strong.
It’s so dystopian. There is such a narrow window of what is acceptable behaviour in the workplace. I get along with and like my colleagues but my relationship with them will never be as genuine as it can be once I don’t work with them anymore. There is no upside and tons of downside to being yourself. It’s just not worth it.
Why do you have to make work fun, shouldn't you already be enjoying it if you are doing what you want to do? Are you not doing what you want to do? See, that's the kind of problem that creates the infantilisation.
Is it reasonable to expect that everyone in every WFH-friendly job is actually "doing what they want to do" all the time? In my opinion, no way. Even for someone doing their dream job, parts of their day-to-day are guaranteed to be eaten up by objectively not-fun tasks.
Also, the fact that someone enjoys their job doesn't mean the experience can't be improved.
* US has been suffering from its postwar boom period hangover for over 40 years now. The job market isn't like it was due to other emerging economies now having their boom periods. All those dreams and aspirations that millennials were promised (You can be whatever you want! Follow your passion and the work will follow) were shattered and turned out to be contemptible lies perpetuated by the secondary education system and the job market as a whole. As a result, a whole generation is saddled with debt, and are delaying milestones of life progression (buying a house, having kids), indefinitely for many.
* The rise of the Internet and the millennials being at its forefront has opened up massive new markets in the entertainment section, most notably Disney. They own most entertainment IPs, and know that millennials want to relive their childhoods so they sell it back to them. Comic book movies aren't just a fad like 80s actions movies were; they're here to stay. And Disney wants adults to keep being obsessed with what are essentially children's movies. All the social media companies want you on their product all the time using it and sharing everything you can (especially the juicy controversial stuff that is polarizing the country, oh boy do they love those articles).
It absolutely have to do with culture. "Manliness" is out of fashion (in the context of media communication). The current decade is all about being ironic, sassy and at the same time vacuous. Think of pop music at its peak.
At the core of the problem, We've probably lost a lot of good UI designers in position of decision from last generation. This reflects on what is considered the "correct" way to make software UI nowadays. Note that blink unicorns are not necessary for a interface to be childish. Oversized buttons, lack of power features and the constant need to "reinvent" is a frenzy that gets some folks mad too.
Particularly about the tool, I think this has some cool features that gets wanned by the backgrounds choice on the video pitch.
There's a term for the current 20-somethings who can't be seen as responsible adults yet, I don't remember what it was, but searching for it got me this long article, from 10 years ago! https://www.salon.com/2010/12/23/not_quite_adults_interview/
Maybe it's the still-living-at-your-parents-at-25 economy... Maybe it's also because the 20, 30-somethings have been raised by more and more helicopter parents and schools giving out participation medals, i.e. too coddled.
This article should be taken with a cosmic-scale grain of salt. Specifically, it's worth noting that the article discussions how complaints about "microaggressions" (typically from visible minorities) are a form of "oppression" and refers to "pathetic little snowflakes".
This comes across as some kind of conservative boomer complaining about "kids these days", with their avocado toast, who aren't willing to work as hard as their grandfathers were in a world that's vastly different from the one they grew up in.
The crux of the article with regards to Simon Pegg seems to be that movies have moved to "spectacle", but when did that happen? And who is going to see those movies? And why?
The world is going to shit; the 1% own most of the world, climate change is destroying our planet, and politicians are more concerned with their own success than the lives of their constituents. Is it any wonder that people these days need more escapism than their grandparents in the "golden age of America", where employees would work hard their whole lives and companies would take care of their employees, where you could work a typical job and still be able to afford a house and a comfortable lifestyle, and where you didn't have to feel bad about hurting someone's feelings by being overtly racist all the time, because you never ran into black people because they weren't allowed to use the same water fountains or bathrooms as you.
This article, in short, is garbage, and should be treated as such.
Same age as well. And that’s after strongly correcting for the stereotypical “they don’t make music like they used to” bias that one might accuse me of.
Professionalism is seen as patronizing - which is a vibe I can mostly get behind, but massively hinders direct, important communication or collaboration. I also see a lot of dishonest but well-intentioned platitudes being thrown around that hides actual feedback.
But I’m ranting! Literally sounding like an old person... should I feel guilty about age-ism??? That’s my young person perspective.
It’s good to not feel totally alone in these things. The kids behind us are wild, in my opinion.
Because we have to work to survive in the current system. If I didn’t have to work and could take risks (I.e. have fu money) I’d do roughly the same thing in a very different way.
What does that have to do with whether a video conferencing app is experimental though? All that says is that whoever made it has some leeway to take risks.
A lot of these products are failing to innovate in meaningful directions. Instead, they add silly features to justify your continued use of them and their development team salaries.
not the same person, but I think "better" in this context means "something that more people would prefer over the alternative due to having self-reported higher levels of enjoyment and lower levels of stress, which makes you want to use the tool more".
I wouldn't use it for work, and for that reason I like the idea of something being the opposite of work... where it doesn't have to be "professional" looking.
Infantile is a compliment. It suggests creativity and pushing the boundaries. Normally old curmudgeons think young things are empty and stupid because they don’t understand.
Infantile means you don’t have a developed prefrontal cortex and is definitely not a positive description. Creative and playful are not the same concept.
1. My point was to undermine the negative connotation associated with the word infantile. Since when did having an undeveloped prefrontal cortex become absolutely negative?
2. Creative and playful are highly correlated.
Same. What I want out of every communication product is the same: reliable, boring, and get out of my way. Humans innately know how to communicate with each other. They know how to make jokes, get info across, make hints, etc. we don’t need technology for the content of the communication
We need the transportation. Make it reliable, fast, and non interfering. That’s it. That’s why Zoom rocks. It just works
It doesn't even stop with everything being "fun and cool" -- take a look at how dumb social media interaction really is. An infinite stream of stuff that the user just presses "like" or "love" or whatever at, and immediately scrolls / swaps to the next diversion.
Maybe you’re right about some things becoming infantile, but a lot of the examples shown on this product page aren’t just about messing around with GIFs. You can build visual virtual spaces, like a virtual conference space or auditorium. The idea of being able to virtually walk around a virtual physical space and speak to people in an analogy to real life (by getting “closer” to them) seems like it’s an idea with at least some potential, and certainly a better idea than doing the real thing right now.
Also, you may be surprised to find out that you are allowed to have silly fun as an adult.
In my opinion, the “infantilization” of our workplaces is a huge positive, it’s really a side effect that’s demonstrating that employers are caring less about forcing us to wear fake clothes, fake personalities, and fake formality during our day to day work. Comedy is one of the best coping mechanisms to deal with stress and in that way it helps to be able to slap a GIF over a situation without feeling like the boss man is going to tell me to tone it down.
And sure, maybe there’s no need for this product, but what I can say is that if you build another Zoom/Meet/WebEx you aren’t really making anything new or interesting.
Recently I've seen startup, where you were earning XP points for quickly closing customer support tickets, and earning badges...
A college buddy worked at a place like that. But it wasn't a startup, it was a long-established company.
It was also 1996, and he learned that closing deals on copies of Windows 95 was worth twice as many points as other software, so he focused all his efforts on that so he could do half the work of his "teammates" in his cubicle farm.
> Or maybe it's because we actually treat majority of people like little children.
At 42, I've felt this is the cause for quite some time. You see it in things like the adult Disney woman[0]. Part of it is playing it safe so as not to offend the conservatives with a nipple, but market forces have been driving movies this direction as well[1].
Gutting education to dumb down the populace hasn't helped.
This is Capitalism. Everything has to be family friendly so it can reach as wide an audience as possible. When you're waiting for customer support, you have to hear a fun jingle so you don't get upset. People have to be talked down to like children so they know their place in the wealth hierarchy. It's an ideology, not in the sense of political beliefs, but rather false ideas that dominate society that we all subconsciously hold to maintain the social system we built on contradictory premises.
I don't think I've presented the full picture, but you asked where this trend is coming from, and to me this is the only common factor and starting point of investigation.
> This is Capitalism. Everything has to be family friendly so it can reach as wide an audience as possible
Ah yes, those socialists and their totally not family friendly media? Really?
> When you're waiting for customer support, you have to hear a fun jingle so you don't get upset.
It's so you know you haven't been disconnected.
> People have to be talked down to like children so they know their place in the wealth hierarchy.
Please don't talk down to people regardless of how wealthy you are. You will always have the best luck by being warm but polite, talking respectfully but honestly.
> It's an ideology, not in the sense of political beliefs, but rather false ideas that ...
Capitalism appears to be pretty real, and it appears to be pretty political. I would not say it "dominates" society since plenty of people seem to be against it in name alone.
"Admit Nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-Accusations"
Why am I not surprised to see this kind of instinctive reaction. I don't want to debate your points because that is way out of scope for this thread and I don't want to be chased out.
Everything is becoming increasingly infantile. Everything has to be fun and cool. I'm wondering where is this trend coming from. Is this some sort of a social response to how terrible and bleak reality seems to be? Or maybe it's because we actually treat majority of people like little children. If one looks how the current enterprises work, the person within them have very limited decision making power and access to information. In a way that reminds me of a quote from interview with Erich Fromm[1]: "It is true that one has to think first and then to act -but it's also true that if one has no possibility of acting, one's thinking kind of becomes empty and stupid.".
Any other ideas? Or maybe it's actually not happening at all, and it's only me who's not getting it.
[1]: https://hrc.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15878coll...
PS: OP, I don't mean that as criticism of your product, I think it correctly identifies and addresses the need. It's the why is it even a need part I'm curious about.