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Meals based on vegetable protein sources (beans and peas) are more satiating (2016) (nih.gov)
102 points by doener 9 months ago | hide | past | favorite | 94 comments



The high protein vegetable meal has 4 times the fibre as the high protein meat meal.

The next recommended article is

Protein from Meat or Vegetable Sources in Meals Matched for Fiber Content has Similar Effects on Subjective Appetite Sensations and Energy Intake-A Randomized Acute Cross-Over Meal Test Study

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29337861/


This matches my own observations where swapping a pure 'bran' cereal for any other breakfast meal allows me to feel fuller while eating less.

Also, subbing TVP for mince is also a way of increasing fibre and protein at the same time. After hydration TVP is almost double protein by weight compared to store-bought mince (at least where I shop), and it also has a good dose of fibre content, and no fat. Once again, I went 50/50 on this and I could eat less and feel fuller, and I argue it tasted better because the dish wasn't as oily.


For anyone else wondering what TVP is, it's textured vegetable protein (soy). It turns out I eat it all the time in microwave burritos, because it saves the manufacturer money to mix it with the ground beef.


Works well for tacos too. I shy away from TVP since it’s relatively highly processed. Beans work, especially lentils for a ground beef replacement - beluga, sprouted green, or any of the varieties which don’t quickly loosen up like red.


I always feel like we’re a vampire society that figures out how to make human-like blood without having to take it from humans.

Will need to look into these textured vegetable protein for the sake of the animals.


You don't generally get TVP by itself. It's very bland and has almost no fat, so it doesn't taste like much.

You generally buy it as one ingredient in a fake-meat product. You can find it at some "natural foods" stores and online, but it's much cheaper to manufacturers as a bulk product than at a consumer level. They use it to make some pretty effective fake meats, though the high-profile ones (like Impossible and Beyond) use related-but-different products.


what is funny is that there is no cheap TVP for sale in the stores...you can get the substitute meat patties (mostly soy) etc for sale in many grocery stores, but it is not cheap at all...costs considerably more than the cheapest hamburger, pork or chicken...if the food manufacturers can save money by using TVP mixed in with meat, then why is there no cheap TVP for sale in the stores ?


There's is actually relatively inexpensive flavored textured vegetable protein available in the stores though; soy chorizo (or soyrizo) is about the same price as meat, even though it probably has much lower sales.


It's all about volume. I've noticed the beyond and impossible burgers are substantially more expensive than meat despite supposedly requiring much less resources to produce. Not enough competition or volume.



And they can be pretty good if you make them right!


My local grocer has started selling packets for 15 AUD per kg. Cursory google shows I can have 5kg delivered for 30 AUD, about a third of the price.


If only TVP were easy to buy worldwide. I suspect you're in the US where I've seen it offered cheaply in bulk. Elsewhere it seems unobtanium.


Try a grocery that carries Taiwanese (most asian grocers) or Mexican food. These places usually have it for sale cheap.


You can find it in health food shops or buy in bulk online. It keeps for ages, so it doesn't hurt to have extra. I'm currently in Australia. My local grocer has started selling it, though it's pricier than from other sources.


I combine cereals..Fiber One with something else. It’s a good way to get the benefit and still enjoy other cereals (still mostly healthy).


What is TVP?


Textured Vegetable Protein, a soy-based product.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textured_vegetable_protein


Comments like this is why I visit HN in the first place. Thanks!


Too much fibre isn't healthy.


I don’t get the obsession with fiber. Cramming as much fiber as you can into every meal makes eating a slog and makes it less likely you’ll be able to pack in all your daily macronutrients, because you’ll feel too full to eat.


I think you may be missing a few things. Fiber is important to avoid painful stool compaction. Soluble fiber also slows carb absorbtion and lowers the glycemic index of a meal which is generally a good thing.

As to your macronutrient concern, unless you are trying to eat 4000+ calories which is about when it becomes a chore to eat (I once had a job where I lost weight eating less than that), high fiber food isn’t going to make it hard to get your macro nutrients with most modern diets. And foods high in fiber tend to have more micronutrients. For instance the germ in whole grain is literally the nutrients needed to kickstart a seed into a plant.


Thank you for the explanation. Don’t know why my original posted warranted such vicious downvoting for what seemed like a legitimate observation.


Feeling too full to eat while not maxing out on your calories is a desirable goal for many people.


This is interesting and clashes with my personal experience. I eat two vegetarian meals a day which usually include beans, eggs, or oats. In my experience meat is considerably more satiating than meals with beans or eggs but less satiating than the meals with oats.


They specified a high-protein vegetarian meal. So unless the meal is purely made from nuts, it would have to consist of processed HP ingredients like TVP.

A sibling post mentioned another study which suggests that it's actually the fibre content that determines satiety, which maybe matches your observation about oats?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25613156


Yeah, this clashes with my experience too.

I experimented with vegetarian meals a few months back and found I could eat literally 1kg+ of cooked lentils/beans/etc and still feel hungry. <500g of chicken breast (plus vegetables), on the other hand, would see me through.


> Yeah, this clashes with my experience too.

Ultimately, as with all biological systems, its hard to make absolute assertions of the most optimal diet (the sample size in this trial is n=43 which is pretty small when you consider the variation in peoples gut biomes due to genetics and lifestyle) be it full carnivore to the strictest form of veganism, there will always be people who can perform on these diets. But most people fall within the averages, and thus personal experimentation is required to adjust and refine for one's own use.

I worked at a highly acclaimed Vegan and Vegetarian farm to table, and for the life of me I couldn't even get my body to adjust to eating seitan or tempeh as a main source of protein. I'd eat tons of salads with qunioa and legumes and still feel fatigued all day and I drank tons of kombucha to try and make the most use of the additional fiber. Ultimately I gave up after 2 weeks and just ended up bringing in my own grass fed beef and cooking it in tallow or goose fat after service with all the veg sauted in the pan as sides and felt way better. I had a horrible mental fog and dull headache the entire time, my body felt sluggish and I felt like I was not sleeping well for those 2 weeks and I don't think I'd cope with that for very long as I have a hard time keeping my weight up as it is.

After spending the better part of decade on matters related to diet and longer if I include self experimentation, I've come to realize its far more Art than it is Science and that one shoe does not and cannot fit all.

Obviously we should reduce our meat consumption in the West, and opt for smaller, organic and grass fed cuts of better quality meat cooked in good animal fats in our diet but phasing it out entirely seems like an unobtainable panacea to me at best, and a horrible existence for most like myself.

But Life is too short to suffer through more than one bad meal a month, and I work to damn hard to not enjoy myself for the 1 meal I eat a day now. Which is often a 4:1 ratio of Veg/Carb to meat.

Context: I grew up eating tofu as a kid, so I was no stranger to eating soy based protein but it was usually as a side dish or a garnish in a soup rather than meal itself.


Did you actually cook those animal products at the vegan/veg restaurant? If so, that was very rude of you.


> Did you actually cook those animal products at the vegan/veg restaurant? If so, that was very rude of you.

Yes, but two points: we shared a kitchen layout with our sister catering kitchen right next to us. So I used their equipment when I cooked, also we had a cleaning company come in daily to do a deep clean of the equipment.

I get the sentiment, but honestly you don't want to know how much cross-contaminated food you eat when you go to a restaurant. Its just the nature of the beast, especially when you share walk-ins and do prep with the same equipment etc...


Mine too, with caveats. A steak + veggies and I'm satiated and alert for hours. Similar calorie content with beans or other vegetable sources and I'm hungrier sooner and often feel sluggish/de-energised. I also don't particularly enjoy the increased mass and volume of food I need to eat if I exclude meat from my diet.

Still, I think there's an element of balance here. If I eat beef too many days on the trot I don't end up feeling so great either. The key thing is to keep it mixed up with a good variety of veggies, meat, and carbs[0].

[0] I will say that overly processed carbs like pasta, pizza base, etc., and even things like rice tend to leave me hungry, sluggish and irritable if I have too much of them. Potatoes seem to cause fewer issues.


When I became vegetarian I was 'hungry'.l in the way you describe for about 1-2 weeks, after that the issue disappeared and a plate of beans is very satisfying and keeps my stomach happy for a long period.

I would guess this is a lot about habituation/expectations and less about whether the food is meat/milk product/soy/grains. Therefore also some caution about the study: eating an unfamiliar food a few times might leave a very different effect than something the body is used to.


What is long period? Because plate of beans keep me full longer then non-beans vegetarian food. But meat based plate keeps me full even longer.

I don't think beans are unfamiliar for most people. We do eat them regularly. But, they don't make us as full as meat.


that matches my experience as well. whenever i've actively changed my diet (to small meals or low-carb, not necessarily vegetarian), it takes ~10 days for the body to re-habituate and settle on the new norm.


You eat a kilo worth of food in a single meal ?

Do you dig trenches for a living or what ?


That's ~1300 calories - seems reasonable for a meal.


That’s a fairly heavy lunch.


> In my experience meat is considerably more satiating than meals with beans or eggs but less satiating than the meals with oats.

Try adding some fat, e.g., perhaps use whole (3%) milk with your oats if you're using water. Or soak them in not-low-fat Greek yogurt (for protein) overnight if you don't mind a cold breakfast.

"Fats and Satiety":

* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK53550/

"Effect of fat saturation on satiety, hormone release, and food intake"

* https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/4/1019/4596700


Satiation is a time-bound variable so I imagine it varies


This is an interesting subject. I wish I knew and understood more, so I can eat less meat and eat more healthily.

My problem is that I’m Chinese and I live in Hong Kong. I’ve lived many years in Montréal before but I never picked up any “Western” culinary knowledge. Meanwhile, I get the impression that a lot of these nutritional studies seem to be based on Western diet, and there are ingredients that we Chinese are not familiar with (e.g. I can’t name at least half of the beans and vegetables that go into a salad at Passion by Gérard Dubois), let alone know where to buy without getting ripped off. Things that one would find completely ordinary and affordable in US/Canada can be ridiculously expensive and/or hard to find in Hong Kong.

If anybody has recommendations (books, YouTube channels, links, etc.) for someone living in East Asia to replicate similarly satiating, nutritious, and appealing meals, that would be awesome


It isn't exactly East Asian, but have you tried Indian food? A lot of it is plant-based since many Indians are vegetarian, and being an Asian cuisine, many of the ingredients used are also similar/the same to those found in other Asian cuisines. This YouTube channel might be of some use - https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCDbZvuDA_tZ6XP5wKKFuemQ. If you're dead set on only cooking up East Asian style food though, maybe try this channel instead - https://m.youtube.com/user/marystestkitchen.


My brother who is east asian and is vegetarian follows anything that goes along with buddhist eating styles (except he also declines fish).


Decreasing the amount of meat you eat is really not that hard, and it’s SO easy to replace it with some nice chunky blanched vegetables and a more beans and some more plant based fats.

This whole pandemic emphasised healthy eating in our family, and not only are we eating more healthy food, but household is happier, more balanced and there’s just a way better spirit in the house now.

And cutting back on meat was the first step to realising that it’s not really hard to do.


Tempeh is a great source of protein and easy enough for many people to make at home. You can add it as a source of protein to a wide range of dishes with surprising results. It's even good when cubed and added to spaghetti marinara as a meatball substitute.


Warning to all; if this is your first time eating something soy based, I’d go for tofu or TVP before tempeh.

Tempeh is fermented so it can be a bit strong, where tofu and TVP are still high in protein but take on other flavours more easily.


That's like, your opinion-- xmaaaayyy. :) Tempeh isn't that bold a move. It depends on how it's made, really. Maybe the stuff you've had is strong. We quality control here by making it from scratch.


Slice it kind of thin, marinate in soy sauce, maple syrup and a dash of smoked paprika for a couple of hours (at least). Bake it for 20 minutes in the oven. Tasty.


Tofu slices soaked in a few spoons of soy sauce and a few drops of liquid smoke, then fried in olive oil until crunchy. Delicious bacon that my non-veggie family all prefer over real bacon.


I think it's related to the fermentation going on in your stomach. I'm not sure if it's the best way to become satiated.

I personally find saturated fats to be much more satiating, I can go without food for a full day without feeling hungry if I eat enough.


I also agree with fats being the most satiating for me. For a second, I missed the part where they controlled for it, but it's there:

> The meals (all 3.5 MJ, 28 energy-% (E%) fat)...


Then add some high fat foods to the veggie meals. Nuts, avocado, etc are all super nutritious and fatty.


Fermentation happens in the gut where all the bacteria is, right? Does fullness in the gut translate to feeling full?


I should have said gut--I've been calling my gut my stomach for too long and have had difficulty stopping that habit.

However, I don't think we really know where satiety comes from yet, that's why we have all of this research on the topic still. There are a few different theories, but I wouldn't call them proven.

It may not be a sensation related to some measure of the volume of matter in your gut. I think it's also related to gut microfauna such as lactobacilla, and appetite is definitely related to the brain as well through the gut, so it probably gets pretty complicated and possibly is very individualized. I'm no expert, but I do read a lot about these topics.


Vegan protein powder tastes pretty great. I use a Costco brand. You can add it to almost any meal. If you are lifting weights, its almost impossible to get enough vegan sources of protein to meet the 1g / 1 lb of body weight that is usually recommended.

Actually, if anyone knows how to put together 150g+ protein /day on a vegan diet in under 2100 calories I would be interested. I would switch over at least a few of my days to vegan.


> 1g / 1 lb

Why would you mix units like this?!


Because the recommended amount of grams of protein you need per day for body building is usually around 1g of protein for every 1 pound of bodyweight


This is the standard way this is discussed. Most people aim for 1 gram of protein per 1 lb of body weight.


1. Because it lines up well with the portion size

2. It’s not like you’re using the same scale to weigh yourself and the protein powder


Yeah but I mean why mix imperial and metric units in the same situation? Seems mind-bending and error-prone.


Because mixing units but keeping coefficients 1:1 means there's no math, as long as you measure your bodyweight in pounds and have a way of measuring your protein in grams (which food packaging does, even in the U.S.).

Mixing coefficients instead of units means you need to express it as 2.2g/kg which means having to do a calculation, or two calculations if you need to convert your bodyweight from pounds to kilograms.


Can you explain what you think is confusing about 1g per 1lb?

I suspect you're cargo culting "never mix units!" without realizing that the advice is talking about denominating the same thing in different units (thus having to do conversion).

I'd be curious to see your explanation of the mind bending and error prone nature of "ok, I weigh 200lbs and now I will ensure I get 200g of protein today" and the exact scenario where you think it would pose a problem. Frankly I think you'd realize it doesn't exist.


Because if you're in a country that measures in metric you have to convert one side from imperial, and if you're in a country that measures in imperial you have to convert one side from metric.


It’s a 1:1 ratio with those units. Hard to imagine anything less mind-bending/error-prone. Set your body scale to pounds and your food scale to grams. Done.


Because (at least in the US) we weigh ourselves in pounds and weigh protein by the gram. That’s kinda of the long and the short of it lol.


Somebody made a humorous flowchart about using imperial vs metric: https://preview.redd.it/k1brffgbngk31.png?width=681&format=p...

There a lot of situations I can imagine from that flowchart where you mix systes in a single sentence.


I'm from Canada we mix both units all the time, or maybe its just me. But I think this has to do with most foods being labeled with grams, its easier to add in decimal. But most people weigh themselves in lbs.


It’s just a common heuristic. It’s not like it’s used for much other than a staring point for how much protein to consume.


Most people perform the calculation on lean mass. Overweight people don’t need 300g of protein, for example.


Food macronutrients are labeled in grams, scales are in pounds. So this is the most natural way to purvey the information without needing conversions

[In the US]


Naughty, you've combined metric and imperial ;-)

https://youtu.be/e1hpT8MaqdM


Because Americans are slowly transitioning to metric, but still use pounds on scales.


Why do we measure pascal's?

Because it's a standard. It's not something they made up.



More bloat from carb + water retention as well. Comfort of pants varied between low/high carb days. Sometimes feeling full is just feeling fat.


Can anyone provide a scihub link, I'd really like to read this as a friend and I had a through discussion about this very topic.

Thanks!




This seems entirely expected and in line with previous research and understanding of nutrition because the animal protein meals had lower fiber. A less sensationalist way to phrase this would be "high fiber meals are more satiating when controlling for macronutrient content."


This is my experience too, though I eat a lot of starch in the form of potatoes and rice as well.


Anecdotally, my experience is that this is true however I get hungry earlier. So the net result is null.


I like my beans with meat.


why not both? beans + meat


Being satiated <> being properly nourished.


The majority of your comments on HN are downvoted because they are all one-liner negative quips.

Is there a reason you take your anger out on HN? Have you considered the zen of a plant-based diet?


Not trying to be negative, just trying to encourage critical dialogue. If you’re happy eating a plant based diet, I’m 100% supportive of your decision to live that way.


The issue is that a one-line quip is generally not a driver of good dialogue.


And you get just as much if not more nutrients from plant based meals?


Plant based diets are well known to be deficient in numerous essential nutrients.


The average US diet is deficient in numerous essential nutrients. You can eat healthy on a plant based diet or omni diet, but just adding or removing animal products is still not going to make an unhealthy diet healthy.


Mostly amino acids. There are simple rules to follow to ensure you get complete nutrition and amino acid profiles. Otherwise what nutrients are you really missing?


Just things like Choline, but feel free to starve your brain (literally and figuratively) if you really want to: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/08/190829184143.h...


That link doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not vegan/vegetarian diets are missing choline. It's that the UK nutritional chart doesn't track choline at all. It has nothing to do with diet. I was super confused at how this paper had anything to do with the conversation except to say choline exists and is important. Afterwards I googled and choline isn't exclusive to meat sources so I'm still confused what vegetarian/vegan diets and choline deficiency have to do with each other- very common vegan/vegetarian foods are high in choline like brocoli, peas, chickpeas, various legumes, etc.

Could you cite studies that correlate vegetarian/vegan diets with deficiencies in nutrition?


From the linked article:

“The primary sources of dietary choline are found in beef, eggs, dairy products, fish, and chicken, with much lower levels found in nuts, beans, and cruciferous vegetables, such as broccoli.

In 1998, recognising the importance of choline, the US Institute of Medicine recommended minimum daily intakes. These range from 425 mg/day for women to 550 mg/day for men, and 450 mg/day and 550 mg/day for pregnant and breastfeeding women, respectively, because of the critical role the nutrient has in fetal development.

In 2016, the European Food Safety Authority published similar daily requirements.

...

‘This is....concerning given that current trends appear to be towards meat reduction and plant-based diets," says Dr Derbyshire.’”

Is something unclear about this?


Sorry, most of the article appeared to be about that UK isn't releasing daily choline requirements so I was a little confused. It also doesn't say whether or not there's actual evidence that choline deficiency due to a vegetarian diet exists, much less is linked to something?




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