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BTW Hetzner is a top notch EU cloud with an excellent proposal to finally learn Linux and deploy whatever you want on their industrial grade networking and storage. Instead of feeding an exploding complexities and costs of AWS, Google and Alibaba. I hope they will come to other continents soon.

I recently tried out Hetzner Cloud, after using their dedicated servers for years, and have come away positively surprised.

It works well, and the pricing is very appealing. But it's not even remotely in the same league as AWS/GC/Azure.

All you get is DNS, private networks, load balancers VMs and storage volumes. That's it.

Sure, you can self-host Kubernetes, and they even have a CSI driver for mounting volumes and an official Terraform provider. Which is great.

But you miss out on the incredibly rich service offerings you get from the others.

It's a great start though, and I hope they keep expanding their offerings.

Well, essentually Herzer is missing PAAS offerings that most modern devs can't live without, especially managed databases.

Is "modern devs" the modern "No true Scotsman"? Plenty of developers and organizations get by without managed databases. Although in "7-day sprints on loop forever" world of startups, any effort to require less knowledge to run the stack is probably welcome, hence it seems "most devs can't live without" for a lot of things, like managed databases, containerization and yadda yadda.

Having a managed database is the sweet spot for productivity/efficiency between maintaining a full time database administrator and having engineers learn how to do it themselves.

How can a serious company using a relational database get by without paying for database expertise in some way or another?

Yes, of course once the company reaches a certain scale you need specialized roles and/or software that you use, that makes sense.

But is "companies of scale" what "modern devs" refer to? What is a "serious" company?

There is a lots of parameters that goes into the choice of self-hosted DB / managed DB, not just if the devs are "modern", or the company is "serious".

> especially managed databases.

There are other companies, though, that have great cloud-managed DB offerings. Herzer (I'm not previously familiar with it so don't know if they already do this) would do better to just partner with one of these companies in a "marketplace" like arrangement.

I was extremely close to switching to Aiven-managed postgres until GCP finally supported point-in-time-recovery on postgres.

> It works well, and the pricing is very appealing. But it's not even remotely in the same league as AWS/GC/Azure.

IMHO Hetzner is far above AWS/GC/Azure in price and simplicity.

The only drawback I see in Hetzner is that they don't have a lot of data centers with a relevant geographic dispersion, but that's only relevant for a Unicorn-level scale, or applications that require TP99.99 latency in the lower-end of the double-digit scale uniformly throughout the globe.

You skipped over without mentioning the gist of the comment you replied too, which was the large amount of additional services that those other companies offer, but Hetzner does not.

One person's rich services are another's vendor lock-in.

If you're referring to AWS's "serverless" offering, they are mostly managed instances of FLOSS offerings with the exception of dynamodb, and arguably are far from justifying the colossal premium they charge for using them. I mean, does anyone claim with a straight face that without AWS it's practically impossible to get a database or a message broker up and running?

It’s a completely different thing to „get it up and running” and to fully operate and monitor 24/7 a highly available environment using full time SREs with strict contracted SLAs.

Your comment is rather disingenuois and naive. If you have any experience whatsoever with AWS you wouldbe fully aware that AWS quite vocally advertises that reliability is the responsibility of the customer,not theirs. Theygo even further by stating in their "well-architected framework" that it's on you to handle redundancy with multiple deployments across separate availability zones. So your baseless assertions fly in the face of reason once you actually lay attention to the operational side, because as it's easy to see and understand it makes absolutely no difference if you parrot keywords all day because in the end reliability is on you, and if it's up to you anyway then that is not an argument in favour of vendor lock-in.

Yeah, they're really barebones. Do everything yourself, which is nice tbh. Last time I used them though, they had some draconian restrictions on mail lists. A few complaints and your server gets shut down. I was just sending newsletters to subscribers.

„Cloud“ is increasingly more about services than just bare compute. I feel like Hetzner targets the cloud market from yesteryear. Maybe that niche is big enough to sustain the company - certainly while many are still making the intermediate transition from on-prem hardware to managed offerings. In the long run, I‘m sceptical.

Happy user of Hetzner's dedicated servers. Very nice platform and lots of bang for the buck, paying ~$40/month for Intel Core i7-980, 2x HDD SATA 2,0 TB, 1x SSD SATA 250 GB, 3x RAM 8192 MB DDR3 and unlimited traffic. Hard to beat really.

Only gripe is that they only have servers in Europe, wish they had at least North/South American + Asian centers too.

You d pay even less for their 'serverbidding' servers

This particular one was indeed from server-bidding, but needed it within 24h so my selection was less than if you have lets say a week available for bidding/winning.

I highly recommend AGAINST Hetzner.

Tried to use it earlier this year. Opened an account to host a new project.

Went to login the next week to create the instances and launch the projects. Couldn't login because the Hetzner console was broken for 2 days. Yes you heard right, everything was broken and unusable for 2 days. Imagine the AWS console down for 2 days for comparison, that doesn't happen.

Few days later when the service was restored. I found out the account was banned. It seems they ban new accounts automatically because they're afraid of bitcoin miners or something. It's not uncommon among cloud providers to ask for an ID or something to verify the account, only problem, Hetzner banned the account but didn't ask for anything.

Couldn't raise a ticket to have the account unlocked because the only way to raise a ticket is to open the account and raise a ticket, that's not possible with the account locked.

Tried to contact support through the provided support email on their site. They never replied. Tried to contact again. They never replied.

At that point the project launch was 2 weeks late. Had to have horrific meetings to explain why everything was late with my reputation on the line, all the fault of Hetzner. Will never use again.

They have also answered me on twitter and email. All within several hours or less. But anyway, even if such terrible situation really happened, two weeks? I would have changed provider the next day. Not counting the fact I duplicate critical production deployments and replication on two providers always.

I've used many cloud providers over the decade. It's not uncommon to lose a week to fully open an account, going through some checks and verification with support. I was expecting Hetzner to resolve the issue a couple days after contacting them, just like AWS always responds after exactly 2 days when I send them a request.

Indeed, some checks on some providers are strange towards some people. E.g. I can't open an account on Linode no matter what, and zero feedback.

Hetzner user here, it's still very barebone compared to US cloud providers (but amazing pricing). No IAM, no EKS, it's mainly a VPS provider just like OVH.

Scaleway looked closer to an AWS competitor but I haven't used it enough to know how good it is.

I run a couple of things on Scaleway. It works very well and looks very similar to Digital Ocean. Great UX for the console application and chap prices. But like Hetzner only a basic service.

Maybe we could create EU cloud catalog website for people to find all the providers that actually already exist (in Sweden the company Glesys is a similar provider).

> Scaleway looked closer to an AWS competitor but I haven't used it enough to know how good it is.

I've tried out Scaleway a while ago , and unfortunately they double-charged my CC just because. I'm not sure how widespread is that behavior, but to me it was enough to remain a OVH/Hetzner client.

Hetzner doesn't compete with AWS, Azure or Google Cloud.

They compete primarily with companies like DigitalOcean, Linode, Vultr, OVH, Scaleway and traditional co-location and dedicated hosts.

Look at the software offerings from Hetzner, they're barely existent. AWS and Hetzner are very clearly not in the same business. AWS makes its money primarily off of software services, Hetzner makes money primarily off of primitive (basic) hosting. The AWS software side of the business has enormous margins compared to the primitive hosting side. You'll find that Hetzner barely has any margin, as with all the others in their segment. Meanwhile AWS is a half a trillion dollar global juggernaut, funded by its software margins.

AWS is a corporate parasite - this is their real main offering, which feeds unnecessary or already unavoidable existing complexities. Being a long time AWS user myself (like in half of my projects), first thing I do with any new client, is try hard to persuade not to use AWS.

Whats the moat of their software? These things are easy to duplicate (judging by the number of competitors they already have). Also keep in mind that cloud is being fed by a massive tech bubble and free money that leads to overspending. If every big tech co (amazon, ms, google, ibm etc) becomes a cloud provider offering the same services, how do they plan to maintain high premiums?

> Hetzner doesn't compete with AWS, Azure or Google Cloud.

This assertion makes no sense at all. I mean, if you're in the business of getting an online business up and running, it seems to me that both do provide the infrastructure that allows you to achieve your goals.

Arguably, AWS and GCP have more data centers spread throughout the world, but beyond unicorn-scale companies you'd be hard pressed to find any business that does need that sort of infrastructure. Yet, when you're at that scale you're far better off running your own infrastructure, both in terms of cost but also reliability.

They also likely have 90% of income from 10% of clients, like any other sufficiently large business, while all others are just a cannon fodder in IT unicorn media echo chamber.

We use Hetzner at work and it's really competative for getting cheap VMS.

Now if only they would start offering managed K8s and enable us to switch from $US-BASED provider.

LIDL (the supermarket) is going there too:


Scaleway and OVH are also great if you have clients or audience in the EU. Hetzner is just a reseller of others' infra but it's also nice. Kind of annoying how they ask for your ID and issue randomly generated login names, but the platform is good.

That's BS, they own every single Data-center, never had to send an ID and my login name is the same since beginning.

I think you don't talk about hetzner.


I signed up for their storage offer (that you manage via their Konsole tool), and the first thing they needed to let me use my account was a scan of my ID. They even required a photo of me holding it.

Good couple of years ago when I decided to give Hetzner a shot, they sent me... a papper contract by post, and then... asked to sign a copy and send back. That was the last time I've ever dealt with them.

> Hetzner is just a reseller of others' infra

Could you elaborate on this? Whose infra are they selling? Could I get it directly from them?

They have their own data centers don't they?

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