>14 day cooling off period
>In the EU you have the right to return purchases made online or through other types of distance selling, such as by phone, mail order or from a door-to-door salesperson, within 14 days for a full refund. You can do so for any reason – even if you simply changed your mind.
like abusing returns
"A person may not advertise for sale, sell, use, install, or have installed, a device that makes an odometer of a motor vehicle register a mileage different from the mileage the vehicle was driven, as registered by the odometer within the designed tolerance of the manufacturer of the odometer"
>Please note that this list is not exhaustive
That is the case for example with wine supplied a long time after the conclusion of a contract of a speculative nature where the value is dependent on fluctuations in the market (‘vin en primeur’).
The right of withdrawal should neither apply to goods made to the consumer’s specifications or which are clearly personalised such as tailor-made curtains, nor to the supply of fuel, for example, which is a good, by nature inseparably mixed with other items after delivery.
The granting of a right of withdrawal to the consumer could also be inappropriate in the case of certain services where the conclusion of the contract implies the setting aside of capacity which, if a right of withdrawal were exercised, the trader may find difficult to fill. This would for example be the case where reservations are made at hotels or concerning holiday cottages or cultural or sporting events.
Regarding how much you can test out an item, for example underwear or in ear headphones can't be sent back.
Some consumers exercise their right of withdrawal after having used the goods to an extent more than necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and the functioning of the goods. In this case the consumer should not lose the right to withdraw but should be liable for any diminished value of the goods.
In order to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods, the consumer should only handle and inspect them in the same manner as he would be allowed to do in a shop.
For example, the consumer should only try on a garment and should not be allowed to wear it. Consequently, the consumer should handle and inspect the goods with due care during the withdrawal period.
The obligations of the consumer in the event of withdrawal should not discourage the consumer from exercising his right of withdrawal.
Some will give an option to have it processed immediately, but only if you agree to a waiver clearing your 14 days cooling off window.
Also... pointless? As the 14 days start from the day you receive the goods, not the day where you pass the order.
And we both know something sounding against the spirit of the law won’t stop many companies to do it, as long a s they have technicality to hang on to avoid straight losing in court.
Tesla has exhausted the supply of uncritical fanboys, and is past being the only good electric car manufacturer. Now they have to compete with BMW and Mercedes, who also sell good electric cars. The $50K-$100K "luxury" segment is overcrowded, and those companies are better at fit and finish.
The already in production VW ID.4 is a direct competitor to the new Model Y, the ID.3 to the Model 3.
Performance and range favor Tesla.
Build quality favors VW.
The Model 3 and ID.3 are a full size class apart and have wildly different driving character. In BMW parlance it's M340i vs 120i. In Mercedes parlance it's C43 vs A200.
It is too early to assess the relative build quality of the ID.3, though obviously VW do have strong form here and Tesla have weak form. But from a construction standpoint it's worth noting that the ID.3 is cheaply made, well below the standard of even the VW Golf. Despite the price tag, it's an economy car through and through.
To be clear, I'm not criticising the ID.3, my next car is probably going to look more like the ID.3 than the Model 3. But nonetheless there's a market that's excited by the Tesla's blistering performance and driving dynamics, while there's another market which is more excited by the ID.3's practical and conservative construction.
2019 EV sales Europe
1. Tesla Model 3 - 95.168
2. Renault Zoe - 45.129
3. Nissan Leaf - 31.792
4. Hyundai Kona EV - 21.790
5. Audi e-tron - 18.382
Another chart as a data point...
European sales for 2020: https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2020/09/europe-august-2020.htm...
And let's look at some individual countries.
VW, Peugeot, Renault, Nissan and even Hyundai all have European plants.
This has been an ongoing cycle since they started selling in Europe. That is why I asked for annual charts. Maybe even quarterly charts would be more accurate.
I suggest you carefully re-read what I linked to.
Let's revisit then. Maybe when Giga Berlin goes online? That'll make it an Apples to Apples comparison. So do all of the Monthly, Quarterly comparisons that you want. ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡° ).
What an odd thing to say. The objective data does not agree with you however. Pulling up EV sales in the last 5 years would also say otherwise. BMW/ MBenz are not even in the top 5 in terms of sales. Renault (Zoe) BYD, BAIC, and SAIC are closer in terms of numbers:
YTD YoY Vehicle Delivery Growth: https://youtu.be/K9gk8TMXKQk?t=65
Quarterly Vehicle Deliveries:
U.S. Electric Vehicles Sales by Model (2012-2019)
"Tesla was ranked as the best-selling electric vehicle manufacturer worldwide after selling between 367,000 and 368,000 units in 2019. Tesla's sales volume translates into a market share of just under 18 percent. Chinese manufacturers BYD, BAIC, and SAIC were among the runners-up."
People like you have been saying that since 2008-2010 that "competition is coming" https://www.wired.com/2009/10/audi-etron/
Yet here we are in 2020 and the incumbents still don't offer (production wise) an efficient EV that can best the range of the Model S from 2012.
"Most experienced automakers race to put a car together in three years," said Angus MacKenzie, editor of Motor Trend magazine. "I can't see Tesla making more than a handful of these -- if any -- in 2012.
That's not good news, considering Tesla has competition coming to the stage quickly. Nissan will sell the electric Leaf and General Motors is ready to bring the hybrid-electric Chevrolet Volt to market next year -- a year ahead of the Model S."
"Tesla Motors may have significant competition in the high-end electric vehicle space soon, if Fisker Automotive continues on its current path. "
Uh, in Europe the E-tron is selling very well, arguably much better than what those critics predicted, and is one of the reasons why the sales of Model S and X are essentially disappearing in countries like Norway https://i.redd.it/amrtc9yhl9851.png
As for the range, we all know that EPA sucks and the EPA official ranges for Tesla are fake as fuck https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUsFLHBXQAAmENE?format=jpg&name=...
Real world testing shows that all major car manufacturers are just as competitive when it comes to battery efficiency as Tesla (it's not like Tesla's batteries are essentially different from the competition, after all)
You conveniently left out the Model 3. It also took Audi almost a decade to finally put it to market. Moreover, the chart from Reddit that you posted is from @fly4dat from Twitter. A known EU Tesla short seller. If you've been following anything Tesla related.
Ever noticed why he never post YTD or EOY numbers? There's a reason for that.
> As for the range, we all know that EPA sucks and the EPA official ranges for Tesla are fake as fuck https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUsFLHBXQAAmENE?format=jpg&name=...
Your sources are hilarious. That image is from TeslaCharts. Another short seller. See Wikipedia link below. The EPA, though sometimes inefficient like other federal orgs is the governing body on range. I trust them more than anonymous short sellers on Twitter. Many people also did real world tests that proves that Tesla is still the efficiency king.
"TSLAQ is a loose, international collective of largely anonymous short-sellers.... The group was the subject of a Real Vision video which included interviews with prominent members @TESLACharts and @Paul91701736."
> all major car manufacturers are just as competitive when it comes to battery efficiency as Tesla
You clearly don't even understand the engineering aspect here. The efficiency is from the drivetrain, motors and software. Not "batteries". This is why Teslas can go further than their competitors. While still maintaining the performance specs. Even though they may sometimes have smaller batteries.
No, I did not? See the links I attached again.
Cruise and Google have level 4 on the road, doing taxi service, in small scale tests.
The Subaru version on the other hand is more of a "driver safety" tool that would sometimes stop you from drifting all the way out of lane, but was nowhere near reliable enough to be relied on to steer.
Subaru markets it as a driver assistance tool, not as a replacement for the driver.
It's cool but it's clearly not ready.
That and I'm completely lost about the software-in-my-car thing - music, sure, but what else actually matters while the car is a tool rather than a self driving service (if you will)
I never did it, because I just couldn't have lived with myself, but about a year ago a friend and I popped into the Tesla micro-showroom in Cambridge (UK) and I realised I could order the Tesla Model S P100D with self-driving add-on - and otherwise customised to my exact preferences - for what amounts to an extended test drive and then return it no questions asked. It struck me as pretty ludicrous but I won't say I wasn't tempted.
At the time the P100D was the top-end model S, and cost ~£100k. It's not a car I could realistically afford although I'm sure finance would have been approved, and they would simply have delivered it to my house. Then I could have driven it around for a week and just returned it: a car I had no intention of paying for in the first place.
It's really not OK, but I imagine quite a few people have done it, so I can see why that might push them to a policy change, especially if baseline returns for other reasons - such as QC issues - were also high.
(One day I'd still really like a Tesla but even if I could afford the one I'd most want, for that kind of money an Audi RS6 or one of the AMG estates are more practical propositions. And then for about the same money as the Model 3 there's the Volvo V60 hybrid, with 398bhp and plenty of load space. I do like Tesla so I really wish they did an estate/station wagon. Wagons are extremely handy, especially with AWD, and especially for people like me who often make use of that cargo capacity but hate SUVs and trucks due to their bulk, and overall poor economy and driving dynamics. Still, I can understand that isn't the way the market is going - shame though.)
 Honestly, I was also worried I might want to keep it, and would come up with all sorts of justifications as to why it obviously made sense for me to put myself in a hole for a car. I ride motorbikes. I know what it feels like to go from 0 to 60 in less than 2.5 seconds. I don't need a Tesla for that, and bikes are a lot cheaper. But I was concerned that in the heat of the moment I might lose that perspective.
 I also worry about residual values at the end of any finance deal due to the batteries and, in general, Tesla's reputation for dicey quality, high maintenance costs, and less than stellar reliability.
£100k or whatever is a hell of a deposit for a test drive!
I just wish Tesla did a proper SUV. The Model X isn't any kind of SUV - it's just a big hatchback. Doesn't look like it'd really be capable off-road compared to something serious like a Land Rover.
It isn't a huge ding and only lasts for about 2 years (and trails off in impact over that time period), but if you did so repeatedly, that would be a negative signal to future lenders.
And what about the refund on your insurance, your DVLA registration, your time... etc. What an admin nightmare!
That said, my experience is with an all-cash/no-financing face-to-face purchase of a used car much cheaper than any Tesla, following a test drive and inspections both by the dealer and an independent inspector I chose, so mine was not all that similar of a situation.
Wow what if you've insured a $k car but use the policy to drive a $100k car and then total it?
They don't list what you actually bought. There's no way to know if you're underwater, and it doesn't matter because credit reports don't list your assets either.
You would need to do a lot of due diligence to make sure you really have no costs. Many car companies fully split their lending and you might end up with costs on not going through with lending even if you get your money back on the car.. Insurance companies, DMV registration taxes, etc, might try to hit you a little bit on rounding and can have some non-refundable charges but more significantly, will mess with you on paperwork which is all the hassle of work.
I doubt many people went through with that, though I can imagine people who started on impulse created weird situations for their sales teams and weren't worth the hassle.
All finance has a 14-day cooling off period so no worries there either.
Still, it's not hassle free: you have to arrange insurance, then cancel it, register the vehicle, unregister it, pay the VED, cancel that. It's definitely a PITA.
Yes not a failing to pay... but doesn't your credit report suddenly show £100k against your name? And they'll assume the car's deprecated so you'll be underwater. That's not as bad as failing to pay but I wouldn't want to be applying for a mortgage the next month.
There are also dealerships that offer extended test drives for trusted customers where you can keep a car for a few days, however I'm not sure if Tesla does anything like this.
If you want something more serious from Tesla, I guess you'll have to wait for the Cybertruck, which may have decent off-road capabilities.
Maybe they aren't having a lot of problems selling cars as I'm still waiting for it to be delivered - the current ETA is December :P
I had a wagon during the last 14 years and it was nice - I hope that the Volvo will be a good successor (first time I buy a Volvo). I never felt the need for more height (SUV) but the extra length of a wagon has been often useful , of course especially when carrying around long stuff (e.g. mattress, furniture, ...).
The on-demand AWD of the Volvo hybrid without having the maintenance costs for the mechanical transmission to the rear axle was one of the things that made me focus on that car.
Funnily enough I also bought a Volvo instead of a Tesla, I tried to arrange a test drive of one but was having a really hard time getting anyone to get back to me and actually arrange anything, went and test drove a new XC60 T8, ordered one the next day. Fortunately the dealership already had a few in the pipeline so I waited "only" 3 months instead of 9, but yeah, well worth the wait and I'm very glad I didn't go with the Tesla.
The only thing that I did not like much when I did the test drive with the V60 was the very light steering wheel. I then think that I read later in the manual that apparently it's possible to increase the resistance somewhere in the car's settings, but I'm not sure anymore => do you know by chance if yours has that setting?
Well, looking at the manual apparently it is possible, but only in the individual drive mode:
Which....is less than ideal, I frequently switch between Hybrid/Pure/Power, so having to stay in one of them just to have a tighter steering response is not acceptable.
Yeah, looks like that it's not a global setting. Well, I'll see if I'll get used to that and in the worst case there is at least the possibility to create a custom driving mode :)
It is also a policy that I believe helps with word-of-mouth, I specifically told friends and family about the policy and I also put 900 miles on my Model Y within the first few days to be sure there were no major issues I was unhappy with.
Regardless, the Model Y is fantastic, I can't wait for there to be more options like it available from all auto manufacturers.
Incredible how the world has changed during the last years :)
De facto? He's still doing it
Expressing himself does not preclude him from answering questions.
It’s logic. A being true does not preclude B being true unless B = not(A).
I don’t know how or whether you can link to mentions.
How many PR requests go unanswered?
People have stopped bothering to ask because they don't get answers. To quote this article, "While The Drive would contact Tesla for an explanation of Gigafactory Berlin's situation, the automaker recently disbanded its communications department.":
Is that good PR or bad PR?
0: https://electrek.co/2020/10/06/tesla-dissolves-pr-department... ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24697610 )
Elon's twitter is effectively the PR department now:
Not sure whether you'd disagree in this instance, but if so I'd sure like to know why.
Sure, you'll look like an absolute genius if you turn out to be right.
My employer loves to move people around while creating and dissolving groups. I've had a few title/group changes where literally nothing about what I did changed.
I suspect they do that because it allows them to couch terminations as layoffs. Just move everyone you want gone into a new group and lay off that group. It's not personal when the whole group is being downsized.
Some rental sales agencies do it the other way --- rent this car for a week, and if you like it, the rental cost goes towards the purchase price.
Given how excited I was for the Model 3, and how disillusioned I got after handling one for a few days when a client brought one in to have some equipment installed in it, I'd suspect it's some combination of quality issues and simply varying expectations. Tesla makes a LOT of decisions differently than other automakers, and there are plenty of people who love that, but also some who realize they're not comfortable with the car trying to outsmart them so often.
And that's the sort of thing that might not sink in on a 20-minute test drive, but which you'd definitely feel after a few days.
My first drive on a rainy, foggy night, everything went haywire, although given the limited ambitions of the systems, it wasn't serious.
The recognition of speed limits somehow failed so that it thought it was 70 mph everywhere. It couldn't recognize the lane markings, so it's jiggling the wheel and flashing warnings when I'm in the fast lane on the interstate, and for an instant I think I'm hydroplaning. Not helpful.
I think it has radar cruise control, which I haven't tried out yet, but I'm not sure if I trust it. And I sure hope the auto-braking doesn't do anything weird. It did warn me a couple days ago that someone stopped in front of me to turn left, but if I couldn't see that, I would still have had an accident.
What bugged me about the Tesla was the controls more than anything. There's no "off". There's no manual anything, and the overrides are buried so deep in the touchscreen, heaven help you if you forget where one is located. The car knows when it should be on, and when it should lock and unlock, and if you have different ideas about those things (heaven forbid you want to leave it unlocked while it's parked in a garage), you're going to have a bad time.
I gotta call those folks up and ask for my deposit back, I'm never gonna use it.
Maybe you get an annual bonus that puts $30K in checking, and you lend that to musk for a week.
Autopilot-barrier-lust posts are quietly removed, for example, My X Tried to Kill Me Today! A reminder for all you auto pilot drivers ... 
That issue was introduced in April 2018,
> Well, even AP2 didn't do this until a few weeks ago when they completely changed the algorithm. So what even counts as "AP1" or "AP2" if they can change everything on you overnight? 
Then there is "Phantom braking" which began happening in October 2016. A week ago Elon said it is "fixed" and when a user says it isn't, a mod jumps in to say,
> Sometimes I don’t think he really knows what is getting pushed to the fleet at that moment. 
The biggest forum for discussing something should not be moderated as if it were a fan club.
(489 comments) Hey Tesla, maybe stop building cars for a couple days to build up a repair part inventory.
> PSA: FSD Beta is NOT FULL SELF-DRIVING. Be safe and drive smart. 
The user says they were permanently banned . Even in a fan club it doesn't make sense to ban someone for reminding fans to drive safely with new features.
The forums you're talking about specifically state they are for fans, both in name and description.
FWIW, I spend some time in both r/teslamotors and r/realtesla. There are pretty clear reasons that both exist, and pretty clear reasons for some frustrations on both sides.
Tesla attracts a vastly more active audience than most other automakers, and the results are interesting.
One should be REALLY cautious about drawing broad conclusions, positive or negative from the anecdotes from either (r/realtesla or r/teslamotors) group.
Tesla also gave the owners the option of a repair or to just to get a different new one.
Continued quality issues and pulling the return policy are the real stories.
- Tesla's stock is astronomically high, garnering mainstream attention, shorters, and momentum investors that want to manipulate the media
- Tesla headlines garner massive click rates and are essentially what keeps a large number of web sites' lights on, so web sites up the dramatics on any Tesla story
- Elon Musk is polarizing, generating a lot of drama
- very big entrenched interests are very very threatened by Tesla and EV/batteries/green power, so they have an incentive to astroturf and overdramatize negative stories
- Tesla has quality issues from pushing deliveries and production too far over the quality threshold, giving plenty of fodder to the astroturfers
Seriously, look at the brigade downvoting going on in the comments on this story. It is very unusual, where comments with outright cursing and expletives are untouched, but pro-Tesla responses with linked articles are being massively downvoted.
What's the name of the new water supply company? The agreement they signed a few days ago was with the same supplier that just turned off the water.
What most likely happened was that Tesla quickly paid their bills and got the water running again and are spinning this to hide their embarrassment. The "bigger line" they are talking about is the permanent underground line they got built and can finally use. Before that they used temporary overground lines.
I’d fault tesla for not replacing the first policy with something that protects them and the customer in some way though. If customers can’t test drive their actual car before the purchase that makes it really tough to not have some kind of customer friendly return policy, whether it’s conditional or unconditional I'm not sure. But I think with their business model they would need some way to assure people when they buy.
Or charge a daily rental fee if it’s returned within 7 days or something.
Probably people curious about the tesla are the issue.
It would have to come with the understanding that you aren't meant to purchase the exact car you rented, though. I'm not sure if that would reduce how invested people feel in it.
> The FTC’s Cooling-Off Rule gives you a 3-day right to cancel a sale ...
Doesn't feel like it could cover Tesla sales, however, since "made entirely online" and "automobiles ... sold at temporary locations" both fall under exemptions.
Anachronistic exemptions, honestly.
Some other options:
It I had to guess they're starting to lose too much money and this a cost cutting method.
Cannot have good things because too many people will not just take advantage of the return policy, but take advantage of it.
They're trying to "solve" their ongoing QA problems by removing a customer safety net rather than addressing the underlying cause. I'm sure their metrics could be used to show abuse, but really it is Tesla's own community creating things like their own QA checklists which people were encouraged to go through on the first 7 and return if an expedient fix wasn't available.
Yesterday was a big day for Tesla - massive range increases across all models, including the brand-new Model Y, new interior and features for the Model 3, price drop for Model S. The top 500 posts on Hacker News contain the following unique Tesla stories:
* Tesla cancels it's no-questions return policy
* Tesla is against Right-To-Repair bill in MA
* How to fool Tesla's autopilot with images on the road
* Tesla has water cut off at Berlin factory construction site
Nor should you expect to find much positive sentiment in thread comments. This level of lopsided negativity forms a feedback loop - there's little incentive for someone with a positive sentiment to expose themselves to this sort of negativity, so they stay quiet or avoid the thread. This causes the thread to become more negative, and provides even less incentive for the next person to write something. This repeats until only people who wish to be trolls or contrarians remain.
I think most of us are just tired of the endless cycle of hype/lies/exaggerations.
Anyone who thinks this didn't follow the whole (now largely extinct) tslaq mess. The websites coordinating things were in plain view. Even today there are public attacks on Tesla and others: https://antiadvertisingadvertising.club/
I don't think its the cause of negative comments on Hacker News, though, tbh.
Also, shorting and sharing critical news is not a conspiracy, it's how a healthy market functions. If Elon or his fans were confident in the company's long term value they would simply buy more when people short it, not complain about the shorts.
Obviously "shorts" still exist, with current valuations one would expect plenty of potential profits for them.
I follow r/RealTesla because I want to follow the company's progress. There's a much higher signal/noise ratio there than in the official subreddit, at least so far.
(I also follow r/spacex - pretty high SNR too.)
It's probably not a bad place to find varied news stories but you definitely run the risk of subconsciously absorbing the bias.