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Why Did Mozilla Remove XUL Add-Ons? (yoric.github.io)
399 points by est31 11 months ago | hide | past | favorite | 336 comments



> I was very surprised to see that, years after it happened, some community members still felt hurt by this choice.

Actually, it shouldn’t be surprising at all since people lost a lot of useful functionality that still do not have replacements today. Users were not stuck on XUL as a technology. They cared about functionality and power user functionality!

I’m using mainline Firefox and not some fork that still supports XUL addons, but I still miss not having good replacements for:†

* Tab Mix Plus (I haven’t seen any replacement for this; and if you haven’t used this in the XUL world, you wouldn’t know the value of it)

* Lazarus (form saver)

* Session Manager (no, other session saving extensions still feel iffy to me)

For reasons I haven’t delved into, these extensions cannot live in a WebExtensions world today. So yes, I’m one of the people hurt by the choice not of removing XUL, but not providing alternatives even several years later.

> The main drawback is, of course, that WebExtensions do not give add-on developers as much power as the promiscuous extension mechanism. I hope that all the power that add-on developers need can eventually be added to WebExtensions API but that’s something that takes engineering power, a critical resource that we’re sorely lacking.

I don’t have a lot of hope since years have passed with progress in making some more addons work with WebExtentions but not really close to being there for other addons. Though the Firefox team has said it’s currently not planning to implement Manifest V3, if and when it does (and depending on how it does), that could potentially make uBlock Origin obsolete. That would be a much larger blow to the users.

†: Please let me know if you have suggestions for great replacements for the first two extensions.


I'll agree this is all true for power users but I think that catering to that small number of power users at the expense of having a faster, more stable, more secure browser earlier was a major mistake.

I loved Tab Mix Plus too and yes, there are some things you still can’t do in WebExtensions that you could do before. And that sucks. But I stopped using Firefox despite those options because it was so slow and unstable, especially on the Mac. By the time it got better, it was not only too late, but Chrome had extensions.

Catering to the loyalists is what killed Firefox. What’s more important to normal users is speed, not Tab Mix Plus.


Well, Firefox is far from dead, is it?

I guess the issue is a different view of what Firefox should be; I feel that many people would be satisfied if Firefox was just a small(ish) browser catering to power users. There's nothing wrong with that: power users are users too (and there are more of them than many seem to think), and I feel that many people are somewhat frustrated that all software seems designed with only my grandmother in mind. This is an issue that extends far beyond XUL by the way.


> if Firefox was just a small(ish) browser catering to power users. There's nothing wrong with that

Except that it couldn't work in today's world, as more and more web sites would stop working in Firefox. Firefox needs significant market share to survive with an independent browser engine. Having an independent engine is key to achieving Mozilla's mission: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/mission/

You can build a browser focused on power users if you don't need to worry about the engine. Perhaps you want to take a look at Vivaldi?


When you have a browser that is USED by programmers, the programmers will know that their own site is bad. Problems started when it stopped being a browser for programmers and power users.

They were the ones marketing it. Mozilla cut the branch on which they were sitting and is now shocked that they lose maretshare.


> I feel that many people would be satisfied if Firefox was just a small(ish) browser catering to power users.

There's no way to do that in today's environment. Browser development is extremely expensive (there's only 3 companies in the world developing competitive browser engines) so you need money. For Firefox, the only way to get serious cash is to have serious marketshare.

And in reality there isn't that many "power users". I mean, even a lot of developers (like me) use barely any extensions and in any case prefer more speed than more extensibility.


Browser development is not that expensive. Developing of Web-Engines is the dark part that sucks all the money.

> For Firefox, the only way to get serious cash is to have serious marketshare.

Not true. That's only valid if your single income is marketshare-based. Mozilla for some unknown reasons hasn't made any serious attempts in the last 15+ years to get any alternative income, instead it was satisfied with being feeding on google and yahoo, while wasting money on some obvious dead projects.


> Browser development is not that expensive. Developing of Web-Engines is the dark part that sucks all the money.

Of course, but then there's enough Chromium skins, no?

Without independent browser engine you have no clout in defining and ratifying standard (as MS recently found out) which means giving Google full control.

> Mozilla for some unknown reasons hasn't made any serious attempts in the last 15+ years to get any alternative income, instead it was satisfied with being feeding on google and yahoo, while wasting money on some obvious dead projects.

They had some feeble attempts which largely failed.

Mozilla's main expertise is still browser technology based and it is probably difficult to monetize it.


> Of course, but then there's enough Chromium skins, no?

Most of them are more than skins. A browser is the interface and whole workflow, not just the way the website is displayed.

> as MS recently found out

What do you mean?

> They had some feeble attempts which largely failed.

They had no SERIOUS attempt. Well until now at least. They did some half-assed with pocket and now VPN-reselling, but never touched real business.


> Most of them are more than skins. A browser is the interface and whole workflow, not just the way the website is displayed.

The user interface is just minor part of the browser.

Mozilla's mission is to "free the web". Something like that can't be done with slightly sleeker UI on top of monopolistic rendering engine. You need to have an influence on all levels.

> as MS recently found out

I've read it this week in some interview with the FF developers that ever since MS gave up on homegrown Edge engine and adopted Chromium/Blink their voice on the standards committee is weak and lacks clout.

No wonder. It's google who keeps strict control over chromium/blink. MS can discuss, propose, even send PRs, but it's google who will decide what gets in and what doesn't.

> They had no SERIOUS attempt. Well until now at least. They did some half-assed with pocket and now VPN-reselling, but never touched real business.

Well yeah. But it just sounds a bit simplistic to say "just earn that $500 million profits somewhere so you can sponsor your side project Firefox".


> Mozilla's mission is to "free the web". Something like that can't be done with slightly sleeker UI on top of monopolistic rendering engine. You need to have an influence on all levels.

That depends on behaviour.

> I've read it this week in some interview with the FF developers that ever since MS gave up on homegrown Edge engine and adopted Chromium/Blink their voice on the standards committee is weak and lacks clout.

As if they had much to say before... But that's the point, your influence depends on what you do and who is backing you. Chrome-Edge is just too small and Microsoft is not doing much to build their influence at the moment.

> Well yeah. But it just sounds a bit simplistic to say "just earn that $500 million profits somewhere so you can sponsor your side project Firefox".

If you have a budget of some hundred million dollars and a very big and enthuastic community, then it's very easy to make money. Even having enough money at all can make you money, though this might be ruled out for Mozilla because of their legal status.


> If you have a budget of some hundred million dollars and a very big and enthuastic community, then it's very easy to make money.

Please send some of those "3 easy steps to start earning $500 million a year" to the Mozilla, they could use them.


> If you have a budget of some hundred million dollars and a very big and enthuastic community, then it's very easy to make money. Even having enough money at all can make you money, though this might be ruled out for Mozilla because of their legal status.

Do you have ideas that can help Mozilla make money? Preferably without abandoning Firefox on the way?


Yoric:

Plenty have been voiced over the last decade. The problem is that none of the observations are ever received in earnest. Particularly starting in the Kovacs years and onwards, MoCo folks have adopted a default stance that if you're not within the figurative walls of @mozilla.com, then there's something you just don't understand as well as the anointed ones do. Meanwhile, none of the moves that the better-knowers have made have ever panned out. And in any discussion that does occur, there are all sorts of rhetorical tricks and intellectually dishonest maneuvers that are brought out to shut the conversation down. The Corporation's insistence on its own competence at this point is a lot like the "I have people skills!" scene from Office Space, only it's not a comedy and just depressing.

There's the separate matter, which is that Mozilla's problem isn't even a lack of money. Mozilla has money (and will continue to have money for at least some time). Mozilla's problem is its profligate spending and that it has chosen for itself a set of decisionmakers with Netscape-levels of ineptitude who can't be avoided.

If course correction is even possible at this point—and it's probably not—then the question is, who are the Hewitts and Blake Rosses and Ben Goodgers in 2020? Has Mozilla leadership even fostered an environment where those types can thrive? (Spoiler alert: the answer is no.)


I'm not OP, (and people at Mozilla have probably already considered this), but why doesn't Mozilla try a far more aggressive Wikipedia-like donation campaign?

Admittedly:

1. Wikipedia has more "users" than Firefox.

2. Despite this, the donations Wikimedia receives are only about a fifth of Mozilla's budget.

However, people use their browser far more than they use any single website and hence might be more willing to donate more to Mozilla. (For example, I love Wikipedia, but I've gotten even more value from Firefox.)

Overall, this would be unlikely to cover all of Mozilla's expenses, but I'd also be surprised if donations (after such a campaign) would be less than 10% of current revenue; in any case it'd be a valuable source of diversification.

It's possible that the legal relation between the Foundation and the Corporation doesn't make this possible.


3. If wikipedia disappeared, there's no immediate, obvious, free alternative.


https://infogalactic.com/info/Main_Page

IIRC it started as a fork of Wikipedia from a few years ago, so no idea of its currently quality, but it exists.


Thankfully, they saw this coming, so wikipedia's licensing allows you to re-host the entire site. Useful if they ever turn crooked.

Stack overflow has the same sort of setup, for the same reason. (though, that site is far more likely to die/get perverted)


Encyclopedia Britannica[0] isn't free ("libre"), but it is now free (gratis). Arguably, being libre isn't quite as indispensable in the case of cultural/educational works as it is for software.

[0] https://www.britannica.com/


It's only gratis because Wikipedia exists. If Wikipedia were to disappear you'd see a paywall on EB within minutes.


Doesn't the same also partially hold for Firefox and Chrome, though?

They wouldn't start charging for Chrome, as that's not their business model, but they might move part of their development out of (open source) Chromium and into (closed source) Chrome or further curtail extensions (e.g. adblockers) etc.


Google has done that with Android, moving more APIs and features from the open-source AOSP core to the closed-source Google Play Services library. Google can then control which Android partners get permission to ship Google Play Services for a full-featured Android experience.

As more browsers move to a Chromium base, Google might have a similar push to move more of Google's value-add out of the open-source Chromium core to the closed-source Chrome product.


No. Firefox vs Chrome is a completely different comparison than Wikipedia vs Encyclopedia Britannica.

The first two are browsers; software, the second two are stores of knowledge.

Browsers have been free for the longest time now, they are a commodity; the 'for pay' browser market died a long time ago. Possibly that was a mistake but that's where we are now and the parties that supply browers (Mozilla, Apple, Microsoft, Google to name the bulk) all try to win marketshare because they benefit from having more users. Putting up a barrier will automatically play into the hands of the opponents.

Wikipedia is a free and much larger alternative to EB, which historically was very expensive. If Wikipedia goes away there is no longer any incentive for EB to have a free tier, which is the one thing they can do to erode support for Wikipedia a little bit.


I'm not disagreeing that (in these scenarios) EB would probably become paid-for, while Chrome never would. I'm just arguing that Chrome would become even more privacy- and user-unfriendly, which is the approximate equivalent of EB putting up paywalls. (Is paying with your attention and privacy better or worse than paying directly with money?)

Apple would continue offering a relatively privacy-friendly alternative — but would require you to switch OS to use it; Microsoft might fork Chromium, but I fear that they'd only pay lip-service to privacy.

Obviously these analyses are complicated by the fact that in both cases the forces that helped create Wikipedia/Firefox wouldn't disappear. If Wikimedia died, then people would put up their Wikipedia dumps online in their own MediaWiki instances. If Mozilla died, then people would either try to keep Firefox alive or try to maintain a set of privacy patches on Chromium. How successful they'd be is another matter...


The original design goal of Firefox was to be a "90/10" browser (relative to the old Mozilla suite). e.g. 90% of the people only need 10% of the features. Catering to power users was never the goal of Firefox and they lost users to Chrome when they did. What people want is a browser that loads webpages quickly and doesn't use a lot of system resources doing so.


These "most people only use 10% of the features, so we can drop the rest" ideas are just soo stupid & can quickly kill otherwise good projects. And it's not just about chasing away power users, who are about the only advocates and marketing you have. Its mainly about the 10% being different for every user, effectively covering the full feature matrix!


Exactly. There's no such thing as an average user: https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-...

If you design your thing for the average user, it won't work well for any user.


Yet that seems to be precisely who they're targeting.

The only benefit Firefox now has over Chrome is a vague political notion of not using Google-made software, something that there isn't enough call for in the real world to drive significant marketshare. Their real differentiation was sacrificed on the altar of ease of development, and now what we're left with is an also-ran, in multiple meanings of that term.

Worse, an also-ran that's doing increasingly arational things, almost as if they're wildly groping about for the mythical marketshare.


Well, perhaps not the only thing: Tree Style Tabs opens in a sidebar in Firefox (and with user CSS, can be made to auto-expand), while in Chrome it opens in a separate window.


Well, Mozilla included email, chat, and whatnot. Regardless of what the goals were, it did cater to power users and clearly many people don't want the direction Firefox went in.


> and clearly many people don't want the direction Firefox went in.

A majority? I doubt it. I think it’s an extremely vocal minority that don’t care about the slowness of their browser (pre-e10s, pre-quantum), about things breaking (XUL extensions) or about UI features for the broad masses.

I’d bet money that FF’s 25% in Germany would be far closer to US numbers if they stayed where those vocal people want them.


I never said majority.

All I'm saying is that based on my observations people's views on what Firefox should or should not be are different, and that this explains why people are still "angry" about the extensions breaking and such. I'm not having an argument with anyone.


That may seem like bloat today, but in those days, web mail barely existed and was inferior.

If anything, using the MUA bundled with your browser was less power-userish than using a stand-alone client.


I still miss the old Opera, including the built-in email client I used. So yeah, I agree.

Honestly, Opera is one of the best pieces of software I've ever used. It had tons of features and customizability without being slow or feeling "bloated". I never quite understood why it failed to gain marketshare 10 years ago while Firefox did.


> I never quite understood why it failed to gain marketshare 10 years ago while Firefox did.

Firefox was free and Opera wasn't. Geeks don't trust proprietary garbage.


Strongly disagree - I think the reason Firefox market share is in a tailspin is because once they "rationalized" the codebase by getting rid of power features - there was no moat around them to keep even simple upstarts like Edge away. Programmers often make the mistake of classifying all complexity as cruft - when much of that are use cases accumulated over time that reflect your competitive advantage - one that any competitor has to overcome. The more Firefox streamlines the more they will cede ground to better funded alternatives.


Firefox’s market share started declining when Google ran huge ad campaigns for Chrome and made some of the most popular sites on the web promote Chrome and, in the case of YouTube, run better on it. Microsoft Edge didn’t affect Firefox much, and fared equally poorly against that juggernaut.

Any theory which talks about niche features without accounting for that push is unlikely to be right.


Quibi had a big ad budget too.

Marketing gives you leg up, but at the end of the day, a product's merits have to live up to it. Both IE and Safari had an even bigger advantage than marketing by being built-in to their respective platforms, and both have lost marketshare to Chrome.

I'll say pointblank I don't know what people see in Chrome, but they clearly see something in it. To me today, Safari, Firefox, and Chrome are essentially identical, which is a bad spot to be in for everyone except the market leader, because there's no incentive to switch.

UPDATE: There's a stronger case regarding Google sabotaging Firefox, but I don't think that accounts for the magnitude of the switch, here's a detail of the accusation[0]:

> A Mozilla Program Manager named Chris Peterson accused Google of making Youtube performance slower on the Firefox explorer in July 2018. Peterson alleged that Google was aware that both Firefox and Edge, Microsoft’s browser, were performing better with regard to loading the popular video sharing platform YouTube and decided to switch to a Javascript library which was incompatible with Firefox.

Google Chrome became the dominant browser around 2012, after being released in 2008. That's an astronomically fast takeover, if there were any shenanigans that accounted for it, they'd have to be quite aggressive (and therefore discussed more at that time).

[0]: https://btcmanager.com/former-mozilla-executive-accuses-goog...


Back in the day, Chrome was faster — almost as fast as Safari to launch and faster when executing heavy sites. When it took IE and Firefox longer to load, installing Chrome was something which had an immediate benefit and Google's heavy promotion of it meant that most people gave it a try.

These days, I agree that the main problem is that any modern browser is good enough that people don't feel a huge pressure to switch. I prefer Firefox's developer tools but that's not exactly a mainstream need. The most obvious angle would be something about ad blocking and privacy where Google has significant financial incentives not to follow but I' m not sure how much of an audience that could add up to and it will definitely get hostility if effective.


My grandmother used Tax Mix Plus several years ago. I personally found it a bit laborious, but she liked organising her reading. That was such a wonderful extension.

People on HN make the mistake of assuming that the mythical 'average' user will not use such features. And convincing them otherwise is so difficult. The folks who love your product will plumb every depth of it. Not everything needs to be dumbed down to the dirt.


> What’s more important to normal users is speed

If normal users cared about speed they can go and use Chrome. The framing in many of the comments here seems to be that there is 1 ideal that all web browsers should be working towards; and it is represented by Google Chrome. That isn't really the case, there are multiple interpretations. It is very annoying that Firefox chose the path of being Chrome-but-worse. All the people who want Chrome are using it - or chromium - and they don't need Firefox trying to implement the same thing but in red.

Firefox has lost substantial features over the years - Chatzilla for example was a great little add-on. It is quite a bold strategy to write a blog post saying "we stripped out a bunch of features, but trust me you didn't want them". Even if it is true there doesn't seem to be the level of regret here that is appropriate for trashing an ecosystem that has never recovered.


> I think that catering to that small number of power users at the expense of having a faster, more stable, more secure browser earlier was a major mistake.

Catering to power users is the only reason Firefox ever had market share in the first place! Normal users do not install their own browsers. Normal users do not care about their browser. They barely even know what a browser is, other than it's the thing they use to get on the Internet.

Every bit of Mozilla's original market share came from power users wanting a browser with more features and power than Internet Explorer. And once the power users fell in love with it, they evangelized it relentlessly to their friends and family. There were campaigns for power users to go install it on grandma's computer. This is the only way Firefox ever got on a normal user's computer. (This was also the only way Firefox got headway in enterprise environments, though it would have made a lot more if Mozilla had listened to power users and system admins and added the group policy and installation options they asked for.)

Chrome crushed Firefox because it was a decent, fast browser and because of the massive marketing budget. Chrome was and is pushed hard on the biggest web properties on the world - you get notifications on Google and YouTube if you use anything other than Chrome. Various other installers also installed Chrome, unless you unchecked a box. There were TV commercials. It was the default browser on Google platforms from phones to Chromebooks. That's why Chrome won.

When Firefox killed feature after feature that catered to power users, power users cared less and less about evangelization, and some of them switched to Chrome because Firefox was becoming increasingly Chrome-like, Chrome dev tools were evidently pretty good, and many people perceived Chrome to be faster. I still use Firefox, but I honestly don't see any reason to other than ideological reasons, which are becoming increasingly tenuous and not really a winning argument even for power users.

This is why Firefox usage will continue to decline. It doesn’t matter how much faster Firefox becomes. It doesn’t matter how much easier Firefox development gets. Mozilla alienated their core user base, they aren’t coming back, and normal users are never going to start installing niche browsers that aren’t pushed hard by multi billion dollar companies. Mozilla has no path forward. They’ve screwed up irrevocably and the best they can hope for is to manage the decline and cling to their remaining user base. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like they’re going to be able to manage even that.


I.e. new users, like friends, are cooler and more exciting than old users.


uBlock Origin is important enough to Mozilla that it's featured prominently on the add-ons pages, it was the first add-on made to work on the new Firefox for Android ("make uBlock work" was its own milestone item), and Mozilla developers have actually contributed design work back to the project. Couple this with the positioning win of having uncrippled blocking compared to Chrome, and you can rest assured that Firefox won't break uBO.


Well, that is a single addons and only one of 9 currenly allowed on Android Firefox (!!). All the other addons not on the list - bad luck!

Its nice they help an addon or two, but does not help if they neglect the overall addon API & don't even let you install other addons not on their cherry picked list, even if they would work just fine!


> Well, that is a single addons and only one of 9 currenly allowed on Android Firefox (!!). All the other addons not on the list - bad luck!

What are you talking about? When I go to the store on Firefox for Android right now, it shows me a list of 11 "featured" extensions (so 9 is already wrong). To test whether that list is exhaustive, I searched for an extension not in the list (Old Reddit Redirect). I successfully installed it and confirmed that it works. So as far as I can see, both of your claims are completely wrong.


Are you sure you are running the new Fenix based Firefox (~v79) and not the old Fennec based one (v68) ?

They are rolling the update in vawes abd not all countries are yet affected. But you can still try Fenix based Firefox by installing the Beta ir Nigtly versions


I've had my current set of extensions for at least 6 months.


Mozilla has replaced the existing Android app, Fennec, with Fenix. It has not rolled out to all users and regions yet. So some users have yet to get or even see the update.

Fenix uses a whitelist-only model for extensions, and had only around 9, last I checked. Based on some github issue comments, it seems like they'd prefer to stay with a whitelist approach for the foreseeable future.

If your extensions are important to you, you'll need to disable auto-updates for Firefox in the Play store, and avoid using 'update all' and similar - that is, if your extensions aren't on the list.

A version of the old app is available through F-Droid, but it purports to de-mozilla-fy the browser, so I presume sync and other things may not work the same.


About the addon whitelist

A couple more info points - yep, they indeed have a list of addons and if the addon is not on the list, you just can't run it, full stop. Even if no one actually tried if it is broken.

I know this as a fact as someone posted a patched build with a custom list covering many more addons. I installed that and tried two addons from that list I use on desktop Firefox. One did not work (ImTranslator), but the other run just fine (Furiganaize) as on desktop. So Firefox developpers are blocking user from using perfectly working addons as they can't be bothered to add them to their fancy list of allowed addons.

About Fennec from F-Droid

I have been using it since Mozilla broke the perfectly working Firefox install on my Android tablet with the quarter baked Fenic based release and so far I have not found anything missing even if it is supposedly cleaned up from non-free parts. But I don't use Firefox sync, so I can't comment on that.

BTW, Fenix based Firefox build is being worked on for F-Droid as well (they had to cut out all the non-free stuff Mozilla puts into a normal Firefox binary, reportedly a lot more than for Fennec) so if Fenix becomes usable one day, one can get it from a source that will not stealthily replace it by something broken.


Are you kidding me? Do you honestly think it matters if it is 9 or 11 when we lost like a million? And the ability to run our own?


I hope the new one is less of a disappointment. The current one can't even do basic stuff like search through bookmarks/history, has no awareness of various things like tags in bookmarks, overall just still missing such a vast amount of functionality from desktop.


They also made lots of promises about supporting these popular addons in WebExt era in particular, you should still be able to find plenty of meta-bugs about them on Bugzilla [1].

Of course, most of them never happen, and people are disappointed.

[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1226546


> * Lazarus (form saver)

Not sure what this one used to provide, but I rely a lot on Form History Control [1] to save my input before the browser crashes (which it tends to do every ~10 minutes these days) and stupid websites. I have done so for years, probably even when XUL was still a thing.

I use panorama Tabgroups as well as treestyletabs, but they have trouble coping with my 600+ tabs workflow. I think I might write my own with a graphical tree representation on a pinned tab, sort of a mindmap with tabs inside, comments, notes, etc. As this is how I would like to use my browser.

[1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/form-history-...


Why is your browser crashing every ten minutes? I can't tell you the last time that the desktop versions of Chrome, Firefox, or Safari crashed for me. That seems like a huge productivity issue if you have to restart the browser frequently.


It looks related to Wayland (sway). This behaviour has cropped up recently. Might be a combination of:

* Having a relatively big number of tabs (~600 in multiple tab groups)

* Having a lot of extensions

* Using sway/wayland

* Combination of the following environment variables: MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 MOZ_WEBRENDER=1 MOZ_USE_XINPUT2=1

It used to work fine, until something broke a few weeks ago, maybe in a sway/mesa/firefox update (running ArchLinux). This was way worse when autoscroll was enabled, so I disabled it as there is a bugreport for that.

I'm on holidays, so the browser is more of a productivity sink than something else, at times. Usually I don't mind much, and might restart it or leave it. Plus, 10 minutes is kind of an overstatement (it sometimes happens faster, but last three crashes took 23, 17 and 18 minutes respectively).

I'm living on the bleeding edge, so that kind of stuff happens. I's recently gotten way worse with Qt apps as well, so I would tend to blame sway. But running it as is is a good way to find patterns that might help resolve the issues once reported. I've said a few words in #sway, but didn't get an answer.

Don't worry, I could probably change my configuration in a few seconds if I needed more stability in a pinch (use another compositor, maybe another browser): I've launched a few Qt applications with -platform xcb recently.

I'm getting errors ranging from [GFX1-]: Receive IPC close with reason=AbnormalShutdown to Gdk-Message: Error reading events from display: broken pipe


If you have time, please file a bug with some links from your about:crashes. At least for Firefox, 600 tabs really isn't that many. (At least for us many-tab people; the more common "...but why would you ever have more than half a dozen tabs open, ever?!!" people will look at me in horror.)

I don't know for sure, but those error messages look more like what happens when one process (eg the renderer) crashes and severs its connections with others. They're probably unrelated to the actual problem.

It may be that what you're running into is a side effect of forcing WebRender on blacklisted hardware? I could imagine it starting to use a new API that's buggy in your driver. </wild-handwaving>.


> * Having a relatively big number of tabs (~600 in multiple tab groups)

I have found this extension[0] useful, for saving my machine when I leave too many tabs open. Just make sure to whitelist things you don't want unloaded. Like infinite-scroll webpages.

[0]: https://github.com/rNeomy/auto-tab-discard


Hmm. I was using a surprisingly similar setup (Arch, Sway, and Firefox) and never had those issues, but I think I was using Firefox with XWayland instead of those environment variables. I'm glad it's not a huge pain for you.


I use firefox under sway with MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 MOZ_WEBRENDER=1 and 100-ish tabs and 5-10 extensions and have not experienced crashes. Not the exact same env, but somewhat similar.


If there was no good browser with the option to use uBlock Origin, I think I would give up on the web.


Were that to ever become the case, I assume a PiHole would become a much more popular gift


A PiHole does not replace uBlock and vice versa. They can block different things at different points.


Possible replacements for Tab Mix Plus: Obviously there's no drop-in replacement for everything. Even with that aside, it's hard to make recommendations because it had so many features and probably a few were especially important to you and they might differ from the ones that were important to me.

For me, the number one feature originally was to force absolutely all popups to appear in tabs, not windows. This is actually just a built-in option now (maybe it was all along?) [1]

I used to use a feature where you could hold down the right mouse button and use the scroll wheel to switch tabs - I can't remember now whether that was provided by Tab Mix Plus or FireGestures. Anyway, now it's in FireGestures' successor, Foxy Gestures [2].

But the main recommendation is Tree Style Tab [3] (plus its own extensions [4] e.g. I use TST mouse wheel, and there seems to be a tab colouring one if that's your cup of tea). The key thing is that TST draws the tabs itself so it can make any manipulations it likes to them, which it can't do with the original tab bar in new extensions (you can hide the original tab bar [5] to avoid confusing and wasteful duplication).

I realise that laying your tabs out in a totally different way is quite a big change but it's actually an amazing change by itself. It's a much more logical way to layout tabs, and you can see more tabs at once (without resorting to multiple rows - yuck!). Once you get used to it, using a linear tab bar seems ridiculous in comparison. Plus extra vertical screen space is useful and horizontal space is typically just wasted. I recommend playing with its options a bit though; I find its default behaviour (collapsing trees automatically when you switch to another one) a bit frustrating.

[1] http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.link.open_newwindow.restri... (set to 0)

[2] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/foxy-gestures...

[3] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/tree-style-ta...

[4] https://github.com/piroor/treestyletab/blob/master/README.md...

[5] https://github.com/piroor/treestyletab/wiki/Code-snippets-fo...


I certainly care about having proper multiprocess support, and that was an important reason for letting go of XUL. Given the choice, I'd chose what we have now.


the one thing I still miss to this day is tamper data. a replacement is ZAP but it's nowhere near as convenient (and also much bigger in scope)


You could consider downloading the source for firefox, modifying the UI and building. Swap patches with other people and you have your "promiscuous" extensions.

Take a look at browser/base/content/browser.xhtml


... and then maintain it all yourself. Depending on what your patches do you might need to be a skilled systems level polyglot programmer. And make sure not to fall behind tracking mainline because there's new zero days all the time! Related, I sure hope you're not trying to compile on a laptop with limited RAM.


If you go in with the intention of writing an extension rather than a general case fork then it becomes a bit easier. You know from the start that you will rebase on top of upstream over and over again, and you should write code taking that into account. Minimal changes to existing code, ideally put your code in separate files and make single line changes to existing code to install hooks. Consider what code and interfaces are stable and what changes a lot.


I mean that's basically how the old XPCOM extensions worked for developers.


Sort of? But the amount of effort required is much higher. Source patches require having a full dev environment, it takes much longer to build the entire browser and you also have to take on responsibility for rebasing onto upstream, dealing with security releases for the browser itself _and_ every one of the patches, and running an update infrastructure.

Extensions from other people (which is 90%+ of them even for extension developers) just need to be loaded, and your own extensions only need a text editor and something that can make zip files.

Maintaining Firefox build and update environments is a multiple-employee full-time job at Mozilla, and that's before you've even started modifying anything. It's just too much to expect an end user to do this (and even extension developers are end users most of the time).


If you just need to modify the UI, consider userChrome.css and userChrome.js files: https://www.userchrome.org


I had written multiple XUL based addons that I used for personal productivity. When Firefox moved away from XUL/XPCom I think they removed not just an implementation (which I admit had many warts) but also the alternate vision of the Browser being extensible by end users who were almost on an equal footing with Browser developers. As a developer I can live with, support and cheer for a worse implementation of a better idea, but when you give up on that idea you rob me of any reasons I could use to support or evangelise for you.

It boils down to a simple question - does Firefox intend to go after power users in ways Chrome will not or cannot? The answer to this question used to be very clear to me in the first decade, now I think the answer is no. Even the Rust based oxidation efforts seemed limited to coming up with better implementation of the same primitives that Chrome offers, I didnt see anything about offering fundamentally different tradeoffs / choices.

If Firefox course corrects to going back to power users, I will be the first one to cheer them on. The vision for firefox has to be to reduce the gap between what browser developers can do and what end users can do.


I think your comment is a much more salient criticism.

In many ways, webExtensions could be a more accessible system than XUL addons if there was a serious effort to give the end-user more tools to use them. I honestly really like the overall architecture of webExtensions, and I like the idea of having more core code in modern Javascript. But there's a lot of weirdness around the ecosystem itself that makes building extensions into a chore.

There's a theoretical set of changes Firefox could make that would turn webExtensions into an extremely accessible, powerful user-facing feature for on-the-fly customizing and inspecting what their browser was doing. And I don't think it would need to be that inherently less secure.

It would need to approach security differently, but I feel like many of these are solvable problems, and many of the changes required (better sandboxing, active tab permissions) are stuff we want for extensions today anyway.

Some of the changes that came out of dropping XUL are really good. A lot of Firefox's styling is handled through CSS now. That should be a huge accessibility win for new users, and it should provide a nice gateway for new users to think more about moving on to making their own websites using the same technology. Except... userChrome.css is hidden in a config directory somewhere and not loaded by default[0]. They built a really nice way for users to quickly add minor styling customizations, and then they hid it from end users.

[0]: https://www.userchrome.org/how-create-userchrome-css.html


Sure - I can see that if we do arrive at a future where all of Firefox chrome is implemented via a HTML/CSS itself and it sits on top of a standardized core that exposes well documented APIs (which both end users and Firefox developers) can use for feature development - then yes we will be back to the world where someone outside Mozilla could build something like Komodo IDE on top of Mozilla tech.

One question I have as a user - what is an acceptable grace period for coming up with an equivalent replacement when you take an API away? Even the CSS styling not being loaded by default that you pointed out suggests that Firefox devs appear to view extensibility as something that they have to support cautiously and grudgingly. There is a chicken and egg problem here - if you make it harder to develop, build and ship non trivial extensions to end users then only a tiny fraction of users will use them. Then you will use the lack of usage of these extensibility features to deprioritize the development efforts that go into them. I would really like someone to take on the task of building a "Workstation" browser - built for power users.


> There is a chicken and egg problem here - if you make it harder to develop, build and ship non trivial extensions to end users then only a tiny fraction of users will use them.

This is a really good point.

> what is an acceptable grace period for coming up with an equivalent replacement when you take an API away?

I really don't know.

I am frustrated with the current state of extensions in Firefox, even as I acknowledge that the situation in Firefox is still way better than it is in browsers like Chrome or Safari, and even as I remain hopeful that the Firefox extension ecosystem could be really good. I am sympathetic to the argument that it's an engineering resources problem. But, that also makes me really nervous about the Mozilla cuts that happened recently, because now how long are we going to wait for Servo to be in a usable state, if it even ever gets to a usable state?

Like you mention above, when you're forging a new trail in an underdeveloped area and making a case that users would benefit from these features if the ecosystem supported them enough and trained users to use them, you need some freedom to be flexible and experimental and to waste some resources forging that trail. And if resources are as scarce as Mozilla is claiming, then what are the features that are going to be cut first? The experimental, trailblazing ones, the weird ideas like, "shouldn't there be a section in the Firefox options where users can just live-edit the CSS to the browser?".


So I will concede that it is time to bury all the XUL/XPCom misgivings. We now need to rededicate ourselves to the same extensible vision using the new stack.


I think we need some kind of champion to make that point -- to prove that the extensible vision we did have and lost is still worth pursuing.

But that's not really a useful thing for me to say, because I have no idea where we can go to get that champion, and I'm at least low-key worried about Mozilla's ability and willingness to be that champion.

But agreed. I think it's about more than just XUL vs webExtensions, I think it's a broad tech/cultural issue about making the case that end-user-accessible control and customization is important.


> One question I have as a user - what is an acceptable grace period for coming up with an equivalent replacement when you take an API away?

Done correctly, the replacement should have already been there for one release before the deprecated method is removed; this is because the downstream developers also need to transition to the new code. Ideally there's some amount of time involved (so no releasing two versions in quick succession without letting people have time to move off the old way). That depends more on the scale of what people have been doing with your old APIs.

Note that the deprecated method only has to work; it doesn't need to be performant. That means doing it as a shim on top of the new way is fine (even though it's code that might be thrown away soon).

All of this has ~nothing to do with what Mozilla had been doing with Firefox, of course. I'm still waiting for features that existed in XPCOM that are no longer supported.


I think that you can take the magnitude of this departure as a promise to never return.

I expect it to become the Safari you would have to install.


I don't care about XUL addons. What I cared about was addons with full access to the browser. I understand that they wanted to move, and that addons would break. But I would still love to be able to list non-sandboxed extensions in the store even if they came with a big warning "this extension will probably break with every new version of Firefox". There is still functionality that can't yet be replicated with WebExtensions.

For example I was maintaining VimFx as an unsigned extension for a while after it wasn't allowed in the store. Sure, it broke often, but the fixes were generally easy. However what really killed it was the lack of interest from not being able to be listed in the store and not being able to run on stable Firefox releases. If we could attract even a handful more maintainers I'm sure we could have kept it mostly up to date.

To this day I can't get back some of the functionality that I lost. Firefox is now just a different chrome. Sure, it is made by a different company, but the user functionality is now almost identical. (Sure, Firefox has about:config, but that is limited to what Mozilla imagined)

I'm really glad that Mozilla adopted WebExtensions. I think it is an amazing solution for most extensions. Plus it is safer and cross-browser. However there are a couple of extensions that need full access, and I wish that was still an option, even if there is no stability guarantee.


Question: would it be possible to restore the missing functionality through a companion process outside the browser?

Both Firefox and Chrome support the Native Messaging API [1] to communicate with a process outside the browser.

This would still be absolutely less than ideal as the process would have to be installed separately (I believe) and maintained separately for each platform - but it would allow the extension to be listed again.

[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Add-ons/Web...


For some extensions, yes. But the problem isn't so much sandbox from a security perspective, but the lack of access to Firefox internals.

For VimFx the primary problem is that it makes major changes to how input is processed. It can't get the level of input access it needs from the WebExtension APIs. You can see this in the WebExtension versions of similar vim-style binding extensions, I've tried maybe a dozen and none of them work as you would expect. It is common for inputs to be missed by the extension depending on what part of the browser is focused at the moment.


Yes, for example I've used Timimi [1] for saving TiddlyWiki [2] to the local disk, and it relies on native programs for its core functionality.

[1] https://ibnishak.github.io/Timimi/

[2] https://tiddlywiki.com/


Honestly, your best bet now if you really want to target the stable branch seems to be to maintain a patchset on top of omni.ja. I see no reason that these type of modifications need to be dressed up like they're an extension.


Because it is convenient. I don't want build my own Firefox distribution on every machine I use. All I want is to be able to include a script into the browser's chrome process and have an easy way to publish and share.

This is basically Firefox extensions used to be. (well also XUL patches, but that could have been done with JS too)


Then build some tools to make it more convenient by applying the patches post-installation, and publish/share it on github? I just don't see how this is any more hassle then having something that you call an extension but that breaks every update and also needs manual fixing.


You mean like addons.mozilla.org?


No, because the things up there don't break every update or require manual fixing.


Why? I don't see a message that says it is only for stable addons. I don't care if they mark them as unstable, or hide them in the search, but I think itt should be possible to distribute them. I don't see why we would create a whole new infrastructure when one already exists. We just need to repeal the policies that they put in place and come up with ones that allow this type of "power extension".


You can distribute them on any other site. Somewhere like github would be happy to host them. Power users already know how to use those sites to sideload extensions. I don't see what benefit is going to be had from distributing an unstable extension that can potentially break every update, break the entire browser, steal passwords, keylog you, etc, alongside all the other stable extensions.


This article really doesn't match my recollection of how things went down. It implies that the switch to a multi-process model (Electrolysis/e10s) was held up pending the switch to WebExtensions. But I'm pretty sure I remember a transition period during which all my XUL-based extensions were either rewritten to support multiprocess or deprecated, which was years before XUL extensions were actually killed in favor of the less-capable WebExtensions. The article talks about this like it's a path they rejected, even though I'm pretty sure it actually happened. That transition was also a lot less painful than the switch to WebExtensions: over a period of several browser releases, I watched as the list of extensions preventing my browser from turning on the multiprocess capability dwindled. All the most important and popular extensions I was using made the switch smoothly with no major user-facing changes in capability or UI, which is the exact opposite of how the WebExtensions switch went.

It would really help if this article could use dates and/or version numbers to establish the timeline of events it's talking about.


(article author) Thanks for the feedback, I've just updated this part of the article to clarify it. I don't remember exact dates, though, so I won't be able to add them.

But yes, you are right, there was a time during which a number of old-style extensions were ported to be compatible with e10s. It was possible for some, impossible for others, hard when it was possible, and most add-on developers didn't port them, either because it was too difficult or because they had grown tired or the _maintenance tax_ I mention.

And yet, after they had ported their add-ons to be e10s-compatible, the add-ons broke nevertheless, one by one, for all the reasons mentioned in the article.

At some point, we threw the towel.


> At some point, we threw the towel.

You threw in the towel before your most important extension developers did. Well-maintained popular extensions like NoScript and TreeStyleTab remained functional throughout the e10s transition with fixes delivered before the breaking changes in Firefox made it to stable releases, but they were irreparably harmed by the WebExtension transition. Their WebExtension versions are still not up to feature parity, despite ongoing maintenance.

It's quite obvious that the WebExtension model is better for users and developers of simple extensions. But it continues to not be an adequate substitute for the kind of extensions that gave Firefox real advantages over Chrome and other browsers. It's not at all apparent why those advanced, killer app extensions had to die in order to get the bulk of the extension ecosystem moved over to WebExtensions.


The author of NoScript was part of way more meetings than me during the design of the WebExtensions API, so he would probably be able to tell you more about what happened to his add-on.

I see a TreeStyleTab on AMO, so I guess it got ported: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-ta... . It may have been harmed by the progressive disappearance of XUL, of course.


> But I'm pretty sure I remember a transition period during which all my XUL-based extensions were either rewritten to support multiprocess or deprecated, which was years before XUL extensions were actually killed in favor of the less-capable WebExtensions.

It wasn't really years. Electrolysis went live in spring 2017 (it came with Fx 48 and was gradually activated till Fx54). Around that time was the first massextinction of addons.

WebExtensions and Firefox Quantum then came in autonm 2017 with Fx 57, finalizing the bigger second massextinction.


> Electrolysis went live in spring 2017 (it came with Fx 48 and was gradually activated till Fx54). Around that time was the first massextinction of addons.

Ok, so power users that mess with about:config (or users with zero extensions) were running e10s for more than a year before the WebExtension switch, and e10s was available in the beta and nightly channels long before then (ie. by late 2015).

But what's really important is that the process of enabling e10s was gradual and well-managed from a user perspective, rather than being a singular event that broke almost every extension long before viable replacements could be developed for most of them.


An alternative explanation about why XUL extensions needed to go by a Firefox dev Mike Conley [0], drawing pretty much the same conclusions and then some.

The same thing that happened to Firefox happened to Babel [1]. Babel's plugin API exposes the internal structures and APIs to plugins, which means they're unrestricted in what they can do, but it also means that it's very hard to change things in the codebase because you might accidentally break plugins that rely on the previous behavior / APIs. This is one of the primary motivations behind Rome [2].

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4542&v=6D6idUjkv...

[1] https://babeljs.io

[2] https://romefrontend.dev/blog/2020/08/08/introducing-rome.ht...


So there's an interesting parallel in Rust with clippy, which is a linter that uses internal compiler data structures to parse and find the things to lint. This makes clippy very powerful, but very, very prone to breakage. Eventually, clippy was simply upstreamed into the compiler proper, which meant any refactoring of the compiler had to fix all the clippy lint at the same time.

Linux is similar with drivers. Linux breaks internal kernel ABI all the time, but all the drivers upstreamed into the kernel are automatically fixed when this happens.

According to OP post, Firefox and addons developer would communicate when breaking changes happened, to make sure an upgrade path was doable. I wonder if a Linux-like system where a repo with all addons that developers could land refactors on when landing breaking changes would have changed the dynamic somewhat, by reducing the "addons developer tax".


I'd like to live in a world were instead of developers just breaking an existing api, they leave the existing, in use apis and add new ones. It's ridiculous how often shit just breaks because an api is changed in an update.


That approach is what made XUL and XPCOM un-maintainable -- a giant catalog of APIs in which large fractions were legacy, but non-removeable.


Because in 90% of the cases the API isn't removed for fun but because something in the backend changed.

You can't just "leave the existing" as that still means work if you have to write some translation layer from the old format to the new format. It's not like it would be free to keep the existing one around.


I'm sympathetic, but literally most of the article is about how hard Mozilla tried to do this, and how it slowed them to a standstill and precluded improvements entirely.


I’d rather the main platform keep its internal codebase clean and streamlined, removing/replacing APIs whenever there’s a need, and publishing advanced warning so that plugin devs can update their plugins. Legacy plugins shouldn’t be a reason for spaghetti code in the main platform.


Shall we keep compatibility with 16-bit drivers and TSRs when formatting floppy disks? https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20090102-00/?p=19...


There's this project called "Microsoft Windows" that's done this for decades. You want to be the one digging through 1998-era C++ to fix a bug? Didn't think so.


While I understand from a technical and business perspective (particularly due to the security implications of needing to manually review each and every new addon) why Mozilla eventually went down the WebExtensions route, having personally revived the old XUL/XPCOM "MessageFaces" addon (a Plan9/unix era vismon/faces knockoff for Thunderbird/SeaMonkey) from 2004 when I was in college in ~2016, I was devastated to hear that Mozilla was removing support for XUL/XPCOM and the Add-on SDK from Firefox.

Nothing that the extension achieved is even remotely possible anymore — adding custom column in mailbox Thunderbird XUL, custom icon vbox in the Thunderbird mail header, reading from a browser profile directory to display picons, windowed preferences, etc. I find this sad.

https://github.com/JohnDDuncanIII/messagefaces/

http://cs.gettysburg.edu/~duncjo01/sites/messagefaces/

https://kinzler.com/picons/ftp/

What's most sad to me is that my workflow was never quite the same after I stopped using SeaMonkey with many of the famous XUL-based extensions (Old Addons Page, Chatzilla, MessageFaces, etc.) — it was aesthetic bliss, particularly with the Orthodox (Netscape/Mozilla Suite) complete theme.

I've ranted about this in the past, but I still feel like XUL was a bit ahead of its time (see Facebook's JSX). Had Mozilla invested more development time in fleshing out the XULRunner APIs and marketing it as a universal platform-independent "native" UI language, perhaps the modern web ecosystem would look a bit different today.

I fear that the web today is slowly converging, aesthetically speaking, through the further limitation of site interfaces and UI, into a corporatized unary devoid of any creativity/novelty.


as an aside, it was also extremely cool/interesting to me that i was able to get the extension working with only a couple of modifications to the XPCOM api calls that had changed between 2004 and 2016


I still feel like XUL was a bit ahead of its time

But you said that you understand that from a technical perspective they had to replace it. That sounds more like a dead end than ahead of its time, unless there's something more?

IMHO, it was the wrong solution for a number of problems. Most of them don't exist anymore.


Sorry, i should have clarified — i feel like XUL, at a very early stage in the web's development, helped inform what advanced / platform independent interfaces might eventually look like (Facebook JSX -> React -> React Native, svgs, dom parsing, etc).

In recent years, particularly through the proliferation of things like JSX, javascript with XML-based extensions seems to be quickly becoming (for better or for worse) the dominant interface rendering paradigm.

I agree that XUL was, ultimately, probably the wrong solution due to a number of reasons, but its effects are definitely still somewhat visible in the ecosystem today.

What i'm still trying to figure out is how we recapture the freedom and aesthetic creativity that thrived during the early years of the web. We can argue that this was mostly a cultural/demographic shift in users, but I would also argue that, as McLuhan noted, shifting interfaces (particularly through a uniformity of aesthetics) can influence culture.


I see what you mean. Maybe some new app with a feature of creating something. Lately most novelty is in the consumer side.


From an engineering point of view, it's understandable that XUL add-ons had to go - this article lays out the case very well. But from a product point of view, Firefox lost its "killer app". Now the choice to use Firefox over Chrome is mostly an ethical one. That's a tough sell for most people, and it certainly won't get someone who's never used Firefox excited to try it.

Chrome may soon give Firefox a little win here by nerfing uBlock Origin, but is that enough?


> But from a product point of view, Firefox lost its "killer app".

For most of (former/present) Firefox users extensibility wasn't the "killer app".

FF gained its marketshare at the time because IE was so crappy on most metrics and that was the main competition.


Not being IE doesn't help much when the competition is Chrome.


Yes, chrome was for a long time simply better browser (mostly because it was much faster/responsive).

But as the article explains, this was largely caused by the need to provide extensive backwards compatibility which stifled innovation or completely prevented it (in case of multi-process architecture).


> FF gained its marketshare at the time because IE was so crappy on most metrics and that was the main competition.

But whoever kept Firefox after Chrome gained popularity probably do so because of the extensions.


uBlock Origin is already a bit nerfed on Chrome, and will likely be completely gone in the near future. That's Firefox's killer app for "regular" users, and power users too.

It's a matter of getting the word out. Mozilla likely won't outright bundle its features as to not completely alienate Google, since they are their main source of revenue, but seem to be okay with promoting it otherwise, as it is on the front page of addons.mozilla.org and was the first extension (and the only one, for a time, and still only one of nine) supported in the new Firefox for Android.

There are also "normal" users who do not care about blocking ads and tracking, or do not know about the performance issues, malware risk, and other reasons for using a blocker and have not made such a decision, trusting the browser to act in the best interest of the user. (We know that last bit doesn't work anymore.)

(Regarding uBlock Origin, gorhill has expressed that he will not neuter the extension to work with Chrome's API change, reference: https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uBlock-issues/issues/338#iss... )


If there are no browsers left supporting the likes of uBlock Origin then that will be a serious loss.


From that page. w3engine: "Firefox will be abandoned in the next year" 34 downvotes. https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uBlock-issues/issues/338


Why should I trust this random nobody who doesn't have even a single commit in their GitHub profile page's activity list?

Also, the comment you describe is from May 2019, so their timeline of "within the next year" is already refuted by reality.


I understand the reasoning behind why XUL and XPCOM had to go, but I learned about this technology when I was in college, just starting to become really passionate about technology, and Mozilla sold these things as "important" ideas, technological paradigms that were not just the best way forward but would make the world a better place by making development easier, exposing more things to power users, allowing better sharing of common components, etc.

Except in the end these were not the best way forward (well, at least for now, old technological paradigms do come back periodically, making the whole idea of an obvious unified "best way forward" questionable), and so Mozilla had to ditch them, and I understand that.

But that means when Mozilla is preaching that WebAsm or Rust or whatever is a truly revolutionary technology that will save the world, well, I don't ignore Mozilla, I just don't trust in their technological foresight like I used to.

In the bigger scheme of things, I tend to be more skeptical that programming paradigms like this really are revolutionary in general. Programming paradigms are interesting ideas, but I no longer see them as some forward march of progress that is paving the way to a golden age of technology.

I feel a little silly that I once thought this way, and a little silly for once being as passionate as I was for Mozilla.


I relate to a lot of this post. There was a time when it was totally obvious to me that XUL was going to take over the computing world. And whenever someone came up with a new technological paradigm, promising it would solve All The Problems, I either believed them or strenuously objected, feeling threatened by the idea that everything I knew was going to be invalidated.

Now that I'm old and jaded, it all seems silly. There are no silver bullets, everything is at best an approximation of a great idea that would solve at most a small fraction of all the real problems out there, etc.

I'm still pretty invested in Mozilla (ok, I work here now), but more for the good of human advancement and discourse, and an actually useful portable runtime that is kept free from being captured by entities that would inevitably use it as a weapon for lock-in and monopolization.

Things aren't looking all that great on the latter front right now, and indirectly though it might be, Firefox's market share is one of the most potent defenses against that. Even if Mozilla has a trail of missteps and lost opportunities. (To be honest, I actually think Mozilla has done far better than is commonly portrayed on this site. It's amazing how many people could obviously done vastly better than the idiotic monkeys running Mozilla into the ground for their own small-minded amusement.)


I think you're confusing the implementation with the idea. XUL wasn't the right path forward for bringing web technologies into the desktop as we can see with the failure of XULRunner but a ton of apps are written today with Electron and HTML5. E4X was an interesting idea bringing XML into Javascript as native objects, but the ultimate implementation lives on as JSX with React.


As someone who had to maintain E4X within SpiderMonkey: sadly, that's another great example of the wrong technological path. JavaScript is too dynamic, it gives you too much rope to hang yourself, and E4X was apparently not designed with that in mind. It was so nice when we removed E4X and didn't have to worry about `x` being an object during a lookup `obj[x]`.

To give an example of the flavor of issue: when building an array (even from a literal), you couldn't push a series of values to the stack and then construct an array out of them, because with E4X between elements 2 and 3 you might end up invoking arbitrary code with access to the array so that it establishes a setter on element 4 and adds a `valueOf` hook to what you're passing as element 5, but oh wait that's the same object you already inserted as element 0, and anyway the array might be frozen now and... (I'm making this up; I know the issues were similar to this but I probably don't have the details quite right.)

E4X was a rich, rich source of security bugs. I'm sure a simplified form of it is possible and would be quite cool, but that niche is already filled now with JSX for better or worse.


Rust - noted by a wide cross-section the industry as a huge step forward in memory safe languages - and XUL seem like an unfortunate equivalence to draw.


This is a great article but it saddens me that it had to be written because all these years later, community members are still mad their extensions don’t work.

I guess I’ve underestimated all these years that what David described as the problems with XUL and the reasons it had to go away weren’t commonly understood. As the post states, it was clear as far back as 2010 (and honestly earlier), that XUL extensions were both Firefox's killer feature and also the reason that it got its ass kicked by Chrome (and to a lesser-extent, Safari). Extensions were amazing but the tax it created for performance, development, and security ended up becoming what made the browser so slow. Chrome and Safari didn’t have extensions but they had speed and built-in features that replicated many of the most popular extensions. And once Chrome added extensions support — and support that didn’t require that add-on development tax — it was over.

I found this bit of the post really telling:

> And yet, there was no choice for Mozilla. Every day that Mozilla didn’t ship Electrolysis was one day that Chrome was simply better in terms of architecture, safety and security. Unfortunately, Mozilla delayed Electrolysis by years, in part because of the illusion that the Firefox benchmarks were better enough that it wouldn’t matter for a long time, in part because we decided to test-drive Electrolysis with FirefoxOS before Firefox itself, but mostly because we did not want to lose all these add-ons.

>In the end, Mozilla decided to introduce WebExtensions and finally make the jump towards e10s as part of the Quantum Project. We had lost years of development that we would never recover.

This aligns with what has always been my personal view which is that Mozilla waited too long to make the changes it needed to compete with Chrome and by the time it finally did the hard thing and lose extensions and start over.

When you consider that there was still time after Chrome was released but before Quantum where IE had the largest browser share (it wasn’t a long period of time post-Chrome, but it existed), that’s indicates to me that there was time both before and after Chrome's introduction for Mozilla to rip the band-aid off and drop XUL for the greater good of the browser. After all, IE didn’t have extensions in any comprehensive way, which could have given Firefox to refactor and approach. Sadly, Mozilla waited too long.

But what really makes me sad is that there are still diehards mad that XUL died. When to me, we should all be angrier that it was allowed to live as long as it did.


> community members are still mad their extensions don’t work

I suspect a lot of these people aren't very familiar with the details of the technology involved, or the tradeoffs involved. The were simply (understandably) upset when suddenly their favourite extensions stopped working. And in the early days WebExtensions, there weren't any good replacements for a lot of popular plugins. Even now, there's no way to do some of the things plugins did before.


How many non developers used vimperiator?

I am very familiar with software and in particular the tradeoffs between business pressure to ship something new and shiny vs keep maintaining something that works....


Just because you are a developer doesn't mean you necessarily understand the challenges of writing a xul plugin that doesn't break other plugins, and doesn't break on every browser upgrade.


No one is truly a Scotsman...


We know exactly what Mozilla said and yet my actual experience before the change Firefox was performant enough whilst having exactly the UI I wanted and never crashed whilst after the change Firefox uses all the memory on my system has crashed several times (also the memory hogging causes swap issues which are as bad as a system crash) AND the UI is worse.

I used to use FF because it was better than Chromium. Now I used it because Mozilla is not Google.


We're still mad because they still don't work.


And FF (as Chromium always has) now consumes RAM until my system crashes...


We* are still generally better at that, but there are many different situations so different users have very different experiences. Please file a bug, preferably with an about:memory report while the browser is using an uncomfortable amount of memory. (You can actually get more info using the Memory tool in devtools, but it's trickier to use and doesn't work after the memory usage has gone too far.) A profile https://profiler.firefox.com/ could also be useful -- it'll record what addons you have, for example, and memory use over time -- but we can figure that out in the bug.

* (I work on Firefox)


It crashes my whole linux system. Is about:memory preserved on restart? Is it safe to send my employer's data?

I've largely switched to just running FF inside a VM. It seems to use all the available memory in a given system so I just give it less memory and it performs about the same...


>It crashes my whole linux system.

Enable SysRq magic key and use it to invoke OOM killer manually when it freezes. Linux has this weird peculiarity of not invoking OOM killer automatically before system exhausts memory. (and instead just runs extremely slowly, shrinking buffers to zero and loading executable pages from disk)


>Firefox's killer feature and also the reason that it got its ass kicked by Chrome

5% faster page load still isn't a killer feature.

>Extensions were amazing

And the reason everyone who left used the browser.

>lose extensions and start over.

A smart company would never have done this. They would have maintained both to see if anyone would use the new browser. Instead, they took their customers on a forced march down a trail of tears.

Imagine if another company tried this. Imagine if Tesla said, "We know you love electric cars. So today we're going to stop making them and sell hydrogen powered motorcycles instead. They're faster! Sorry, we won't be making parts for or supporting the cars anymore." It would be corporate suicide. Imagine how angry the car owners would be, after they invested in the idea and the charging equipment, only to be abandoned by the company.

It makes perfect sense to continue shipping the old product in the face of a "new better" one. Apple continued selling iPods long after the iPhone arrived. Killing the successful core product and releasing a new untested competing product is an insane gamble. I can't see how Mozilla leadership ever thought that was a good idea.


At least in your analogy no one comes to your garage and replaces your car with a bike....


Well, that's hopefully answered in the article.


Over many years, I had to port an addon from Greasemonkey to XUL to Jetpack to WebExtensions. The number of add-on users steadily dropped as the number of Firefox users dropped.

Now, if you write a Firefox extension, and it's not a Mozilla-recommended extension (something you have to beg for) anyone installing it gets a scary notice:

"This is not monitored for security through Mozilla's Recommended Extensions program. Make sure you trust it before installing."

This is after going through Mozila's approval and signing process. Unsigned extensions won't install at all in the release version of Firefox.

Firefox extensions aren't something worth working on any more.


> Firefox extensions aren't something worth working on any more.

Unfortunately I now totally share this sentiment, I had an extension that delayed page loads in a realistic way to test slower connections. I started on back when XUL was the way to do it but dealing with the churn led me to give up. When XUL was being deprecated I ported to the newer way but I could tell that the churn was starting to get annoying and that my enthusiasm had changed. As much as I would have liked to continue work with that extension with the recent changes I'm glad I gave up when I did.

I'd really like to see something change to make working on extensions feel like it's more worthwhile again. Do people think that things are likely to stabilize in the next few years?


The entire point of switching to WebExtensions was that things could be stabilized permanently.


Browser extensions are probably going to go away, at least in Chrome. Google needs to control ad blocking. They've never been a big thing on the Chrome side anyway. Firefox is down to 8.61% market share worldwide.

As Google removes user control, they can make Firefox go along, since they're Mozilla's biggest revenue source.


> As Google removes user control, they can make Firefox go along, since they're Mozilla's biggest revenue source.

So far, the only manners in which Google has influenced Firefox are:

- the influence of Google in standards;

- the need for Mozilla to keep improving its products to remain competitive.

So, if Google removes user control, that's actually good news for Firefox.


Let's be clear on one thing that seems to be perpetually discussed whenever there is a Firefox thread: what has lead to its declining usage.

It is not removing XUL 'power' extensions and replacing them with 'neutered' WebExtensions mechanism.

It is not choosing to closely align with Chrome in terms of UI/UX and functionality.

It is not the letting go of Brendan Eich and the newer (much criticised) management.

It is not because of Mozilla foundation highlighting a few 'social justice' issues here and there.

The decline of Firefox is because of one thing only - the enormous marketing and engineering clout of Google and their utterly ruthless, relentless, anti-competitive pushing of Chrome across Android and all their web properties and even through ads all over the world.

More specifically, it is their bundling of Chrome as the default, preset browser on the world most popular mobile operating system that really swung the tide decisively in their favour. Once ordinary users got used to Chrome on Android, they would naturally seek out the same browser on their laptops and desktops, to minimise interoperability issues and maximise familiarity.

And while pre-installing Chrome on Android (and by the way, it is pre-installed even on most laptop/desktop purchases by "helpful" OEMs - such is its viral reach) may not be strictly illegal as per anti-monopoly laws (because alternatives are 'freely' available on the default app store), the fact remains that if a program that comes with the OS is "good enough", the very vast majority of users will not bothering changing it, and thus Google managed to cripple all other browsers while still subtly side-stepping any potential lawsuits.

So the decline of Firefox is in my opinion a social/political phenomenon and nothing to do with its technical competence or extendibility vis-a-vis Chrome. It is certainly a more than competent drop-in replacement for Chrome (unlike say w3m or NetSurf), but who will bother to do the replacement in the first place, as long as Chrome continues to be "good enough" (which is does excellently) and it doesn't outrageously hurt the user base by some extraordinarily shocking screw-up (and Facebook shows, even such odious abuse will be condoned by the user base by and large when the network effects are too big).


> The decline of Firefox is because of one thing only - the enormous marketing and engineering clout of Google and their utterly ruthless, relentless, anti-competitive pushing of Chrome across Android and all their web properties and even through ads all over the world.

That probably had an effect, but I don't agree that its the single biggest factor. Before Chrome arrived, my experience in general was that Firefox had gotten slow and buggy, and when one tab crashed the whole browser went down with it. It was a once great product that had stagnated.

Compared to that, Chrome was a breath of fresh air, so me and many people I know migrated and then recommended it to friends and family. That had nothing to do with the Android version; at the time I didn't even have a smartphone, and many other tech people that migrated had iPhones. The desktop browser was simply a better product; and since at the time Google wasn't considered evil, and its Chromium base was open-source software, there was no reason not to use it.

I eventually migrated back to Firefox myself, and am currently very happy with its performance, stability, and exploration of privacy features like Container Tabs. However, it wasn't before e10s I felt I could really recommend Firefox over Chromium to anyone else.


I worked in a non-tech office where people used Firefox. At one point firefox was taking 30 seconds to load. I’d experienced this too and it seemed to be a bug in the profile manager. Nonetheless my colleagues were unimpressed.

This was before Chrome was released. And when Chrome was released it was frankly better for most users, even without extensions at the start. Yes it was heavily advertised, but it also felt faster and gave a better experience.

Now Firefox after the quantum reactor, and getting rid of XUL, upsetting plugin users, has caught up with Chrome—but they did this from what was once a leading position, and getting back those users lost seems less likely.


> I’d experienced this too and it seemed to be a bug in the profile manager.

I'd experienced this as well, and the most common fix was indeed to create a new profile and import your bookmarks/etc - but at least for me, it was totally unnecessary: All I had to do was delete history older than 6 months, and it was back to being snappy as new.


So let me get this straight:

You're saying that Google is so amazing at marketing, that they beat Apple, Microsoft and Firefox at marketing that browser, although Chrome wasn't even the default preinstalled browser on most devices? Chrome isn't the default on Windows, it's not the default on macOS, it's not the default on Linux, it's not the default even on most Android devices (Samsung Browser is, since Samsung is still handling the majority of Android market, followed by Chinese manufacturers who don't bundle Chrome at all).

That for all the efforts of Apple to push Safari as default, Microsoft to push Edge as default... Chrome had no other merits than just ONLY Google marketing which has somehow managed to beat out the default preinstalled well marketed browsers without any special additional technical merits?

You reasoning is missing something fundamental. Is it possible, and entertain the thought for a bit, that Chrome was just the better browser for a long time? Maybe?


> You're saying that Google is so amazing at marketing, that they beat Apple, Microsoft and Firefox at marketing that browser.

Google literally had a banner on their homepage prompting users to try Chrome.

E: Of course, I don't mean to say Chrome was a bad browser and won entirely through marketing. But its current market position has as much to do with Google's explosive marketing (they had billboard ads for Chrome! For a free browser!) as much as with Chrome's technical qualities.


Google spent money to market Firefox as well. Back in 2005, they'd pay $1 commission per successful install of Firefox with the Google Toolbar included. I don't recall when they cancelled that offer, but it ran for years.


For comparison, I've read estimates (I don't know whether they're correct) that the marketing budget just for launching Chrome was equivalent to two billion dollars, if you include the ad space that Google was providing for free.

That's just for the launch.

I may be forgetting things but I don't remember ever seeing launches for a free product that were so heavily marketed.


I don't know about the money they spent, but I believe thinking about it as a free product isn't the right approach. It delivers data & insights and gives them (some) control over the platform that powers their core business, much like Android gives them (some) control over the mobile platform. That's probably well worth whatever they spend on it.

With Firefox and Chrome (and Chrome forks that aren't independently developed, but mostly kept close to the source with some added functionality), they're offering all the options on the market (except Safari, but it's not an option on the global market, only on Apple), if you want a Browser, you'll use something Google-controlled, one way or another.


Yoric wasn't referring to actual money that traded hands; the 2 billion USD figure included the estimated value of being featured on google.com.

And I'm certain that Google determined that whatever they paid for it (in cash or opportunity cost or whatever) was worthwhile to them! (And today, it very much looks like they were right.)


And the competitors literally put their browsers on your device, with prominent icon and set to open every web page without having to download anything. Yet people still chose to get Chrome.

Without recognizing good things Chrome does, there cannot be a viable competitor.


How often do you see a browser icon on your desktop? Yep, it's always there in the task bar or the dock, but it's not your focus.

Now, how many times do you search for things on web? Every search page and search results page had a call to action to install Chrome. It's the only product Google advertised on their home page for years. The download was tiny (it downloaded the rest of the app in background), it did not require admin rights to install and hijacked the default browser setting.

Plus Google put aggressive ads on YouTube, in Gmail, Maps and Docs at the time. One click on a banner, you browser showed a dialog - and bam! You got Chrome.

Plus, there were bundles with Flash player, Skype, all popular antivirus freeware, etc. In 2010-2014 it was almost impossible not to have Chrome on one's computer on accident.

And many banner ads in major cities around the world. London underground was flooded with Chrome banners - something no other browser had done before or since.


And in those very early days, Chrome would put itself on your computer uninvited: Installers included it as extra recommended software, at which point it would set itself as default.


Chrome gets most of its numbers from mobile.


My friends and I stopped using Firefox after they broke our favourite XUL extensions. So did my parents. So did many, many developers I knew.

Everyone moved to using Chrome and never went back. Breaking XUL dropped Firefox adoption considerably. But folks who did this don't want to accept it.

XUL extensions gave Firefox unique power which it lost and never regained back. Firefox chopped off its powerful , special tentacles and grew flimsy, poor hands back. Firefox defanged itself.


Your favorite XUL extension broke so you "solved" that by migrating to a completely different browser which also doesn't provide the desired functionality.

Something doesn't add up.


Why do you think it doesn't add up? Before the removal you have

"usefulness of firefox" + "usefulness of extensions" > "usefulness of chrome"

after removal

"usefulness of firefox" < "usefulness of chrome"

And that's not counting disappointment/animosity towards firefox for breaking the implicit contract.

I am not arguing that this was the main issue that have caused firefox usage to drop, as according to stats on AMO, extensions never had very large usage. But i personally have stopped using firefox after this, and stopped installing it on computers of friends and coworkers, so there must have been some small effect.


> "usefulness of firefox" < "usefulness of chrome"

This was the missing hidden variable not explained in the narrative.

Firefox was previously significantly behind Chrome in the technical design, now it's getting better but there is still some lag.

And as explained in the article, this lag has been historically to a large degree caused by the extension model (need to keep backwards compatibility on a huge API surface, impossibility to introduce multi process architecture, need to always negotiate with extension devs on what can be changed and what not...).

There were two options:

1) specialize on power users with XUL extension but lag even more behind Chrome - leads quite certainly to drop of users, slide to irrelevancy and the eventual death

2) try to catch up with Chrome in technical design, but drop historical baggage, including XUL based addons - does not guarantee success but still provides at least hope

> ... and stopped installing it on computers of friends and coworkers, so there must have been some small effect.

It's sad to see people supporting monopoly this way ...


> It's sad to see people supporting monopoly this way...

The realistic way to avoid monopolies and retain free-ish markets is to actively enforce anti-trust legislation. (And in the case of social media companies: force all players of a certain size to provide federation APIs, so people can leave the service and still talk to their friends and family.)

There will always be some people that try to avoid monopolies for ideological reasons; but 90% of the population won't care, they just want things to work and move on with their lives, and capturing that segment still makes you a monopoly.


> but 90% of the population won't care, they just want things to work and move on with their lives

Yes, I meant it more specifically that people here on HN who should know and should care are actively propagating and helping a monopoly. (these people often also have disproportionate influence)


What do we get from supporting Firefox against the "monopoly" though? Chromium is as open source as Firefox, and users have as much influence on features Firefox implements as on features Chrome implements, which is zero. I would wholeheartedly support federation apis, as parent comment suggests, standardization of browser sync api, etc. But i don't see what does Firefox accomplish now about which i should care.


This is mainly about web platform standards.

When google controls the only remaining browser engine, it effectively controls web standards (or in other words, independent standard documents lose meaning since Blink is the standard).

Google is then free to push the web technologies in the direction which benefits mainly Google (think AMP) and which further tightens their grip on the web.


> specialize on power users with XUL extension but lag even more behind Chrome - leads quite certainly to drop of users, slide to irrelevancy and the eventual death

Ah yes, if you're reduced to power users your death is inevitable. Which is why Linux, of course, is a myth and does not exist.


Comparing incomparable.

Linux (as a kernel) is alive and thriving because of the server market not because of power users tweaking their bash powerlines.


It is a combination of factors, it always is. At the time of XUL removal Firefox didn't have much else going for it in terms of performance and stability, such improvements came later on around the time Quantum released, at least in my experience with it. I would very often use XUL extentions for their unmatched capabilities, one of which I fondly remember was Norwell, unparalleled anywhere else. Once XULs were gone, to me, there was nothing noteworthy about Firefox compared to other alternatives, except perhaps allegedly being more "privacy friendly". I just kept going with it as I did for more than a decade by inertia, and can see why someone would drop it for else.


> At the time of XUL removal Firefox didn't have much else going for it in terms of performance and stability, such improvements came later on around the time Quantum released

It was exactly Quantum release which took away XUL extensions.


Ah, my memory is terribly hazy then, awful mistake that also shows my bias. Anyhow, I think it is a shame capabilities, performance and security cannot coexist yet in browsers. Wish WebExtensions would get more attention to extend their APIs, surely more powerful extentions are still a significant strong point in choosing a browser.


Quantum was the big break, but XUL extensions were getting broken with greater and greater frequency leading up to it. So your memory is probably fine!

I agree that the number and power of WebExtension hooks is critical.


this makes sense, but not from a technical point of view.

our brain is hard wired to respond to negative actions much stronger than positive ones. this comes from the not conscious part of the brain and it happens because it was much important in our early history to respond to threats, than it was to respond to good things.

consider this: how often have you stopped using a bank/restaurant/whatever else because they did something bad to you? how often have you switched just because somewhere was better, but not way better? a positive action has to be much much stronger in order to compete with a negative action.


At the time, Chrome had Chrome Apps. If you recall, several XUL extension authors quit in disgust and started developing chrome apps. Google wasn't considered 'evil' at the time...

Firefox had a unique, special power which differentiated it and Mozilla chose to kill it. No wonder its browser share dropped like a stone.


Chrome Apps were in no way replacement for XUL. They could not change the behavior of the Chrome itself, they just opened their own window and did their thing there. Not really an extension, more of a separate app.

To talk on more specific terms, which XUL extension did you replace with Chrome App?


I finally ended up using alternate tools since even the replacement Chrome Apps were pale imitations of what Firefox offered. The good ones needed to use Nacl just to do basic stuff and still couldn't reach what XUL extensions natively supported.

But I changed my browser to Chrome since Firefox lost its value proposition. It had a differentiating factor of superior experience and features that it chose to deliberately abandon.


The removal of XUL extensions triggered a large outcry among developers and power users, but I don't think it was all that relevant if you look at the graph of Firefox's declining market share. That was driven far more by Chrome's increasing share.


(post author) Your remark is correct. However, as I attempt to explain in my blog entry, we didn't have a choice.


You did, though. You can just add a WE permission that gives them access to |Components|, like Mozilla's own WEs can already get when they need it.

You're choosing not to do that.


Context for readers who may not know: Components = XPCOM.

Technically, there were two choices:

- killing this off; or

- continuing to burn out add-on developers for the sake of add-ons that would progressively become impossible to port.


"Components" may have been the wrong term. I meant to say that you can give WEs access to something that lets them access the same things that JS running in the browser can. My understanding is that this is currently most easily done via XPCOM interfaces accessible from |Components|, but I wasn't trying to suggest that it needed to be done via XPCOM. Do it using whatever technology the browser itself is using.


This is what happens with WebExtensions experiments. Of course, it breaks all the time.


Since you say "we" elsewhere in this thread:

I can understand moving to web extensions, but why has nobody made a programmable way to move the toolbar around?

I mean, it cannot be completely impossible to do in a safe way: it exist in Vivaldi?


> I can understand moving to web extensions, but why has nobody made a programmable way to move the toolbar around?

That should of course be tab bar. :-/


There are many things that WebExtensions could do, if only we found the time to add the necessary APIs.

Sadly, Firefox has to race against Chromium with about 1/4 of the developers (I don't remember where I got that estimate from), so we have to focus our efforts. As you can imagine, Mozilla's comparative lack of resources (hence the recent layoffs) won't improve that.


One other thing that is missing here is that Firefox was trying (and still is) too much to be an "app store" and "sandbox" for extensions. This is not what we should be expecting of a browser, and again goes back to another point someone else made in this discussion is that Firefox is chasing "huge" marketshare instead of focusing on its core and growing organically from there.

What that metric-chasing meant is having their extension store spammed with useless extensions. I think that extension-count was a mistaken metric to chase, and no wonder they felt overwhelmed with trying to support spam-level amounts of extensions.

At it's core, I think this entire debate boils down to "who is responsible if an extension breaks the browser or some other extension". A relatively small set of "complex" or "tightly integrated" extensions that enhance and extend Firefox's behavior is a good spot to be in. Rather than what we have now where all the "interesting" browser extension points are not available to the extensions to modify and we have a metric tonne of copy-paste-similar extensions that are hard to discover.


I've never seen Mozilla promoting the number of available extensions, and I've never heard that it's a significant metric they track internally. The addons site highlights a relatively small number of popular extensions, with some categories (e.g. password managers).

The blog post describes how Firefox tried to focus on its 'core' - assuming you mean people heavily invested in XUL add-ons - for years before they eventually decided it was a road to nowhere.


I would recommend readers to skim the Wikipedia article on tying, or a similar article on the subject:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce)

A shorter article:

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tying.asp

Microsoft was convicted by the US for tying Windows and IE in the 90's, and Google was more recently convicted by the EU for tying Android and Chrome. US regulators have declined so far to do the same for the latter, although the political winds seem to be changing.


> The decline of Firefox is because of one thing only

Personally I would use Firefox if it was not slower than Chrome. I like most things about it more, but it is noticeably slower in some cases, it randomly becomes unresponsive in some cases and it consumes more system resources.

And actually when they dropped XUL I started using Firefox a lot less than before because now the extensions that kept me using Firefox were no longer available.

Maybe it is just me, but I really do think there is plenty Firefox is doing that hurts them. I really really want to like Firefox, and I really don't like chrome. But for what they are, browsers, Chrome is better than Firefox in my experience.


> More specifically, it is their bundling of Chrome as the default, preset browser on the world most popular mobile operating system that really swung the tide decisively in their favour. Once ordinary users got used to Chrome on Android, they would naturally seek out the same browser on their laptops and desktops, to minimise interoperability issues and maximise familiarity.

Most android phones I've had have shipped with a stripped down "web" browser as the default.

I use primarily Chrome on my Android phones because performance is consistent. I keep Firefox (with an add blocker) installed and use it for sites where that's needed, but it just doesn't do a good enough job to me fore regular browsing on mobile. This is the same reason I used to stick with Chrome on the desktop too, though since Firefox Quantum I've been able to cope with Firefox for regular use on the desktop.


Citation needed.

Chrome had already beat Firefox' in market share before it was even released on Android. Unless they included time-travel in that release, there's no way that influenced them overtaking Firefox before it happening.

When they released on Android, Chrome already was the biggest on Windows, having surpassed Internet Explorer as well.

Sorry, but you're either intentionally misleading people or you haven't actually looked at the timelines.


And they did aggressively market it to get to that point.

If you visited Google on Firefox or IE you would get a banner suggesting you to try Chrome.

It was bundled with all sorts of software, including Flash which would install it by default unless you found the right checkbox. (Many non-technical people I know ended up unintentionally installing it this way)

They even had offline (real-world) advertising for it.

I'm sure word of mouth had an effect, but it was only a small part of why it succeeded. Remember that Firefox only ever achieved a fraction of Chrome's (current) market share, and relied mostly on word of mouth (though they did have the occasional real-world ad campaign), despite its superiority to IE.


> If you visited Google on Firefox or IE you would get a banner suggesting you to try Chrome.

Let’s not understate this, as I remember it clearly.

As a Firefox user, using any Google-product on the web, I was constantly badgered to “upgrade” my browser.

That’s right: Google lied and told Firefox-users that they were downloading upgrades to their Firefox installations.

Completely inexcusable, fraudulent behaviour. Combined with the bu sling and drive-by-installers Google paid for, me and lots of my technical friends still consider Chrome genuine malware for this reason.


Sure, and as I mentioned elsewhere: before they had Chrome, they aggressively marketed Firefox, paying referral commissions for every Firefox install that included their toolbar. That was in 2005/2006 and ran for years, and was a large part why Firefox became successful: websites got paid to recommend it to their users.

Marketing is a large part of everything, I agree. But the argument I replied to was that it was the monopoly & bundling that made it successful. That's obviously completely false and pure propaganda, trying to absolve Firefox of anything and everything, essentially saying "none of those things matter, it was only Google's evil behavior".

> I'm sure word of mouth had an effect, but it was only a small part of why it succeeded.

I'm not so sure. Internet Explorer as "the perfect tool to download Chrome" wasn't a meme because people watched ads, but because Chrome (on Windows) was easy to download & install and fast & stable. Firefox wasn't any of that in comparison, that's why lots of people I know switched to Chrome back then.

And once you've gotten used to something, you really need a reason to switch back - something that Firefox never provided. Privacy might become that, but Chrome with plugins isn't terrible either, and Firefox sent data to Google for analytics "out of the box" as well (and probably still does?).

I understand that it's nice to have a boogeyman that can be blamed, but I don't think that's accurate. Firefox lost because of Mozilla, not because of Google.


I was with you for the first 5 lines - it's not because of any of those reasons.

But listen to the Firefox developer in the article - Chrome was making a better product because they weren't tied down with backwards compatibility issues. It was genuinely faster, more secure and they were shipping features quicker. Meanwhile Firefox wasted years attempting and failing to become multiprocess because they were tied down with the legacy of XUL.

But you have to give Chrome credit for making a good product. No doubt marketing helped, bundling with Android helped. But for a solid 5-7 years, it was clearly the best. And I say that as someone who has used Firefox for a decade.


There was definitely a time we're Firefox had performance issue.

I don't speak of those benchmark milliseconds things.The entire browsers was so slow scrolling was a problem and more and more time the entire OS (Mac os) freezes for 10 seconds or so.

That's where I left and years later why coming back if it doesn't have any more interesting features than chrome.


> I don't speak of those benchmark milliseconds things.The entire browsers was so slow scrolling was a problem and more and more time the entire OS (Mac os) freezes for 10 seconds or so.

Could it have been every 15 seconds?

I think I was part of the team that fixed that bug :)


Phoenix user from day 1 here, then Firefox. Had never the need to abandon it due to slow performance.


Hmm. In the beginning on Andorid, there was nothing called chrome. Only a primative, webkit based browser usually called "internet" that OEMs would customize. Other browsers have always worked fine on Android - from Dolphin to yes... Firefox. I'd say that Firefox on Android wasn't suitable for daily use until sometime in 2019... and there's still a lot of work to do.

Chrome on Android is a miserable experience right now because someone at Google thinks that hiding URLS and making it difficult to edit them is a feature.


New Firefox on Android is bad as well. It takes me more time to open new web page.

I also hate the bottom focused layout.


The user experience of Chrome is just better for non-geek users. This makes a big difference although geeks have a hard time accepting that this should matter.


> The decline of Firefox is because of one thing only - the enormous marketing and engineering clout of Google and their utterly ruthless, relentless, anti-competitive pushing of Chrome across Android and all their web properties and even through ads all over the world.

OK, so your answer is that world is super simple and comes down to a single variable explaining everything? Sorry but that does not sound very convincing to say the least.

There was a time where Firefox needed to be installed manually on Windows where IE was provided by default and it become the leading browser. Ask yourself why it's not the case anymore.


Tabs. IE6 did not have tabs, Firefox did. It really is that simple. Opera had tabs but it also had ads. No other browser was from a trusted source.

Chrome is good enough and from a trusted source.


IE7 also had tabs, yet Firefox still managed to gain marketshare.


Internet Explorer was an absolutely awful browser, in a time where word of mouth was enough to get people to change.

Google plastered Chrome ads everywhere to get on everyone's mind, and was good enough that you didn't need changing.


You forgot the tiny, not so important fact that Google Chrome was overall better than Firefox in responsiveness, speed and rendering for YEARS.


>The decline of Firefox is because of one thing only - the enormous marketing and engineering clout of Google and their utterly ruthless, relentless, anti-competitive pushing of Chrome across Android and all their web properties and even through ads all over the world.

The other factors contributed though.


While you are correct that the Google's marketing power is a leading factor in the decline of market share by firefox

The other items on your list, when you proclaim not to be a factor, were and are a factor as well. A significant facto in my opinion.

While google has a marketing and monetary edge, FireFox can not stop shooting itself in the foot either.


I went so Safari as my default browser when Firefox (which I was using from Phoenix 0.3 irrc) became slow and bloated. Chrome and Google marketing had nothing to do with it.


You're certainly right but it also didn't help that Firefox for Andorid was _really_ bad for a long time. Fenix is a glimpse of hope but it came to late.


Is it?

I had Huawei and Xiaomi phones and until 3 years ago they didn't even come with Google apps by default.


What browser did they ship with?


At least the Xiaomi device came with "Mi Browser"


Me and everyone I know stopped using when they removed XUL extensions, that may not be representative of the general populace but losing the mindshare of power users could not have helped them. For a decade when non technical users asked me what browser to use I told them Firefox, that stopped then they abandoned powerful extensions.


Amen.


Google's anti-competitiveness is easily the biggest reason Firefox doesn't have a majority market share. I would argue, however, that several of those things are the reasons Firefox can't hold onto a minority share either. Sure XUL, themes, tabs on bottom, etc were never going to keep Firefox on top but they might have been enough to hold onto 10%.

Google is evil so I still use Firefox, but it just feels like Chrome without Google. The evangelizing passion I had for it ever since version 1.5 is dead and Mozilla killed it.


This feels analogous to videogame modding. You either let/don't prevent the modders from messing with the very core of the game, which brings total overhaulability but also total vulnerability and jankiness; or you give them a nice modding API that, depending on how much effort you put into it might be rather powerful, safe and and convenient but IMO is fundamentally crippled in comparison to the former approach, it's as if you have to imagine all the ways people might want to mod your game beforehand.

Also, I have this bad taste in my mouth from Mozilla getting all that Google money just hours after sacking their developers, like it was a condition.


Afaict, all the best modding APIs are made by dogfooding them internally as much as possible, such as for scripting.


Third option: You give them a nice modding API and let them access the core of the game. That way you gain the benefits of a modding API without restricting modders' creativity.


Only a third option if you don't care about all the problems the article tells us about. Full access by third party developers and being able to update code are simply at odds with each other. There's no way around it.


That is simply not true.


How so?


Allowing addon developers to access private APIs simply doesn't prevent Mozilla from changing them, or anything else. An unstable API is much better than none at all.


It's a good article, but in my experience explaining this stuff over and over again in HN and other fora, people don't actually want to know. They have their narrative and they're sticking to it.


> They have their narrative and they're sticking to it.

That's exactly how reading Mozilla apologetics comes across. I'd say pre-registration could help sift out the bullshit from the well-founded predictions, but there's seemingly no way to get Firefoxers to deviate from their narrative, and the proof would come at a time that's too late to act on, anyway.

For all the retrospectives that exist about Jobs's ability to captivate, Mozilla folks have a self-perpetuating echo chamber/reality distortion field of their own—except the only thing it's good for is a thousand self-inflicted wounds and a smug sense of persecution. Terrible combo.


In my honest opinion retrospectives like these are generally useful, even when the audience may have an opposite and/or charged recollection


I'm hoping it will be valuable to use as a link to point people to. Right now, it's more effort than it's worth to rehash bits and pieces of the argument. I'm bookmarking it for future use.


just ftr here's one person that found the article quite enlightening


My issue is simply that I want an extension mechanism which I can use to do anything to my browser. For me, 'extension security' means 'I must write C++ to add the functionality I want,' and I never, never want to write C++.


What prevents you from writing a patch for Firefox then? After all, it is one of the great advantages of FOSS. At this level of power you'd likely have to change the addon every upgrade anyways.


> What prevents you from writing a patch for Firefox then?

'I never, never want to write C++.'

Seriously, I can't say how much I want not to write C or C++. Life is too short to use unsafe languages.


because what you are purposing is fork a browser which is only slightly less complicated than fork operating system and involves a major investment in time/money to maintain.


To whatever extent, there have been forks that are still alive today that support XUL extensions. Pale Moon [1] is one of them.

[1]: https://www.palemoon.org/


So would an extension with that kind of power. FWIW, extensions as they are already do require quite a bit of maintenance, and it is also reasonable unlikely that any one source file would be modified in one given update.


I've wanted something more like Emacs for the web -- a bunch of fast primitives and hooks everywhere, with a good-enough language to allow me to modify everything about the browser as I see fit, without having to drop down into the C++ hex mines.


I think this is the honest answer. The people upset simply don't want a browser with measurable market share. In the Stack overflow survey Emacs has a market share of <5%. Non programmers have never heard of Emacs. If Firefox was targeting these users there would be no Firefox...


Right. My old boss at Apple used to encourage me to rant about how our products should work, and then shake his head and with a Gallic chuckle say, "we'd go broke if we made products for you".


If the web wasn't so overly complicated a niche browser like that would be viable.


That's exactly what I want: an Emacs for the web. Or enough web-browsing capability built into Emacs to just browse every site in Emacs.

Seriously, though, I want the software I run to obey me, not someone else: not Microsoft, not Apple, not some government on the other side of the world — and not Mozilla. I want to be able to modify its functionality in a straightforward manner, in a reasonably-sane garbage-collected language (so, not C, not C++, not Java and not JavaScript).

I would like to be able to add pull data from sites I visit and plumb it through the rest of my system using something like Plan 9's plumber. I don't want a browser which says, 'sorry, I won't trust you to choose the extensions you like.'


There are still some forks of firefox around, you can use those. I'm glad they traded out some configurability for security and multiprocess browser. I'm sure they would accept any patches from you that allowed the old configurability with the current performance, stability and security.


So, install Firefox 56, or 52 ESR, and never update it. Or run PaleMoon or one of its relatives, I suppose; that community's doing what it can to preserve archives of XUL-based extensions and API documentation.


Have you checked Chromium Embedded Framework?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_Embedded_Framework

There are bindings for several languages, no need to write C++.


I was pissed off and left Firefox for Chrome not because they removed XUL add one, but because they didn’t have a good replacement.

Chrome extensions are ugly and have no unified design. They are glorified web pages in a floating window.

I liked XUL because it provided a framework for extension authors and extensions felt like part of Firefox.

I eventually returned to Firefox and I find the extensions to be not so terrible.


This may be an unpopular opinion: I'm very grateful for all browsers to switch to WebExtensions. To me, for the web to win as a platform, standards are a must.

I'm a new WebExtension indie dev. I just launched my first extension on the Chrome, Firefox, Edge stores. Opera is in review. Safari 14 took 15 minutes and 1 commend, just waiting for it to drop. I couldn't have shipped this quickly by myself if not for the WebExtensions standard. It leaves me time to focus on building what users want and telling users about what I built. Yes I did have to settle for less developer power and control. I'm totally ok with it.

Feel free to AMA!

[0] https://twitter.com/rayshan/status/1292270249362956288


>To me, for the web to win as a platform, standards are a must.

What does that mean exactly? What are the other platforms that the web is competing against?


iOS and Android native apps with their walled gardens.


Hmm. As a crotchety old man (well, I'm 32, but still), I hadn't even considered mobile. I was thinking Windows/macOS/Linux native apps as the probable alternatives.

In either case though, I think this is just one more reason to hate Web Extensions. I don't want browsers to win over native applications. (Of course "applications" that are little more than a bundled browser are even worse, whether on mobile or desktop.)


@ebruchez is right. Also by win, I really mean to compete head-to-head with the native platforms. I love a good native app as much as anyone. The recent Epic vs. Apple fight shows that we need more open alternatives like the web platform. Ones that are free to develop for and free to distribute. I'm looking at you Apple, charging me $99 for a developer account just to distribute a Safari 14 web extension in the app store.


Funny seeing this here, I just switched to Vivaldi yesterday because of this.

I really wanted to use mouse gestures and Vim-like controls again, and the WebExtension version of those addons is not nearly reliable enough.

The problem seems to be that those control extensions can only work by injecting Javascript into webpages, which (1) takes a moment to work when the page is loading, and (2) doesn't work in New Tab page. The effect is that even basic shortcuts like "next tab" fail to work often enough that I'm willing to switch browsers.


Thanks for the article, it provides very good insights.

In the article, there are a couple of passes that mention “benchmarks” where Firefox was faster than Chrome. It sounds like those benchmarks, albeit I assume they were correct, were actually providing a distorted reality of what “fast” actually means, because I distinctly remember people (including myself) switching to Chrome in early days because it was simply objectively faster. It sounds like the existence of those benchmarks have had a net negative on Firefox: it provided a false confidence that the browser was “fast”, and possibly delayed the refactorings that eventually managed to really speed up Firefox again.

You mention that Chrome used “UX tricks” but I assume what this means is that Chrome developers were actually driven by more correct benchmarks: the ones that actually translate to a better experience for the end user.

Since I’m always intrigued by the topic of false benchmarking and how complex it is to do correct benchmarks that don’t fall into traps, I’d love to hear what those benchmarks you mention were measuring, and if you agree that they gave a false assurance to the Firefox team.


To summarize, we were benchmarking for throughput: how long between the time you click and the time the operation terminates. For a long time, we absolutely crushed Chrome on most of these benchmarks. Firefox started faster, loaded pages faster, switched between tabs faster, JavaScript executed faster, downloads were faster, ...

Chrome developers were benchmarking for responsiveness: how long between the time you click and the user interface shows that something is going on. And that's all that end users actually see. Chrome showed its initial window faster (although it took more time until you could actually do anything with it), was slower at loading pages (but stopped its throbber earlier), slower at switching tabs (but the screen changed faster to show you that it was switching tabs), ...

Which ones were the "correct benchmarks" remains an open question, but it's clear which ones the users perceive/remember as being faster!

Of course, the better architecture that Chrome used meant that they eventually got faster at throughput, too, on computers that had sufficient RAM.


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