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It's not though. No one is forcing you or anyone else to sign up for credit cards - it's a choice, unlike taxation.





It's not optional, though.

I still have to pay the higher transaction costs even without a credit card, because the credit card companies require that vendors have the same prices for card or cash, resulting in higher prices for everyone.


I've seen stores (e.g. electronic stores) offer reduced prices when paying in cash vs. credit card. Is this law only in the US?

Reduced prices for cash used to be against the Visa/MC merchant terms. They lost a lawsuit over it, but it's fairly ingrained by now.

You'll see cash discounts at some gas stations, and the occasional small coffee shop or takeout place will have a $10 minimum, but otherwise it's gonna be the same price most places.


Seems like an opportunity to raise awareness for this information then.

Will you go to jail or pay a fine if you don't use a credit card? No?

Then it's nothing like taxation and it is optional.


Think of sales tax. You have the option of paying it or not buying things; it's not optional.

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Work on your reading comprehension...

The card companies charge merchants for transactions. The merchants raise their prices to cover those transaction costs: For a very long time (and still, in a few places) it was against the card company's terms of service to have a card usage surcharge. A very few places now have 'cash discounts' or don't accept cards at all, but these are by far the exception. As a result, /everyone/ ends up paying for credit card rewards, even those who don't use credit cards.


How would you pay for things online, many of which are not available in person? Or stores/airplanes/services that don't accept cash?

Debit cards? The other option is to use a Credit Card but pay off at the end of the month. Why is that so difficult? That’s literally like a Debit card except for the additional “buffer” of safety and security from your bank account.

Every debit card I've had has still involved a credit card company in some way - they've all had the visa logo on them.

That's true, I am not too familiar with the finance system, how come a debit card needs a middle man such as VISA? They help with the transaction between two banks?

The situation is that there is a network called Visa Debit that some banks use for their network for debit transactions. It may seem new, but it evidently dates back as far as 1982.

I'm in Canada. With one exception, no bank client card I have had (which were all usable for debit) had any Visa logo on it. That includes current ones.

The exception is one TD client card.

The situation is explained here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Debit#Canada

TD is one of the banks that offer Visa Debit. This TD client card is also Interac-branded, so I'm guessing that the card will use the Interac network for domestic transactions, and in that case its Visa Debit personality does not come into play.

Those are not the only two networks for debit/ATM in Canada. There is also "The Exchange":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accel_(interbank_network)#The_...

(used by a lot of smaller banks and credit unions).

The Canadian Credit Union Association also runs an ATM network called AccuLink.

It's important to know which network your card uses if you want "ding free" transactions. E.g a "The Exchange" card can be used at an "Interac" ATM, but there will be a fee.


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That doesn't make it any less of a duopoly. The whole point of the article is that visa/mc have too much power and there is a lot of systemic risk by having only two competitors in this industry in particular.

Even if they aren't extending credit they're still facilitating the transaction - it's not like the visa sticker is on there for marketing purposes


Not what we're talking about in the OP comment.

That's what I was talking about - even if they aren't charging fees, they're involved.

There's plenty of cases in technology where "but we don't do anything with your data!" is not a good enough excuse. Many of us still argue for decentralization or federation or user controlled data, etc. Similar concerns I have for visa.


I get the impression you don't think much of me. That's ok, but why did you feel the need to tell me?

alt_f4 is a troll. I don't think they understand what we're arguing about lol

your mum is a troll

I can't think of a bank that doesn't use a card that works as a credit card when it comes to online transactions.

They're still visa or MasterCards though...

> Visa does not issue cards, extend credit or set rates and fees for consumers; rather, Visa provides financial institutions with Visa-branded payment products that they then use to offer credit, debit, prepaid and cash-access programs to their customers.

Everyone in Europe uses debit cards. You don't have debit cards in the US?

It's a plastic card, it is issued by your bank, it's still using the visa/mastercard network, but instead of credit, it is tied to actual funds in your bank account.


> "No one is forcing you or anyone else to sign up for credit cards - it's a choice, unlike taxation."

Tell that to the increasing number of shops that no longer accept cash.


Is this really a thing outside of SF? I haven't seen any cashless stores in my city yet. In fact, 3 of my favorite restaurants are still cash-only.

Strange, about 2y ago, on our visit, there were lots of places in SanFrancisco who didn't accept cards.

you can't rent a car without credit card, they won't accept debit card or even debit VISA/MASTERCARD, it has to be full on credit card

I don't know anyone personally that owns a "credit" card. Virtually nobody uses them here in France and I think in the rest of Europe, it's always debit card. Never had an issue with renting cars.

It is a common issue for French people renting cars outside of France - search on Google, there are hundreds of angry people who ended up with no car because agencies in other countries refuse debit cards (debit immediat)

Why would renting agencies refuse debit cards? You get your money, just like credit cards...

My guess would be single message (debit) vs dual message systems. They probably want to hold / authorize a large amount first as insurance.

What's strange is that you can authorise on debit cards (at least french ones)...

I should have been more specific, In the past few years I have rented cars in Europe, in the US, in South Africa and in Australia. Never had an issue. I generally use Avis or Budget, sometimes a local company.

That's not true at all. It's certainly not common to require credit cards for car rentals in Europe. Must be an American thing.

>Virtually nobody uses them here in France and I think in the rest of Europe,

Definitely not the case here in the UK, credit cards are very common.


Other than renting a car or a hotel room, it seems you can conduct most if not all of your affairs without a credit card. Credit cards can be relegated to those limited transactions.

Most of the large car rental companies in the US will let you rent with a deposit on a debit card.



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