The word "REPEAT" should not be used in place of "SAY AGAIN",
especially in the vicinity of naval or other firing ranges,
as "REPEAT" is an artillery proword defined in ACP 125 U.S.
Supp-2(A) with the wholly different meaning of "request for the
same volume of fire to be fired again with or without corrections
or changes" (e.g., at the same coordinates as the previous round).
Not like gaming is comparable to real combat, but a hundred milliseconds is a lot in life & death situations.
Whereas "REPEAT" might not involve the time luxury.
Minimizing the risk of a mistake and coordinating fire between units is more important in naval warfare than reaction time. In Anti Air Warfare it is different.
However it is unlikely to occur in practice - the artillery battery will (generally) be on a separate radio net, and the proword will only be applicable if you're in an active fire mission - though it's good to be safe. My wife still gets frustrated with my use of SAY AGAIN.
When you get a good sig on each end, the speed of fire mission comms is a thing of beauty - and once the mission is opened both ends will drop all callsigns.
Yes, the fire mission (FM) will be opened by the FO (Forward Observer), and then they'll drop the callsigns - so something like this:
2 this is 21, fire mission battery, over.
21 this is 2, fire mission battery, out.
# from here they will go to abbreviated callsigns, so just stating theirs (it has been a while since I've done the FO's sequence of orders so it may be out a bit :)).
21, grid 12345678, range 1000, bearing 3759, over.
# and now they drop them completely so 2 will respond with the readback:
grid 12345678, range 1000, bearing 3759, out.
The "repeat" vs "say again" distinction is so ingrained that I've been out of the military for a decade and I still always, only say "say again." I don't do it on purpose, it's just part of me now.
See eg https://www.angmohdan.com/origins-of-gostan/ (and also http://www.mysmu.edu/faculty/jacklee/singlish_G.htm)
I lament that most people speaking to an ang moh like me code-switch to the Queen's English instead of sticking to proper Singlish.
I often use say again, but I use it because of of Limoncelly and Hogans book, "the Practice of Systems and Networks Administration" where they (or someone they refer to) suggest it works better in noisy environments.
I guess they have worked with someone with experience from the army..?
The story I was told behind the origin of these was that they evolved from British <-> French air traffic and was a reasonably logical thing that everybody agreed on and could pronounce intelligibly for the other party.
Edit to add: English is the official international language for naval/aviation communication. Having really important words in another language makes them stand out and hard to say by mistake.
I think these particular words are older than many of the other ones. Also French-derived is CQ, which comes from the French sécurité. These phrases date back to when French was used much more as an international language.
I am of the belief that all adults should memorize this list (including pronunciation, they are slightly different than the normal words).
It’s not onerous and can be done in a few minutes, and if nothing else will save you from sounding like a fool when spelling things over the phone (“a like apple, c like cat”). They are standard for a reason.
So mega/giga would be undesirable as they sound similar, and beceause many people pronounce giga as "jigga". And "Ten" is just terrible, what is someone is reading out an alphanumeric string?
Do they? I do, because it is the correct pronunciation (the hard G only became prevalent after hard drives grew to GB sizes and Americans unfamiliar with the French system of units mispronounced the prefix), but I am literally the only one I have ever heard use it in person, and the only other instance I have heard it pronounced correctly is by Christopher Lloyd as Doc Brown in Back to the Future.
Why do I persist when everyone around me pronounces it incorrectly? Indeed, if everyone else pronounces a word a different way, are they right and am I wrong? I guess I just like tilting at windmills, I guess!
Also GIF has a soft g …
... or how we pronounce "gamma", for that matter.
Not just that, but to sound dissimilar to each other in all sorts of accents and regional dialects.
The particular choice of words wasn't even my point, and of course I get the dissimilarity thing. If "Ten" bothers you then just choose "Tom" or whatever. I know I've never seen anyone say jigga instead of giga, but if you have, then just pick another word. My point was about having a common theme to help make the list intuitive, not that "Ten" and "Mega" are inherently better than "Tango" or "Mike".
You could probably develop an easier-to-comprehend list for everyday use, although I’m not persuaded by your complaints that the existing list isn’t suitable.
I'd say at least half the time when I use it talking to some call centre employee I lose them about two letters in to whatever I'm trying to spell.
That said, if there was a great replacement that would probably be in use instead. It's not just a list of words that happen to start with those letters, it's a list of words that do not sound similar to each other, are unambiguous as to what letter they represent, and maintain those qualities in a wide variety of accents and dialects.
I also tend to forget letters, leading to something like "bravo uniform xylophone"
That used to happen to me too, then I studied it more, and would periodically spell words in my head using it until I recognized which letters I'd forget (kilo, lima, mike, november), then studied those some more.
Total time spent memorizing it fully probably sums to less than an hour over a couple years.
So then you don't actually know the alphabet. Knowing implies you know all the letters and can recall them at will at any point in time, - that's what makes it useful. Of course if your forget some letters, that will just make the whole thing more cumbersome than just using letters.
Let's say you're talking with someone who doesn't have a distinct V or W in their native tongue. Victor pronounced Wictor and Whisky pronounced Visky are sufficiently different from each other.
If you're making it up on the fly you could easily pick a word that could be confused for another. Vine/wine, while/vial, etc.
The same goes for F/S across links that can't support the higher frequencies and L/R in some Asian languages.
It's also worse because if you have two speakers who are familiar with the use of a phonetic alphabet, you don't have to do “‘a' is in...”, you just spell out “Alpha Romeo Tango India Sierra Tango” (no, I have no idea why I picked that word for an example.)
For example, Charlie (pronounced char-lee or shar-lee) could be confused with barley, Karlie, hardly, Shirley, etc. Mike rhymes with dozens of words.
If you don't know the word 'sierra' you might be wondering, "was that fierra? Ciara? Tiara?"
I think using longer, simple words like,
Alphabet, Banana, Computer, Direction, Elephant, etc.
would be better for lay people. They're unambiguous and well-known.
The beauty of the phonetic alphabet is that there's nothing else on the phonetic alphabet that can be confused with "Charlie" regardless of how a non-English speaker pronounces it. If everyone is using the same phonetic alphabet, then the confused entity learns that "Sharlie/Shirley/hardly" stands in for "C."
And ‘port’ replaced ‘larboard’ in the 19th century to avoid confusion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_and_starboard
I've legitimately had that with phone operators. Just a couple of weeks ago I had a CSR spell out "D for Doris" over an atrocious phone line.
If only there were some kind of standard of which names to give for which letter, eh?
And it gets worse!
edit: and also how/why it took them so long to resolve the apparent misunderstanding at some point, where the Russian crew on the ISS seemed to believe they were being called out by the ground crew.
In the early 1960s there was a TV series, Combat!, about a WWII U.S. Army infantry squad in France; Vic Morrow, playing Sgt. Saunders, would often say, e.g., "Checkmate King 2, this is White Rook, over." (Weird that I remember that, almost 60 years on ....)
K1QT calling CQ CQ
K1QT calling K1HTL
However, especially on other modes and even with phone in most cases, the standard is "<call> <call>". This is more or less derived from morse operating practice where the prosign "DE" means "this is" or "from," and the typical way of calling another station was "<call> DE <call>" (or perhaps "<call> DE <call> GA"). Naturally the DE was dropped in many cases and it became just the two calls in sequence with an implied DE.
There is actually no regulatory requirement to state call sign at the beginning of a conversation, although it's standard to because, well, it's nice to know who you're talking to. FCC regulations do require each party to state their call sign at the end of a conversation, usually as "<call> SK" in the case of morse or "<call> clear" in the case of phone, although I'd say use of the "clear" proword is somewhat more variable. I've always had a certain dislike for "we'll be clear" as this is a bit confusing to newcomers, less so than "clear on your final" although that seems more formal.
I assume that, like most radio conventions, this originated in naval use, as the convention is the same in at least aviation and public safety.
The idea being whoever's on the other end is not actively listening until they hear their own call sign. If you say your own call sign first, you're just going to create confusion because all they're going to actually pick up is that they were called and have to "Person calling <X> come again..."
W1AW this is W3DZZ
CQ CQ this is W1AW
in amateur radio.
As to the hardline related communications, I'm trying to find a good point in the recording. For now I managed to find the eventual successful contact attempt here: https://youtu.be/zNklfC6jgBs?t=10746; I'll try to rewind and find esp. the earlier Endeavour responses & the Russian responses.
edit: Ok, here's some early fun with Russians: https://youtu.be/zNklfC6jgBs?t=6085, not yet sure if that's the 1st one but definitively a sample of what I meant. Still looking for more. edit 2: A bit more just seconds later: https://youtu.be/zNklfC6jgBs?t=6616
> Contrary to popular belief, "OVER" and "OUT" are never used at the same time, since their meanings are mutually exclusive.
I guess the question here is why is it a popcultural phrase?
"good readback" to confirm that the other side has correctly readback the information just sent
"go for ..." you have approval to...
but more often speaking relatively normally: they were having some problems with the hardline, at one point Dragon saying:
"that was an improvement but, uh, completely unreadable"
The obsolete TELNET protocol ( https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc854 ) has DO/DONT/WILL/WONT which match up nicely.
These don't seem to be described in the article. Did I miss something? Does anyone have a similar description for these?
Fun fact, the donkey that was the model for Donkey in Shrek was named Niner, and lived in Palo Alto.
I assume you mean 'fife' and? Also not just from aviation, general (military) radio, and other uses of the NATO phonetic alphabet.
It used to be fi-ive (rhyming 'I seive') but changed, I believe/as I recall, due to sounding too close to 'fire'.