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WordPress names their 3.1 release: Reinhardt (wordpress.org)
163 points by yahelc on Feb 23, 2011 | hide | past | web | favorite | 106 comments



Hey guys -- for the past 7 years we've named every release after a jazz musician, as you can see here:

http://wordpress.org/about/roadmap/

Usually no one notices, and the codename isn't even in the tweets or announcement email, just a sentence that clearly links to the jazz musician's Wikipedia page. (It's not like Ubuntu codenames that are widely used.) We also put a fun plug for djangoproject.org to the end of the "future" section, which hopefully will also introduce some new people to their project. I haven't seen anyone tweeting the codename except to complain, so I don't think this is going to confuse anybody think we're rewriting in Python. (However much they may want that.)

That said, apologies for the unintended controversy. In hindsight, we probably should have used "Reinhardt" to have the same effect of honoring one of our favorite musicians without anyone getting confused with a fellow Open Source project.

Now to work on 3.2 Sinatra! (Kidding, Ruby folks.)


Hi Matt --

I know this really isn't a big deal, and I really don't want to be a dick about it, but in this age of Google I would really appreciate it if you'd change the name. I think if we codenamed Django 1.3 "Wordpress" you'd feel similarly, right? I really don't want this to turn into A Thing, so how about you just see this as a small favor for a fellow open source hacker and I owe you beer/whiskey/whatever?

Please feel free to get in touch personally if you want to talk further - I'm jacob@jacobian.org.

(I'm Jacob Kaplan-Moss, one of the lead Django devs.)


Am I the only one that finds it ludicrous that people are complaining about this? what exactly are the consequences of this that'll cripple everything?


> what exactly are the consequences of this that'll cripple everything

More noise in web searches?


You think this is bad, you should have been here for the Firebird fiasco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Firefox#Early_Versions


You mean Phoenix? I mean Firebird? No I mean Firefox!


Oh, I remember why Phoenix got bumped as well. I started using it on the first release 0.1!

But don't forget, after Firebird, it was going to be called "Mozilla Firebird".

Oh, fun times!


Django is trademarked.


But "Reinhardt" is not, and that is what matters.


As somebody who is a huge fan of the Quintette du Hot Club de France and a major Django Reinhardt fanatic, I was wondering if you'd both mind renaming your projects to something else and stop polluting my Gypsy Jazz searches. Just kidding. But seriously though.... (tongue firmly planted in cheek :-)


-python

:)


> if we codenamed Django 1.3 "Wordpress"

Can I just say that I, for one, would find that awesome? :)


it would be the first secure version of wordpress released


I cannot believe I am defending WordPress but wow people, it's just a release codename to make it more human and less of "just a number".

How many people know/remember the Windows release codenames or any other product for that matter?

It's not like its "WordPress Reinhardt" or even a product name.

Reinhardt is also a common name.


It's silly stuff like this that keeps me away from Django. The members of its community are too easily offended.

Wordpress names its releases after the last names of famous Jazz musicians. They apparently have done this for the past 7 releases. Nobody knew, nobody cared. We all just called it "Wordpress".

The only people who will call this release "Reinhardt" are the uber-techies who actually care about version names. Everyone else will just call it WordPress like they always have.

You guys are named "Django". Nobody is going to confuse you with WordPress. The uber-techies know better, and nobody else cares.


And just updated the post to change the codename to "Reinhardt," just as a sign of good faith and before anyone else gets the wrong idea.


Dispute resolved - in under an hour, to the satisfaction of both parties. And not once were the lawyers called.

This is one of the major secondary benefits of OSS in action.


Well, I think this is one of the strengths of modern companies with modern PR.


Your username made the comments on this so much better.


Please do not start with this. Look at what has become with Reddit's "novelty accounts" making thematic comments that do rarely add to the topic but rather distract from them.


Awesome - I appreciate it a lot. Thanks!


Great to hear. :)

"Django" is actually trademarked by The World Company Incorporation: http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4007:a1...

IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: DOWNLOADABLE OPEN SOURCE COMPUTER SOFTWARE FOR USE IN CONNECTION WITH INTERNET PUBLISHING AND WEBSITE DEVELOPMENT. FIRST USE: 20050719. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20050719


Yes, but the trademark now belongs to the Django Software Foundation -- when the DSF was established, the company transferred all the IP to the Foundation.


Changing the name to Reinhardt is not just a good idea ... it's the law! ;-)


And after a cease and desist letter, WordPress changes their release name to "BHP" for "Butt-Head Programmers". The Django Project sues WordPress for libel, but the court grants a motion to dismiss, stating that "One does not seriously attack the expertise of a programmer using the undefined phrase 'butt-head'".

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan


Hehe good association. A hilarious code name fiasco from Apple's PowerPC rollout. Parent is making a good-natured funny, folks.


It is actually a remarkably relevant comment of how this could have gone down, plus I learned something new about BHA that I didn't know. I, for one, upvoted.


Hurrah. Let sanity prevail. This is good for everyone.


You're a gentleman, sir.


Hooray for World Peace!


Good. I thought we were merging.


Hi Matt --

I know this really isn't a big deal, and I really don't want to be a dick about it, but I've been known as Reinhardt in HN for 169 days now and I would really appreciate it if you'd change the name. I think if I changed my nick to "photomattt" you'd feel similarly, right? I really don't want this to turn into A Thing, so how about you just see this as a small favor for a fellow HNer and I owe you beer/whiskey/whatever?

Please feel free to get in touch personally if you want to talk further - I'm reinhardt@reinhardtian.org.

(I'm Reinhardt, one of the lead HN lurkers.)


I've already hinted at this kind of thing over in the related thread on Convore [https://convore.com/django-community/wordpress-release-31-co...]. I don't think you intended any controversy, but I think it would be in bad taste to keep the name, given how it could lead to confusion both in Google search results, but more importantly how it will affect communication between clients/developers.


We'll see you back here in a few months to determine whether 3.2 should be called "Ole Blue Eyes" or just... "Frank".


What, no "Legend of the Galactic Heroes?"


They might want to check the footer of djangoproject.com ahem. "Django is a registered trademark of the Django Software Foundation.", pretty sure this infringes.


Well, I guess their lawyers will have some work to do.


How about someone sends a polite but firm email before calling a lawyer?


Orrr... they could just deal with it, because it's just a version codename and it's not like people are going to start calling WordPress, "Django".

This shouldn't be a big deal, it's two OSS projects.


On the other hand, names are meant to be used, otherwise why have one at all. So there would have been people referring to the Django release of WordPress - at least for a while. That would be very confusing.


http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2061877

"The obvious answer is to rewrite WordPress with Django"

Done.


Ease of installation is one of the biggest SOP of WordPress. I am sure anything written in Py would not have that level of ease for common developers, at least for a few years to come and it become more tough in shared hosting environment.


Au contraire - it is the implementation details (create database tables for you? handle install exceptions gracefully? blablablabla) and not the platform (in the case of PHP/Python/Ruby/Perl from personal experience) that makes installation "easy". There are a large set of shared hosts that boast Python and Ruby support - fact of the matter is, WordPress exists and it was written in PHP and nobody from the other language camps has cared to do anything like it in x language.

No need to go sowing seed like this!


The platform does make a difference in this case. With the way PHP is set up on most servers, you can have static files and dynamic files (PHP files) in the same folder (although you'd probably separate them into subfolders). This makes everything easier installation-wise.

I'm a big fan of Django, but you'd have to admit that Django's "one virtual host for Python, another for static files" would over-complicate installation. Even on a made-for-Django host like WebFaction it would still be easier to install PHP-WordPress than Django-WordPress.


I still disagree. I don't use Django so I actually don't know what you have to go through in order to install it but a python app can be packaged and installed on a shared host with mod_wsgi installed. All you need is an index.wsgi to act as your front controller.

Setting that up? You just have to install a python egg in the app directory and you should be good to go.

Like I said, it's implementation details - a python application could be made easy-to-install. It's just that no one has built a special purpose application with a single minded install path (Django can be self-hosted, mod_python, or mod_wsgi but it is a framework and not an application in the sense that WordPress is an application and CakePHP is a framework) that is relevant to WordPress, closest probably being Plone.


Since the framework and the server(s) can be set up in a multitude of ways (including two-server setups with Apache serving Django and nginx serving static files), I'm finding it really hard to believe that you'd be able to distribute a one-size-fits-all Django-WordPress egg.

Sure you could have RPMs or Debian packages tailormade for a specific distribution, but WordPress has the advantage that it's a downloadable package that can easily be (S)FTP'd into a folder on a shared host and run, and it'll work with most hosts. You just can't do that with Django-WordPress.

Again, I use Django/Python more than PHP these days, so it's not a PHP versus Python thing.


True, there are many possible configurations, but a few (I don't have widespread experience with Python based hosts because most of my Python work has been on my own servers) hosts I've used have mod_wsgi installed with a WSGIDaemon process pointing at the application directory with index.wsgi being one of the index handlers. What you are supposed to provide is an application with a route through an index.wsgi file. In Pylon's case (this is how I have my server setup) index.wsgi is simply loading the Pylons app and providing it as a wrapped "application" class as a callable. Very standard and very easy.

As an example, here is the index.wsgi front-controller that loads my Pylons app (note, mine is more complicated than I'm showing here because I use virtualenv to contain the app):

    from paste.deploy import loadapp
    application = loadapp('config:/home/my_app/production/production.ini')
The host makes sure that the Apache vhost has mod_wsgi configured to run a WSGIDaemon process for the /home/my_app/production directory - typically (in the case of WebFaction) they give you an interface that handles all of that (so you can run multiple apps out of the same top level directory) in the course of creating your "sites", the same exact process you would go through for creating "sites" for a PHP based application.

Also, you don't need to tailor RPM's to the distribution, you can package your app as a python egg (which is cross-platform and contains the dependency links in your setup.py). I almost think this is easier than (S)FTP'ing the app up to your host. If your host gives you SSH access (which all $5 a month hosts do as far as I know - the crappier ones put you through a verification process, but a good one will give it to you the minute you are signed up) you can easily rsync the app up and then run "python setup.py whatevercommandyourappuses" and bam - you're good to go.

You could even put the database creation steps into the setup.py routine - "python setup.py build", "python setup.py install" <---- build necessary directories, then build your database tables for you. Much safer (and easier) than supplying an install script that can be accessed publicly.

I will concede though, that the whole scenario I've just described wouldn't be easy and fast for the average joe due to their inexperience with Python and/or the command line... That kind of thing makes me wonder though why we don't have basic programming courses as a requirement in high-school. If only my father (a lawyer) knew what sed/grep/awk could do for his manipulation of documents... I'm digressing now and I'll stop.

I know it isn't a PHP vs. Python thing - it just frustrates me when people make the argument for an inferior tool in favor of ease of use when ultimately (as per the scenario I gave above) the more powerful tool can save you time... I came from PHP land and will not go back - thanks in part to Python and the other methodologies I've learned.


Your level of knowledge in administration is not common. PHP wins on deployment because every $5 host your average beginner programmer uses already has PHP on it, and deploy is just ftp/sftp. By comparison, a beginner in python will probably also need to learn some *nix and/or get a root account.

When wide acceptance is the goal, even small frictions can be material.


Uh, nope. You definitely don't need root to use Django.


I know. I think you're missing the point. The fact that one may make an informed decision does not change the fact that many make uninformed decisions and judge the situation based on their perception rather than independent reality.

This matters, facts or no.


In a previous comment I conceded the fact that some trappings of an excellent Python deployment solution would require more knowledge than is common to the average "I want a site that I can post content to" user.

However. I still think a well engineered application that could cater to many of the $5 hosts' python setups could be just as easy to setup as a PHP app.


The code name is only ever used in these posts as far as I know, it's the version number which is most used for referencing the install type. It's not that big of a deal.


In July this year the Django (as in framework) mark, assuming it's the one below, becomes incontestable, which strengthens it's case a lot if they sue Wordpress.

It's also generally a strong mark as it is what TM attorneys call "arbitrary" - like Apple computer.

If Django doesn't sue, they weaken their trademark. You have to enforce your rights to your trademark if someone infringes or a later infringer can use your lack of enforcement as an argument against you.

The reality is that Django probably won't sue and it doesn't matter because few people Google for Wordpress releases by release name.

From the USPTO:

Word Mark DJANGO Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: DOWNLOADABLE OPEN SOURCE COMPUTER SOFTWARE FOR USE IN CONNECTION WITH INTERNET PUBLISHING AND WEBSITE DEVELOPMENT. FIRST USE: 20050719. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20050719 Standard Characters Claimed Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Serial Number 78680396 Filing Date July 28, 2005 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition April 25, 2006 Registration Number 3117015 Registration Date July 18, 2006 Owner (REGISTRANT) THE WORLD COMPANY CORPORATION KANSAS 609 NEW HAMPSHIRE, P.O. BOX 888 LAWRENCE KANSAS 66044 Attorney of Record Michael B.Hurd, Warren N. Williams, Stephen D. Timmons, John M. Collins, Thomas H. Van Hoozer, Thomas B. Luebbering, Andrew G. Colombo, Scott R. Brown, Tracy L. Bornman, Tracey S. Truitt, Michael Elbein, Joan Optican Herman, David V. Ayres, Kameron D. Kelly, Gregory J. Skoch, Jennifer C. Bailey, Cheryl L. Burbach, Matthew P. Harlow, and Sam M. Korte Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


"If Django doesn't sue, they weaken their trademark."

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm nearly certain that this isn't true. Trademark holders are required to defend their trademarks, but "defense" does not mean "lawsuit." The law requires us to do whatever's necessary, which can run the gamut from polite notes to suits. Happily, as I knew it would, the former was perfectly sufficient in this case. Score one for open source.


Android names their 3.1 release: Windows.


Do you mean Windows names their 8 release 'Android?'


Is Windows a form of dessert now?


Then the bloatware is the icing on the cake.


Android 3.2 - Apple

Okay, so maybe apples aren't your stereotypical dessert...


"Apple pie" instead?


Guido van Rossum names his new programming language after CMU's Lisp compiler...


damn, they really want to contaminate google search results...


They weren't unaware of the Django project, as their link for 'on using PHP' actually points to django's homepage. Friggin weird.


Isn't this just asking for a trademark lawsuit from the Django software foundation?


What's with the edited title on HN? Now most of this doesn't make any sense.


Okay, so everyone thinks that WordPress shouldn't use the name of a well-known jazz musician, but they're perfectly fine with the fact that the Django Software Foundation has trademarked Django, a common Romani word/name?

WordPress certainly doesn't own the name Django, but the Django Software Foundation shouldn't have any particular right to it either if things were fair.

(Oh, btw., I'm a happy Django user - but I'd still be pretty upset if someone decided to trademark my name).


The Django trademark is for a specific context-- downloadable CMS software. You are free to use Django in other contexts, such as naming a car, a band, or whatever.


Except Django isn't a CMS, it's a framework (a CMS is a piece of software that allows non-technically-minded people to manage the content of a website. A framework, on the other hand, is made for developers).

But my main point is that, while I understand that the Django Software Foundation has a trademark on the name Django in a specific content, it ought not to be possible to trademark a common name at all.


Are you suggesting that the only trade marks be totally made up words? That flies in the face of hundreds of years of tradition. People have been using their own names in their business and need to be able to keep others from unfairly trying to confuse customers.

If Roberts and Sons Cleaners is an established brand in a community, we would want a legal mechanism for that business to protect their brand - without having to change every business name to XYZZY, etc.


I wouldn't have a problem with a name like "Roberts and Sons Cleaners" because, after all, it's a fairly unique combination of words. I would, however, have a big problem with someone trademarking the name "Robert". And that is the issue here: Django is a first name.


I agree it would be nice to be more cut and dried. In practice, I think it would come down to a court deciding if their was the possibility of misleading the consumer, by mimicking a well-known brand in a particular market.

So I think businesses can get trademarks for English words and common names - with the understanding that they might be geographically or market-segment limited in their protection.


> they're perfectly fine with the fact that the Django Software Foundation has trademarked Django, a common Romani word/name?

Yes, because it's not confusing.

> I'd still be pretty upset if someone decided to trademark my name

It's very common for things to either be named after specific people, or to use names given to humans.


The guys behind the Reinhardt framework are going to be mad! http://www.sitepen.com/blog/2008/10/09/reinhardt-a-client-si...


Absurd.

I'm currently working on a blogging/messaging website. Maybe I should call it Wordpress? :-)


Only if its auto-update mechanism mysteriously crashes.


Off-topic: Poor title rename; it should include that it was renamed "Reinhardt" from "Django" so as for the discussion to make sense.


Didn't even know they had codenames for wordpress, but this one sounds surprisingly similar to something python-y people claim to be great (can't judge it myself)


To be fair, they follow a tradition of naming their releases after Jazz musicians, and have been since before Django was released.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WordPress#Releases

But still. WTF.


They should have been kind enough to use his last name if they were going to name the release after him.

But I've never heard of release names for wordpress before so I don't expect this to mess google search results up when searching for django (python) related things.



I would have loved to sit in on this meeting ...


"We've got these lawyers on retainer doing nothing! Let's get sued to give them something to do!"


I believe it now says "Reinhardt" on their page, and not "Django". So you can rest easy. Sure, there might be a guy named Django Reinhardt, but surely of someone called their project "George" and another person called their project "Washington", it would be ok right?


Will Wordpress 3.2 be named Rails?


Rather poor judgement.


If they were in a completely different area, for example if they were selling baskets, Django would have been perfectly acceptable.

But calling a blogging platform Django is just stupid. It might also be unethical as some pointed out Django is a registered trademark.

I can see this happening:

- "So how do I get started with WordPress?"

- "You have to download the latest Django release"

- "Oh, ok"

(downloads latest from djangoproject.com ...)


The only difference is ghat they usually say "you have to download the latest version of WordPress from their website."


But what is the latest version called?

Django, of course! o_O


> (downloads latest from djangoproject.com ...)

Well, actually, that's for better.


So what? What makes this a #1 story in HN?


This has influenced me to name my releases after Ninja Turtle characters. Hoping for a ROCKSTEADY RC opportunity.


Is it April 1st already?


Wow. I'm going to start using this approach with my own app...

ParkGrades 1.0 codename "Hotpot"

ParkGrades 1.3 codename "Yelp"

ParkGrades 1.5 codename "Reddit"

ParkGrades 2.0 codename "Apple"


Next release of Set For Marriage, codenamed: PlentyOfeMatchCupidHarmonyOK


OK this page makes no sense whatsoever, how much edition has been going on in this thing?

Let me see if I understand what happens from the apparently still available press releases and puff pieces on the web: WordPress 3.1 was actually released using the codename "django"?


At first I was like "Heh.."

But then I looked at my calendar and realized it wasn't April.


Is this evidence that WP is feeling the heat from frameworks?

I can imagine that after years of using WP there would be a significant portion who are looking for something more full-featured or performant or whatever, there are myriad reasons for changing platforms. That reasonably intelligent (or moneyed) people can so easily learn or hire to write a completely custom site seems uncontroversial. The enterprising RoR or Dj coder would do well to sniff around WP site owners.

In other news, WP has a new version coming out, which I imagine was the real point of WP starting this controversy. Cheap publicity, blog mentions, yadda yadda. Learn from history: upgrade early and often!


What would be nice is a _fully_ featured blogging engine written in Django.


> Is this evidence that WP is feeling the heat from frameworks?

No.


You may be wrong.


I might be wrong that WordPress continuing their long standing naming convention for releases isn't a sign that they're seeing competition from frameworks?

They may be seeing competition, but naming it Django - and quickly renaming once they realized - is hardly a sign of that.


True story: today I got Chinese takeout for lunch from a restaurant I've been going to for over 15 years. Every single lunch special they offer and have ever offered comes with rice. When I got home, I found that there was no rice in my lunch special. No rice...from a Chinese restaurant.

I'm pretty amazed at how well this provides an allegory for WP people somehow not knowing about Django, and for what it's worth there are 188,000 Google results for "Wordpress vs. Django." I'm not trying to lie with statistics, I'm just trying to provide an illustration that they aren't worlds apart.

But it's not a huge deal, it's been fixed, no harm no foul, and only a controversy among tetchy nerds. I'm fine with that, but I can still say something's weird about it. ;)


Does anyone else find is amusing that a framework named after a human being is complaining about someone else sorta-not-really using their name?

Lame. Who cares.


WordPress 3.2 release: "Microsoft" just announced


I smell trademark infringement. I really do wonder if this wasn't a "prodding" on purpose after all.


Considering how agressive Automattic was in competing with SixApart a few years back, I wouldn't be surprised.




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