Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

You're gonna need to provide some data on that, because that sounds like absolute nonsense (potentially mixed with some misogynistic assumptions about how women choose partners) to me.

OkCupid used to run a sort of stats blog. Unfortunately I think they took them down so all I have left are screenshots. There are a couple of interesting things going on online that are illustrative of a darker side to dating.

1. The top 80% of women tend to message the top 10% (or less) of men, while men message according to an approximately normal distribution

2. Aggregate male ratings of female attractiveness are approximately normally distributed, while female ratings are heavily skewed such that most men are rated below average.

The overall indications are that the vast majority of women go for the highest ranked men. Now, from an evolutionary perspective, this makes some sense, a woman can have one child every month, while a single man can impregnate an entire village. Unfortunately, when you erase cultural norms that correct this innate tendency by encouraging long term committed relationships, the result increasingly resembles hypergamy, where a small population of men are sleeping with the majority of women.

And so the lowest ranked males, who ultimately cannot simply "learn to groom" or "be themselves" or "be confident" end up isolated and perpetually frustrated. Then when a tiny minority act upon their wholly justified misery, the entire bottom end of the distribution get slandered as "incel" and "terrorism".

This article is moral panic bullshit, as inane and disconnected from reality as blaming Eminem for teenage violence.

You want to talk about mental health? Imagine living a life where you are innately driven to desire companionship and affection, but are consistently unable to receive it because of physical and psychological limitations to your status as a desirable mate. Couple this with a broken culture which indirectly encourages hypergamy and notmalizes infantalism well into your 20s and now you have a serious chronic loneliness crisis - but the perception is that it's just those nerds everyone bullied in high school so there's no need to pay it any attention.

Messaging != sleeping with

While that's true, is there any reason to expect that the distribution of "successful connections" would be any different than that of initial messages? Or that it wouldn't be even more skewed towards the edges?

It’s likely that only a tiny portion of that 80% of women is getting a response from that 10% of men.

Additionally, that’s of women who initiate messages. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that most women aren’t going to be initiating.

That's fair! Data on who women respond to would be helpful here, but that would have to somehow be disentangled from messages in the form of "fuck off, creep".

OkCupid did a study a few years back that showed that unless a male is very attractive, they probably won't have much luck with online dating. Male attractivness tended to be highly skewed towards below average, while females attractivness mostly followed a bell curve where most girls were ranked as being around average, with very few being considered unattractive or very attractive.


It's not misogynistic if we fix one part of the meme: It's not that just women try to date up, but that everybody tries to date up, at least on average.

To clarify: For one person to on average try to date up merely means that their attempts will have an average which is above their actual attractiveness, but that doesn't say anything about who they actually date.

The research does show women generally having a similar number of partners, whereas some men will have 100s and others 0. Dating apps might exacerbate this? Source is uhhh basic google search?

You're just learning that there are a handful of guys who will fuck anything? Having hundreds of partners doesn't make you "top 10%."

"uhhh basic google search?" is not a source.

What research?

It’s not misogynistic if it’s true. The dating scene is absolutely brutal for a lot men, atleast until they can date women in their late twenties.

The source is basically all I did for the last five years was work and chase women in major cities. I’ve seen it all

If your view of dating is that you need to "chase" women, and the only possible reason you can see that women won't date you is because you're not in the top 10%, and you've spent five years on this and not any time rethinking your approach, you do not have sufficient information to prove anyone is the problem except yourself.

I'm not saying the online dating scene isn't frustrating. It is. But sweeping generalizations about 51% of humanity on the basis of your negative personal experience isn't going to help anyone, including you yourself.

This isn't just his shitty opinion from personal difficulty. Look at mating patterns in other social creatures, especially primates. Why do you think human attraction can't be similar?

Look at primate troops which are naturally dominated by one reproducing male. Now throw in higher level emotions and self awareness and a range of cultures, some of which have norms which encourage early monogamy, others which emphasize social status such that dating distributions start to resemble those of primates.

Point is these sweeping generalizations do become accurate depending on which statistics you consider. Dating is asymmetric, and women hold all of the power over the vast majority of men.

Don't take my word for it. Find a basically pretty women to go to a bar with and pay attention to the kind of attention she gets, just being passive. Now imagine a male dating successfully by being totally passive - incidentally this very much related to innate behavioral pressure which leads to gender roles.

A phrase like "top 10% of men" doesn't even compute for a woman. Women have wildly different tastes in men. It's men who rate women 1-10 and who exhibit consensus in their tastes.

> The source is basically all I did for the last five years was work and chase women in major cities. I’ve seen it all

Maybe it's you.


The way the internet contributes to the problem is that it makes it much easier for violent extremists to connect to each other and together they amplify and reinforce each other's extremism.

As to why incels think they're not getting laid: people are very good at lying to themselves, and rarely have the strength or honesty to face negative aspects of their own personalities. It's much easier to lash out at others and blame them for problems of one's own making.

This is seen again and again in all sorts of abusers. Self-identified incels are just a new version of this.

>Women have wildly different tastes in men. It's men who rate women 1-10 and who exhibit consensus in their tastes.

This is borderline misandrist nonsense. Whether men or women explicitly rate members of the other sex on a scale in private doesn't change that

1. Males and females both have preferences which in aggregate assign some uneven value and therefore rank to potential mates

2. Beauty standards may vary by individual but you simply cannot deny that there are universal traits that make ratings between individuals rather consistent.


Applications are open for YC Summer 2020

Guidelines | FAQ | Support | API | Security | Lists | Bookmarklet | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact