Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
Home in Nix – dotfile management (hugoreeves.com)
122 points by devhugo 16 days ago | hide | past | web | favorite | 35 comments



I tried out Nix recently, with the intention of using it to get declarative management of my user account.

I discovered too late that Nix basically has no support for this.

While NixOS has some very nice features for declarative setup, user environment management boils down to terminal commands for "install package X, remove package Y".

The mentioned home-manager seems more of an awkward hack than a good solution in my view. It builds up a parallel package repository that you have to use besides the actual packages, and requires a lot of additional work if you want to customize something.

In my understanding (possibly incorrent?) it is also not actually immutable, but just dumps down files into $HOME, losing the most interesting aspect of Nix.

In the end I ditched it and stuck to my Ansible setup.

Nix is a great approach, and definitely worth a look, if you can stomach the other downsides (see below). But right now I would only recommend it for deterministic server builds or isolated dev environments, not for managing you main setup.

* Problems:

- There is plenty of documentation, but it is often incoherent, messy, missing important explanations, and it is generally very awkward to get a good insight and understanding of how all the parts fit together.

- The language... it is full of confusing oddities; clearly something that has grown peace by piece. Switching to something more coherent like Gluon (also functional, https://github.com/gluon-lang/gluon) would seem like a better approach to me.

- Packages: The quality can be very hit and miss. I discovered several that are written poorly. Plenty are also outdated/unmaintained. But: considering the niche nature of Nix, the amount of packages is actually quite impressive.


Nix/OS definitely has some rough edges and discovery problems.

I can't comment directly on home manager, and I have had to put a lot of work into adopting Nix, but FWIW I'm happily using it to manage my NixOS desktop at home (since early 2018; my first daily-driver Linux system) and my macbook (since late 2018--though, caution: Nix hasn't really settled into Catalina yet).

Not quite sure how to express it. I guess the ecosystem isn't yet a full-throated embodiment of its own vision for computing. But, if you buy into the vision enough to sweat a little for it, it is livable.


The mentioned home-manager is more of an awkward hack than a good solution in my view. Tt's not actually immutable, but just dumps down files into $HOME,

That's actually not true. Each home-manager generation is immutable and in the Nix store. E.g., the last two generations on my MacBook:

    home-manager generations | head -n2
    2019-12-23 12:05 : id 12 -> /nix/store/6rig5ip0swmnnfcvgm221n5lig3xsh18-home-manager-generation
    2019-12-12 12:40 : id 11 -> /nix/store/8as4k5x7i5bhf3wjvlcczhx8w2680k46-home-manager-generation
But it symlinks certain files from the store in the home directory, because some programs (e.g. shells) have hardcoded paths to configuration files.

losing the most interesting aspect of Nix

Similarly to the declarative NixOS configuration, you can switch between home-manager generations, etc. It's a purely declarative configuration.

It also basically builds up a parallel package repository that you have to use besides the actual packages,

What do you mean by this? home-manager also uses the Nix store. E.g., my home-manager configuration contains ripgrep in the declarative package configuration:

    $ realpath $(which rg)
    /nix/store/hww0h39bs56hp17ynxcjrk0imgqill07-ripgrep-11.0.2/bin/rg
There is plenty of documentation, but it is often incoherent, messy, missing important explanations,

I fully agree! Often one has to read derivations in nixpkgs to understand how things are done.

The language... It is full of oddities and basically a mess

I disagree. I didn't like it when I started using Nix and seriously looked at Guix because it used scheme. Now, 1.5 year later, I like Nix as a language. It's just a small, functional language.

---

I think the biggest barrier of the Nix ecosystem is that you can't really use NixOS or Nix in a meaningful way without also learning the Nix language and some of the intricacies of writing derivations. So, you are pretty much all-in or it will be a frustrating experience. So, I understand your point about only using NixOS on reproducible servers. I also use NixOS on my desktop (and love it), but admittedly, it's only doable when you invest enough time to learn things.

If someone wants an immutable system with transactional installs and updates, Fedora Silverblue is probably a much easier entry-point, because you do not really have to understand OSTree et al. to use it.


> Now, 1.5 year later, I like Nix as a language. It's just a small, functional language.

If nixos used a different language (e.g. gluon), do you think you would have become more comfortable quicker?


Nix as a language is tiny. If you know functional programming at all you won't have any trouble with it and can "learn" it in days if you put in the effort. NixOS isn't complicated because of the language.


I don't know Gluon (from a quick glance, it looks similar to Haskell and ML). But I do not think it will help much. Nix is a small, lazy, functional language. Being a lazy functional language, it will be more difficult for people without a FP background. But laziness and purity provides a lot of benefits.

I think the problem is more about documentation and expectations:

- Nix only has a small number of builtins. A lot of useful functions are in nixpkgs. As a consequence, you often have to look in two places to find if there is an existing function that does what you want to do. Added to that, some functions are undocumented and can only be discovered through the REPL or by reading the relevant nixpkgs sources. Then some functions do have documentation, but the documentation is very terse, does not contain good examples, etc. I think things would be clearer if Nix had a documented standard library and nixpkgs would only be focused on providing package derivations and NixOS modules.

- Expectation-wise: I think a lot of people do not expect to have to learn a new language when starting to use a package manager and/or distribution. This leads to treating derivations akin to RPM spec files (which is what I did in the beginning), which becomes frustrating very quickly.

Disclaimer: I am by no means a Nix expert. These are my observations from learning Nix myself since last year.


> Nix is a small, lazy, functional language. Being a lazy functional language, it will be more difficult for people without a FP background. But laziness and purity provides a lot of benefits.

Many functional languages have lazy evaluation, and they do provide benefits. However, unfortunately, this concept has leaked into other areas of programming. In particular, many database ORMs use lazy evaluation to pull data. In one step, you create a database query, then pass that off to another function or class. Then, when it's off in another package and evaluated the query is made.

The main problem with lazy evaluation of database queries is that it treats a database evaluation like normal code, even though under the hood there may be network access, caching, and if you're not careful duplicative database pulls.

Generally, there should be a rule in programming languages that when you make a network call, the programmer has clear visibility into when that is happening. Hiding it with fancy syntax is more of a negative than a positive.


The documentation is not much aimed on a developer workflow.

The `shell.nix` files make it easy to place the environment setup in your repository. The file contains the list of packages that you need and you can make these packages available in just one shell by calling `nix-shell`.

Here's an example of a `shell.nix` file:

    with import <nixpkgs> {};

    stdenv.mkDerivation {
      name = "cv-env";
      buildInputs = [
        libxslt gnumake openjdk entr
      ];
    }


I tried to do this, but I ran into way too many problems.

Each approach I tried failed because of some limitation that made the whole thing awkward or pointless. (like symlinking immutable config files into $HOME)

This admittedly might have been exacerbated by my shallow understanding.


Each approach I tried failed because of some limitation that made the whole thing awkward or pointless.

Could you explain the limitations that you've run into? I have been using shell.nix + direnv + some caching for 1.5 years now and I have been very happy with it.

The only thing I disliked is that shell.nix is underspecified in the sense that it by default relies on your configured nixpkgs channel. So, I am now using niv to pin down nixpkgs and other package sets (mostly my own) to specific revisions. Once Nix flakes become mainline, this can be done easily without third-party tools.


I do this. When I run into problems with a shell.nix, I fix the underlying project, or abandon it. Nix is ruthless but being ruthless is required in the face of the task of taming decades of terrible software.


That's missing the point of immutable reproducible builds i did something similar with arch and ansible long time ago. And it would end up in weird state quite often https://github.com/dejanr/archbox


> In the end I ditched it and stuck to my Ansible setup.

For your own workstation- what OS?

Have you got these in github or somewhere i could take a look?


I migrated to this new setup slowly. First of all, I think separating things out from the main Nixpkgs repo is valuable, particularly for this whole new scope of user configuration. Based on what you've written I think you may be missing part of the power of home-manager. Worst case scenario, this is how I manage neovim, you can just write a file that sources a bunch of local files into the correct location on your computer. See https://github.com/HugoReeves/nix-home/tree/master/program/e... ```nix { config, lib, pkgs, ... }: { xdg.configFile."nvim/coc-settings.json".source = ./configs/coc-settings.json; xdg.configFile."nvim/fixers.vimrc".source = ./configs/fixers.vimrc; xdg.configFile."nvim/flags.vimrc".source = ./configs/flags.vimrc; xdg.configFile."nvim/general.vimrc".source = ./configs/general.vimrc; xdg.configFile."nvim/init.vimrc".source = ./configs/init.vimrc; xdg.configFile."nvim/init.vim".source = ./configs/init.vim; xdg.configFile."nvim/keys.vimrc".source = ./configs/keys.vimrc; xdg.configFile."nvim/lsp.vimrc".source = ./configs/lsp.vimrc; xdg.configFile."nvim/status-line.vimrc".source = ./configs/status-line.vimrc; xdg.configFile."nvim/themes.vimrc".source = ./configs/themes.vimrc; xdg.configFile."nvim/vista.vimrc".source = ./configs/vista.vimrc; } ``` So at worst it's an overly complicated way to source files into your home directories. However with the home-manager supported configuration it's much better in my opinion.

In regards to the problems. 1. I totally agree. Everyone using Nix has seen this as an issue for a while, and I'm not entirely sure how it can be fixed in the near term. I would say that Nix is for people who love to tinker and enjoy spending time on this sort of thing. If that's you, go to the riot chat or the subreddit and ask questions there. r/nixos 2. Haven't seen gluon before, interesting. Nix is functional which is key and it's focus as a configuration language offers it some great advantages when used for configuration. I believe a gluon is not feasible as it's not functional. The Nix team seems open to changing parts of the language to improve it, they are looking at removing the special url syntax for example. 3. No comment. I haven't really looked at this space. Nixpkgs if that is what you are referring to is pretty well maintained, particularly for the configuration-less executables.


I use Nix for declarative management of my user account using home-manager. I think you might be missing something.


My $HOME is a git repo for my dotfiles, with a .gitignore containing just "*". Simple, zero abstractions, no need for additional management.


Further, you can create a bare git repo and make $HOME it's working tree.

More details here [1].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11071754


I've recently started using yadm, which is a light abstraction on top of git. One big reason - "Alternate Files" support - which makes it easy to have MacOS and Linux binaries for the same tools, along with the rest of my shell setup, in one Git repo.


funny enough, this technique is also described here : https://drewdevault.com/2019/12/30/dotfiles.html


Same here. New machine? Add a remote, checkout master.


Would prefer GNU stow for simplicity.

https://www.gnu.org/software/stow/


GNU Stow is _great_ for this. I have the following in my dotfiles dir:

    [~/code/dotfiles]$ tree -a -R -L 2
    ├── aws
    │   └── .aws
    ├── git
    │   ├── .gitconfig
    │   └── .gitignore_global
    ├── .gitignore
    ├── .gitmodules
    ├── gpg
    │   └── .gnupg
    ├── README
    ├── ssh
    │   └── .ssh
    ├── tmux
    │   ├── .tmux
    │   └── .tmux.conf
    ├── vim
    │   ├── .viminfo
    │   └── .vimrc
    └── zsh
        ├── .oh-my-zsh
        └── .zshrc
I can then stow any of these into my home dir with:

    $cd ~/code/dotfiles
    $ stow -t $HOME git
That sets up a link from all the files in my home dir like:

    .gitconfig -> code/dotfiles/git/.gitconfig


I've looked at and read about other's experiences with stow in the past. I'm uncertain about this so please correct me where I am wrong, but the issues I see with stow are: 1. It's somewhat dated/may have a tail of legacy features 2. I'm unsure of it's value beyond of what can be provided via the Git Bare Repo solution linked in the intro of my post. 3. More importantly, it's not a programmable solution where you can override default files based on the current system. The main value proposition I see in my system is that I can define a single default configuration for, say, my terminal Alacritty, and override the configuration where necessary based on either my user, machine or role. Nix is a programming language, so I essentially have my system configuration managed via a programming language and can control things with a great level of detail.


I use Stow, it is simple and only does a few things, but for a lot of users like me it is more than enough:

1. Probably it will not receive more features any time soon.

2. You can have several configurations and mix them, also it makes very easy to adopt changes from the current system and/or rollback changes.

3. No, it is not programmable, but you can have several folder for different systems and configurations. I for example have a folder called unix for all *nix systems, other called x11 for x11 programs, darwin for macOS, etc. You could do the same with roles.

If you want really fine grained control over machine/user/role, it is not enough, and it does not take into account package managing at all.

I use a mix of Stow/Ansible for Desktops and HashiCorp/Ansible for the `cattle`. Nix is more powerful than my setting, but I still need to evaluate if it is flexible enough for the orgs I work with.


I have very similar setup https://github.com/dejanr/dotfiles it was inspired by https://github.com/peel/dotfiles and few other repositories.

Also i still symlink some stuff like stow is doing, but with few shell scripts. The main difference is that my dotfiles are not start with '.'.

Idea is to move everything to nix, so that when you rollback, you rollback your dotfiles as well.

What i wish maybe, is that i used home manager but that some future focus.


stay simple, simple dot files, don't create overkill work for yourself so you don't need to manage your dot files.


Nice post, thanks for sharing. I currently use vcsh and myrepos and they work great for me. Now that I switched to Nixos maybe I could give home-manager a try.

I wrote about my approach here in case you are interested ( https://germano.dev/dotfiles/ )


Interesting. Home manager will enable you to manage your dotfiles. The more interesting proposition comes from Nix. I've absolutely loved using it in general and run NixOS by choice as my desktop OS. The great thing about using Nix and Home Manager to manage dotfiles is that your configuration is defined in a programming langauge. You have broad scope to control things based on whatever environment you are deploying the files to. It's a really powerful solution, it just takes a bit more time than some other dotfile systems. Give Home Manager a go if you have time to tinker, and if you have questions feel free to contact me through my email on my homepage.


I just clone my dotfile repo from github into ~/darkrc and include the config files I want on each system, so my ~/.bashrc will have a "source $HOME/darkrc/bashrc" at the end, ~/.config/ranger/rc.conf will have "source ~/darkrc/ranger.conf", etc.


That's certainly one option. The unique thing about dotfiles is that everyone has a different 'best solution'. The setup outlined in my post has the advantage of being highly configurable and programmable. However, for some people it might make more sense to use a plain git repo with symlinks as installing Nix on all their devices could be a nonstarter. I'm curious, what do you use to manage tools that don't have a `source $SOME_PATH` option. Do you symlink?


Generally speaking, I avoid those tools. One example where this happens is rifle; in that case I just have a symlink. Alternatively, one could also just get a standalone C preprocessor and add a git hook to recompile files whenever you commit/pull some new changes.


I used to symlink and have a simple dotfiles repo, but this forces you to have exactly identical rc files. Different computers simply need different setups, so I started with ansible and a few playbooks running locally.


This was posted recently https://drewdevault.com/2019/12/30/dotfiles.html, but I actually liked the idea of using uname, hostname etc in constructing $PATH and even though I was already using git to track my dotfiles I adapted some parts of my setup like Drew describes and made $HOME a git repo itself ignoring everything by default. Works quite well across different OSs, machines and shells.


I for one am waiting for systemd homed.


As always with anything about systemd, it's impossible to know if it's satire without looking at the source code. Sometimes, not even then.




Guidelines | FAQ | Support | API | Security | Lists | Bookmarklet | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: