They should, but they didn't. Before AMP most of the web was unusable on slower Android phones and frontenders just laughed at you and told you to drop 800$ on an iPhone if you want to see their pages. Is it a surprise that Google shoved a technology to fix web on their platform down developers throats?
Nothing else before AMP helped. Why do you think those developers will suddenly wake up and start building lightweight web pages now? Instead of ad bloated, video playing monstrosities?
Web developers were slothful. This is how purgatory looks like. ;)
I've downvoted this post because it lacks substance, and the resulting arguments will derail the thread and bury actionable information that was shared below. It's depressing how most of these threads could initiate action but seem to be derailed.
Of course no one is _against_ good performance, but web devs obviously don't care enough to do anything about it. There's no practical difference between the two.
Just to be clear, I hate AMP, but I also feel a sort of pleasurable vindication in the pain that developers and companies must now go through because of the horrendously slow trackers and ads they used to fill their pages with.
Google offers both the poison and the antidote, and each of their solutions, see what they're doing with request blocking in Chrome, happens to erode user liberties and privacy rights to concentrate power around Google properties.
FYI Personal opinion not Google's.
That speed matters to user behavior has been known for a long, long time. This knowledge existed long before AMP did. It had surprisingly little effect on how pages were implemented.
So perhaps our princess is in another castle.
To my thinking, ahat AMP does is create a political context that enables developers to push back. By setting an unambiguous standard and clear advantages to complying with it, developers have a weapon to push back next time Marketing wants to ad fifteen trackers or whatever. This is leverage that just was not present previously, and it can change decisions.
Yeah, I think this is exactly it. Just like web developers don''
t care about disabled people until law threatens penalties, they didn't care about performance until Google threatened penalties.
The question is - who else could provide same incentives as Google? How could an independent, non-corporate entitiy create the same pressure?
The other answer is "Browser makers"... but that's also Google. And maybe Mozilla, which is arguably the "independent, non-corporate entity" you'd like.
Really though, this works because Google has the technical chops to make it work and the positioning to make people want to do it. I cannot think of a single "independent, non-corporate entity" that's both positioned to do this and capable of it.
But that's not an appropriate role for Google. They aren't, and shouldn't be, the web equivalent of fashion police.
AMP avoids all of that. It also brings security benefits by getting rid of basically every tag that can be used to mount attacks on the browser.
Also, it's been known for quite a long time that users like faster sites, resulting in much lower bounce rates. Was that not enough for you to optimize the hell out of your site? It's been my experience that in a lot of companies, it isn't enough. Marketing or publishing or whichever department can attach dollar amounts to the tracker or ad or whatever they want to add, and devs can only handwave around experience.
It's not a winning proposition.
It would be ridiculous to down-rank the exact thing the user is searching for just because the user would have to wait 800ms longer for that information. Or up-rank something the user isn't looking for just because it loads faster.
The best Google can do is bluff about how much perf matters.
It may just be unfounded cynicism on my part, but this does not sound like a better web experience. It sounds like the web circa 2009-2015. It sounds, to me, exactly like all the things we'd like to get away from with something less intrusive than AMP.
When you say that it was unusable, surely it's hyperbole.
I might be in a minority maybe, but I never had a problem with it and I've been a heavy user. And especially now that 4G connections are everywhere and smartphones are overpowered.
I mean I watch HD videos on the web while riding the city bus with no interruptions.
Are you telling me that a phone with better performance than the desktop I had 10 years ago, with a 4G connection able to stream hundreds of MB of data on a moving bus isn't capable of loading freaking text content without AMP?
Surely something is missing from this picture. I'm replying to you on Hacker News by loading the website in my browser, no AMP in sight. And I read HN, including all websites listed on HN, from my phone with no AMP.
And sure some websites can take a second or two to load due to crappy ads mostly. I remember a time when I waited for 5 minutes to load a website, when all we had was dial-up. And even that was awesome ;-)
N.b. I avoid AMP on purpose. I started using DuckDuckGo on my mobile to avoid AMP, as I had no other way to turn that shit it off.
HN is an exceptionally fast website and not representative of the Web at large.
Compare HN to something like reddit, a website which provides very similar functionality but is an order of magnitude slower. Then ask yourself why reddit has to be so slow.
Also if Reddit is slower than HN, that's probably because they don't care (law of diminishing returns ftw) and I'm sure they'd rather drive people to their mobile app instead. All of this isn't the fault of the web technologies used and neglect can't be solved by AMP.
AMP puts websites under Google's control and nobody asked for it, being shoved down on people's throats due to an imaginary problem.
> You were not browsing the Web on "slow android phones"
Note that even the shitty, stock Android phones today are better than the iPhone that I had back then. Such is the progress of technology.
I know because we have a ton of low cost Android phones to test with.
The only performance problems we encounter are in the third world countries of Africa and possibly in other emerging markets, but that's only a temporary issue and I predict that in another 3-4 years from now it will be a non-issue even in those countries, hardly a reason to give up on our web standards. And it's not like you can't design super lean websites anyway.
Sure, but people don't.
Okay, great. You had one of the most powerful phones at the time. How was the experience for people with a "feature phone" in 2008? (I'll tell you from experience, it was terrible).
How would the experience be today, with your iPhone from 2008? Terrible. Why? Is the web more powerful as a result? Can you do more things? Nah, it just looks flashier.
I'd like to think similar ends could have been achieved by setting and rewarding standards around #'s of included scripts, size of the page load, etc. But that wouldn't have achieved the goal of keeping people on google.com even when clicking search results.
I'm using the word "purgatory" because it's not too late to get rid of it. But it does demand the web devs to get their act together. Will they?
Take twitter for example. A tweet takes about 10mb to load. Based on something I did about a year ago. To put that in perspective, information transfer wise, war and peace is like 800kb. The whole book. 280 char or whatever, of a single page tweet being 10mb is moronic. Reddit bit the same stupid bug with their redesign.
The biggest problem, everyone is complacent and thinks "this is what progress looks like and you're a curmudgeon boomer if you think otherwise." Forethought in real sustainability, both environmentally and sociologically is looked on as impeding progress. Just like when small amounts of devs a decade ago said we need to be careful of big tech companies with our data. They were shot down and that push for "break things fast" became the name of the game. Now everyone says tax dollars must be spent for 5g because "we need the bandwidth". No, more people need to be less stupid. Mostly consumers. But devs need to start taking a stronger stance in outing bullshit tactics these businesses are implementing and quit going on their knees to pray to the silicon valley giants as some great saviors of society and their wealth is an indication of their genius. Ugh... got into a rant...
But as a web user, I resent Google's efforts to put me in purgatory as well.
It's crazy. WordPress is epic mess and at the same time one of the most fascinating software platforms.
I don't even know what to compare it with.
Compare it to any consumer operating system. It puts a lot of power into the user's hands.
It would be great if these companies had enough good taste and pride in their work to at least try to build something great by default. What we get instead are minimum viable products built in the cheapest way possible and it takes a Google to force them out of their complacency by imposing policies.
To be fair, I would say a lot of this is a result of marketing/sales trying to push a lot of BS on the page, and managers or devs failing to push back.
Is the developer guily of creating a "ad bloated, video playing" webpage? Yes, a lot of them don't care and make it bloated, but even if you tried, you can't do much to improve the perfomance of a bad idea.
This has been an ongoing trend since ever, Viz. YSlow and Firebug Speed Tab.
Fuck Google, fuck amp
It's more to avoid bad networks not so your phone can load a page any better.
So let me understand this: Google allows OEM's to ship Android on shit hardware with terrible performance, is rightfully complained at for rubber-stamping hardware with no oversight, no standards of quality, and no requirements of suitably good UX, and then Google passes the burden of supporting the shit hardware they by-virtue-of-silence gave permission to onto a ton of unsuspecting content publishers, who now either face delisting from the dominant search engine not because their content is bad, but because their website requires resources not met by Google's, proxy, shit hardware? And you're okay with that?
I'm fine if supporting people with older and slower devices costs more development time for developers in Silicon Valley.
I was mildly disgusted when required reading for freshman orientation at Akron U included a book called Nickel and Dimed. The gist was something like "get your education or you're screwed". But people made it that way in the first place! Everyone supposedly needing formal higher education in order to have any decent future isn't something that just happens, it's something the human race is doing to itself. Leave it to a higher education institution to push the idea that "this is just the way it is, do the right thing if you know what's good for you".
edit: obvs I didn't read the book, it's not exactly like I said. I think I bought the book but dropped that "class" anyway
In a similar way, stupid "trends" like social media buttons and Like buttons are just examples of how everyone is ruining the web together. These days it's the aforementioned massive JS frameworks and SPAs and of course the obsession with "analytics." In a way it's nice for me and my workstation because it helps drive up the current average affordable densities of RAM and storage, but ...it's slavery. And Google seems to be less and less bashful about it.
"you are slaves of whatever you submit to by obeying" --that guy
It does, but it also means that RAM and storage isn't available to be used for other things. Think about what you could if you had current hardware back in the XP days...
But you apparently aren't okay with getting $50 worth of smartphone, since you're demanding a ton of companies you erroneously claim to be in California expend thousands of dollars in labor to support a framework they never agreed to support, have little to no say in how it's developed, in the name of a supposedly "open" web, so that you can have a good experience consuming content more than likely for free. That, to me at least, reeks of the worst kind of entitlement.
This is, in my mind, like buying a Tata Nano, which is a perfectly acceptable if limited car, and subsequently demanding all the road ways be limited to 65 mph, so that you don't feel slow. If you want to drive with the pace of traffic, the absolute cheapest car you can possibly buy brand new  is probably not what you want.
 That I'm aware of.
Developers don't need to put in more work to support cheap phones
You just have to install an ad-blocker, and you can surf the web lightning-fast on even an old, slow piece of crap phone
Most of the content (in time spent on it) is still text (remember what HTTP stands for?), and text takes hardly any processing power!
The solution to slow web pages isn't AMP, it's Firefox with an ad blocker. Google doesn't like this solution, obviously, but that's not my problem.
If you don't like Google AMP, it is fine.. (of course I too prefer to browse with only HTML & CSS whenever it works).. If you don't like low end hardware standards, it is fine.. But they have solved real world problems, whether first world problems or not. Not everything is black and white..
And just because you live in the US doesn't mean you can afford a top tier iPhone. That's why the secondary market is so hot for them.
> If you don't like Google AMP, it is fine..
I don't really care one way or the other.
> If you don't like low end hardware standards, it is fine..
I do take some issues with the fact that Google employs no standards at all for a baseline level of quality with their devices, and then places the burden of supporting those devices on others under threat of delisting.
> But they have solved real world problems, whether first world problems or not.
Ends do not always justify means. Lest we forget that the winner here is not limited to people with low end hardware getting to consume AMP content, it's also Google, who profits directly off of that consumption. And THAT is where I believe the ethical lapse is. Google isn't doing this so people can get content easily on low end hardware, they're doing it under the guise of that, while laughing to the bank as they're breathlessly defended by people who refuse to accept for some reason that Google is a business, and it acts in every way to forward it's business.
Just like Stadia is not Google setting out so that people who can't afford game consoles can still play the latest games, they are inserting themselves in a user's market so they can be the provider, and get that sweet, sweet engagement.
The right thing is to build good web sites. Publishers obviously don't care about doing it right and we ended up with system requirements for web sites as a result. Google is now making it expensive for them to not care. Publishers are not a blameless victim of Google's monopolistic power, they actively contributed to the current state of the web.
People should not need a $1000 phone to read a news article. The only situation where it's acceptable for web sites to not work on "shit hardware" is when it's a WebGL application. In those cases, people know that powerful hardware is required before they even load the page.
Also yeah I'm pretty happy that cheap smartphones are available for the masses to use. I have zero sympathy for content publishers with bloated websites.
but then don’t hate publishers.
Well, now there's an interesting complaint in this context. I thought Google was evil because they forced strategies on people, but now they're evil because they don't restrict hardware?
I think the collective web will eventually fix the problems without Google.
The root of the AMP issue is placement in Google’s search engine. Personally, I use DDG, and would be willing to pay a sizable subscription fee to keep it from being more like Google or from being acquired. But, most people probably would not - they are used to the web being “free”.
This is just another “embrace, extend, extinguish” effort, like the ones we have seen in the past. These attacks are transparently self-serving and should be “routed around”. It will require commitment to do so!
AMP is more than just cleaner and faster - it gives Google control. They could discriminate on cleaner and faster without it, but they purposefully don't mention that, since it would undercut the push for AMP.
Why? AMP is roughly speaking a subset of HTML that's somewhat easier to cache, and nothing more. Ideally it should be possible and encouraged to serve most webpages from a cache, to optimize Internet traffic on the global scale. It should be okay to fetch them from a cache without breaking anything. I don't see why the AMP Cache is hated so much. Publishers shouldn't care whether browsers hit their servers or some third-party cache, as long as they can have proper analytics. And guess what? AMP does provide a way to do proper analytics. You can even send analytics data to an in-house URL: https://amp.dev/documentation/components/amp-analytics/#send... I think most of the hate against AMP in unjustified. Any search engine could decide to cache AMP content. AMP in and of itself doesn't give search engines "more control" over the web (whatever that means), it just makes the web easier to cache for everyone, all search engines, all end-users.
Edit:  not only Google caches it, Bing does it too: https://blogs.bing.com/Webmaster-Blog/September-2018/Introdu...
> What's in a URL? On the web, a lot - URLs and origins represent, to some extent, trust and ownership of content. When you're reading a New York Times article, a quick glimpse at the URL gives you a level of trust that what you're reading represents the voice of the New York Times. Attribution, brand, and ownership are clear.
> the recent launch of AMP in Google Search [has] blurred this line
> Google AMP Viewer URL: The document displayed in an AMP viewer (e.g., when rendered on the search result page). https://www.google.com/amp/www.example.com/amp.doc.html
Google has inserted itself in the URL. Copy and paste that, submit it to reddit or Hacker News, or just read it to a friend, and what do you get? A connection to Google.
You can't even make the argument that AMP degrades privacy, because regardless of whether you click an AMP link or a non-AMP link in the search results, in both cases many search engines will ping back or use a redirect through a search engine-controlled domain, so they will be aware of the URL you click anyway, AMP or non-AMP.
I guess you're making a minor technical point, and it's technically correct. Someone else could do AMP better. But until someone does, why not shorten "Google's implementation of AMP" to simply "AMP"? Is there any other?
I agree that there is a UX problem to solve (the address bar should show the original URL, copying it should preserve the original URL, etc) but whether the webpage got loaded from the original site or from some AMP cache is irrelevant.
It looks like Bing has the same problem, and serves AMP from bing-amp.com.
Perhaps not, but as a regular web user, I care a lot about this.
I also want to avoid AMP pages themselves, and the URL is the easiest way to see if I've hit one or not.
If Google only cares about a faster, more semantic web, then why not just give an even bigger ranking boost to faster, more semantic websites? Where does the need for a new standard come in, other than to gain more control?"
The above is a comment found in the OP.
Is there a requirement that AMP sites host resources with Google?
If there is, then Google has hijacked the purported goal of of promoting websites that consume fewer client resources (and are therefore faster) -- arguably a worthy cause -- in order to promote the use of Google's own web servers, thereby increasing Google's data gathering potential.
If there is no such requirement, then is it practical for any website to host an AMP-compliant site, without using Google web servers?
If not, then AMP sure looks a lot like an effort to get websites to host more resources on Google web servers and help generate more data for Google.
1. When I use the term "web servers" in this comment I mean servers that host any resource, e.g., images, scripts, etc., that is linked to from within a web page (and thus automatically accessed by popular graphical web browsers such as Chrome, Safari, Firefox, Edge, etc.)
Bing's AMP cache doesn't load any resources from Google.
Currently, there are two AMP Cache providers:
* Google AMP Cache
* Bing AMP Cache
AMP is an open ecosystem and the AMP Project actively encourages the development of more AMP Caches. To learn about creating AMP Caches, see the AMP Cache Guidelines.
How do I choose an AMP Cache?
As a publisher, you don't choose an AMP Cache, it's actually the platform that links to your content that chooses the AMP Cache (if any) to use."
The above is from amp.dev, formerly ampproject.org
As the dominant search engine/web portal (excuse me, "platform"), already having the largest web cache and the infrastructure to maintain it, it looks like Google therefore becomes the dominant AMP cache as well.
Dominant AMP cache is a meaningless concept. You as the link aggregator have to have your own AMP cache to implement instant loading.
You lost me there. By "link" you mean URL?
Doesn't matter. Google will penalise against not AMP sites. Let's not pretend there's a choice if you want people to find your content.
Here is more information on how to file a complaint: https://ec.europa.eu/competition/contacts/electronic_documen...
If you believe Google engages in anti-competitive practices with AMP, you have the power to signal these issues, which may result in an investigation.
You can also share your concerns with a simple email to email@example.com.
> You can report your concerns by e-mail to firstname.lastname@example.org. Please indicate your name and address, identify the firms and products concerned and describe the practice you have observed. This will help the Commission to detect problems in the market and be the starting point for an investigation.
and they did nothing, I doubt they even study the case, nothing was on the table of the parliament related to this. Google have continued to abuse and will do more if no one stops them. It's important to complain again and again until they step in.
Orrrrrr just give me a damn option to turn it off, if I want. I will never understand why companies force people into these types of major UX decisions on their behalf. Stop assuming every user is stupid. Sure, make it the default, I don't care about that for the everyday user, but for something as fundamental as the browser, I should have an option to turn off every single Google opinion they bake in.
Posts pasted from other people frequently have AMP - guess I should suggest a better search engine to them.
I use it on my phone anyway, but I wind up using `!g` all the time.
(yes, I made this same complaint on the DDG topic just a couple days ago)
random example: My girlfriend lost her laptop in airport security, and I wanted to find a picture of the specific scratch-and-sniff sticker she put on it for the claim form. Duck Duck Go search for "glossier blackberry sticker" didn't find it; Google Images did, first try.
* this turned out to be a good move, I got a positive response from TSA within minutes
That's one of the reasons that I'm glad that I stopped using Google search. I've always hated location-aware searches.
EDIT: interesting, never thought such a comment would get a downvote... Google brigade?
It breaks more than one of the site guidelines to post like this. Would you mind reviewing them and following them when posting here?
I still haven't brought myself to use it on my laptop, but I do use Bing on Vivaldi (I use Opera, Vivaldi, FF Dev Edition, Opera Dev Edition, and Chrome Canary - the first two for everyday browsing, and the rest for dev-ing. I use google in Opera, and Bing in Vivaldi).
Using search engines other than Google is a nice change of pace, even if not solely to avoid AMP pages.
It's not for everyone, as it requires running your own webserver, but I use Tiny Tiny RSS to aggregate the feeds of the various sources I'm interested in, then can read the aggregated feeds (I have multiple, a different feed for each general subject) through the web interface and/or by using an RSS reader. I use an RSS reader (gReader) on my mobile devices to do this.
As an end user, AMP gets in my way and complicates my experience. There's extra work to figure out what's going on. This page is from whatever site but "delivered by Google". As an end user, my reaction is basically: what the hell does that mean, why is it here wasting my time and cluttering up my screen, and when can Google cut it out?
Then sometimes I go to share a link with a friend over Slack or whatever, I hit the share button, and the URL comes out all fucked up. I know they're going to look at the URL to figure out what it's about (because in the real world, people do look at URLs), so I feel compelled to fix it, so I have to back up out of there, then dig around in the UI to figure out how to get a real URL. Maybe "open in chrome" will do it, or maybe I need to flip through the page itself to find where it gives a link to itself. I can never remember what works, and I don't want to have to.
I know AMP pages are supposed to load faster, and they probably do a little, but I would gladly trade that for simplicity.
Also, I would turn it off if they would give me the option, which wouldn't be hard but they don't, which tells me they don't want people turning it off.
I get all the arguments against AMP, but "annoying for users" surely isn't one of them.
(1) Google doesn't intervene at all, web sites are full of bloat
(2) Google requires mobile sites to not suck if they want decent rankings
(3) Google requires mobile sites to not suck and also delivers the bits instead of the site's servers.
I agree that #1 is not a good state of affairs. I'm fine with Google pressuring mobile developers to create sites that perform well. I just prefer #2 over #3.
But it is: there's the AMP chrome around the website.
Sure it is. It's certainly not annoying for all users, but it is annoying for some, including myself.
AMP gives little guys, the ones starting blogs and trying to grow, a shot at freedom of speech. The web was developing in a way that the big players like BBC and CNN would dominate with big budget winner-take-all walled gardens. AMP is one of Google's most anti establishment services, which means I'm sure Ruth will be killing it very soon!
This meant Google search on the mobile web was literally dying. Every year more and more content was being locked inside walled Gardens!! I was a maintainer of AMPHTML 2015 - 2018 at Google. The project is hibernating and loses a ton of money I know I worked on the budgets for flash memory for AMP. At the time Facebook and others were proposing proprietary non HTML news document formats. Google, to keep HTML alive, decided to cache amp for free, which subsidized hosting costs for ALL news websites. I hate it that now I have to switch browsers 2x to write an article comment, too! But news apps NEVER supported this AT ALL!! News apps NEVER supported a working search feature AT ALL!! News apps NEVER supported a good user experience or global search AT ALL!
If you want to rant, blame the bloatware mess that is HTML, it has almost at killed The mobile web, not AMP! AMP is Google's attempt to keep HTML alive on phones ...
> AMP gives little guys, the ones starting blogs and trying to grow, a shot at freedom of speech.
woosh, i now realize u re joking
While this might not be a problem with most Apple-toting frontend engineers, most people of the world can't afford to constantly pay for very expensive phones just to browse the web. And until AMP there just wasn't a way to make anyone care it seems. Even here on HN.
Just to be clear: I dislike AMP. But I dislike the crap attitude towards users the web developers have shown time and time again more.
I must be crazy because i never had a catastrophic issue with an iphone 8 - with an adblocker. If ads are the problem, well guess who is serving those ads.
AMP doesn't even scale anyway - it will bloat like HTML pages bloat over time, because web ppl have a bad habit of only adding things to sites, not removing. What happens then? We invent Amp-html2 to fix amp? AMP is a very-ill-thought bandaid to a culture problem that can be solved with simple nudges (have people forgotten what seismic changes happen to the web every time google rolls out a new SEO algorithm?). Amp s probably the silliest tech idea of the decade.
Did you try browsing the non-AMP web on something like Nexus 4? Motorola Moto E? Oppo and Xiaomi lowend units from 2015?
The question is - what can the web community do to make AMP redundant outside of complaint posts.
First, AMP is already redundant. it doesnt offer anything that stripped-down html can't do. The primary reason sites choose it is because google ranks the pages higher! it's purely coercive.
Second , it's not as if AMP has taken over the web. But this coercion has to stop. Third, it's real easy to make a faster website with 10 minutes of work. I 'm not sure we need some kind of activism to stop amp i do believe it will crash on its own as soon as most sites look exactly alike and start losing revenues. But until then ... maybe ban AMP links?
Because the vast majority of websites are reasonably fast on mobile? Loading times of 1,2 or 5 seconds are a non-problem that amp is addressing. The worst offenders i see are too high res images and autoplay videos, but frankly i cant remember seeing any of those recently. Most blogs/news sites are fine. Where is google sourcing their data that users are desperate for web-breaking solutions that bring them 200msec response times? The purpose of AMP is so that people flick a website instantly and then go back to google. That's obviously not in the interest of the publishers. The whinefest is because google is actively prioritizing amp publishers thus forcing it on the web.
> Coercion is exactly what's needed to push
this is not a defensible statement
> a world-class CDN that many website owners
facebook needs a world-class cdn, not blogs.
> a clear, marketable incentive to develop a mobile-efficient websit
the "marketable incentive" is the de-ranking of the site. It's entirely unnecessary to force amp for that, a simple page speed deranking would do
Google has applied performance penalties to sites before and it still does. It's not enough, and there are limits to the penalties they can apply because these websites are ultimately very useful and relevant, it would worsen search quality to derank useful but bloated websites. The carousel is a good balance of incentive and penalty.
Seriously, nothing is going to kill the mobile web more than Google continuing to overreach and use bait-and-switch tactics on publishers. Oh, sure, AMP is good for the "google-mobile-web experience", but bad for an open web.
(I would have written an iOS Safari extension that bypasses AMP years ago if Apple supported such a thing…)
Not just for logged in users, for all users. Really, if Google provided some way to avoid getting AMP pages (through a cookie or something), I would have no problems with it.
> AMP is one of Google's most anti establishment services
You're either writing satire I don't get, or work for Google.
How exactly does a walled garden give you free speech? Especially when it's provided by who profit the most from you not leaving said garden? While also forcing you to bypass standard practices?
Utter nonsense, unless it's a joke I'm not getting.
The author of this article is pretty much praising the bloatware mess that we have and wants more. I'm also puzzled.
To an end user, this article just gave the best highlights about AMP.
It looks like the exact opposite of that to me. This is Google's attempt at remaking the web in a way the enhances Google's control and power. That's pretty pro-establishment.
Pushing them to have cleaner and faster websites makes the user stay on the web. It is a clear benefit for Google, but to his point, to the user too. (At least that was the goal)
It was the third party ad networks that caused performance issues on the news sites, as well as distributing malware.
There were alot of Flash ads for awhile, as well.
Definitely an issue prior to 2015.
In fact, it’s only the massive news sites that have the developer time to support AMP, meanwhile the little guy has to play around with terrible Wordpress plugins and spend hours fiddling with it just so Google will properly crawl their site.
And don’t even get me started on static site generators. AMP support is shoddy at best and a giant PITA for 99% of static site generators. Wordpress is one of the main reasons the web is so slow, yet AMP gives power to Wordpress since it’s the only way non-technical blog owners can support AMP.
AMP forces small time blogs and content sites to waste time building two versions of their website to rank alongside the big boys. How does this help the little guy?
That's a funny way to spell advertising.
As long as the big guys aren't on AMP yet. But an overlooked tradeoff is that the little guys are forced to play by Google's rules in terms of how and where they display ads, even the ones that aren't sourced by Google's ad network. It creates a completely uniform policy that undeniably benefits the scale of Google. A small publisher simply cannot differentiate their ad offerings. If you view that as a good thing for the end user, that's fine, but it's certainly not in favor of the little guy. Little guys depend on differentiation in every area of their business to effectively carve out a niche against a giant like Google's ad network.
AMP is just a step above the top results boxes Google puts on the results page that are scraped from other websites. See the other front page article about Google repeatedly stealing Genius lyrics.
Google shouldn’t become the new AOL.
Of course, there might be a wrinkle or two. How do you propose to evaluate the size of a page when large amounts of something like a newspaper article is loaded by reference, dynamic, and depends on third parties making independent run-time decisions? How can you know a page's size won't vary 50% minute-to-minute in a world like ours? And how can you meaningfully measure load time in such a context?
You're absolutely right. Page size and speed could absolutely be better ways to do this! It's just maybe possible that there could be some minor obstacles to doing so.
You downrank them immediately because that's slow.
Of course, there might be an issue here because the amount of things that work that way is huge. So now you have a scenario where everyone is angry at Google for trying to dictate how they can build web pages and writing angry digital polemics about how this is an unreasonable standard and abuse of power. Nobody actually wants to re-implement massive chunks of how their website works, so everyone will resent this incredibly artificial imposition.
Which is to say it's a wonderfully straightforward answer, but perhaps not better than AMP in practice.
But we're already doing that because Google downranks results that don't use AMP. We're generally OK with Google downranking sites on actual metrics (such as HTTPS) but not when they're pushing their "solution" that clearly has a number of issues with conflict of interest.
Personally, I prefer AMP for security reasons. It's tightly restrictive and does a lot to limit the available space to mount attacks aimed at browsers. But I understand that's far down most people's lists, and tends to fall under the same sentiment as "devs should just write fast websites".
Again, please accept my apologies for my failure to communicate my point clearly.
Quick reminder that the only way to do captchas in AMP is to use Google ReCaptcha.
There are a lot of reasons to hate AMP, but one big reason I hope doesn't get drowned out is that it's not just anticompetitive in the sense of handing control of traffic or hosting to Google. It's anticompetitive in the sense of reducing functionality on the web to a handful of large corporations that have every incentive to reduce diversity and place harsher performance restrictions on competitors than they place on themselves.
That is terrible. ReCaptcha is the worst. Also, ReCaptcha seems to discriminate against Firefox, and if AMP discriminates against other captchas, this might actually count as monopolistic abuse by EU rules.
For any user that navigates to your AMP page from a Google search...
The publisher gives up the most important piece of screen real estate, and Google highjacks left/right swipes to navigate to your competitors. And, they hijack the back button post swipe too...back equals "back to Google"...not back to the page I swiped from.
It is pretty much like early AOL. A semi walled garden. It offers some speed benefit for users, but way more benefit to Google.
But that has the advantage of making it easier to find the real page rather than the AMP page.
It's just AMP with some crypto that lets Google masquerade as your domain.
Or maybe you have some notable examples of SXG being used in a production non-AMP scenario?
"make sure you are visiting mybanksite.com" is no longer safe.
Sounds like you don't trust public key based content signing. This is just broadening public key based signatures beyond the domain to include the domain and the content itself, and using signing to make the authenticity of the content independent of the physical infrastructure that served it.
That' what's being used here to verify authenticity of content's source, just like PGP/GPG does for signed emails.
That's a far stronger guarantee than "the data is authentic because it came IP address range X purchased by company Y".
In fact, without a such signature, there is no guarantee that just because a piece of content came from a particular server/datacenter, that it is authentic.
With signed exchanges, the chain of authenticity is pushed all the way back to the website's content creators - it doesn't stop at the web server. Also, this can't be phished unless you break the the content signing algorithms, and if that happens ... we all have bigger problems.
one may manage to upload an html file to the bank's server and serve a -signed- page that google amp will cache, and then use it to phish customers from within the bank's domain. Or just use a stolen key to make thousands of such pages before the bank finds out. I think , contrary to what you say, it's a brand new, major attack surface.
By this definition, "host" hasn't been a host in a long time, since the time it was possible to route DNS traffic to multiple IP addresses, possibly in different datacenters.
> it breaks user's expectation of one of the VERY FEW things that everyday users understand about the internet.
How is signing content directly less authentic than signing only at the web server? Signing content directly at the time of publishing ensures that it was created using the private keys of the entity in question, regardless of the delivery mechanism for the content.
> one may manage to upload an html file to the bank's server and serve a -signed- page that google amp will cache,
Signed content exchanges specifically limit that by putting the content signing step at the content creator level, not the web server level. Unless you steal the content creator's private keys, you can't represent your content as theirs.
Does SXG make this better or worse?
> ensures that it was created using the private keys
signing at the server ensures that it was created using the key AND served from a host they control. How is that not better?
> you can't represent your content
wouldn't the server sign all http responses by default? all you would need to do is upload a file
No, the content has to be signed when it is created, in the content management system or similar content creation tool, not when the server sends it. The content management system itself must have strong controls on it (ACLs, controlled user accounts, protected private keys stored only on encrypted and access controlled media, regular audits, etc).
Basically the server itself is no longer trusted as the arbiter of content authenticity, the actual content creator is. Concretely, when the editor at a publication approves an article after reviewing it, it is signed for delivery at the moment of publication, not at the moment that the request is served.
what happens if someone's key is stolen and they need to re-issue it? All the previously published copies are now invalid?
Really, how so? RFC 3986 goes out of it's way to make clear that the "host" component doesn't mean DNS, and doesn't even have to denote a host.
"In other cases, the data within the host component identifies a registered name that has nothing to do with an Internet host."
"A URI resolution implementation might use DNS, host tables, yellow pages, NetInfo, WINS, or any other system for lookup of registered names."
> it breaks user's expectation of one of the FEW things that everyday users understand about the internet.
What, exactly and concretely, is that expectation?
> one may manage to upload an html file to the bank's server and serve a -signed- page that google amp will cache, and then use it to phish customers from within the bank's domain.
If the attacker can upload arbitrary pages to the bank's website, just why would they need signed exchanges? They've already got their phishing page on the correct domain.
the RFC uses the word "host" and not "signer". It also says that the "host" is intented to be looked up in some service registry, and there is no such thing for arbitrary signers.
> exactly and concretely, is that expectation
One of the common security advice banks used to give is "check your browser address that you are in our server"
> just why would they need signed exchanges
with signed exchanges they can fool amp to cache the page long after it has been deleted from the server
> One of the common security advice banks used to give is "check your browser address that you are in our server"
So you say that everyday users have an expectation that they're "in the bank's server"? That doesn't seem very concrete, since that could mean anything. Surely there is some kind of expectation they have about actual behavior or property. Something that will happen / can't happen right now, but the opposite with signed exchanges.
> Anyone who has the file can intercept the form data from that page now - a complete phishing attack.
Uhh... And just how would they do that? They can't inject anything into the page, and they can't modify the page. How do you figure they force the browser to submit the form to the wrong server?
assuming that someone finds a way to sign a malicious Html page (e.g. by sneaking into the editors office) they can serve it from anywhere, and the browser will pretend it's coming from the bank
" in our server" is a simplification of the technical explanation: "signed by our computers using our private keys before delivery to you". That is still maintained in the case of signed content exchange, but instead the transport function is provided by a different server.
It's not much different than, i.e. signing a compiled app with your private keys before uploading it to an app store. Such apps also use hosts to identify themselves and their content, even though they are delivered via app-store mechanisms.
Please try to explain that to an everyday grandma.
I still dont' see how it's an improvement. The file can be masqueraded by an arbitrary server god knows where and still be served as valid to me. Anyone who has the file can intercept the form data from that page now - a complete phishing attack. There are so many things that can go horribly wrong it just makes one wonder what's wrong with googlers these days: https://blog.intelx.io/2019/04/15/a-new-type-of-http-client-...
Only if you have the bank's private key, and the ability to serve arbitrary content from the bank's domain. In which case... yeah, I don't see how the signed exchanges standard makes that problem significantly worse.
Nobody benefits from this shit than google. Do we really need more attack surfaces?
On a broader note, this also sounds like it could be used to allow caching proxies to work with https; you'd lose the privacy, but you'd gain from being able to cache content on local network if the browser only had to verify the content, and you trusted the cache not to spy on you.
If the goal is to get around the AMP CDN, you don't even need to read the main page content. The AMP URL contains the original source URL itself .
The extension you are describing would just need to capture all requests with the prefix https://www.google.com/amp (or whatever CDN you are trying to get around), parse out the original URL, and then fetch it, and do what you will with it.
If the goal is to disable scripting on the AMP CDN delivered content, first note that AMP pages can't contain page-author-written JS , and any implicit JS has to run async.
But if that's insufficient, you can disable JS in the browser altogether, which would disable it in the loaded AMP content.
You could also try to parse out the main content from your extension from the AMP page if you know from the URL that it's an AMP page. Because AMP's forces relative terseness and simplicity of HTML content, it is probably easier to parse than original page's content. Obviously that won't generalize easily given the large variety of possible of content representations, but you stand a better chance of achieving this with AMP content than the original content.
And if you generalize it enough, you will end up with one component of a web crawl / indexing system in an extension ;)
The other critical components are:
encryption so middleboxes can’t see what you’re looking at
guarantee (via the PKI) that the server you’re about to send your banking credentials to is using a cert that belongs to the domain name in the address bar that you trust sending your credentials to.
The purpose of SXG is to allow publisher signing of edge-cache accelerated public content - i.e. it's read-only - not to encrypt private information like credentials in transport. Https still handles encrypted transport independently of SXG.
Also, why or how would someone create a system that accepted private info or credentials via signed SXG anyways? There's literally no mechanism in it to achieve that. If you tried to build a password entry field for your bank website and distributed it via SXG, it wouldn't even work in the first place.
Is there a rule that SXG content can't contain forms or sth?
SXG doesn't answer DNS requests for your domain. It only says that a particular piece of content has been signed using private keys that have been registered with the displayed host. That's it.
In fact, you don't even need a CDN or DNS to distribute SXG content. You could distribute it via USB drives, or code flags, USB drives attached to messenger pigeons, whatever. The point is that authenticity of the origin of the content is completely independent of how the content got to you.
When that SXG content, however it is distributed, is rendered, the browser represents that content as originating from your domain, which is in fact exactly where it originated.
I really don’t understand why the browser would masquerade the url just because the content is signed. At best it is able to say ‘the content is signed with x’s key’
That's true, but it's completely independent of SXG. There's no way to trick SXG into showing a URL that it's not signed for. You would have to steal the private keys.
> At best it is able to say ‘the content is signed with x’s key’
Remember that x's key is cryptographically associated with their domain - that's how web certs work - so the browser can also say that "this content is signed with domain x's key". That's exactly what happens with https today, but with https, the chain of attribution implied by the signature stops at the webserver, since it holds the private keys for signing the content.
SXG allows the chain of attribution to be completely independent of the transport mechanism, https or otherwise. Of course, you should still use https to encrypt during data transmission over the internet, but that's orthogonal to content signing.
This is also directly analogous to how app stores distribute cryptographically signed apps. For example, it allows an iPhone to open a local native iOS app in response to a URL click in web content : The app and the URL are both cryptographically signed by the same entity, so iOS can conclude that they are from the same origin, and allow the app to handle the URL.
Even app stores don't do that - if you download a signed app from any domain, it won't pretend it s downloaded from apple.com but it will report that its signed from Apple Inc. The situation is not analogous anyway because there are very few app stores from 3-4 highly trusted corporates. If any of their app store private keys are stolen the internet is fucked.
Browsers "pretend" exactly this every time they download a page via HTTPS. It's how HTTPS works. Did you think that they trust that the content comes from the correct source by just doing a reverse DNS lookup on the IP address? They don't. Instead, they check a signature from the web server against their cert keystore, and if the PKI signature check fails, you get a big scary warning that the connection isn't secure/private. The same thing would happen with SXG based content if the signature didn't match the keystore, except the signature to be checked is carried with the content itself, just like with PGP/GPG.
> Even app stores don't do that - if you download a signed app from any domain, it won't pretend it s downloaded from apple.com but it will report that its signed from Apple Inc.
I just checked an iPhone, and they appear to attribute an app to the creator, not Apple, Inc.
But the reason they don't show a download domain is because consumer iOS apps can only be downloaded from Apple, from the App Store, and nowhere else. Adding the information about download source information to the iOS UI would be totally redundant as the value would always be 'downloads.apple.com' or whatever.
If you look at the actual cert signing procedure for iOS apps, the configuration step includes the domain, which is why Apple can associate an entity's apps with it's https websites. Nonetheless, the apps are still signed by the app's creator, not Apple, and the app's creator is responsible for securing the private keys 
> The situation is not analogous anyway because there are very few app stores from 3-4 highly trusted corporates.
Why should only the 3-4 big corporates be the only entities who can sign or distribute apps or static web content? They are not the only entities capable of securing private keys. Banks do it all the time, as do individual app developers (note the warnings to app developers about private key management on Apple's website). They are also not the only entities capable of distributing content. App and content stores can provide many other services of added value, like aggregation and curation and payment systems, but signing and distributing content isn't one of those services they can uniquely provide.
You could even argue that distributing the ability to sign and distribute content away from the big corporations reduces single points of failure and makes the whole content distribution ecosystem more robust and fault tolerant.
> Browsers "pretend" exactly this every time they download a page via HTTPS.
yeah and the big scary warnings are for the connection, not the content. currently browsers tie url host to DNS so the semantics are different, so the cert certifies the distributor. I also think this is only true for certs that don't have an organization name, at least i think that , for extended-validation SSL they still show this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Firefox_...
> and they appear to attribute an app to the creator, not Apple, Inc.
indeed , i meant that they attribute the app to Apple Inc as the creator, but not their domain, which is again, different semantics. (although i suppose apple is somehow involved in ensuring that the correct binary is distributed for every developer)
> Why should only the 3-4 big corporates
i m obviously not saying they should , but that it's not analogous situation, with their walled gardens and all. the web is nobody's a walled garden and a large part of the content is public domain which doesnt need any signing. that s why app store logic doesnt apply.
> reduces single points of failure
that 's what software hosts already do with providing hashes for binaries. and it's great that sxg can verify content through the browser. but it shows where the content was created, not where it was distributed , thats why i think it's wrong to change the URL
there is also a laundry list of dangers that they introduce that seem pretty serious for something that is being pushed forward for basically cosmetic reasons: https://blog.intelx.io/2019/04/15/a-new-type-of-http-client-...
If I'm offline and I open an offline cached page in my browser, would you call it a lie if the browser displays the URL I originally downloaded that page from in the URL bar instead of saying it came from "your hard drive"?
"Mozilla has concerns about the shift in the web security model required for handling web-packaged information. Specifically, the ability for an origin to act on behalf of another without a client ever contacting the authoritative server is worrisome, as is the removal of a guarantee of confidentiality from the web security model (the host serving the web package has access to plain text). We recognise that the use cases satisfied by web packaging are useful, and would be likely to support an approach that enabled such use cases so long as the foregoing concerns could be addressed."
Mozilla has the proposal marked as "harmful".
Apple/Webkit have concerns as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19679621
That doesn't sound "highly opposed" to me.
Anyway, I read the full report from Mozilla back when they first published it, and while they do have some valid concerns (any new feature introduced to the web will necessarily introduce some new attack surfaces) I believe their concerns are already sufficiently well addressed by the standard.
The paragraph from Mozilla that you quoted is also rather vague and misleading. In particular:
> the ability for an origin to act on behalf of another without a client ever contacting the authoritative server is worrisome
This is super vague. I see no reason why that should be "worrisome". That sort of thing happens all the time in public key cryptography. When you receive a message signed with the private key of a trusted actor, it's perfectly reasonable to trust that the trusted actor authorized that message regardless of where the message itself came from. TLS itself already does exactly that every time you visit a website over HTTPS (your browser trusts certificates signed by a trusted CA, even though those certificates are being presented by an untrusted website, not the CA itself).
> as is the removal of a guarantee of confidentiality from the web security model
This concern is completely unfounded, and I'm surprised Mozilla included it in their summary. The use of the signed exchange standard doesn't reveal any information to any party that would not already have access to that information without the standard (a host serving you a link to a static, public page will necessarily already have access to the plaintext content of that page, regardless of whether they serve you that content themselves or not).
They marked the proposal as "harmful", and it remains marked that way.
I wasn't trying to exaggerate. I could cite other passages that support "highly opposed".
Mozilla did publish a pretty extensive document that explains their position and plans: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ha00dSGKmjoEh2mRiG8FIA5s...
The more detailed summary in the full report says:
> There is a lot to consider with web packaging. Many of the technical concerns are relatively minor. There are security problems, but most are well managed. There are operational concerns, but those can be overcome. It’s a complex addition to the platform, but we can justify complication in exchange for significant benefits.
> Big changes need strong justification and support. This particular change is bigger than most and presents a number of challenges. The increased exposure to security problems and the unknown effects of this on power dynamics is significant enough that we have to regard this as harmful until more information is available.
> We’re actively working to understand this technology better. The Internet Architecture Board are organizing a workshop that aims to gather information about the bigger questions. That workshop is specifically structured to collect input from the publishing community. The technical details of the proposal will also be discussed at upcoming IETF meetings. Based on what we learn through these processes and our own investigation, we might be able to revise this position.
That doesn't sound "harmful" to me, it just sounds like they're skeptical, and possibly a bit confused. The meat of their concerns also seem to be primarily political, not technical.
Last I understood, Apple had similar concerns. I find it unlikely that both of those orgs are making noise for no good reason.
Let's try a different approach. How about this: I've carefully read over both the spec itself and everything Apple and Mozilla have to say on the matter (that I was able to find anyway), and have come to an informed conclusion: both Apple and Mozilla are wrong. (That's actually a rather poor, oversimplified summary of my position. But no moreso than "harmful" is a poor, oversimplified summary of Mozilla's position.)
You are making an argument from authority. I consider myself sufficiently well informed on this particular topic to be making arguments based on facts and reason. I don't find you repeatedly citing a one-word summary of Mozilla's position on the matter (which is actually quite nuanced, and not at all able to be summed up by a single word) to be particularly convincing.
One of those 6 labels is "non-harmful". It's it isn't harmful, that seems right. Here's the legend:
"Mozilla does not see this specification as harmful, but is not convinced that it is a good approach or worth working on."
Mozilla didn't choose that label.
My view is that the proposal was driven by a desire to make AMP less icky. It looks like it could have broader benefit if the concerns Mozilla outlined are addressed. I am skeptical Google will do that.
As for your characterization of yourself as "well informed" and me as, er, something else...really? Was that necessary?
It's a lie because the URL being displayed does not reflect the source of the bits.
> If I'm offline and I open an offline cached page in my browser, would you call it a lie if the browser displays the URL I originally downloaded that page from
That's a bit of a gray area. Yes, it is a lie (the browser should provide an indication of the actual source of the bits). On the other hand, the cache was created by you and exists on your own machine, so it's more of a little white lie in that case.
As such, all you needed to do to get similar rankings was use any sort of CDN hosting for your page and you would get similar results to using AMP.
Also, it sorta seems to me like the author is complaining, "I can't just do a minimum effort AMP page for the search juice, I actually have to make a functional AMP offering or not use AMP at all." Strictly as a consumer, I feel like maybe Google is doing me a favor while telling off a publisher.
Doing all that replicates what AMP does.
If you make a living from a content site, you have to play ball and create AMP versions of all your pages.
OR, you can choose to lose to your competitors. Let’s stop pretending like that’s really a choice, or that any sizable share of users will ever switch to DuckDuckGo.
This is where we need government to step in and regulate Google’s de facto monopoly on search.
I'd be more inclined to side with publishers here if AMP was the only way to get this. But as an awful lot of content sites are run by folks very mad that they can't run their own invasive tracking and analytics, my sympathy is limited.
I haven't seen a single non-AMP article there, and I've been checking for a year.
The second part is correct. I hate Reddit AMP results, and I'm happy that Google is telling them to fix it. I'll be even happier when they and other search engines demote Reddit AMP pages that do not match the canonical pages.
Is there some kind of real news about Reddit AMP changing, specifically? I don't see that in the link.