At least for me, that's a time-to-leave signal.
Teams biggest "Feature" is that is part of the Office 364 Suite, a lot of the layout and other issues are simply forgiven since there are no additional licensing or costs to use it over Slack if you are already on Office 364 Enterprise
Teams is "good enough" for most organizations and is improving,
That is microsoft current plan, be "good enough"
Out of curiosity, what do you think of the Stylish userscript that enables a compact mode in Teams and offers dark and light themes?
I still prefer an App instead of the browser, but that's just personal preference.
Teams is free as part of an Office 365 subscription (just like Sharepoint and all the other crap they bundle with it), which is what definitely makes it an existential threat to Slack, because now Slack is competing with Microsoft's very strong Office monopoly.
The fact that you can create a group with some channels, add your files there and edit them together, have a wiki, have a (not very good) kanban board etc. makes it a pretty complete experience. Some of the tools they release needs more polish and some tools are by themselves much worse than stand alone competitors but having everything in one is pretty nice.
Then there is sharepoint, oh, and onedrive, and they all come in the same package so everyone uses something else.
At a previous company, we had slack and MS Teams side by side, to trial out MS Teams. Everyone preferred Slack by a huge margin. We were told to get use to Teams, because Teams is free.
Guess what, it was fine.. no notable productivity lose going from slack to teams. If anything, team's sharepoint file integration is much better than slack, for keeping a single source of truth.
The Android app in particular has trouble. And muting is all-or-nothing.
I've also had corrupted channels, I even escalated to Microsoft once.
Doesn't matter, since it comes with Office so it basically costs $0.
It's crap, but that's not stopping my employer from replacing literally everything they can with it. Even our desk phones, purportedly.
So if that is indeed the case here, then it does indicate some problems.
I’m amazed that I’m still talking about this :)
Not only is that a miserable experience, but I think it's also a recipe for a product that only gets worse.
That's the over reaction part. The fact that two engineers feels uncomfortable expressing their feelings, says very little about the culture or values in their company.
It could be that they are just too introverted or insecure to speak up about most things, or that they have a good relationship with the fellow engineers in that other team, and don't feel like ruining it by telling them, that their contributions to the product sucks.
But that's not what was said. It was correctly described as a possible management problem, a signal. If your notion is that one should leave at the first signal, that's something you bring to it.
Anyhow, we have evidence that the problem is more widespread. It's obvious from the HN reaction that quite a lot of people hate this feature, engineers especially. But still it was released. If you want to hypothesize a situation that makes that unimportant, you have to dream up a lot more than two extremely insecure engineers.
Terrible UI choice. It makes no sense.
Don't get me wrong, the "you'll get an answer" is almost always the same "thank you for your input" but at least it creates a Zendesk ticket from a paying customer, in contrast to whining on HN or Twitter, where I am about dead certain no corporate OKR is influenced
Now the behaviour is to ask you every time to apply formatting. There is an option for "don't ask again" which I tried assuming it would make autoformatting the default, but it turns off the behaviour completely with no way to get it back!
Unfortunately it must be done every time, no autoformatting by default it seems.
Still...I could have swore I had tried that anyway. Huh.
The trick seems to be to add a blank final line, otherwise, it will not include the last line you typed in a code block.
> * My quoted bullet point
Glad my only use is a comms channel for my Ingress group.
The concept seems to originate from Netscape's CEO and the acronym exists since 2006, according HiPPO FAQ: http://bitly.com/HIPPOExplained
And where the link goes to, obviously. No idea if this counts toward the Bitly link open rate.
1) don’t need to be logged in for the + to work
2) I’ve not seen it increment the clicks by visiting the + stats page, but can’t speak authoritatively on that.
High Importance Person Pushing Own (desires??)?
It is usually used when a company has no actual data to work on and therefore goes with the "obvious" as defined by "the boss" (Hippo).
Not that it is necessarily true. There could be lots of data that some people are not aware of and that only senior people are privy to, but if that is not shared with the team developing the software then that is in itself not a great sign.
The only way I know how to make a good design, is to have a good Product Owner. Prototyping helps a little bit, User testing absolutely not. You can have five different PO working on the same epic and still get a bad design, but it only takes one to find the perfect solution.
That input box story is not different. They could have made the WYSIWYG feature compatible with the "old" input method by changing the visual without altering the character flow (eg: The <star>brown<star> fox). Apparently, no one thought of that...
If I'm imagining it correctly, it should work like this:
writing `help` will render it inline. A rendered `help`^H becomes an un-rendered `help
The rendering doesn't need to show the backticks, but it seems to me that it's perfectly reasonable to have it exist from the text-editing perspective.
The real problem might be that hitting <star><star>help<star><star><LEFT_KEY> can either move invisibly between one of the two stars (technically correct), or jump a star to place the cursor just after p (visually correct).
I would think the best solution is to have all editing keys (eg backspace, delete, insert-then-type) be technically correct, and all movement keys (eg arrow keys) be visually correct.
I think this is also how Typora does its markdown rendering, which was functionally intuitive in my experience (I stopped using it because it slowed down severely with any file larger than like 300 characters, so a worthless text editor, but UI-wise it worked well)
It really resonated with my thoughts, how I've viewed the tech world and my (tiny) part in it.
We really appreciate your feedback, and we hear your frustration. We're sorry for the impact this is having on your ability to communicate with your team and on your overall productivity. We made a mistake by forcing everyone into this feature without providing an opt-out for customers like you: people for whom the existing behavior was working just fine.
We've started working on a preference that will let you return to the previous message composer. We don't have a specific release date to share right now — it's this team's top and only priority, however, and we expect to have it available on the desktop within a couple of weeks, with Android following shortly thereafter.
We will follow up with another note when this option is available to you, and we'll include instructions on how to enable it.
Again, we're sorry for the disruption and we're grateful for the feedback. We missed the mark on this feature! We will do our best to learn from this and avoid similar mistakes in the future.
That seems completely unfounded to me. WYSIWYG editors can be extremely bad … but millions of people use WYSIWYG editors all the time and wouldn’t ever think of exchanging them for plaintext editors with Markdown or something like that.
You comment seems completely disconnected from any semblance of reality.
Best for new users and advanced ones.
If you have BOTH in one editor it's like you've built some kind of Vim-like UI that randomly jumps between modes, it will confuse the shit out of everybody all the time!
That being said, also Microsoft Teams is pretty awful when it comes to `code highlighting`. I haven't exactly figured out why it sometimes renders and sometimes not, it usually works when appending the ` to a letter and then pressing space, but not in other cases.
Just because BigCorps fail to deliver a good solution and then shove it down the user's throat anyway, it's not a bad idea per se. I'd love to have Google Docs & Slides with WYSIWIG Markdown.
Otherwise, ProseMirror supports both WYSIWIG and Markdown, and toggling between those two modes. Look:
I've never seen this done well. You constantly end up fighting the formatting. You end up having to learn obscures combinations of key strokes to make it do what you want. Or you just give up and format the text after you've written it all.
That to me is a real loss. I highly value being able to format on the fly.
I haven’t ever heard anyone comment on how enjoyable Word is to use.
Word can't even auto-format plain text input predictably. If you try anything at all complex involving spacing our outline formats it gets completely turned around.
"team's top and only priority"
I guess they need to learn how to be efficient if they need several weeks to add a checkbox to change one setting
The larger a product is, and the more people involved, the more steps and phases are needed to keep everything running smoothly. A dev shop with fewer people can be more efficient because there's less communication overhead, individuals wear more hats. But it doesn't scale.
It's also an artifact of Agile, SCRUM especially. If you keep a fungible pool of devs who can be redirected on a weekly basis, they don't necessarily have knowledge or expertise in the area of code they're working on, so there needs to be extra investigation time, sync on technical details, and more QA to cover omissions and unwanted interactions from lack of total knowledge. Component ownership is less susceptible to this but you lose some agility as dev fungibility is reduced.
(If a feature / deploy rollback itself isn't possible.)
The advantage of SaaS is that software can be upgraded rapidly, uniformly, and for all users, on the fly.
The disadvantage of SaaS is that software can be upgraded rapidly, uniformly, and for all users, on the fly.
My (entirely speculation) suspicion is that the old editor had a lot of tech debt, that the team was excited to delete, and since they're now having to put it back, having to make it compatible with the new editor.
I'm glad they listened to the feedback but their attitude towards people who wrote in with bugs/criticism should also be learned from. Being told 'We know what's best for you, we're not reverting the changes' was pretty insulting.
And something that occurred to me: if it's true that "in the future everyone will code (to some degree)," don't you think it's OK to start the baby steps of textual thinking?
C'mon, it's markup with like six modes, people. Practice for half as long as you're on <time_wasting_social_app> in one day and you'll be fluent.
To be fair, you could learn almost anything in that amount of time;)
To put the scale of the outrage into context, this is one of the most upvoted articles since the MacOS High Sierra "log in as root by typing no password" bug.
That one got a total of 3000 points. At the time of this comment, this is still on the front page with over 2.6k and counting. It's already surpassed the news of Julian Assange's arrest, which fell slightly short of 2.4k.
With 740 companies asking for it ;)
Submitted in 2014.
I've had some visibility of the internals of this work and it has involved touching a very large number of systems across a lot of teams. If you're interested in this issue, do also follow CLOUD-6999 which tracks custom domains and has a number of updates which are related.
Atlassian users might have a while to wait yet :-)
Does this seem unreasonably long? I get that large corps have longer development time, but wouldn't this be behind a internal feature toggle anyways? How do they deploy versions really? Did they already ripped out the code and are unable to go back? They need to rewrite the functionality or something like that?
Probably only someone with insight into this specific problem can answer but would be interesting to hear about it...
That's just a guess though; I don't work at Slack.
Yeah, this would be my assumption as well, which is why this is so unreasonable. Any serious company will deploy changes that are easy to rollback (especially when it comes to UI changes) and that Slack can't do that, speaks a lot about their engineering talent. But then again, they never been famous for their software engineering exactly.
In both cases, I get that some users can't or don't like to use a machine grammar/markup, however simple. For some people markup is bad UX. Give them a WYSIWYG; that's fine.
But don't remove the markup editor if your WYSIWYG editor is anything but a perfect one-two-one replacement for markup (and I have never seen one that satisfies that).
IIRC there was a time when Confluence axed their markup, and inevitably a table or a template would get completely screwed, and there was nothing you could do but recreate it. TERRIBLE design.
Oh my goodness: triggered.
I've barred the use of Confluence at our company specifically because of this.
"But, but, we used it at blah company."
"Yes, so did I at blahblah company, and it was unbelievably crappy and made me angry every time I had to edit a document: we're not using it."
I DO NOT want to have to use what amounts to an extremely buggy, capricious, and neutered version of Microsoft Word 6 to edit the contents of a web page.
I will become extremely displeased with you if you waste my time by trying to persuade me it's a good idea. It's not.
If you're interested in having self-hosted service for that, just drop us an e-mail here .
For ticketing software, I find Clubhouse to be much better than JIRA. Normal markdown that doesn't drive you insane. Much slicker all around.
It's also very easy to self-host.
Whilst not an actual answer to your question, I thought it might be a good direction for you to look into.
Also, I've seen Redbooth (formerly Teambox) we'll recommended and since it's OSS it can be self hosted pretty easily.
Do you have any links to any cloud or other hosting company kicking out any mens rights sites?
Don’t say it doesn’t exist. And saying “All men are pigs” is apparently not a reason to pull support from the female equivalent. As much as “Women should be sentenced to smaller prison times than men” is apparently not a hindrance to staying head of the judges of UK’s Supreme Court.
So yeah, we need to avoid using cloud services.
In this UK it's probably "mankind", hosted on a microsoft owned IP, I assume azure.
> for profit
> Its editorial position is strongly antifeminist and frequently accuses feminists of being misandrist.
somewhat different to things like the white ribbon campaign that it tried to hijack. There's plenty of charities and organisations working to stop domestic abuse of men. This looks like something that would fit well with breitbart.
I wonder if in any feminist writing there are feminist who argue that victims should fight back against their attackers. How should that be interpret? Todays news in Sweden we had the first court day of the person who initiated the Swedish metoo movement. She posted a message on social media about a coworker who she said raped her. The prosecutor filed charged against her, arguing defamation as it caused emotional and economical damage to the named person. Technically this is correct and the expected result of the law suit is actually a guilty verdict for the accuser. It also mean that technically anyone who encouraged similar behavior, in the context of feminist writing, is guilty of inciting violence against men.
Swedish defamation law is also a bit different from UK/US laws in that the truthfulness is not a saving criteria. Causing someone harm through trial by media is illegal with only a few exceptions when dealing with major public figures. In the view of the legal system, harm is harm, and it is rarely justified.
All I really want is a system that lets me arrange my tasks into a DAG. B is a subtask of A. C and D are subtasks or B. E is a subtask of D. F is a subtask of A, but depends on D being complete. It's simple and matches how people think about work. Add a capability for estimation (for the love of $deity, in durations, not dates!), and you can pull a critical path diagram straight out of it.
Is it so hard to make software like this? Why nobody does? And how come that some project management packages (like JIRA, AFAIR) explicitly mention subtasks as non-features, because they're not "agile enough". The only piece of PM software I've seen that's even capable of what I want is YouTrack by JetBrains, but even there, the graph nature of tasks is only an afterthought; the product tries very hard to look like Jira, with all its bad features.
Perhaps a weekend project/"show HN" to gauge interest would be warranted.
If you ever get around working on this, or even demoing your DAG UI (I'm interested in UIs for DAGs for other reasons too), please shoot me an e-mail (address in my profile).
Subtasks with intelligent dependencies, durations, and maybe top level item prioritization... I'd give up my hand rolled Google sheets idea in a heartbeat.
I think it's some sort of weird cultural impedance mismatch where the teams have sort of moved over to Kanban or Scrum or whatever, but the managing structures haven't. I used to work somewhere where managers spent a regular big chunk of time manually reconstructing GANTT from Microsoft TFS Kanban boards...
Was there something you didn’t like about them?
I used https://liquidplanner.com/ for a bit, it was clunky and slow and expensive, but did get the job done for what I needed.
It's worse than literally every other wiki I've ever used; even worse than phpBB.
We also use Bitbucket at work, which is laughably unreliable.
There was. I was using Confluence at the time, and it broke a lot of things. There was a wonderful filed bug at the time with a lot of angry people on it, where they promised to bring the old mechanism back as an option, and they never did. That told me everything I needed to know about Atlassian.
I really regret going with Atlassian here; I would have advised against it if I knew about this. I will definitely advise against it in the future.
Menu Administration -> Settings -> General tab
There's a drop down for Text formatting which you can set to Markdown.
Open source core supporting WYSIWYG, Markdown, Code and more.
As I have been fiddling with ProseMirror I've found out that their editor is the most extensive PM-based editor out there.
It's quite annoying.
It's been my overwhelming experience that managers love the _idea_ of Jira, but then the day-to-day in the trenches experience of battling its workflow, its markup, its ... everything ... gets pushed down onto busy people, and even if enough engineers revolt, now you have a "well, we're already so committed to Jira we can't leave now" style reply (again, in my experience)
My rule of thumb generally is: if I need significant rich text formatting in a message I'm writing, it should probably just be an email.
I feel like this increasing hybridization of sync/async comms is largely counterproductive and especially harmful to work-life balance, so it's unfortunate that companies like Slack are apparently unable to focus on core competencies and instead must shoot for disruptive growth via poorly-executed junk like this editor.
My problem is that all these networks are proprietary and isolated. When someone comes up with a really bad idea in their UI, you're SOL until they decide to fix it. When someone comes up with a really good idea, you have to hope their competitors re-implement it. And all they can do is gently try to guide their network into the place they want to occupy on the sync-async spectrum via features.
Looking back at the history of computing, I see that when a protocol is open and has many competing implementations, it lives on far beyond what the original designers ever intended. When a protocol is proprietary and implemented only by a single proprietary UI, it has a fairly short lifespan. What I can't tell is if these companies don't know their history, or if they think they're going to be the first ones ever to beat this trend, or if they don't care and just want to grab money while they can.
Tons of people said this early on, but the people who make decisions for team tooling/workflows apparently didn't think that was as important. Symptomatic of the disconnect between what most engineers think of as "quality" versus others.
At that time, every decent mail client was also a newsreader, so people could easily flip back and forth between private correspondence and public discussion. News lets you write substantial, email-sized posts and replies, but it also plays perfectly well with quick one-liners. It allows threaded discussion, and newsreaders give you simple but effective tools to navigate it. It's fine if threads blow up and die out in a day, or if they live on for weeks. You can cross-post where a discussion touches different areas. You can post-and-mail if you want to attract a specific person's attention. It's easy to index (although i don't think we did that).
It was amazing.
This is how I use Slack as well. It works nicely for me personally.
Also text = async.
Use the phone when sync is needed.
Italic and bold I can do without. But code blocks are absolutely necessary for my day job, especially during a production incident. (Email won't cut it for that!)
So, in the end it's a very clever move.
They also somehow broke the tab key for tabbing through users when you're trying to @ someone, after the first tab it just starts refocusing your input boxes rather than selecting different users.
Edit: Ironically, HN's built in markdown seems to understand asterisks, but not backticks, which leads to behavior similar to Slack's that I'm ranting about, I've replaced them with <asterisk> to make it clear.
I'm not entirely sure which is the less-worse option here but at least it's not a wildly new concept, just a different button.
Good to see that they are shipping improvements to it now.
The upside is that it's now possible to have bold passages in monospaced text. I missed that before.
The web client on Firefox works better, though: https://imgur.com/a/X53iIlm
Edit: On Chrome it's broken for me too....
I think the concern is mostly about what Slack was actually trying to achieve.
I am, to put it lightly, familiar with this in other companies.
You're probably right. However, Slack will never be _the_ goto office communication platform until it integrates with AD and that will not happen because MS has competing software (Skype for business previously known as Lync).
Integrating with AD (or Azure AD) does not require Microsoft's blessing. Source: the product I'm working on (which is in the same market as Slack and Skype for business) is currently doing that.
Teams, not Skype for Business, is Microsoft's Slack competitor.
In these companies, the fastest way to get canned is to believe you are there to help the company succeed by trying to innovate, and in the process of doing so, imply there are flaws with how it's currently being done.
Also known as optimal strategy to get your soul crushed and die inside.
And then it turned out that there's an undocumented registry key to re-enable the old behavior, that was leaked without much fanfare (https://www.richard-banks.org/2012/06/how-to-prevent-visual-...). It was never mentioned in any official documentation, but word of mouth spread it far and wide, and its existence probably spared the worst in terms of angry user rants.
Ironically, the outcry over the caps was big enough that this setting eventually got an official checkbox in a major release sometime later, and then became the default behavior again.
If non-techies can be taught how threading or bunch of other Slack idiosyncrasies work, they can as easily be taught that surrounding text with characters like *, /, ~, _ and ` changes formatting. It's a trivial concept. Reddit, or countless Internet forums before, never had a problem with teaching that to non-techies.
The next step that also seems to happen more often than not: Despite user outcry, the company digs in, becomes defensive, and dismisses complaints with platitudes or snark like “you’ll get over it”. See also: Slashdot redesign, Fark redesign, Reddit redesign, Digg redesign, and so on.
In the future how do you suggest I handle this?
"someone else in this thread said that they know some slack employees and it's true: <link> "
that way people scanning know what the link is and why it's there.
But it's only a few downvotes, and I think that total downvote count effect is limited to only a few points per post? So don't sweat it.