From what I remember from posts on HN by Israeli citizens, but of ethnically non-Jewish background its not quite the clear picture you paint. Leaving aside Palestinian civilians who do not have recourse to the same civic laws and roads as Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs do not have the same rights even legally (let alone inconsistent application of existing laws) as Jewish citizens. These discrepancies crop up in different spheres of life, from marriage to permit for visiting cities to owning property.
You really are mistaken. The hearsay of some hackernews posts amounts to zero evidence, while you can verify the legal equality of races in Israel in any decent book. Unless of course, you want to grasp at straws like another poster here and argue that semantically a Law of Return is racist (even though many acknowledged non-racist countries have the same laws) or Arabs having the option to opt out of the draft is racist (which should speak for itself.)
Here is a general observation (not just about Israel).
In places where race is an overt issue, and people at the highest political places earn their votes based on race, and therefore dependent upon people who are conscious of race rights, no amount of laws is going to stop a government from exercising racial preferences in its administration.
You are implying that Israelis vote based strongly on race. This is entirely untrue. There are Jews of many different races in the Israeli government. I suppose every country that hasn't yet had a minority president is racist?
I'd say that not only Israelis, but generally people in Middle East are preoccupied with the notion of race/religion as an identity. It's a state of being, reinforced by decades of conflict/victimisation. I'm not blaming anyone here. Just describing the sad state of affairs.
However, if the US can turn things around in 50 years from a situation even worse than it is today in Israel, it gives us all hope doesn't it?
No, I would rather trust the first person accounts from people whom I have zero reasons to disbelieve. If you would look at my post I mentioned rights on traveling on the same street, equal rights on marriage etc etc.
To give an example: between someone who toes the government line in repeating there arent any gay Iranians and an Iraninan who says he is gay, I would trust the latter. More so if I had other conversations with him that seemed genuine.
You are just reciting the typical myths about racism/Israel. For example you mentioned road use discrimination, instead of that being any sort of discrimination based on race/religion, it is separation based on citizenship of PA or Israel. Arabs and anyone else who are Israeli can use these roads. To say that restriction from use based on different citizenship is discrimination is just laughable. As far as "marriage discrimination", there is no direct legal discrimination, and the arguments that there are indirect discrimination hinge on a law that doesn't grant citizenship to those who marry an Israeli automatically. Grasping at straws.
>No, I would rather trust the first person accounts from people whom I have zero reasons to disbelieve.
This is just a recipe for bias. You don't just trust people you know because one, there experience isn't anything better than anecdotal either, and two, it is difficult for any person to avoid distrust of someone they know and like personally. You should be more responsible than this when you are accusing a whole country of systematized racism.
Israel's High Court has narrowly upheld a law denying
Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza married to
Israeli citizens the right to live in the country with
their spouses. -- The Independent
Government was more restrictive in issuing building
permits in Arab communities than in Jewish communities,
thereby not accommodating natural growth."
-- U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices
3 times more money was invested in education of Jewish
children as in Arab children.
-- U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices
the Law of Return applies to ones religious status, and anyone can convert to Judaism.
--jacobmg on HN (justifying religious discrimination)
Palestinians who fled or were expelled from their homes
by Jewish or Israeli forces, before and during the 1948
Arab-Israeli war, but remained within the borders of what
would become Israel, that is, those currently known as
Arab citizens of Israel, are deemed present absentees by
the legislation. Present absentees are regarded as absent
by the Israeli government because they left their homes,
even if they did not intend to leave them for more than a
few days, and even if they did so involuntarily
Regardless of your efforts at justifying it with excuses, it stands up to the definition of discrimination, whatever the excuse or the path to that may be. No racist person or entity in history has ever suffered from lack of excuses.
Given these, I am less likely to believe you compared to someone who has earned my trust. I have never claimed that whole of Israel has systemized racism, you are putting words into my mouth and giving me more reasons to doubt what you say. I am more disinclined to carry the conversation further, for several reasons (i) I dont like deeply nested threads (ii) this is no longer an active topic on HN and I do not come to HN to discuss Arab/Israel issues (iii) after much consideration you seem to be intellectually dishonest, so I do not consider it a fruitful use of my time. I would have more respect for you if you said for instance yes we have these well documented problems but not everyone in Israel is like that.
>> I have never claimed that whole of Israel has systemized racism, you are putting words into my mouth. I would have more respect for you if you said for instance yes we have these well documented problems but not everyone in Israel is like that.
Legal discrimination is systematized discrimination, it does not imply that every law in the country is racist, but since you're accusing the country of legal discrimination I just referred to what you said it as "systematized racism" instead of "legal [race based] discrimination." I may have misquoted the degree of your criticism but you are still arguing that relatively small issues are in fact serious racial discrimination issues (small in the sense that they don't contribute to racial discrimination, not that the issues themselves aren't serious.) I don't even deny that there is racial discrimination from a small portion of individuals but to say that there is strong legal action taken to discriminate in the country is just flatly wrong.
>> Regardless of your efforts at justifying it with excuses, it stands up to the definition of discrimination, whatever the excuse or the path to that may be. No racist person or entity in history has ever suffered from lack of excuses.
No, the country isn't perfect or entirely fair but each of these criticisms has plausible non racist explanations. For example the building permits there are issued just like in the US: you have to pass many different rigorous legal and technical tests before you can build, and it is not entirely impossible that the legwork isn't being done by these Arab communities in the first place. The building-permit process in Israel is widely criticized as unusually slow for any country even in Jewish communities and I believe the OECD just released an evaluation that it takes 3 times as long in Israel as other OECD countries to issue building permits.
And another example: the criticism of education funding is no different than what happens in the US, where some people argue that a community's funding for education should be directly from what that community can extract from taxes. It's not automatically a racist policy.
i) constitutional declaration of rights, Israel does not
ii) I can drive on any road that an American civillian can drive on. I dont need to be a citizen or a resident or convert my religion.
iii) It is accepted that several inequities in US have their roots in racism and US has taken great strides to elliminate them, have open discussions on them. From what I read about Israel I dont see an environment (yet) were a corresponding national holiday to comemorate Martin Luther King is possible.
iv) If I were to be naturalized in US no law states that I cannot unless I convert my religion.
I detect a certain change in your tone after I called you out. But given your previous tone I do not have reasons to take what you say about building permits at its face value. I found too many documents from individuals and institutions that have earned my respect claiming otherwise.
Besides when you try to give an impression that you are quoting me, it is considered bad practice to remove words. Just basic honesty and propriety.
