It was not negligence or failures that sent killers to an embassy before Mr. Kashoggi was scheduled to arrive, strangled him, cut him up into pieces, sent out a body double as a distraction, disposed of the evidence, and lied about everything.
Good on the journalist for asking tough questions and not letting him weasel out.
I feel that quote describes a lot of the current issues in Silicon Valley.
After the interview aired, the Uber head tried to disassociate himself from it, saying he had misspoken. “I said something in the moment that I do not believe,” Khosrowshahi said in a statement Monday. “When it comes to Jamal Khashoggi, his murder was reprehensible and should not be forgotten or excused.”
Sure he didn't. This is like a political version of Schrödinger's Douchebag.
Then again, corporate communication is often a game of being as cynical as you can get away without getting arrested or having your business shut down, so maybe there's some meta-honesty here.
However, what I find more surprising is that he would associate the Uber incident with Khashoggi at all. Why would you want to tie together the thought of a brutal, politically motivated murder, to that of your self-driving car running someone over?
EDIT: to expound further, the CEO has to have caught wind that the company is facing an amount of criticism for the killing of the pedestrian. To use it to justify another, popularly condemned act requires a good lack of political sense.
I find it weird that when it comes to Saudi Arabia the vast majority of Americans seem to only care about Kashoggi and when to comes to Libya Americans seem to care only about four Benghazi Embassy workers. It occupies 99% of the outrage space.
So much outrage and ink spilled, Benghazi Benghazi 24 hours a day for years, by Republicans because it made the “untouchable” Hillary Clinton lose a lot of political support.
Meanwhile, the Saudi coalition bombs Yemen relentlessly, creating arguably the worst humanitarian disaster of modern times, and we continue to sell them weapons.
Meanwhile Libya is a failed state, an embarassment to the International community, millions of people live in dangerous country overrun by gangs, because we invaded and removed the government and created a political vaccum.
But we care ONLY about four embassy workers and one person who isn’t even a US citizen.
When a major stadium in Beirut was attacked by ISIS same day as the Paris attacks, countries around the world flew French flags but Lebanon was a footnote.
We certainly do seem to think of Arabs as “others” even if many of them are white like in Lebanon.
Boko Haram is terrorizing Nigeria, but we don’t talk much about it. People are fleeing a drought in Honduras. Right in our back yard, the Zetas and Sinaloa cartel have been beheading people and running entire cities for decades, but not getting nearly the coverage of ISIS. Instead many people just focus on how there is an “invasion” of refugees at the border and we need to declare a national emergency.
We need to start thinking of all humans as equally worthy of our compassion.
Now how to change this is a gazillion $$ question. It seems that major media are actually working against this and prefer stirring up nonsense rather than educating crowds. Because it sells much better, and that's because we are who we are...
The majority of the Americans I know care about human rights, gender equality, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, and democracy. The macabre and brazen murder of Kashoggi intersects with more than a couple of those concerns. The people responsible intersect with all of those concerns. There is not shortage or reason's to be outraged.
Your inclusion of Bhengazi here is truly absurd.
The phenomenon is the amount of outrage at what happens to four Americans while at the same time hardly any coverage of the MILLIONS of non-Americans who have to live and face atrocities in the failed state of Libya we helped destroy. That’s the phenomenon, Kashoggi is just another example.
1- Uber is funded in part by Saudis.
2- They don't consider jaywalkers in their autonomous driving software showing that human life is ... not important.
The Saudi regime is legally executing people for "witchcraft" and other choice infractions. The extralegal murders only happen when the legal options are exhausted. I'm not sure where the parallel to Uber is there. Maybe the comparison was a mistaken one from the start?
>Khosrowshahi’s call for forgiveness of the Saudis, Uber’s fifth largest investor, included a callous comparison to the company’s missteps in the self-driving technology space where, in March 2018, one of its vehicles accidentally struck and killed a pedestrian in Arizona.
The Saudis planned and carried out the brutal murder of minor dissident on foreign soil. Forgiveness? This is embarrassing. Where are the SV overlords, calling this out?
If the speaker had said “those things can’t be compared” that would mean one was so much worse than the other that they weren’t even in the same category.
It’s the same sense of the word you might use in the saying “you can’t compare apples and oranges.” The conditions that make an apple good are not the same as the conditions that make an orange good.
compare - ”estimate, measure, or note the similarity or dissimilarity between”
To use the word “equate” may go a step too far because he did not actually say that the two are equal, he said that they were both mistakes. Saying that he “compared” rather than “equated” invites less criticism of their reporting.
Sorry you were downvoted for asking for language clarification. An anti-Saudi story will attract those with general anti-foreigner sentiment who like to police the comments to make sure we’re all red-blooded, freedom-loving flag-wavers. This one will also attract anti-capitalists, so it could be quite a rollercoaster.
Sorry for the idioms.
A son of a wealthy saudi family recruited a bunch of saudis to attack the the US, and suceeded(!) yet there’s been no backlash on saudi arabia..
But hold on, Iran is financing Hezbollah in Lebanon, obviously US resources should focus on this!
"I didn't read the CIA report" well neither did I but from the coverage alone I would never call this a "mistake". Also they own 1/5th of your company, do some fucking research, if anything you should be more informed about this than the average American.
I'm getting rather sick of this bury-your-head-in-the-sand tatic more and more people are taking when it comes to reprehensible things. "I didn't read the CIA report", "I don't read his tweets", "I didn't read the muller report", "I didn't read the whistleblower report" - IT'S YOUR GOD DAMN JOB, I don't know why we continue to allow ignorance of current events directly related to people's jobs to be a valid excuse.
Also, please don't post the same comment twice: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21505062. Duplication is a sure way to add noise not signal. (Also, when there are duplicate submissions, we'll probably merge them, in which case your comment will appear twice in the same thread or we have to make special effort to exempt it from merging, and also move any replies that it got so that the replying users aren't punished for your duplication.)
Yes, we definitely don't merge all of them but we do get many:
It would me.
The main thing going on is that we've learned—the hard way—over the years to keep the moderation channel out-of-band where possible. To do otherwise has a crossing-the-streams effect that blows up into a off-topic and low-quality discussion. Since we're trying to value quality over quantity in all things, we try to avoid that. It doesn't follow that we feel unbothered by money laundering, criminals, or thugs.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke
My guess is what the Uber CEO said will be buried pretty quickly.
I’d downvote it if I could, but I wouldn’t flag it outright even though it’s the kind of “gotcha” story which has no content of its own, and doesn’t tend to elicit particularly interesting commentary.
Rage posts lead to rage threads. Those get many reflexive upvotes but tend not to be intellectually interesting. This thread is a case in point.
I'm not saying we're gonna see heads rolling anytime soon, just that people tend to forget until they don't.
Neither of these were mistakes. The one was a premeditated murder, the other gross negligence.
From Uber CEO's perspective, this is about the amoral organization optimizing for profit, not about the specific people who did the torturing. Would it be mere negligence if the tortures were AI drones instead of people?
But he didn't, and squirmed with a few "well, you're obviously deeper in this than I am" indications that he wasn't well-prepared on this issue.
It's tough for a CEO to go from talking to the press about the tech behind their tech company to talking about everything else in the world – that's what the CEOs of conglomerates and oil companies spend decades of their career being groomed into. In this case, he's learning on the job, the hard way.
We also believe in:
- the tooth fairy
And many other such examples besides. All that wriggling in order not to find a reason to resign and show some conscience. Either that or be blunt about it, what he really should have said was:
"Yes, Khashoggi was murdered. My investors unfortunately are lying murderous scum but I still have a company to run."
The "rogue operation" story is "good enough". It's plausible. That doesn't mean it's true of course. It doesn't have to be. Nobody has to actually believe it. It's just good enough so that everyone involved can save the minimum amount of face required to move on.
The reason that the murder can be considered "a mistake" is that the fallout was far greater than estimated. Consider that the Saudis are killing political opponents all the time with very few issues.
It's probably the grandeur of the plot that made the difference here. If Khashoggi had just been shot in the streets by "unknown assailants" (Putin style), it wouldn't have been that big a deal.
It is plausible in the sense of "plausible deniability". Imagine MBS saying something like "That Khashoggi guy, I wish somebody hacked him to pieces!".
You can interpret that as an order, or you can interpret that as a more casual remark of frustration. If you're ordering a murder, you may well want that kind of ambiguity in the order.
Furthermore, sometimes an unwise underling implements the perceived will of the dear leader in a way that is counter to their interest, e.g the assassination of Pompey "on behalf" of Julius Caesar.
In hindsight, it wouldn't make sense for MBS to order this killing, but it would make sense for a rival to blame the murder on him. That's hindsight of course. Equally plausible is the scenario where MBS is so self-absorbed, he orders the killing without regard to potential consequences.
SV CEOs and "personalities" refuse to sit on panels or visit the White House because they hate Trump and his administration. But they'll take money from Saudi Arabia. It's very hard to understand.
I think you're right that there is some hypocrisy involved when CEOs publicly denounce unpopular politics only to support deplorable practices as soon as money is involved.
The OP is calling out the double standard. Accusing Trump of sexism while taking money from those who literally practice an entire lifestyle based on oppression of women, death to gays, etc.
Uber, WeWork, others are all perfectly happy to accept money from these highly dubious source. Adam Neumann talks about saving the environment while living large on oil money...
Silicon Valley is in bed with the Saudis, no surprise here. Meanwhile, the shrieks coming from California about Trump are deafening.
My standard is "don't take money from and ask for the forgiveness of murderers", while at the same time whining about Project Maven, or those providing services to ICE, or facial recognition...
It's appalling that this is even up for debate. Saudi money is blood money in the worst case, oil money in the best. Whatever keeps you in your Tesla though, right?
>The OP is just attempting bothsiderism
More made up words to prevent people from being called out on glaring hypocrisy.
Of course you don't see it; you never see it. But the rest of us do, believe it.
Pretty sure the reason he was killed was some internal Saudi stuff.