But in the ideal world you’re wrong... it’s fundamentally easier to start with a mobile design and make some specific interventions to make it work well on desktop than to do the opposite.
Whether anyone actually makes those interventions is, as you indicate, somewhat unlikely.
Some people also use it like a USB dongle, and drop files up manually, then download them on computers they don't have installation privileges on.
At least Dropbox hasn't gone full in on the Heiroglyph side of the fad, they still have text labels for buttons, so you can understand what they do by looking at them and reading them.
I've tried Word and Excel, both behaved so.
Stupidity is contagious. And Microsoft's idea of innovation is copying what the others do and brake it beyond all repair.
> I've tried Word and Excel, both behaved so.
I'm shocked you used such a © "word". The new way to have fun is to be in a meeting and see the presenter trying for 5 minutes to find something in the ribbon menu.
Microsoft Office switched to the "backstage" menu in Office 2010, long before full-screen menus became a popular pattern. Office 2007 had the app menu, which is the same as the File menu in the Windows File Explorer. In my opinion, the app menu is far superior simply because it doesn't change the context and it's easily dismissable.
> The new way to have fun is to be in a meeting and see the presenter trying for 5 minutes to find something in the ribbon menu.
The Ribbon is far superior to the old teetering tower of random menus, toolbars, and panels. Everything is in a single logical place, with (almost) every button having a text label and many having intuitive icons. And now it has a search bar.
They've obscured the "save as" functionality and really push one drive saving. Even as a one-drive user, oftentimes I just want to save a file on my disk in a specific spot without backing it up to the cloud.
I really wish Libreoffice Calc was a better Excel replacement, because it feels like Excel gets more dumbed-down each year. I get a UTF-8 csv emailed daily from a vendor, and I still can't get Excel to treat it properly. It only applies that setting to that specific file, I can't change it system-wide. Maybe it's possible, I found it easier to just write a python script to convert the files to windows-1250 like it expects.
The ribbon is far superior to the old menus though, this week I needed to create a shudder PowerPoint presentation. Don't think I've needed to do that in 5 years, but it was easy enough to find all the functionality I needed. Plus, the search box actually shows where the buttons are located, so you actually learn how to use the program instead of relying on search. I remember the mess the Office 07 menus were, any time there was a need to use a feature that wasn't familiar was a chore. I remember actually needing to Google for some excel feature and needing to rely on screenshots of the menus to find what I needed. I don't get it, since Visual Studio has far more complexity buried in it than Word, but I've never had anywhere near the difficulty finding features than I did with the old Office menus.
Clicking on the File menu gets you
"Protect Document -- Protect Document"
"Check for Issues -- Inspect Document"
"Manage Versions -- Versions"
effectively as the only "obvious choices" with two different wordings (why?) and with a lot of "stuff" left and right "Properties" "Related Dates" "Related People" ? It's specifically not obvious that the "menu" is in the blue area on the left and that the three buttons are... what are they actually? How come these three came to be the major actions one would want to do in the File menu?
And why the document disappeared like I'm on the small mobile screen? I'm aware now they did that for many years, still... it's... confusing on the big screen.
That's been the case for I think a decade now. Maybe longer.
To be fair, now days they make really good use of that space. Earlier iterations of that UI were pretty bad, but a giant list of recent documents, a list of recent document templates, and all the main commands to do things (save, open) are positions to the left where they have always been.
Given that Word now days auto-saves (about time!), the main thing I'm going into the File menu for is to switch to a different file, at which point the file menu showing me a list of, well, files, is pretty useful to be honest.
Also it has a search box, and search boxes are nice, I welcome UI changes that allow for more search boxes in the world.
Strange it doesn't do local, but I imagine there are legacy reasons for that. Everything in Office is old. Often it is crazy well engineered, but decisions set in stone decades ago still linger on.
Esp. when the target machine the code had to run on was a 486 with a slow hard drive and a tiny bit of memory.
Of course Office updated their file format, but they probably did it a little bit too soon. I always wondered what would've happened if they had waited a few more years, released in 2007, so probably design started a few years prior. Talk about just being a smidgen too early for a world of unlimited(-ish) data and always on internet connections.
And then spent nearly 5 minutes trying to get back to "Regular Dropbox".
But wait... I'm at the root of dropbox.com. Is... Dropbox "non-business" dead? I stopped using it a while ago because of their inexorable push into "enterprise" features that I didn't care about, but I never expected them to outright kill the product.
Edit: It's actually the width that matters. After reducing it a bit it will show the hamburger menu.
It's fair to criticize specific visual and UX design details, but it's a bit much to take this as any indication that Dropbox doesn't care about desktop users (especially Dropbox) or that everything is being "mobilified."
You never used a computer? There is a thing called a mouse which you have to move to the bottom of the screen to select the bloody thing. I'm shocked that Alan Kay did had the glorious idea of the full screen menu.
> It's fair to criticize specific visual and UX design details, but it's a bit much to take this as any indication that Dropbox doesn't care about desktop users (especially Dropbox) or that everything is being "mobilified."
How to say it without resorting to medical condition: to throw away years of working things in GUI and to come with an "UX" which has the functionality of windows 1.0 shows some mental development problems to say the least.
But here is the upper part of what I can see: https://imgur.com/eRFnDo6
Isn't is beautiful? How the image layer is put over half of the text line?
Oh, and the right part (white background) only appears after a couple of seconds. At first it shows the continuation of the blue background scree, with 2 'menu' items: "Se connecter" (log in) and "S'inscrire" (sign in). So if you try to click on "sign in", by the time your click is registered, it ends up on the white background item which appears at the same place: "Télécharger" (download).
Wow that is sloppy.
For me the hamburger button's media query is set to a width of 1366px.
I don't have a dropbox account. I do notice no matter what I always end up at `https://www.dropbox.com/?landing=dbv2`, so I may somehow be being put into an AB test. Even an incognito window does that. The name `dbv2` might imply a new version of the site that is in the works? Shrug.
Yours looks like https://www.dropbox.com/business
My desktop isn't a tablet - stop trying to make it one!
I'm sure vertical space is the most often-repeated argument, but I'm skeptical that it's indeed the reason behind this trend.
I tried a 36", I can't stand it as a display. Fine for a TV, but it's a little much for a monitor. Although I can't stand more than 2 displays, so YMMV.
Ironically, I do enable them on my tablet, because I don't always have a keyboard attached to it. Tablets generally have enough space for full menus / toolbars, and lacking a keyboard they're arguably the form factor most in need of them.
I know about the "Alt" key, but I find the need to press that to pop up the menu to be incredibly annoying.
I use the menu really frequently -- for pretty much anything that isn't a toolbar button.
I tend not to use keyboard shortcuts generally, but particularly if I'm just reading a website -- in that situation, my hands are on the mouse, not the keyboard, and moving to the keyboard to type a shortcut is more inconvenient than just being able to use two clicks on a menu.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Also I miss typing ".." in the URL bar to go to my home page (I'll admit this was an iexplore quirk, albeit a really convenient one...)
Edit: apparently on PCs the per-window menu is activated with Alt, TIL
Why can't we just have sites/apps/SPAs/whatever that look and work well on whatever device they supposedly support?
Indeed. There seems to be a weird idea that it's possible to make a UI that works well on all form factors. I don't see how that's possible, and I've never seen it happen in practice.
What actually happens is that you have a UI that works well on one form factor and badly on the others, or you have a UI that works poorly on them all.
This is why we have media queries in CSS!
Placing the cursor in text by imitating the new cursor catch and place game of iOS will be also fun. Probably so much fun that quite a number of people will stay longer in the office to play with it.
That said, the menu bar has already taken serious damage by the introduction of OS X, when the first menu item became the variable width application name. Before this, the File and Edit menus and their essential menu items were exactly on the same place in every application, rendering the most essential commands a matter of muscle memory, quite like a guesture.
Thank you to the poster below for the "alt" shortcut and for reminding me I can change the settings!
I don't have a problem with the concept of the hamburger except what they put in it is less useful than the menu bar.
I don't drive much, these days; but even as a passenger, they do my head in. No More Hamburgers! Boo!
Game over. Do you want to play another game?
(...you know - material ui is the new shit. I wonder what are they smoking, i would _love_ to try it too)
What I hate even worse though is endless scroll... give me damn pagination with buttons! So I can reload the page and not worry about losing my spot, or accidentally scrolling away... let me use the back button on my browser!
It's like proliferation of electron apps, or how even the prosumer SLR / MILC camera market is dying as smartphone cameras get better and better.
If you consider that a tablet is a "computing device" then my washing machine is also one.
> It's like proliferation of electron apps, or how even the prosumer SLR / MILC camera market is dying as smartphone cameras get better and better.
They get "better and better" because they are crap. As U2 said: even better than the real thing.
I think a lot of mobile designs underestimate the natural information density of phones too.
Also, I want to know what brain dead MS designer decided that multitasking different control panel windows was a Bad Thing, and put the whole settings section into a single window that can't be separated. Do these people even use their own OS?
It would work really well as a "menu" for a touch-based OS, even.
There's nothing good about it that you couldn't do better with customizable toolbars before.
If there are ways to customize it now, I'm not smart enough to do it anymore.
Right click, customize the ribbon. You can set it up however you want.
Or just set it to show only tabs and treat it like a fancy menu bar.
Or hide it completely and just use the command search feature Office apps have in them now. It is like a command line with amazing auto-complete. Alt-q to jump to search.
It's just unfortunate, because it started the trend of reducing and hiding functionality. With less examples of what high density software looked and worked like, people don't even know what they are missing.
Then they briefly tried to push the one interface for every device holy grail with Windows 8 and UWP. Thankfully that was abortove, but it's still poisoned things more and hurt information density in its fallout.
Did you tried to use it ? For every god damn thing i try to find in the ribbon i lose 5 minutes. That's what i call "hiding functionality" .
Microsoft have put together an awesome guide to the Ribbon. Even if you're not making one, it's a great read that really goes into the reasons it exists: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/cmd-r.... I came across this page by chance when I was in high school, and I think it was what sparked my interest in user interface and user experience design.
Scroll bars only work with precision mice actions, and now desktop UX is legacy UX, mobile UX concepts enroach onto desktop UX, because developers do not like to create special cases, because that is more work and thus more $$$.
And yet, several mobile apps I use routinely have found a way to make it work reasonably well. They use a slim line of a scrollbar to indicate where you are, and if you touch the scrollbar then a larger finger-friendly handle appears which can be used like a traditional scrollbar.
But I'm much more forgiving of UI compromises that are forced by the limitations of mobile devices. It's when those same compromises are used on the desktop that I have a problem -- that's just degrading the UX for no good reason.
I agree it's sloppy on desktops, but it helps to understand the reasons why the sloppyness happens. Kind of like electron apps :p
Touch scroll bars don't need to be precise because most of the time we can just scroll normally. But it's nice to have an ability to jump to a specific part of the document in a consistent way.
This, unfortunately, describes half the features of iOS. Apple is deeply in love with the undiscoverable UI - and then NOT DOCUMENTING it.
Drives me absolutely crazy.
That said, I stumbled across it by accident first.
Fact of life is everyone copies Apple. Apple doesn't copy and paste things. They'll think deeply before copying. And will modify things to fit their unique needs and situation.
Unfortunately, those who copy Apple switch off their brains and pursue the "looks" ALONE, ignore the "feel" and just mess everything up.
The next big culprit is Google's Android with their let's just hide everything - hamburger.
Microsoft, the final boss, attempted to beat Apple in design. The result was Metro UI - a beautiful, text heavy, flat, design (they changed the name too many times to keep track off.)
Microsoft turned off their brains as well. The result:
They hid every thing - scroll bars, status bars and title bars. Wasted valuable screen real estate - empty spaces everywhere. Created a much hated start-screen with scroll bars that moved horizontally instead of vertically. And to make matters worse, moved in the opposite direction of scroll wheel. (Perfect if navigating with a finger but very confusing if using the mouse. It clashed with 20 years of mouse knowledge)
That's why people hated Windows 8.
Both Apple and Google riffed off Metro design. Google calls theirs material design, don't know what Apple named theirs.
If this article was titled, Who Killed Ports, 3.5mm audio jack, repairability, screws, or upgradable ram? The answer would still be Apple.
Summary: Prioritizing form over function is cancerous.
And I really, really wish they'd stop it.
Apple is, generally, good in many particulars. It is extremely conservative, with only two desktop models (Classic Mac, 1984 - 2000, OS X, 2001 - 2019, and ongoing, which is to say, longer than the original interface). It is ultimately completely antithetical to how I work in desktop, and I find myself vastly prefering Linux and the option of selecting a desktop environment. Ironically: Windowmaker, based on the foundations of the OSX Aqua desktop, NextStep.
Increasingly it seems that Apple is stuck with implications of design decisions made decades ago which correspond increasinly poorly to current practices. The high cost of cycling between applications in particular. No, I don't want ALL FLIPPING WINDOWS of an app to pop up when I switch between the primary current working windows of two different apps. Or workspace flipping as I switch / open new app windows.
Apple's third OS UI, iOS, has a tremendous number of shortcomings. As do virtually all other mobile interfaces. I'm coming to the conclusion that any screen size < 10-15 CM is simply too small to be useful, and prefer a minmum 9-10" (20-25 cm) devices myself.
Yes, in principle. But it becomes less than useful when the common schemas get in my way, which has been an increasing problem over the past few years. The aping of Apple's decisions appears to be a large part of why.
As jwz has noted, UI is different, in that changes to it provide relatively little payback:
[I]n the case of all other software, I believe strongly in "release early, release often". Hell, I damned near invented it. But I think history has proven that UI is different than software.
(HN-safe archive link.)
The bulk of present UI/UX metaphors can be traced directly to the Mother of All Demos, now over fifty years old:
That said: from MoAD onward, the use-case has been of a desktop (or very-desktop-like laptop) system, with keyboard, pointer (mouse, tablet, light pen, etc.), used at something vaguely resembling a desk or table.
It's not even the screen size of mobile devices in raw resolution that's so different -- early GUI computers had as little as 640x480 (VGA) resolution or less. The original iPad was 1024x768.
But no keyboard, and finger-on-glass manipulation, call for a very different set of control and design considerations. A mouse pointer can have pixel-accuracy control. Fingers cover a probabalistic smear of screen space tens of pixels across and hide the screen elements they're affecting at the same time.
(And that's before you introduce such joys as screens repainting and repositioning as / before you complete a touch action.)
The real question is how to achieve concensus for new design and to void bad entrenched patterns across a highly fragmented design industry. Ranty flipping blog posts are one possible solution....
Come up with a really good UI concept, implement it, and see everybody love it.
Avoid patenting it through the nose, and let everyone copy most of it. This is how it will become the standard and win the world adoption.
It seems like you'd need millions of R&D budget spent in a large part for public good, or at least to seriously change the market landscape without a guarantee you'll dominate it.
My preferred desktop, Windowmaker, is even more conservative, as it's seeking to emulate the 1980s NextStep desktop, though there have been a few changes, and I noticed many of them sharply.
But contrast Microsoft, which had fairly sharp changes from the Windows 1 days to present, or the gratuitous changes tossed out by the major Linux desktops (GNOME and KDE), and it's no contest. Mac has an incredibly stable GUI. I don't much care for it but it's stable.
However, Windows 8 had an attempted solution for the specific problem called out in the article (the lack of a standard convention for getting an overview and jumping to a section of a long document or content scroll): semantic zoom. You could pinch-zoom out to get an overview of a view and then quickly jump to a specific section. (Scrollbars still existed but were only shown while using a mouse or pen. The mouse had access to the zoomed-out view as well, via a button on the scrollbar.) This was sadly removed in Windows 10 and I really miss it.
So, people may have hated it, but it solved the problem the article highlights, which today's "less hated" products don't.
Microsoft in a panic, went overboard and started the trend that our 26" desktop monitors didn't need much on it. At least they corrected most of the issues by now, but many other companies haven't.
Fast forward to today. There's no such thing as "native widgets" in a web app. So everyone rolls their own. Everyone keeps making the same mistakes over and over again. Everyone is chasing fads. There is no consistency from app to app. Today building the UI is the hard part.
(x-windows was the exception of course - you could choose from a dozen badly designed window managers and widget sets.)
This is why every app and its mother didn't need a UI/UX designer until the past few years.
HTML form elements are essentially "native" widgets, if only native to the browser. The problem with them is that older browsers lack support for many desirable widgets (e.g. calendar date entry), so some "UI-building" work is still needed.
The industry is simply missing a standard. Everyone was hoping HTML/JS/CSS would mature enough to solve it, but it didn't, despite being given 2+ decades. Developing in and using web standards for anything data-centric or highly interactive is a royal pain. You need rocket science to build a bicycle. Time for a dedicated bicycle standard.
This is not necessarily a bad thing, mind, there is something to be said about how huge browsers are becoming, and shipping a full widget toolkit would bloat that up even more.
I don't know what the state of this is on Android, but iOS 13 lets you grab the scrollbar and go immediately to wherever you want in a document.
The scrollbar doesn't show up by default, so it's a 2-step operation. Scroll a bit to make the scroll indicator appear, then grab it and scroll faster.
Works well but I doubt many people are aware of it yet. People just assume you can't grab the scroll indicator in iOS since Apple took that feature away when they first launched the iPhone. Scroll bar has been non-interactable for the last 12 years of their touch devices.
In Chrome (and probably other browsers), you can use CMD+Up to jump to the top and CMD+Down to jump to the bottom.
It's inconsistent on android, it works like that with most things but strangely not with some apps. You can't grab the scrollbar in Retroarch for example, even though you can see it. It makes scrolling through huge lists of ROMs extremely aggravating.
The only thing consistent about Android is its inconsistency, but even that can vary.
On a more serious note, I can’t find the date this was originally published (??? Seriously?!) so I don’t know what OS and browser versions were prevalent at the time of writing.
I double checked by going to their other posts - it is the post-age, not the user-age, despite the "follow this user" button right next to it.
Inconsistency in Android is one of its selling features if you are in to that.
Works in Safari as well, though if the toolbar is collapsed your first tap will be to expand that, then the second one scrolls up.
> Lord knows, you can't actually grab the scrollbar and navigate with the bloody thing.
I read those words while actually grabbing the scrollbar and navigating with the bloody thing.
I tend to have a lot of browser tabs open (well over 1,000 on desktop Firefox, which actually is fairly managable), and on Android there's simply no way to deal with more than ~20 (which I can easily hit in a minute or so).
Firefox/Android is far better in this regard, but on my device is so slow (literally minutes for UI responses) as to be unusable. Yes, despite numerous touted "performance" improvements. I'd very much like to switch. I simply cannot.
On Pocket, which is mentioned in the article and with a longer linked Reddit post ("It gets worse the more you use it"), it takes several minutes to scroll through my Tags list, with absolutely no search or keyboard accelleration possible. This on a tablet with an attached Bluetooth keyboard.
Tablet/mobile usability is complete crap, which is disappointing as tablet form-factor is otherwise promising. (Subject of yet another rant, this also on Ello.)
You seem to be describing a deficiency with your platform or your hardware, not with "mobile."
I tend to keep various projects/tasks organised by windows, and am increasingly using Incognito sessions not to hide anything in particular, but simply to keep myself from accruing yet more history.
I'm pursuing a wide-ranging set of research across numerous topics, and there's a large amount of material which seems at least potentially relevant. Cutting through what I've found and categorising it is a major part of what I'm trying to do, though how well I succeed is ... debatable.
There are also programming and sysadmin tasks, and other projects that I dive into. Those typically get some sort of state, whether it's a tab tree within a window, or a separate window.
Tabs are horrible. But they're better than all the other state-management methods which have come along from time to time.
On Android, the problem is that past a small handful of tabs, management, place-keeping, and showing relationships between tabs (parent/child, generally) becomes impossible. I've been trying to close out the open tabs I've got for ... a couple of years now. Sites have come and gone in that time.
> No flipping clue how long the flipping post flipping is.
> No flipping way to quickly navigate to the top or bottom of the post.
I've literally never had either one of these issues with a disappearing scrollbar. OCCASIONALLY I have to try to grab it a second time but I'm more than happy with that state of affairs.
Also calling out Ello at the end is rather weak IMHO. If you really hate the lack of scrollbars so much then host your own blog...
My strong preference is the exact opposite of this. I want it to be there, full size, any time that scrolling is possible.
It seems that this is something that should be user configurable.
Thank you for making my life 5% better kind stranger!
The default Android PDF viewer operates in this manner, and provides a grabbable scroll control. Much of the rest of the app is otherwise less than impressive, but this would be a useful motif to pick up.
I'd offered the feedback to Ello in the piece as both relevant to the site specifically, and in the spirit of having long offered feedback on both good and bad elements of the site, at least for as long as there was any response to those (this stopped being the case around 2016, the site is now effectively dead).
I am a firm believer in the right to provide feedback on tools and services used. "Go self host" isn't a reasonable or scalable response generally.
> The default Android PDF viewer operates in this manner, and provides a grabbable scroll control. Much of the rest of the app is otherwise less than impressive, but this would be a useful motif to pick up.
I wish I had an Android device laying around to test this on because I have a hard time believing any scroll-bar-manipulation-on-mobile would be anything but terribly finicky. That said I also don't find myself in a situation where I ever want to drag the scrollbar on mobile. I'm perfectly happy just using it as a progress bar.
> I am a firm believer in the right to provide feedback on tools and services used.
That was never in question.
> "Go self host" isn't a reasonable or scalable response generally.
Maybe "then host your own blog" wasn't the best way to phrase that, let me try again:
If you really hate the lack of scrollbars then there are a number of platforms (free, paid, hosted, self-hosted, the list goes on) you can move to that will give you the ability to turn on scrollbars.
The Drive PDF Viewer (default PDF viewer on Android) scroll behaviour isn't perfect, but it's a reasonable compromise with minimal surprises (principle of least astonishment) for the platform.
I quite honestly prefer paginated PDFs in general for online reading, as they follow numerous predictable behaviours, with PocketBook and FBReader my preferred apps for this.
The Internet Archive's online BookReader app is also excellent, in its paginated mode. When set to portrait aspect ratios, it converts to a scrolling mode which I really dislike.
When the page scrollbar is thin, and one of the page-width elements in the page also has a scrollbar on the right?
I am fighting on both mobile AND the desktop!
It’s extremely bad UI design when even on the desktop browser with a mouse and keyboard, I end up fighting to grab the page scrollbar.
And it’s not the page designers fault here.
For Chrome, https://www.reddit.com/r/techsupport/comments/19glyg/how_to_...
A bad default that has to be edited by hand, in a tucked-away location.
This is awful.
Of course, it's broken in a lot of sites, because many front end devs apparently don't know or care that this exists.
When I indicate an up/down movement on a page, I expect the page to move top-to-bottom. And absolutely NOT left-to-right.
I instantly switch to the "classic" view, though disabling JS on the site has the added benefit of "breaking" the dysfunctional mode.
Any other remapping of scroll behaviour is also annoying as flipping heck.
The usual culprit is some crappy Themeforest WordPress Theme the website is using.
Some of the biggest offenses i 've seen are google's web apps. Total loss of hierarchy and replacement with elusive self-hiding buttons, even when it's clear from their use case that they should never have been hamburgerized. I 'm pretty sure, even in mobile, they are making the UX worse.
I definitely believe almost everything since has been "innovation" for the sake of "progress", regardless of whether it was really better or not. Usually novel but worse.
Or at least https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/10/23/bold-... has been making the rounds.
I miss the simplicity of Windows 2000/XP classic, been downhill from there. Ubuntu Mate is good but is suffering from the encroachment of gnome also.
Also took 15 years for dark themes to become allowed again due to loss of theming functionality.
It'd also help substantially if more tag-centric applications were up-front about which tags are already defined.
(Or one of a very few equivalents, possibly the Colon Classification.)
In other words each level should sub-divide your files into further obvious (whatever that means to you) subcategories.
We're used to them for use with physical objects, which can only occupy a single space. When the search interface is the representation (as with files or data stores), cross-referencing across categories is readily facilitated, and (in the extremely rare instance of well-designed ontologies), useful.
I've created several collections using extensive tagging schemas, and not infrequently run out of tags. I've also been looking at various ontologies suggested over the years, dating to Aristotle, Francis Bacon, Diderot, and more recent (often library or encyclopedia) schemas. Some are useful, none are perfect, all incorporate biases and anacronisms.
Another feature of folders (directories), or physical storage locations (for physical items), is that the classification / relation is created automatically by virtue of where an item or file is located. For tagging systems, you've got the additional overhead of specifying (or creating a rules-based tag-generating system) to apply tags to content. Otherwise you end up with a morass of "My Document0012811.docx", "untitled", "unclassified", "misc", etc., content. Cataloguing itself is a role, process, and step, and requires maintenance. Even within library science, the tendency has been to move toward self-describing works, full-text search, and imputed relationships.
Also, you can use hierarchies with tags too, it’s just a matter of interface. Example: click “photos”, and see all the other tags that are associated with photos, and in a separate view all the files with all the previously clicked tags. You can drill down this way. Order top level tags by number of files using it. I have never seen this implemented but it seems like it would be fun. I also imagine “photos” itself would be a special file type metadata tag.
EDIT: posted before fleshing out idea, it is fleshed out now.
Great argument for tags! Sure, it's never been done, but it's possible that someone will re-implement the inherent properties of filesystems with tags in the future, so let's take your filesystem away now!
In a world before infinite scroll, the bottom of the page was indeed the last bit of content on the page. In today's world, scrolling to the bottom of a page typically loads more content.
In this new world, I can imagine designers and engineers deciding to do the simple thing which is to remove the scroll bar since it's no longer usually an accurate depiction of where the users position is in relation to all the content available.
Of course all of this solely applies to feeds and not standalone pieces of content like articles. In the latter cases I'm unsure beyond minimal aesthetics why the scroll bar would be removed.
Or put another way, if you have a main content section that is scrollable (and the entire page isn't), then please make sure the focus is set to that scrollable div on page load.
I loaded the linked article and tried to scroll with Page Down, and nothing happened. I had to click inside the article body first, and only then could I scroll it with the keyboard.
I think a lot of sites and apps are built by people who do all their scrolling with the touchpad, and they don't know that there are other ways people like to scroll and it is the designer/developer's job to make sure they all work.
It was, for a while, promising, useful, and interesting. I'd posted content there while that was the case.
I've been (occasionally) experimenting with slight bowderilisation. For better or worse, less swearing tends to go over slightly better. I can assure you the feeling was there in the original.
My general administrative announcement (NSFW langauge):
Swearing helps convey frustration etc. and I guess that's what you were going for, but it doesn't actually work for me (as the reader) in all cases and in particular when it's "redacted".
Not that my opinion matters. I didn't intend this comment to be taken as serious discussion item and maybe I should have just not commented.
I wrote that some three years ago, among a series of rants (I don't recall the others that accompanied it), moved to extreme annoyance, and after looking at the initial result, decided to replace the initial language to tone it down a bit.
Today I tossed it into the HN submissions queue following an earlier item on similarly obnoxious and undiscoverable UI/UX, and was surprised to see the item take off. Planning which HN submissions will succeed is not a high-probability endeavour.
The best way to read the language is "yeah, the author was pretty annoyed when they wrote this, but decided to tone down the effect without removing all references to that annoyance entirely".
I've written highly invecitve-filled pieces elsewhere. For public or private consumption. It's when I stop any swearing that feedback (and usage) is quite likely to stop -- the outrage is a measure that I still care. Users past caring don't remain long.
And of all things you could comment, not only is this not related to the topic of TFA at all, but it's also inconsequential, to the point of being some personal peculiarity... Who cares if he uses the "real" swear words or not?
The thing is I felt the amount of swearing was distracting, and not using the actual word then made these swears stick out even more, distracting further from the content.
Maybe not relevant to you, but it's what I felt.
Actually, mobile scrollbars cause problems for me pretty often. My fat fingers sometimes trigger the scrollbar instead when I mean to tap an element on the right side of the screen. It's very infuriating when you suddenly jump to some random spot in a large list and have to scroll to find where you were and try again.
I would love to see I think the solution is to come up with a design that indicates an element is scrollable. Maybe by darkening it at the bottom? A scrollbar could be toggled when the user scrolls far enough, then hidden again when the user stops scrolling for a while. Idk, I'm not a designer.
- In iOS Safari you can tap the area above the address bar to jump back to the top of the web page.
- On iOS 13, you can finally press-hold the scroll blob and drag it in a sensible way.
- When there is a keyboard that lacks page-up/page-down/home/end, using the Command (Apple/Cloverleaf) key with up/down arrow tends to be equivalent to home/end.
- Fortunately a lot of web sites that have messed-up layouts still support Reader View, which can restore some sanity and standard controls.
I wouldn't recommend trying to modify DOM elements via CSS or extensions if you can avoid it. You're going to run into some broken web experiences.
Regarding scrollbars, you can set your OS to always show them. As a web dev, I'm out here trying to advocate to never screw with scrollbars.
I've explicitly made that point in the example Codepen showing that styling:
More generally, I've long held that Web design as practiced isn't the solution, it's the problem.
I've been toying with the notion of an FYWD browser, standing for "Fine Young Western Dinosaurs" or "Flip Your Web Design", where some of the letters in "flip" were originally different.
If I'm resorting to extensions or CSS to modify DOM elements, it's likely the web experience is already broken from my point of view. It's not something I do just for the fun of it.
And I actually think that begin able to modify webpage to your liking is important, even if it means breaking the page in the process (I'm kind of used to it with umatrix)
I do agree that in an ideal world, every webpage would be an amazing web experience, but unfortunately that's not the case, even with big websites with amazing UX desginer
You can also design the page to endlessly ask for new content as one scrolls, but never display a scrollbar...
However I do agree that removing scrollbars on Mobile has one advantage: I simply can't accidentally move to the bottom of the page, which (no idea why) I do it very often...