Thanks, I hate it.
As someone holding on tightly to an out of date iPhone and a 2015 MacBook Pro (oh my god, the current laptop keyboard/trackpad/port situation is a whole 'nother even more intense rant), I think Apple has fucking lost it product-wise. I'm saying this as someone who has been on Apple products since 1987 and lived through the dark days of Apple in the 90s.
To me it's an example of what happens when you put a finance guy and not a product guy at the top of the totem pole. Instead of asking "is this product the best it could be?" the thought process seems to be "Will this product make money? How can it make MORE money?"
"Yeah, it doesn't sit on a table flat anymore, but it'll sell when we market it as 'THE SHINIEST IPHONE EVER'"
"It sure is awkward to use one handed, but it'll sell when we market it as 'THE NEWEST IPHONE WE'VE EVER MADE'"
Bigger and bigger iPhones with better and better cameras and more and more letters tacked on to the end will sell to a captive audience when Apple has the brand power they do. And that might seem good enough when all you're doing is comparing yourself to what the rest of the market is releasing, and when market success is beating last year's sales. But is that the Apple we want?
I want my Apple back. The SE was the last phone form-factor that still had Steve Job's approval on it, and it sucks that it's so obvious.
There's nothing current and SE size in the Android world either (except at slow feature-phone level).
Even better, release two new phones, one in SE size but all screen so the screen's bigger, and one with SE screen size but all screen but the phone's smaller.
By my calculations you could fit a 5" screen on an "SE X". A size comparison: https://i.imgur.com/OKZiWrN.png
Here's hoping for an iPhone SE/30. Sadly they missed the ideal time to release it, being that last January was the SE/30's 30th anniversary. That would have been cute. As they were both (for their time) small and powerful computers, it would have been perfect. I was almost expecting it as soon as they released the iPhone SE... and Apple isn't entirely immune to nostalgia, though it is rare.
An interesting bit of trivia: the SE/30 is the only Apple computer to ever to include a slash in its name. (Honorable mention does go to the Apple IIe which was occasionally stylised in type as //e, but that wasn't its actual name.)
Interesting. I don't often get mocked for having an SE, but I do often have people asking what model my phone is and where they can get one.
My current hope is that we might see something like the SE come back now that Jony Ive's had at least a glancing blow from the boot. Maybe now Apple's at least a little bit more able to resist the constant drive to make the phones wider and wider so that they can fit the same amount of electronics and battery into a thinner and thinner device.
- the phone no longer sitting flat
- the headphone port being removed
- the phone being impossible to get a good grip on without a bulky case
- "nearly one day of battery" life being the bar for "what good battery life is"
Who trades a couple of millimeters of thickness in exchange for the above? I hope someone in Apple is listening and can convince themselves and others inside that thickness is not the enemy.
Apple prioritized camera over thickness at that point. Battery is lower on the list and is mostly addressed by CPU improvements.
IMO it’s frustrating that they are so conservative with a mature product. We waited over a decade for basic waterproofing. Apple has an incredible supply chain, but Samsung can deliver better/more diverse form factors. Example: ruggedish phones.
Apple’s focus is both amazing and frustrating to me. They had and lost an opportunity to break Microsoft clients in business.
I personally think the iPhone 4S's display was a good size and resolution, and the form factor is good for human hands. If they could close in the bezels a bit, cut off a tiny bit of chin and forehead, and make the shell like the iPhone 5C... and make it run Android... I'd probably be game.
They could probably procure a really nice display in terms of colour, switching speed, sustained brightness, and black levels, maybe even increase the refresh rate to 120Hz for the interaction latency benefit. At 960x640, the quality of each of those pixels could be spectacular, and it'd further help with the end-to-end latency.
For the last couple of years I didn't ever bring a smartphone with me, just my trusty Nokia 106, which itself gets about a month of standby time per charge. I still carry the 106 because I'm still not used to having to charge a device so often.
Also, most people have cases on their phone, which usually make the phone sit flat.
Then, when they finally made the iPhone 6 their sales were so large that the next year's phone was deemed a flop even though it did extremely well. (If one would remove iPhone 6 from the sales chart, the 6S would still continue the trend in increased sales every year).
I would love apple to also offer a smaller phone, but offering people what they actually want was not a mistake.
You can’t read customer preference from the market when they stopped offering choice in this regard. I bought a large phone because that’s the choice they offered and fucking hate it.
Also they did make the SE. I am pretty sure Apple knows what is most money making strategy.
This being said, they do offer (or will soon) a Mac Pro which clearly is not there to make big bucks. They could (and I would love them to) offer a smaller phone with latest internal specs. They do have bandwidth for that.
The software has me over a barrel. I would dump Apple hardware in a heartbeat if I could get it running on a phone built for reliability. I’d stop complaining about the hardware so much if they allowed independent app stores with better curation. Together makes me look for alternatives (which also suck mostly for software reasons).
2) The fact that Apple went so many years without a big screen phone, with people demanding it, and then when Apple.did release it they underestimated demand, proves that Apple can be mistaken in their assessment of the market. You're correct that just because people here seem to indicate they want a small phone doesn't mean a market for it exists. But I do remember the exact same comments being made about a larger screen size phone as well before the iPhone 6. IOW, just because Apple doesn't offer a small phone, doesn't mean the market for that doesn't exist either
Did the SE sell poorly?
I guess they're doing product development out of fear instead of boldness, now. Just a typical committee-led US corporation trending back to the mean. Maybe they should get a new CEO from Pepsi, again.
I would switch back in a heartbeat with a new SE. Moreover, I would love a high-end SE rather than a "low end" one.
It appears that the SE is 4 inches and the 6S is 4.7. I have a Pixel 3 non-XL and it is 5.5 which seems fine to me. But the Pixel 3 XL at 6.2 was going too far.
Anyway, a real Apple SE has a screen which is a little over 8 inches...
Not a fan at all, it's just too big for me. I'm 6'1"
DISCLOSURE: I'm a long-fingered former SE user who recently upgraded to an XR.
It's why I love my SE. Small, portable, good features a nice phone should have.
Ordinarily I would vote with my wallet, but there are no compact Android phones either.
Ironically I still own a Oneplus One which is quite old by todays standards; and I distinctly remember it being called a "Phablet" due to it's obtuse stature in comparison to its contemporaries. However it would not look out of place today, in fact in comparison to my friends iPhone Xs (not max) it hardly seems at all larger!
I would merrily slam down 1K+ EUR for a real flagship phone at a size I can actually use.
(also, I wonder how women get on, since generally they have smaller hands than men.)
As is, I have no inclination to give up my SE, and if it fails I'll almost certainly pick up another off eBay or similar.
I have to give up a bit of grip to get my thumb to the top corners of the screen, but it’s a lot better than anything else and I’d say worth the trade off for the extra space. Bigger than this I’m not convinced.
But I can only assume that Apple does plenty of market research on their products, so I assume people aren't checking off "the thing is too damn big" under "reasons I didn't upgrade?"
I however always have a bra strap. I end up storing my phone there most of the time.
The women around me adopted larger phones earlier, because they had purses to carry them in.
So in my circles it's already 50/50. But I do see iPhone 5's and SE's amongst my circles more commonly than I should given the age of the phone. I'm not 100% on why, though I often ask. And it's incredibly rare that it's a cost decision.
If her iPhone 5 is still running iOS 6, she is correct.
Bringing the SCR-300 back in style?
PopSockets. In my neck of the woods they are almost as common as phone cases. Some men also use them.
Oh wow, this is horrible.
People with smaller hands, regardless of gender, often use two hands. Once you're used to using two hands, there's no reason to have a smaller screen.
I’ve been out of luck since the iPhone 4, so I often go for the largest. Might as well get the best camera and battery life.
I've no interest in anything bigger than a 7/8, myself. An XS might be borderline okay.
I downgraded to an SE recently and the only thing I miss is the screen size; traded that for headphone jack, smaller form that fits my hand nicely, and a design I like better.
Yet here I am years later still double tapping my home button several times a day
Please don't :(
Wait what? This doesn't make sense. I remember getting OnePlus as well (bought it for a friend in Europe) and the screen size was pretty mainstream at that point. It had 5.46" size. It got released the same year Apple released 6+ which had bigger screen, and in US it doesn't get more mainstream than that. In no particular order a list of other pretty successful smartphones released in 2014:
- Galaxy Note 4 (5.7")
- Google Nexus 6 (6")
- HTC One (M8)(5")
- LG G3 (5.5")
- Droid Turbo (5.2")
Where do you live?
Your list reinforces the point you are using it to argue against.
No it wasn't, check the specs. My point is at the point when majority of phones were released in "phablet" sizes no one considered them to be odd anymore. 3 years earlier, perhaps but not in 2014. I remember getting zero strange looks walking around with 6 plus.
> The Samsung Galaxy Note series is a series of high-end Android-based _phablets_ and tablets developed and marketed by Samsung Electronics.
The overton window has shifted so much that things that used to look ridiculous and had to be labelled as a portmanteau look ordinary today.
There has never been a successor to the Nexus 4.
(1) Has a headphone jack
(2) Has the same processor as my Pixel 2
(3) Is actually a usable size (roughly the same as the Nexus 4)
I have giant hands and large pockets available but will always prefer a smaller phone.
On Samsung Galaxy S6 and later models, one can tap the home button three times to shrink the screen so that everything can be reached with one thumb. It's called "one-handed mode". I can't say I've used it very often, but when I need it, it's there.
For the iPhone X it's also there: https://mashable.com/2017/10/31/how-to-use-iphone-x-reachabi...
Not exactly convenient though.
Women actually have it better since they always have their purses to put their phones on.
Compared to the SE, the XR is 50% heavier -- even without a case. It doesn't have a good edge to hold onto being so thin, so it makes you want to hold on by the front. But every corner of the front of the device is a UI element that you can accidentally interact with. FaceID failed 90% of of the time for me -- and unlike the fingerprint reader, 100% of the time in the dark of night. That's before I get to the simple annoyances, like how it's not flat, doesn't fit in the pocket so well, and blasts my face full of light in the night.
So Apple lost a sale by not offering a product I want. If my SE breaks, I'll probably just pull my iPhone 1 out of storage -- it still works, has a great form factor, and a much lighter weight than any of Apple's current lineup. Sure EDGE is a little slow and I won't be able to use my Apple Pay, but those are problems I can live with. I live on large screens all day. I don't need a huge phone to be my computer.
I want a choice -- even if that choice is a remanufacture of a 2016 design. An updated design -- say an SE/30 -- would be great. But between that and the keyboard issues in the Macbooks, they've made an Apple fan with upgrades provided by work skip several product cycles. I read enough of these threads to know I'm not the only one. I just wish I knew why they kept leaving money on the table in the pursuit of thinness.
Fix it? The guides (and tools) from ifixit are great, screen will take a couple hours at most if you don't have shaky hands. Battery isn't too hard of a swap either.
If it's a screen, working pulls are like $30 from ebay. I don't recommend the aftermarket ones as the colors skew cold. My girlfriend's on her third SE screen now (we don't like cases) and it's still way cheaper than buying a replacement phone.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe EDGE has been disabled across a lot of the US.
AT&T shut their footprint off completely a few years ago to free up spectrum in 850mhz.
Hoping the new one lasts until they come out with a proper replacement. I don't care if the CPU, camera, etc. are 2-3 generations behind. There's nothing I use the phone for that the SE can't handle just fine.
The phone may still be functional, and the iPhone may be smarter, but I recently pulled out a flip phone from that era and it couldn't connect to any nearby cell towers. It was too out-of-date.
I got my 5S's battery replaced super cheap literally downstairs from my apartment. I suspect I might end up doing that again, though a potential lack of security upgrades might make me itchy.
iOS used to be much better than competition, but I don't think that's the case now.
I never liked big-ass phones, and in my opinion the best iPhone design was the iPhone4, this one was a real masterpiece.
But I won't pay a premium for a phone I don't like, when my SE will no longer do its job, it will be replaced by a cheap Android device.
But not again. I feel they’ve squandered the good will they’d earned with me by giving me a worse phone at double the cost. I don’t plan to purchase another.
I'm precisely in the same boat, but what are the iOS alternatives? There are none. Wouldn't touch anything Android with a long pole, because it has Google attached to it. Windows phone is a joke (if it still exists)... and there's nothing else that's not a dumb phone, is there?
One way Windows failed as a mobile OS is large storage requirements; "bloat" is one thing but a safe and reliable 'update' system adds overhead that made cheap Win mobiles marginal.
Glad to hear someone else shares this opinion! Still rocking an iPhone4 here.
My personal computer is a 2014 MacBook. My work computer is a MacBook. Being able to message freely from my laptop to others on iMessage is a really nice feature.
In practice, I have maybe one friend who regularly uses text messaging. Everybody in my neck of the woods uses Hangouts, Messenger, Threema, etc.
Having something like a Palm Phone that also acts as a hotspot would be a nice mashup. You can be productive with your laptop or tablet when you are able to sit down and pull it out or you can just have a very basic phone that doesn't let you do too much when you should be doing something else. I know that a lot of the time that I'm on my phone, I should be doing other things like actually working, talking to those around me, or just simply enjoying my surroundings. I still want the ability to contact someone quickly if I need to but I don't want to let myself get easily distracted with the phone in my pocket.
Simple commodity device...
I think they might lose some loyals users here.
I've been an iOS user since 2007.
I changed the battery on the 4S three times.
Last year I meet a translator from Russia who had a 3GS with the original battery! That really made me regret I sent in my original iPod Nano when Apple said the batteries where dangerous and replaced them with a 6th gen for free, who's battery died only a year later!
Now we know why, you can't sell light bulbs that last forever because the customer won't come back... one gen later the iPad Nano was gone from the market.
Apple has in fact stated that iOS 13 will run on the SE:
I believe the internals are approximately the same as the 6S, and I would expect that both will be supported for the same amount of time.
I don’t think Apple has confirmed any EOL for the SE. It’s not sold in the USA anymore, but isn’t it still produced in India for that market (maybe ending now that the 11 is announced, I’m not sure)?
Outside of providing a bigger screen, FaceID is strictly worse:
- When I pulled my old iPhone out of my pocket, I would have my finger on the scanner and it would be unlocked before it reached my face. With FaceID on the iPhone X, I have to wait a few seconds.
- If you wake up and you're squinting as you look at your phone, FaceID won't work
- If you're wearing a hat and sunglasses, FaceID might not work
- If you're doing something else but you want to unlock your phone on the side in preparation for your next task, you have to stop and look at the phone
I have both a work issued iPhone, and a personal pixel with a fingerprint unlock. I cannot recall any time I had issues with the pixel over the last month, while I'm extremely annoyed just thinking of how many times FaceID either took multiple seconds or didnt work at all.
That's on a 7+, though, and Macbook fingerprint sensors seem a little better (more like 50% success rate) so maybe it's just because it's an early version of the hardware.
If I didn’t need clean fingers to unlock TouchID to begin with, iPad OS’s new voice control accessibility feature would be great for in the kitchen. No need to touch the tablet at all any more.
I register two fingers, one with "normal" hands, and one after a session of rock climbing.
The thing I like better about Face ID is that it lets you hide the text of your notifications by default but then reveal it as soon as you look at the phone, which is nice for privacy.
I never enabled the setting to hide notification text in the past because it was too inconvenient before Face ID.
There's hardly any good iPhone SE-sized Android phones anymore. I have a Sony Xperia Somethingsomething Compact and it's the only option I'm aware of, and it's not really that great. I've never had an iPhone but if they release a new SE I'd probably jump ship in a heartbeat.
I'm hoping there's a decent Android phone in an SE size by the time my SE dies.
I wonder what data is motivating Apple with regard to phone sizes. I assume trends towards video and image consumption are really pushing for larger screens. Anyone have any insight or knowledge?
Another factor is the things that drive a person to spend $500+ on a phone are probably quite far removed from what they actually want from a phone from day to day. A big huge all encompassing screen is gonna outperform something that actually fits in your pocket every time.
I develop iOS apps and love my iPhone SE. It's a bit difficult to develop for that screen size, but it's only a little bit of additional effort and I wouldn't give up my phone for that. Plus, even if iPhone SE went away there are new devices with that form factor (for example, the new iPod Touch) that will be supported for quite some time.
So by developing apps compatible with the SE, it’s also helping the visually impaired.
~ Many people using phone as their only connected device (i.e., no computer at home)
~ Increased video and image consumption
~ More and more women buying smartphones (women tend not to be inconvenienced by large screens since they often store their phone in their purse)
So, an Iphone X?
- SE: 4.0" (10.16 cm)
- X: 5.8" (14.73 cm)
X's display is 45% larger, but the phone's total size is larger too.
You're off by almost a factor of 2, and furthermore that makes these increases significant in relative terms.
The 5S is 4.87"x2.31", the X is 5.65"x2.79", that's +0.78"/+16% in height and much worse +0.48"/+21% in width.
The phone is more "surface efficient" (phone diagonals goes from 5.4" to 6.3", or a 0.9" (and 16%) increase where the screen increased by 1.8") but it's still significantly bigger.
I don't care much which OS I have to run, they are all the same now. I just want a smart phone that fits in a single hand.
I tried the palm and it is a bit too small, and the battery life was insanely bad.
Maybe Purism could think about making a Librem 4 after the 5 releases. Double-down on the hacker-hobbyist niche.
The specs are far from the Librem 5, and software support is basically DIY, but at $150 it might be worth trying if you want a Linux hobbyist phone.
Might be hard to sell for a sensible price in that case.
Edit: additionally, it looks like the Xperia is thick enough to have no noticeable camera bump. Has a 3.5 mm jack too; I like the look of this quite a lot.
However that size would still be significantly wider horizontally than the SE, pretty much as wide as the 6/7/8 (which I found too wide for comfortable one-handed use).
In addition, they would probably keep the on/off button on the side instead of relocating it back to the top. The latter would be my preference, also for consistency with the iPads. When I owned both an iPhone 6 and an iPad mini, my muscle memory couldn't quite get used to the inconsistency of the on/off button location.
No confirmed successor and it was a bit pricey too...
I realize it's also the smallest recent high-end Android phone though!
Can't agree more with the sentiment here, great minds do think alike ;)
An SE sized X would be nice (with the Face ID and stuff), with a higher screen resolution, but I think it would become more fragile as a result.
Touch ID as well. Preferred over Face ID... grab phone with thumb it opens instantly (my personal experience).
Another year for myself Im not refreshing my iPhone. I did every year from 2009 to 2018; bought the XS last year and returned it. EDITED
I will be waiting for a smaller size phone that doesn't compromise on hardware and features, and if Apple doesn't make it within a year or so, then I'll start to look at alternatives. People talk about how Tim Cook is a logistics master, so it shouldn't be difficult to do a smaller sized phone. I don't want a cheaper, lower quality phone, I just want an iPhone XS that's smaller.
Only reason my 5s needed to go was because it doesn't support VoLTE, which the SE does, and is needed to get calls at my house.
As others have said, would totally spend $900 on a similar sized phone with upgraded internals. But, looks like I'll just hold onto this one for ever...
Not true. iOS 13's compatibility list includes iPhone SE (near the bottom): https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-13/
But if I have to give up the phone not falling out of my pockets and breaking, the removal of the aux jack, and the removal of Touch ID, why bother?
Are my interests unusual? Do they not want money? I don’t get it.
But I'm sure they could come up with some semi-plausible reason to make an "SE Pro" so they can keep those margins. How about owning the extra thickness and giving it a massive battery and using the depth to put killer camera optics in?
The 128 GB iPhone 8 is $499 with an A11.
They don't have to sell a new iPhone SE for less for $499. I'd pay that for it. Small is a premium. But would selling it at $399 really kill their margins?
Edit: the iPhone 8 64GB refurb pricing is now $379. That's a pretty good deal:
You would just need a wireless hotspot that the iPod would always be connected to, to use it as a phone (or maybe people can start bucking the trend of always being connected).
It's the same size as the SE, except a hair thinner, and has a 3.5mm headphone jack!
spec comparison: https://www.phonearena.com/phones/compare/Apple-iPhone-SE,Ap...
Only issue is most of these VoIP services can’t be used in a multi-factor authentication scheme since they don’t support short code SMS.
I’d pay iPhone pro money for an SE2 with iPhone XR or 11 hardware.
The SE to me is not a budget phone, it is a premium flagship and I am willing to pay for the feature of being small.
I might be wrong, but I recall that even though the SE had technically inferior components, including display, it seemed it had _better_ battery life than the latest iPhones of the time. I believe the latest was the iPhone 6 at the time. Presumably OLED might have changed this?
My 2009 MacBook Pro could still handle pretty much any 2019 computing I need to do, but the new OSs won't support it. That's understandable really, but how sorry is it that the 2019 keyboard is so bad that I prefer my 2009 model, even though it's slower to wake and boot.
My SE handles all phone tasks I throw at it, no problem (maybe the battery life could be better), but I hate all the new models. Apple pretty much perfected the laptop around 2014 and the phone with the SE in 2016. These are classic styles that were the culmination of a decade of design tweaks and component improvements. Each of those older generations could have been maintained with no more than small improvements in components (e.g., SSD) and ports going forward (until some kind of revolution in computing interfaces) and they would have happier customers.
I think that is not the case. They could just build something with A12 or A13 chip, call it "iPhone Mini" and have high margins again.
I think the real deal is mainboard design, case design and all the manufacturing pipeline can't scale to 4 models a year. They are focusing on the XR and now they even removed the suffix. They realized the cheaper model must be big enough. So every year they spend the resources there.
Maybe next year, they can spend one cycle doing a 4" screen form factor, since this year all the announcements have at least 2 cameras. So maybe next year the Pro will have only one screen size and they can do regular, mini and pro. Each with a different display size.
Even the iPhone 5 was too big.
If apple offered a modern SE, I'd probably buy it, but I'm also quite happy with my SE as-is. If the SE wasn't getting iOS 13, I don't know what I'd do... thankfully it is.