It is possible that neither would have committed their crimes but for their involvement in the CIA's mind experimentation programs. See, O'Neill, Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties (2019).
"After he shot Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby’s psychosis was diagnosed by the same CIA doctor who had once killed an elephant with psychedelics"
The same doctor happened to be around in the context of Charles Manson too :
"I could show that he was working out of the [Haight-Ashbury Free] clinic recruiting subjects for his research at the same time Manson was bringing the women in to see his parole officer there, but I was trying to get them in the same room. I felt like everything that Manson did with his women was exactly what the CIA was trying to do with people without their knowledge, in the exact same time, at the exact same place.
West had a history of doing research in inducing insanity without a person’s awareness. He reported that he had learned how to replace true memories with false ones. And he saw Jack Ruby [who shot JFK’s killer, Lee Harvey Oswald, in 1963] within the 24 hours that Ruby became insane."
Given that he secluded himself and wrote about his ideology for years like a comic book villain origin story, it's safe to say they took to too far, whatever it is they did.
Also, afaik MK tested lacing with different doses, and only the big incidents were disclosed. Why wouldn't you suspect drugging here too?
Edit: I also think this kind of thing exists in society today, but probably bought and sold on exclusive markets to modern lords and ladies.
Can you elaborate? I don't know what you're referring to.
I don't know if that is what is really happening and I doubt that it is, but I also don't know how to distinguish these experiences from that possibility.
I haven't heard Manson's story on the issue, but he would have already spent a decade incarcerated before they did anything.
Lets get real, when your goal is complete ego control, all forms of mindfucking are on the table.
Also, almost all of the MK Ultra files were destroyed. So what people know is residual and stories from guilt ridden scientists and abused people.
IMO the most interesting (and impactful, powerful) stuff is just plain-old psychology, like what is read in therapy books. You can apply it in nearly any situation in so many ways.
It adds on to intuition you'd feel normally, the really complicated social behaviors we act out on into concepts and frameworks. You can choose how you interpret and use it.
If you don't believe me, google: Dialectical behavior therapy, attachment theory, schema therapy with "filetype: pdf" in the query and load em into PDF reader. Kindle has good books.
Schema Therapy: https://www.guilford.com/excerpts/young.pdf
Attachment theory: https://www.behaviorology.org/oldsite/pdf/AttachmentTheoryBe...
I'm trying to spread the message far and wide so people can know and get woke. This is stuff I wish I knew 15 years ago.
Makes one wonder why would a state research mind control from drugs, when mind control from history books and newspapers is already so efficient.
Just speculating that if I was a military commander, yeah, I'd go for saturating a place with drugs to keep the people there from planting IED's way before I would trust history books to do so. Just strikes me as way more reliable.
If history is any indication, using history books to get people to behave decently doesn't seem terribly reliable at all.
This observation alone leads me to believe that there is some very effective propaganda that's been going on for a good while.
Impossible to find out for sure of course, as the only propaganda that is visible is the propaganda that fails.
And that's just the drugs we know about, just imagine the secret ones we don't know about.
Take X drug, it will have Y effect on every human. Immediately. That's the definition of efficiency. Keeping with the original example, that's the sort of efficiency and effectiveness a military leader would want when waging a campaign against an enemy. Far more swift, efficient, and effective than using a history book.
Blatantly false. Not everyone you uses XYZ drug ends up a hopeless addict. The vast majority of people use the drug with no long term negative effects addiction, including methamphetamine, heroin, cocaine et al
> No such thing as "I'm too strong to be affected by this drug." (heroin, crystal meth.)
Sure they will effect you
> Or "I can quit whenever I want." (opium, flakka.)
Within addiction, sure. Non-addiction use, false. You can stop whenever you want. Getting addicted to a substance is not as easy as people think. You need to be using through the day for multiple days in a row. You can use heroin every weekend without getting addicted, so long as you stop during the week
> Take X drug, it will have Y effect on every human
To an extent, different people can vary degrees of effects from the same dose when tolerance is not an issue
And its hard to disagree that secret torture chambers (like, literally, thousands of them) being operated by shadowy figures who are not accountable to anyone is anything less than a total usurpation of the founding principles of the USA ..
if both occured I seek the shortest explanation that explains the most observations
The immediate response was “They’d be blown away.” Which piques my curiosity of course. Then again...that statement could just be a psyop. Twisty little passages.
Some other recent thread here talks about how the Hubble Space Telescope was created from leftover CIA spy satellite gear. Read a bunch of near-future sci-fi and some of those ideas are bound to be hits.
My take is that by about the late 80's, early 90's, they had finished most of the research and transitioned into implementation at mass scale, both domestically and internationally. Extrapolate from that what you may.
"In their propaganda today’s dictators rely for the most part on repetition, supression and rationalization – the repetition of catchwords which they wish to be accepted as true, the supression of facts which they wish to be ignored, the arousal and rationalization of passions which may be used in the interests of the Party or the State. As the art and science of manipulation come to be better understood, the dictators of the future will doubtless learn to combine these techniques with the non-stop distractions which, in the West, are now threatening to drown in a sea of irrelevance the rational propaganda essential to the maintenance of individual liberty and the survival of democratic institutions. -- Aldous Huxley, "Propaganda in a Democratic Society"
Brave New World Revisited"
That was in 1975 talking about the events in the 1950s. There is this idea that, well CIA might have gone a bit too far, but it was a long time ago. Hiring Nazi scientists, feeding people drugs, murdering, overthrowing governments, conducting torture sessions. That was in those old dark and confused times. Today they just sit at their desks and type reports like nice little bored bureaucrats.
What if they are just as evil and brutal today and we just don't know about it. I have a hard time believing that as an organization, they sort found their moral one day and decided they need to start behaving.
> “Well, he’s gone,” the caller had said. Abramson replied: “Well, that’s too bad.”
Abramson is a doctor treating Olson. Surely, after being told his patient is gone, he would be horrified and demand to know all about the tragedy. But the conversation indicates they were both expecting it to happen. Well who is Dr Harold Abramson, were there any other suspicious deaths associated with his patients. What the heck was Abramson doing that made Olson reconsider seeing his family again and instead opted to head back to New York to this doctor instead. How many Dr. Abramsons are there around today I wonder...
Pay attention to America's illegal wars, and the nature of the innocent victims.
Yes, these wars are evil and brutal. That is why the American people are kept un-informed about them.
But if you peek beneath the propaganda you will find the ugly truth: the people of the USA have been hoodwinked into letting their military-industrial complex ruin civilisation around the world.
What if they are just as evil and brutal today and we just don't know about it.
Just throwing this out here, but what if it's both. They, like every other nation in the world, are evil and brutal, and the vast majority of them are just sitting at desks somewhere doing fairly mundane jobs. That's just the nature of a modern intelligence agency I bet.
Not just the IC but in general.
Bureaucracies which create disassociation from accountability are necessarily evil.
So yeah, I'd imagine you're correct.
can someone clarify how this works? how does signing away a right work? isn't it just a contract?
am I correct that people in such a situation could in theory still seek legal relief, but that in doing so they "merely" violate this "contract"?
This is a really disconcerting story for a population that tends to assume we're the good guys.
does the law explicitly regulate settlement, new grounds, etc or is it emergent behaviour or "standard operating behaviour" of which everyone assumes that is what the law says as opposed to what the law actually says?
Edit: perhaps a clearer phrasing in everyday language: is there a difference between how lawyers, judges, ... have the cookie crumble versus how the law says cookies should crumble?
as if such disputes are never settled by court?
The "staring at goats" tale is an example of PSY-OPs tested on the public, wholly successfully. Ever wonder how we got fired up to invade Iraq when the UN inspector was perfectly clear that there were no WMDs there, and we knew Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11?
The Pentagon has never been able to begin to account for the trillions of dollars it gets. Is there any possibility much of it is not piped through black programs into convenient pockets?
The article insinuates this group of CIA & army scientists was responsible for the "ergot" poisoning in the french village, has any new evidence to this regard come to light besides the theory / book published in 2009?
>In his 2009 book, A Terrible Mistake, writer Hank P. Albarelli Jr alleged that the Special Operations Division of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) tested the use of LSD on the population of Pont-Saint-Esprit as part of its MKNAOMI chemical behavior program in a field test dubbed Project SPAN. According to Albarelli, the ergot contamination explanation had been challenged and "ruled out". Historian Stephen Kaplan dismissed Albarelli's theories and assertions as "hardly possible", and anthropologist Bernd Rieken [de] wrote that "even in the secular society of the present, substitutes for the devil and other demons may be found, in this case the CIA, which some people believe capable of every conceivable evil".
Especially the last quote seems very naive After reading the following paragraph from the posted article!
>“In CIA safe-houses in Germany,” according to one study, “Olson witnessed horrific brutal interrogations on a regular basis. Detainees who were deemed ‘expendable’ – SUSPECTED spies or moles, security leaks, etc – were literally interrogated to death in experimental methods combining drugs, hypnosis and torture, to attempt to master brainwashing techniques and memory erasing.”
capitalization mine: suspects being interrogated to death without any form of due process or trial?
So we have a story about american (and presumably also west german) agents interrogating / experimenting suspects to death in safehouses in germany, and then we have an american-born historian Stephen Kaplan and a german (psychologist?) dismissing that western powers would ever perform feats typically associated with east-german Stasi practices. Guantanamo bay also happened, and was rubberstamped by psychologists / psychiatrists...
some real class acts these CIA & army biological warfare gents!
Big if true. The book doesn't come out till October. I wonder if this is the only circumstantial evidence they have? If they can place him in the actual village, that would be something.
> In spring 1953, he visited the top-secret
Microbiological Research Establishment at Porton Down in
Wiltshire, where government scientists were studying
the effects of sarin and other nerve gases. On 6 May,
a volunteer subject, a 20-year-old soldier, was dosed
with sarin there, began foaming at the mouth,
collapsed into convulsions, and died an hour later.
On the other hand, each time such a thing surfaces the most surprising is always that it seems to have surfaced due to this automatic declassification mechanism that I've never heard of an equivalent anywhere else in the world. In most places, including many modern and wealthy democracies, I believe you would just expose yourself to troubles if you asked for some clarifications about any ancient classified material.
I wonder if there is any recommended source to learn more about how this law/practice came to be?
this dark current should be excised from society as the declassifications show they more often undermine our security from domestic and foreign sources
And some countries have interests to protect.
That's the difference. It's not morality, it's whether or not you have anything to lose.