Their support has been useless when I asked about this, insisting that their approach was perfectly secure and that their other customers don't care:
> We have now more than 85,000 companies from all over the World who have accepted and agreed with our Terms and Conditions and I am happy to say that we have never had any issues with these matters.
If I may, an off-topic question. I am completely unsatisfied with any addressbook software and have been looking at a ton of CRMs for personal use. I would prefer something open source, but anything self-hosted would do.
The one feature that most CRMs are missing is CardDav and CalDav syncing. I need my contacts on my phone. Do you know of any opens source or otherwise self-hosted CRM that supports CardDav and CalDav for contacts and appointments?
My most recent attempt a few weeks back (following the debian guide in the GH repo + a few fixes on Stack Exchange) resulted in a page that lets you 'register' your first account but for some reason does not load any page. It just appears to either infinitely load or returns nothing, not even an empty HTML file.
I'm sure the hosted offering is great, I'd rather not invest any more personal information onto someone else's servers.
OT -> At some point I'm gonna get up the nerve to crack open a F# giraffe site and write up a small Personal CRM site.
I would want to track things like name, high school graduated, favorite color, name of dog, relationship to me, relationship to other people in the site, reminders to write them a letter every X days, 'on deck' lunch dates I need to plan, etc. Something like a mobile web-ready email-reminder enabled Farley File (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farley_file).
With notebooks, tags and events.
For customers I have single template in form of definition list (html's <dl> under the hood):
- principal contact:
- service until:
Thanks for your feedback! I just want to mention that Wobaka is $49 for all of your team, not per user. So if you're more than 3 users it's not more expensive :).
Pricing is a form a bike shedding. You can spend an infinite amount of time worrying about it, and there is no one right answer.
But one thing that a fixed price of $49/mo regardless of team size will do for you is put a hard cap on how much you will work on closing a single account.
Even assuming a very sticky product, by fixing the price your guaranteeing a whale isn’t going to show up in your inbox, promise the world if only features X, Y, Z existed, get you running in circles chasing that ghost, and then disappear without paying a dime, leaving with a pile of code that adds no value to your true customer base.
This pattern is extremely common for small companies that dream of being the next Enterprise SaaS, and the big companies with high probability will never buy from you, but will have no problem dangling carrots that waste your extremely valuable cycles.
Fixing the price is a very overt way to maintain focus and declare that you are going to own your own feature set and build the product you want to build, take it or leave it.
As a sole proprietor this is the safest way for you to grow your company at this stage.
Ignore all pricing discussions and just focus like hell on features that increase your SAM (the number of customers who could actually use your product), your reach (the percentage of your SAM that know you exist) and your conversion (the percentage of people who know you exist that ever actually pay you money).
Also remember that when you start out, the customers you have are not always the customers you want. The low monthly price is a great way to say, tell me what you like and don’t like, but don’t expect me to move mountains to build something special for you.
Also, Basecamp: https://m.signalvnoise.com/why-we-never-sold-basecamp-by-the...
You should reconsider this pricing model because a client of any considerable size is both able and willing to pay for a product that is financially stable. $49 won't keep the lights on, and the fear of investing time and data into a system that won't survive financially due to poor pricing might scare off some potential customers.
People who spend time worrying about what could go wrong don’t make good business operators. The truth is, when you get a business off the ground so many things go fantastically wrong and so many go fantastically right and you’ll have not anticipated any of it.
Let the person who built this CRM focus on the only thing they really need to worry about: building an awesome product and getting people to pay them for it.
Don't you think it's a just little premature for that scale of thinking? I mean, they just got the thing posted on HN.
$49/m is just so obviously underpriced that it rings alarm bells - how could that possibly be sustainable, will it still be around in 6 months?
CRMs are usually ridiculously overpriced.
The company is just me and I'm not trying to land huge customers. Therefore I need no marketing or customer support team. I'm building it for myself and other small businesses. I think I can make that sustainable. I also have no interest in being acquired so you won't have to worry about that either :).
Setting expectations and putting people in the right funnel is not. Especially if it’s a cheap change like adding a button.
I built an eBay feedback reminder (that's had over 15,000 paying users over the course of its life).
Here's the thing: eBay already sends feedback reminders and people pay to use mine anyway because of some minor differences (and then there are customers who don't know eBay sends feedback reminders).
Pretty much every nay say anyone who hasn't succeeded in business could give you is total fluff.
1. up to 10 users: $49/mo
2. 11–25 users: $99/mo
3. 26–100 users: $199/mo
4. 101+ users: call me
As anyone who has tried to buy a CRM will know, these prices are crazy low. Which is a good thing!
No, no it's not. CRM is incredibly valuable to any business and if your software provider can't sustain it's own businesses because they charge too little, the last thing you want to deal with is switching costs (direct costs and hassle) when they go under.
Better make sure they don't then so you won't have to support a large company that signed up because of the low price.
I was first introduced to this concept by a colleague who was going to serve customers manually instead of us programmers automating it. I said he was going to have a major issue when lots of people sign up. He replied "That is definitely a problem I want to have, I hope I get completely overloaded, because then we have the money to automate it".
I guess it is related to Paul Grahams "do things that don't scale", but "problem I want to have" is broader.
Since then I always evaluate if certain problems are the ones I want to have, because then I know I can postpone them.
I think you are missing the point that in this case you _don't_ have the money.
And they don't sign.
And it turns out what you worked on for them isn't something other customers of their size really quite want. But if you jump through these hoops...
If they are your customer, there's no more hoops to jump through.
I don't see the problem you are describing here.
You don't renegotiate from $49 to $60,000...
a lot people seem to forget that there's a lot of b2b on the small-to-medium size.
They blogged (alas can't find the link now) they did that deliberately in order not to be beholden to larger customers, they wanted to treat all customers equally.
From memory, their logic was that even if you decide to treat all customers equally, if you have one customer with 1k seats paying $30k, and another with 1 seat paying $30, you'll just end up treating the customers differently, it's just human nature, and there's nothing you can really do about that.
> Start your 7 day free trial now. After that it's $49 per month, total.
How about clarifying it to something like:
> 7 day free trial: after that unlimited users costs $49 per month. That's for your entire team!
Something that brings home the point of how much of a difference this is compared to the "per-agent" pricing that's pretty much standard.
I'll leave it to others to decide how viable this pricing is :-)
EDIT: Also, just wanted to let you know there's a typo on https://wobaka.com/#/sign-up
> That's a total, no matter how many people --> your <-- are.
If that is the case, can I ask why you are not mirroring the pricing of your competitors more? If you're not competing on price, what are you competing on?
I'm competing on making a CRM that's actually enjoyable to use and not just a way to keep track of your sales team :).
 - https://www.nutshell.com/pricing/
 - https://www.nutshell.com/security/
1. Estonia company creates some issues for corporate clients.
2. Form fields jammed together & tiny & harder for older users.
3. Not much going on in terms of automation, A.I. or triggers based on contact activity.
Again, much to say, but those are few.
You mentioned they need to track inventory! Are they looking to do that across multiple sales channels?
I built Trunk which would centralize their inventory and sync it in real-time across everywhere they sell (e.g. Etsy, Shopify, Faire, eBay, Amazon, Square, Squarespace, etc.). If they also need to track their bundles/kits, Trunk can do that too.
Feel free to visit the website and chat with me (bottom right icon)!
The Wobaka "screenshots" are also obviously fake, but there is enough detail that they still give me a clear idea of what the intention is.
What we already have:
An app that is used by 100000+ active users to manage their contacts and put them into groups.
What we want to add:
Each Group would have a Tree of States
Each State would have (full HTML) Email Templates that you customize with our mobile editor
You would be able to send template emails from your phone and track email opens and link clicks, and get notifications.
Each “email open” or “link click” can move people into a new state, from 5a to 5b so to speak. Of course, primary states would have names.
You would also be able to place calls and take HTML notes on each contact, which can include images etc.
The CRM would let you see at a glance who is in what state in the pipeline (actually, a tree).
Also, business card scanning that saves contacts in bulk, then you categorize them based on Group
We may also, later, want to add other features, such as “countdown” graphics and other widgets to the templates, and tasks for teams.
In your experience, what would be a good market clearing price for such a CRM? You would be able to do everything from your PHONE, rather than having to go to your computer. Do you know of a CRM like this? Or even an app that an track email opens? I only know NewtonMail maybe.
I was thinking of charging $20, $50 and $100 a month plans, for 200 emails, 1000 emails or 10,000 emails per month, respectively.
I used to use it as a customer and was a consultant for it until a lot of the work in that area started drying up.
Seemed to be the CRM of choice in 2010; nowadays, Salesforce, ServiceNow, and Zendesk seem to be the frontrunners in that space.
There's a few unanswered questions that I hope it's helpful to point out;
* Importers -> If I want to switch, how long will it take me to move from a potential system (Excel, Google Sheets, Salesforce, etc) into Wobaka?
* Integrations -> If I send an email can that come from my Outlook Gmail and be shown? Can I see emails from my colleagues towards a contact if they want to?
* What does a workflow look like? A gif of going from New Contact -> Adding them into an Org I'm talking to -> Sending the first message would do a lot here.
* How do I engage with my colleagues? Can I tag them in tasks, or pass things along to them?
Promising. Anyone who seems to take inspiration from Basecamp is worth at least 30 extra seconds consideration in my book.
Basecamp is the company behind Rails and they were IMO one of the driving forces that made Ajax accessible and web application developement enjoyable.
Their UX was (and probably is) good, and their business philosophy flies right in the face of "unicorn or nothing" which means I wish more people would learn from them. Heh, I realize I'm probably not meant to say that here, but based on previous experience I expect it to be tolerated : )
- Signed: a Java (and other languages) developer that is happy for Rails
I just finished up an importer this weekend so it's easy to import your contacts from csv files.
Def going to make that GIF and look into colleague engagement more :).
Marketing page doesn't convince me that it's a different CRM. Lists usual stuff. Actually quite lacking if the business cannot apply their customizations/business rules/validations/workflows.
During that time, we’ve seen some terribly unintuitive software and other offerings that look as though they’ll be great but lack some key feature.
Every CRM has a gotcha that you won’t find until you use it in anger.
IMO, seven days is not enough but I also think no evaluation is long enough unless you have the resources to run it fully in parallel to your existing process.
Bad, yes. But boring? I really don't look for fun and excitement from work software.
Excel wouldn't become any more useful if it was painted pink and had wacky icons
There are other reasons this will be tough, but I don't think this is one. The issue that comes to mind for me is integrations.
The brand colors look so similar that you could get the impression that it's a Basecamp product. It almost looks like you took their background color and changed it by the smallest amount possible just so it wasn't an exact match if you compared the hex colors.
I think it's hard to differentiate on design fully as a basic CRM. One idea you could look into as both a feature set and a focus of your marketing is leaning into the idea that you're the ideal first CRM and you make migrating to Salesforce dead simple.
You can snag ppl like our company who have been told you'll eventually need to be on Salesforce but aren't ready for all of that overhead. Then once you've got a community of users, you have a chance at adding more and more functionality that will get people to stay with you instead of migrating.
I've always thought there was a market opportunity around that.
That's interesting. I'll always help you export your data whenever you want manually until I've built a good export tool :).
This is what I look for first when evaluating CRM software, which gives me an idea of the underlying schema and how to extend or integrate the software.
Most smaller CRM's do not support multiple price books, for example, that can be critical to businesses that have price differences between sales channels and regions.
A typical use case, customer story, for your solution would be helpful.
Also, I'd love to see some analytics / visualization features (or integrations into Looker/Tableau)!
Does not answer why I would choose this over all the other 1000000 of CRM offerings (just in our office we tried Zoho, Close.io, Salesforce, Pipedrive,....).
Plus, not fully sold on the "Built to last - Wobaka is like your favorite craft beer or artisan coffee. Made with love and hand-picked ingredients. No mega-corp here." pitch.
Great effort tho.
OP you're just straight up not going to get people for who stability is a priority any time soon. Your target market is people who like to fiddle with their work tools, likely beyond pragmatism and in to productivity as a hobby territory. Guy that wants to get his organisation on to something and know he wont have to think about it again, ie the guy who cares about "built to last", is going to go Salesforce and call it a day.
When you say that it's for small businesses and it's really efficient and light, I think people will identify with that. As long as features keep getting added to platforms, we will always need a super lightweight version. Again, I hope you get some paying users right away!
I think I'm just missing something and I see these as clashing messages that don't get fully explained: this platform will make you smile and you'll have fun using it, this platform is faster than other platforms, and it's built for small businesses. I'd ask you "How?" for all three of those.
Just some thoughts from a marketer who thinks about positioning and looks at lots of landing pages. I hope you ignore all advice, trust your gut, and have tons of success :)
Get people on board with free product than offer value add. A CRM requires trust.. so spend money on the brand or give a free tier and build trust.
It's Clojure + ClojureScript, using a view library called Rum :).
Would you like to share more about your experience building a live product with Clojure? Did you face any challenges due to the smaller community and smaller set of libraries compared to something mainstream like Python or Go?
I've built products with Python, Ruby and Node before and Clojure has been super fun!
Not missing anything particular. Since it has interop with both Java and JS you can often find libraries if you like to.
In any case, good luck with your business!
There will be an api later on. I'm building this for small businesses, so I don't want to bother them with enterprise features they won't use :).
Remember lots of systems generate leads/customers, so if you don't want to provide tools for all those various systems, you need to offer an API.
Also on your sign up page, there's a typo:
"Wobaka cost way less than lost deals" should be
"Wobaka costs way less than lost deals"
Unless Wobaka is plural?
As I mentioned, there will be an API soon (same as I'm using for the frontend). Just have to document it.
I'm making this for myself and other small businesses. So not really interested in enterprise :).
Open source model is interesting though and I've thought about it before. We'll see :)!
What I really like is when there's a video showing what it's like to use the product.
I launched my leave tracking app (https://leavetracker.app) a couple of months ago and once I'm finally happy with the design I'll be making a video for it, I think it can really help with conversions.
I'm always impressed when one person alone builds a product and actually ships it. It's a very different journey to working in a team on a startup. Best of luck!
You'd automate the video publish pipeline, of course, and then it would be like a cross between a high-level UX test and a rehearsal for your pitch. You'd get really good at the workflows you demo, which would probably make the demo more impressive, and you'd be more likely to clean up any rough edges or annoyances that you come across repeatedly.
Also Garden for CSS so it's 100% Clojure :D.
And when a company of 100 signs up...... oops.
I also learn from others and save design inspiration all the time and share it on Klart.io/pixels.
But then again, I guess an amusing meaning can be found for any word if you allow interpreting its parts in different languages.
Baka = Fool
Src: Typed "wo in Japanese" and "baka in Japanese" into Google.
From a language perspective, を is most commonly transliterated wo when used in isolation. When used as a particle, it's generally transliterated as o. It also follows the noun rather than proceeds it. So if the intent of wobaka is to mean something like idiot (as the object of a sentence) a number of liberties have been taken.
There's an honorific o お that does precede a noun, which I've never seen transliterated wo.
CRMs are tools for sales managers (and folks further up in the hierarchy) to know what's going on in their org. An incidental benefit is that reps have useful views of what's going on with their prospects, but ease of use for them is just not a concern of the buyer (hence the wild success of Salesforce, which just sucks to use).
In some categories of enterprise software, ease of use is a benefit. I was at Box in the early days when one of the big value props is that people would actually use it, because at the time they were using unsanctioned tools like Dropbox. The issue there was that managers didn't have an easy well of telling when people were using those tools, so the idea that good UX would entice users to stick with company-approved software was a good selling point.
With CRMs, that's not the case. As a rep, you're judged on your performance, and the way people see your performance is via the information you put in your CRM. If you're tracking a bunch of leads outside of your CRM, your manager will know (because you have to keep them in the loop on your deals). Thus, there's no reason for sales management to be concerned about ease of use - their CRM is going to get used because the alternative is that the reps are going to get fired.
My impression based on your marketing pages and this post is that you didn't really take the time to understand the CRM market and buyers before you built this. Your $49/month for a whole team pricing structure makes no sense - companies are absolutely willing to pay more (and are very willing to pay per user). Having a price point that low is more likely to scare off serious buyers than entice them. The fact that all of your messaging is directed at a rep is a huge problem. You need to focus on things that matter to your buyers (reporting, lead routing, pipeline management, etc.). "Wobaka is the CRM system that will make you smile" is a bad tagline - the folks buying this don't care if the people using it smile. They care about money. If your product doesn't make money (by improving time to close and/or likelihood of close), then they're not buying it whether people smile or not.
The good news is you've solicited this feedback early, and the fact that you have a well-designed UI definitely isn't a bad thing. If I were you, though, I would stop development and spend most of your time getting this in front of people in sales management to see what their feedback is. Find out what problems they have with their existing CRMs and try to solve those.
But Hubspot gets one thing right that I never understood other CRMs can't do. If Hubspot sees an email from email@example.com, they automatically make a new contact for that name, and a new organization for that company (derived from the @company.com), enrich it all with available data (employee size etc), which I guess they get from some Clearbit-like data. This is super useful, because it means all relevant organization about a new lead who just reached out is just there. The only manual logging I ever have to do is eg log calls or write internal notes. No bookkeeping whatsoever.
Similarly, if I want to log someone I met at, say, a conference, I just enter their email address from their business card (or whatever) and -poof- the contact and organization are there. Maybe I'll add the phone number if they're oldschool like that, but that's it. All the otherfields are immediately in "good enough" mode.
A while later I tried Close.io, who advertise loudly in the blogosphere about how much other CRMs make you click and type, and I had to make every contact and organization by hand! How is that automation? I simply don't understand how any CRM in 2019 can ship with so much manual data entry. What am I missing? Is my use case such an edge case?
If you'd add stuff like this, then maybe I'd be interested in switching over. But having to manually maintain every single piece of data, when much information is publicly available from various sources, is just not worth my time.
And if you have this feature, I'd highlight it proudly on the website :D
To other HN'ers, if you have suggestions for CRMs that get this right, I'm interested.
I’d probably rank it as the worst bit of software I’ve ever used. The apis are inconsistent and incomplete. You can have multiple email addresses for a contact, but you can never extract them over the api and the only the primary is treated as a first class citizen. The interface somehow manages to portray the least amount of useful information in the largest amount of space I’ve ever seen. Updating anything is so painful that it’s hard to motivate yourself to do it.
Sorry for the poor experience you've had with the HubSpot CRM. We are working hard to make things better -- especially the APIs and how we present information in the Contact view.
Thanks for the candid feedback.
Things have gotten marginally better over the last couple of years since we started using it, but it’s still not a great experience. Every part feels a bit kludged together. Take email integration. Really you should be doing something like closeio which just reads and syncs emails. Instead you rely on a plugin to bcc on send (miss the boat and the whole email chain is gone forever). But I don’t want to use the plugin (for reasons I don’t recall, oh maybe because I had to remember to keep turning it off all the time when emailing domains outside what we wanted in the crm). But then there are the obtuse track vs log flags, and depending on what you do, you may or may not receive the responses later in hubspot so someone else maybe can’t deal with it while you’re off.
There’s a lot more candid feedback I could give, but the response from the support team so far is basically, “put it in the forum”. Which seems to be the place ideas go to die.
I populate some things based on the domain but not all that you mention. I like these little smartness things and I want to do this. It's one of the things I'm going to try to make this autumn :).
It's written in CodeIgniter and has a lot of hooks so we were able to trick it out quite extensively. And it will create a lead or contact if information is sent through a web form that you can create on the platform.
We created a curl interface that fronts several different forms that feed into the CRM including contact and registration forms on various different sites.
Disclosure: I work there and would love feedback.
1. I'd like to see a zapier integration asap.
2. Consider a MixMax integration. Ping me if you want a contact there; or perhaps they'll catch this thread.
You can reach me at gardner ...\at/... hiredinsight ...\dot/... co