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There was another pretty interesting post a while back along similar lines. The guy set up a fake profile with a very attractive guy, a great job, and an exciting persona. Basically every woman's dream guy.

He then used this fake profile to message the girls he was interested in. Pretty much every woman opened up their souls, dreams, and wishes to this fake Cassanova. He then uses this inside information to make his real self more interesting and the conversation more engaging when he messages them and goes on dates.

I'm surprised that nowadays this trick is considered so fresh. I've done it back in the day in the 90s on chatrooms. But then I was a stupid teenager, nowadays I wonder why these guys do this nonsense. I'm not into online dating right now, but couldn't they gather the same information by simply talking? Isn't this hack a trick reserved for socially awkward people who can't make up a decent conversation on the spot?

You only get one chance to make a first impression. With this hack, you get two.

Every day I discover a new reason not to use dating websites. I think if all these dudes used this time to improve their social skills, they would one day realize such hacks are pointless. And if you imagine adapting these techniques to RL, things start to look really creepy, don't they :)?

Unless they are teens, that's like a hack 'how to avoid natural human communication'. Nevertheless, I wish them good luck in dating experience.

You might as well say that every day you find another reason to not go dating, at least that's how I feel about it. Saying that "not everyone you like will be attracted to you" is a very nice way of putting it. In my experience, most people are attracted to stupid things. I've tried the classical "acting like a charming douchebag" routine, and I've been horrified at the rate of success in the traditional meat markets.

The point is that dating outside of your social circle is a numbers game. You will be seeing the averages most of the time, and most people are simply not worth your time. At least that's the impression I've been left with after playing around with this stuff in different places the last year.

As to whether playing games like this is pointless or not...if you're looking for the love of your life, then probably yes. But if you're looking for sex and short-term, uncommitted relationships, games like these are the best way to get what you want! I see this as just a natural extension of all the phoniness that happens in night clubs. The point is, playing games works! You'd be horrified at how many women, especially under 30, treat dating as a game..and have the most stupid reactions as a result. These people are probably not worth investing too much time in, but they do represent the average person you will meet. Which is really sad, but it's the impression you'll be left with after going out a lot.

Dating IS a game no matter if you're looking for sex or a relationship. It's always a stack of little challenges and responses, and yes, there's also tricking involved. What I implied in my post is that no matter if these online hacks get you where you wanted, in the end you only got there because you were faking accounts just to start a conversation.

Second of all, IRL or online, for me it's about doing it the natural way - you know - talk to people. That's what dating online on dating websites should look like, but from the ammount of 'hacks' and 'howtos' I read about, seems it isn't. If I'm to waste my time playing against bunches of creepos with armies of fake accounts instead of socializing with real girls - sorry, I'm out.

Saying that "not everyone you like will be attracted to you" is a very nice way of putting it

Aren't you replying here to ZoFreX's post above, which is not mine? :)

Could you be more specific about the acting like a charming douchebag routine?

Yeah, sure. Coming from a somewhat over-nerdy background and being a bit of a late bloomer, I've read a lot of the stuff that you can find in the "pick-up community" and tried out some of it in practice. So this particular part is just the more sleazy parts of that; making fun of the girl in a charming way, using jealousy (acting actively uninterested if she shows interest, flirting with her friends) etc, making overtly sexual jokes etc. All this stuff is assuming that you have some semblance of rapport in the first place though, there is a lot of subtelty that's a bit hard to explain in three sentences ;)

The thing is, outside the limited context of completely no-strings flirting, it's really disappointing to see these things work. It's so phony. Maybe some girls feel the same thing the first time they dress up really revealing and all the guys treat them differently.

I'm completely with you. Never had problems swiftly identifying common ground and starting a conversation - isn't that what profiles and messages are for?

Seems some people just aren't happy with the poor response rates on dating sites, but that's just how it goes... not everyone you find attractive will find you attractive. I imagine that the "cheating" method wouldn't produce better long term results, as not cheating means those you talk to genuinely want to connect with you.

> I've done it back in the day in the 90s on chatrooms

In the late 80's I did something similar with a Minitel-based chat system. It required a bunch of computers and a couple phone lines.

I don't see how what amounts to lying can be considered a clever solution. By these standards, the biggest liars are the best hackers.

This is the problem that I have with both of these pseudo-hacks. Both persons are liars and cheaters, which is socially not accepted, except when dating apparently...

From what I hear - yes... My friends who worked for whitehat security companies would first try to hack staff before hacking servers.

Best was to call up the ceo on his personal homephone every night at 3am, until they knew what he sounded like raving mad. Then they called up the admins doing a very good impression of the irate ceo demanding his passwords were reset there and then. Worked a stupid amount of times apparently...

So yes, lying can be hacking and hacking can be lying.

>Best was to call up the ceo on his personal homephone every night at 3am, until they knew what he sounded like raving mad

That is gold...

Now I want to be a whitehat pentester even more than I did before.

tptacek at Matasano is the man you want to talk to: http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=tptacek

These kind of hacks are paid for and authorised, I didn't see any signed contracts in these dating "hacks".

Don't buy into the notion that if it's not "ethical" it's not hacking.

If its not ethical, its almost illegal. And here it also deals with a buzzword "privacy".

Don't buy into the notion that if it's not "legal" it's not hacking.

One of the things that makes hacking possible is that the actual rules are different than the stated rules.

It's not lying, it's called social engineering.

Social engineering is a euphemism for lying or hiding the truth. It is at its core based on manipulation and as any tool it can be used for good of for bad. Using it to get sex is not what I consider "greater good".

I suppose calling it engineering does make one feel better though... it almost sounds like something positive.

To quote Dr. Gregory House, everybody lies (and hides the truth). Especially during dates. Why do you think the cliché advice for dating is "be yourself"?

For an amusing view of how the world would be without the lying, watch the movie The Invention of Lying.

Lying is probably unavoidable. There are innocent lies, or lies that are told for the greater good - these can be acceptable, although they should still be regarded with suspicion.

And then there are lies like the one in this example. Where not only the lie is self-serving, but it had the potential to hurt other people. Imagine you're one of the other guys using the service and you try to talk to one of those fake profiles. You get your hopes up and then the fake profile cuts communication or plays a practical joke and invites you on a date. Don't you think that's at least a little cruel?

Being cruel to people is cruel. You can accomplish that by telling the truth too ("Yes you are fat", "Santa does not exist").

Lying is a tool, it can be used for good or bad.

> Lying is a tool, it can be used for good or bad.

That's precisely the point. Here lying was done for personal gains.

>You can accomplish that by telling the truth too ("Yes you are fat", "Santa does not exist").

Why are your examples cruel?

Someone learns that they need to address their weight problems before it affects their health badly or if they want to woo you or whatever.

Someone else learns that they receive presents not because they've been good but because people regard them; I was going to say love instead of regard but that's not always true.

Sure you can say things in cruel ways ...

They are cruel because they hurt (and it's beside the point to know whether that's a rational reaction) and you know it. When you do on purpose something to hurt someone, and unless there's some greater usefulness to it and no other way to do or put it, that's cruelty.

> Imagine you're one of the other guys using the service and you try to talk to one of those fake profiles.

Ok, not hard to imagine. I'm using the service, I message one of those fake profiles (amongst the other multiple of profiles I message). I get no response, figure she is not interested and move on (just like most other messages to profiles).

Yes I think it's cruel if they used them to play jokes. Worse yet is that I know people who are using this for financial gain. They setup fake profiles in dating sites, and respond with messages containing premium rate phone lines. They made millions, got fined in one country but the profits made elsewhere made up for that.

Umm, you're making a big assumption that the fake profiles didn't respond. I got the distinct impression from the original article that the fake profiles were kept active. Will that modify your opinion?

Article says: "My two friends operated the 50 accounts while I found the prettiest ..."

Well then, if that is the case, he still technically didn't lie, his friends did. And what isn't a friend if he won't be your wingman?

I was only clarifying the mistaken impression you had that there was no ongoing deception. Clearly to you, the presence of ongoing deception is equivalent to lack of it. Which answers my question to you. Thanks.

Lies != Deceit.

Deception is but one tool in the social engineer's kit.

If you're good you can get what you want without making any assertive statements whatsoever, just by using the right tone of voice.

> Using it to get sex is not what I consider "greater good".

Helping smart people procreate could be considered "greater good"

perhaps if they weren't morally broken. (blah blah, morals are gray, etc etc)

I cannot get the "morally broken" thing. What they did, mostly, is to distract their competition and gather information on their targets.

Keep in mind the targets are not passive ones and if they actually engaged in a relationship with those folks, it was because they wanted it. I never went to a second date with a girl I didn't like.

If you are a more interesting date and shape yourself into a better/more interesting/more exciting person because of it, where's the harm?

Research is always lying...asking questions you don't really need the answer to, at least right now. The questioner is often an agent of the researcher, so is 'lying' about wanting the answer - they are being paid to ask somebody elses question.

Not at all different from putting up fake ads in Google, and counting the number of hits.

It's called social engineering, not lying. Semantics make the hacker.

Added bonus that they have bruised egos from not getting a date with the hot guy, probably a rare occurance for an attractive woman on a dating site.

Groundhog day, anyone?

Six more weeks of datelessness!

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