"Huawei claims that Harmony OS' IPC performance is five times that of Google's Fuchsia, and three times that of QNX."
Which I find fascinating. If they were building this as a Fuchsia competitor and are forced now to push it to market we could see rapid innovation on both sides of the divide actually coming to market soon!
I also find the "smaller than Linux" claims rather strange. ANY microkernel will be smaller. Once you add those things back (at an almost insignificantly higher abstraction), I'm betting things get to be around the same size or slightly larger. I can't speak for other people, but I rather like not having to do the old driver search routine I did on Windows for every little thing.
Yes, and that rotten thing is the app ecosystem. Without apps, nobody will use your smartphone. From what I've seen, HarmonyOS tries to be compatible with Android, but knowing the difficulty Microsoft and Blackberry had with getting the Android API to work a few years ago (before the many complications that have been layered on top since), I don't expect much from it.
I think a switch of mobile OS will go down about as well as Windows Phone. Only if they port most important apps and games (phone gaming is big in China), their custom OS just won't get the popularity to get its own full app ecosystem.
even for Huawei, there will be some 3rd party apps. and most people spend almost all of their time on a small set of apps anyway. as long as the critically important apps (there are probably only a couple hundred) to most users are available AND Huawei offers some other benefits (e.g. relativeily low price for good HW), maybe an app store with millions of apps is not critical to success any more?
What is different now than when Windows Phone flopped? They had tens of thousands of phone apps (although I can't find an exact number), and it clearly wasn't enough.
People spend most of their time on the very small number of big name social media apps, some games, and email, camera and texting apps. ok, so maybe it's more like 1000 apps. IDK. but, if those are all present at the launch of the Huawei store, then a lot of users will say "good enough for me." Huawei could do the market research, figure out what those apps are, and then incentivize those app devs to port to Huawei.
context: it sounds like there's a modular Linux kernel in it too to support running existing Android/Linux apps.
And I am pretty sure ALL Apps and Games in China will be ported to HarmonyOS.
Huawei makes up about a third of the Chinese smart phone market according to counterpoint.com. If Huawei were to drop Android, that would be a huge win for Vivo, Oppo and Xiaomi, not necessarily a huge loss for Android.
Fro my perspective as a Chinese living in bay area. So far Huawei largely benefited more than being harmed. For one thing, it firmly established itself as the beacon of Chinese tech superiority over other domestic competitor, and gains unmeasurable good will from the Chinese people. This obvious helps propell their possible dominance of the smartphone market, and helps with their Cloud business as well.
This is also why BAT and other tech companies are largely indifference to Huawei's situation. On the one hand, it's sensitive. On the other hand, they are in situation where might be forced to play cooperatively to Huawei's own benefits.
Developer Developer Developer ...
Aka. ecosystem ...
They are at it for a long time already.
Minix runs on a large amount of Intel CPUs.
Both Windows and macOS derived OSes, even though they aren't proper micro-kernels, have been slowly migrating stuff over to user space and increasing the sandboxing surface area.
Given the new DriverKit, Apple's long term roadmap is to remove all driver APIs and replace them by user space ones. As stated at WWDC, when DriverKit will get feature X, the corresponding feature at kernel level gets automatically deprecated and will be removed in the following version. Until after a couple of macOS releases there won't be anything left to migrate over to DriverKit.
One of the results of Project Treble was to introduce a new userspace layer for drivers, since Android 8, all new drivers are required to be userspace drivers. Only legacy drivers are allowed as classical Linux drivers.
So yeah, they are still a thing.
As for freedom, that is the outcome of the anti-GPL movement, and push for BSD like licenses.
We make fools of ourselves trying to guess what chocolate factory is doing.
So, yeah, microkernels are kind of still a thing.
I do not know of their design, but I know some helenos devs are involved, so it's sure to be a proper microkernel multiserver system.
seL4 is just the kernel. Linux can have software with a range of licenses in userspace, so can seL4.
A system based on seL4 would be built as a bunch of services running under seL4, rather than by modifying seL4.
There seems to be quite few substantial announcements there. Amongst other a new CPU with a redesigned pipeline.
This immediately made me wonder if I have ever seen "without offering any actual proofs" added as a qualifier to any of the press statements of Apple, Microsoft or Google.
Don't get me wrong, that kind of skepticism is good. It just feels naive and tribal to limit it to the Chinese companies.
Second Largest smartphone manufacturer.
Largest supplier of network equipment.
6-7 largest tech company in the world.
170k employees in 170 countries.
100+ billion yearly revenue.
They are not even allowed to do business in USA. Arguably the most profitable market in the world.
The US government and judicial system routinely interfere to give advantages and sometimes outright eliminate competitors to American companies.
A very good example is the way the acquisition of Alstom by GE was delivered.
Lets remove Huawei with Uber.
Uber accused of espionage, bribery and hacking by former employee:
"I am an Uber employee and I support the drivers’ strikes.":
We can't expect media to be entirely neutral. Both sides will tend to focus almost exclusively on their own achievements and the other's failures and mistakes in order to maintain the balance. It may be a good idea to read both sides and then "average out".
I would go a little further, even the use of the verb "to claim" is in itself a little diminutive, had it been one of the big US companies their CEO's would have probably "said", "stated" or "announced" or "affirmed" (and not "claimed").
Huawei have yet to prove themselves in this space.
Do you think that happened by mere chance, or is there another reason you inherently deny their success?
Edit: In general it’s quite fascinating how backwards the US smartphone technology scene is. I only recently became aware of this being involved in thst bubble myself. The US is middle of the pack at best when it comes to mobile networks, it’s way behind when it comes to phone hardware. The one area where it leads is software and services, but it will be interesting if the US can maintain the lead here, especially since basically all the American software companies are trying to emulate WeChat.
Yeah, about that: https://www.huawei.com/en/press-events/annual-report/2018
=> Net profit 59,345 CNY Million 25.1%
I believe that's about $8bn. And the 25.1% at the end is the increase from last year.
You mean #1, right? :-) https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/2019-...
(Scroll down for a picture)
Take it differently : imagine microsoft announced a brand new mobile OS. Would it say it's "of course more powerful and secure than android and iOs", period ? Could you imagine that they wouldn't get flared up ?
Edit: To close04: No one, but you ever talked about Cisco.
Anyway, I think you moved the goal posts. You were implying they should not be included in the group to be sceptical about, rather than any kind of scale.
This being said my main reason for being skeptic about HarmonyOS is that it's a v1.0. And just like almost all other v1.0s it has a lot to prove and improve.
Also, Apple doesn't make these claims. They compare to their own previous generations when they want to make a comparison. They rarely mention competitors.
I really don't think your concern is warranted in this case.
You can't stop detect small smuggling but a periodic pull of software updates looks vastly different from uploads of all your photos, just for example.
We know that Google has a very close relationship to the US government w.r.t surveillance.
Apple claims to be "fighting" it, whether as PR or genuine.
Huawei on the other hand is deeply intertwined with the Chinese government and their policies should give an indication that backdoors and total surveillance will be passed into the OS.
I don't see this OS succeeding beyond China though. US companies still dominate the app market outside China. No WhatsApp = no thanks; to the majority of the developing world.
I wouldn't be so sure. Obviously it would be an uphill battle for the OS to compete in the US or Europe, but anywhere that doesn't have clear smartphone dominance yet (ie most of India or Africa) is fair game. Huawei already has a strong foothold in both of those places, and the Chinese government is not opposed to strong-arming them into sticking with Huawei infrastructure.
See also https://www.ft.com/content/282f8ca0-3be6-11e9-b72b-2c7f526ca...
> Harmony OS is not compatible with Android apps out-of-the-box, confirms Richard Yu, CEO of Huawei Consumer Business Group. That means you won’t be able to merely side-load any Android app of your choosing. In a press conference, Mr. Yu says that app developers will have to make “small changes” to their apps in order to compile them to run on Harmony OS. He states that it is “very easy” to transfer Android apps to Harmony OS.
It better be open source at least if it wants to have any chance of being used outside China though, and not just “open” source.
Not sure what that means, but open source is pretty much irrelevant in this market, for one because we already have Android and it doesn't help much.
If you want to fork Android, it's easy and except for Google's proprietary services, like the notifications, you get compatibility with the entire Android ecosystem out of the box.
So why is there no successful fork around, except for Amazon's, which is very niche and doesn't count?
Open source is defined by the freedom to fork. However if the market forces are such that forking isn't feasible, then the open source nature is irrelevant.
Going back to your usage of quotes in "open" source, if that's what you meant, well, unfortunately Huawei is not the FSF.
There are hundreds, you just have to install them yourself.
Where is the source?
"Harmony OS will not allow for root access, which Huawei says is a security risk on Android and other Linux-based operating systems. Finally, Huawei will be open-sourcing Harmony OS in the future."
Two non-colluding competitors are better than a monopoly;
three better than two.
Hypothesis: Anything more than a 33% market capture by a producer is bad for consumers eventually.
And then there is 和諧 = 河蟹, which is an atonal homophonic euphemism for the euphemism.
> The 2004 Chinese Communist Party announcement of the goal of constructing a "harmonious society" has been cited by the government of China as the reason for Internet censorship. As a result, Chinese netizens began to use the word "harmonious/harmonize/harmonization" (和谐) as a euphemism for censorship when the word for censorship itself was censored, particularly on BBSs. Following this, the word "harmonious" itself was censored, at which point Chinese netizens began to use the word for "river crab", a near homophone for "harmonious". In a further complication of meaning, sometimes aquatic product (Chinese: 水产) is used in place of "river crab".
It's Chinese name is from Chinese myth. Is it in any way rebellious? No I don't think so. Patriotism made Huawei and is making them dough.
It's most likely their engineers' limited creative idea.
This is not just used to evade censorship, but also humorously. E.g. returnees from overseas 海归 (hǎiguī) are frequently called sea turtles 海龟 (hǎiguī). In that case, even the tones match.
By the way, I’m not a linguist and I just completely made up that usage of “atonal homophone”. Could an actual linguist chime in and tell us what’s the correct way to describe a “homophone” that doesn’t match in tone, in the context of a tonal language like Chinese?
Apple, Amazon, MSFT and Google.
Are you confusing the Chinese company with the Chinese government?
Are you comfortables with USA government staging illegal Iraqi war (one of many), that resulted in close to a million death (at least)? With direct complicit help from many USA based companies?
What exactly are we comparing here, or are we cherry-picking ignorance?
Worse yet that bedroom webcam from Amazon. Idek who approved that.
edit:typos and formatting..
Yep, yep, private firms in the west are harvesting our data and using it in not-so-great ways. Same with our security agencies. But... imperfect though they may be, we do have many tools with which to hold them accountable and affect change, even if the odds might be stacked against us most of the time.
Not to mention, we've seen how bad western companies tend to be at securing data (e.g. Equifax) - its not going to be any better in China or elsewhere.
- you're not in or near China
- you are not a Chinese national or a relative of one
- you are not operating in international human rights law
Then arguably the Chinese government has less power over you than the US one, or indeed Google.
- Do people not think the US is a democracy? Why? Russiagate?
- Do people think the US generally murders you for protesting?
- Do people think that Tiananmen Square didn't happen?
- Implying that being US-centric by default is okay
- Implying that the US (police) does not arbitrarily murder people for doing things they do not like (including protesting)
Those are two things that stood out to me as surprising points of view.
I'm not one of you.
Glad to know as long as its not one of you its all OK. As if the rest of the world doesn't know it.
Chinese Government does terrible things to its own people, but doesn't do terrible things to the rest of the world.
Pick your poison.
I'm pretty sure I can hear people laughing, as they are reading that. However, it really is true.
Can Snowden speak openly about NSA hacking?
In China there are some checks and balances, but they are just ineffective and often ignored too. In the USA there are stronger due processes, but there are also more subtle ways to abuse them.
There is a difference, but it’s not really as material as it sounds.
When was the last time it happened, if ever?
Or take a look at the spotlight in the US being shined on immigration and the treatment of asylum seekers, today. Imagine a version of events where there is no such spotlight. That fight is still ongoing, and the outcome is uncertain... but would their situation be better or worse?
The US is also engaged in many, many humanitarian efforts all around the world - that is in part because these efforts are supported by the people.
China has never in the history of its existence, bombed the shit out of other countries, killing millions in the guise of freedom. Overthrew legitimately elected government, and supplied weapons to create conflict. Never.
What are the Chinese going to do with my personal conversations? Apart from use it for marketing, for which there are already much easier ways of collecting data.
I'm far more worried about MY government collecting data and being in a position to make real use of it. Western corporations are more likely to play ball with western governments.
Wow, really? A microkernel with a lot less code then a macrokernel? I'm amazed!
Seriously, though, this is the writing of a clueless reporter with no editing. Obviously, that executive was simply _explanining_ that the microkernel is small.
Other than that - it would be nice if HarmonyOS were to become a properly FOSS OS which can be relatively easily installed on phones with Android (Huawey or otherwise).
According to wikipedia, 洪門(Hongmen) is the alternative name for Tiandihui(天地會), an illegal society in Hong Kong, which sounds similar to Hongmeng.
So, if I have it right:
Originally Huawei called their OS 'Hongmeng'. But that sounds like 'Hongmen' which is an alternative name used (but not exclusively) for the outlawed Tiandihui crime syndicate.
something close to that.
Neither are especially auspicious, it seems! But perhaps the first one was intended as "oh hai plz do not use unfinished OS".
No-one in the west knows about black societies and no-one ever heard that word. I think this is about having an 'international' name that does not sound too foreign/Chinese and that is not opened to misinformation campaigns.
Don't know where you're going with this.
I myself could not have imagined character 貓 being censored because of another "Mao"
Stating that this is not for smartphones just days ago, now they decided fuck it why not?
Check out this Google Search: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&channel=tro...
Pages upon pages parroting the Open Source claim, bot not a single line of code in sight.
Ma issue here is with these news outlets parroting the Open Source claims. Your stuff isn't Open Source until the sources are open.
/usr1/compiler_cpu/code/current/build/hcc_arm64le_ark/../../open_source/hcc_arm64le_build_src/gcc-7.3.0/configure --build=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu --host=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu --target=aarch64-linux-gnu --with-arch=armv8-a --prefix=/usr1/compiler_cpu/code/current/build/hcc_arm64le_ark/arm64le_build_dir/gcc-ark-7.3.0-x86_64_aarch64-linux-gnu --disable-multilib --disable-libmudflap --enable-nls --disable-sjlj-exceptions --enable-gnu-unique-object --enable-linker-build-id --enable-shared --with-arch=armv8-a --with-gnu-as --with-gnu-ld --disable-libstdcxx-pch --enable-libstdcxx-time=yes --enable-lto --enable-c99 --enable-clocale=gnu --enable-multiarch --enable-gnu-indirect-function --enable-checking=release --enable-threads=posix --enable-plugin --enable-long-long --with-pkgversion='Compiler CPU V200R005C00SPC030B003' --enable-languages=c,c++,fortran,lto --with-headers=/usr1/compiler_cpu/code/current/build/hcc_arm64le_ark/arm64le_build_dir/gcc-ark-7.3.0-x86_64_aarch64-linux-gnu/sysroot/usr/include --with-sysroot=/usr1/compiler_cpu/code/current/build/hcc_arm64le_ark/arm64le_build_dir/gcc-ark-7.3.0-x86_64_aarch64-linux-gnu/sysroot --with-build-sysroot=/usr1/compiler_cpu/code/current/build/hcc_arm64le_ark/arm64le_build_dir/gcc-ark-7.3.0-x86_64_aarch64-linux-gnu/sysroot --with-gmp=/usr1/compiler_cpu/code/current/build/hcc_arm64le_ark/arm64le_build_dir/gcc-ark-7.3.0-x86_64_aarch64-linux-gnu --with-mpfr=/usr1/compiler_cpu/code/current/build/hcc_arm64le_ark/arm64le_build_dir/gcc-ark-7.3.0-x86_64_aarch64-linux-gnu --with-mpc=/usr1/compiler_cpu/code/current/build/hcc_arm64le_ark/arm64le_build_dir/gcc-ark-7.3.0-x86_64_aarch64-linux-gnu --with-isl=/usr1/compiler_cpu/code/current/build/hcc_arm64le_ark/arm64le_build_dir/gcc-ark-7.3.0-x86_64_aarch64-linux-gnu --libdir=/usr1/compiler_cpu/code/current/build/hcc_arm64le_ark/arm64le_build_dir/gcc-ark-7.3.0-x86_64_aarch64-linux-gnu/lib64 --disable-bootstrap --enable-fix-cortex-a53-835769 --enable-fix-cortex-a53-843419 --with-system-zlib
Nothing out of the ordinary at first glance. The tarball has your usual compiler stuff (binutils, gold) and a standard linux sysroot with glibc.
Whatever "ARK" is, I don't see it.
I mean, the current compilers from Arm and AMD are literally just clang forks… why would anyone reinvent the wheel when you can just tune clang :)
HarmonyOS will end up in the same boat. Devs won't write apps for HarmonyOS because it wouldn't have users and users wouldn't buy Huawei because it doesn't have apps. It's a chicken and egg problem which is really hard to solve.
I been watch related news since the first broke out, but I noticed all the news was just like "OakOS will be a better OS", "Hongmeng OS will be the Android killer", " HarmonyOS will be an alternative OS that can run on anything".
"Will be" is a very empty word, and I want to see the real info.
Most likely it is based on the work they have been showing there the last couple of years.
Google's grip on Android is via Google Play. Replace Play with your own store, replace Google's proprietary stuff (email, maps, notifications) and you've got a ready to use fork.
It's really not that complicated for a big company.
All smartphone vendors could do it, except none of them have the capacity to recreate Google's ecosystem that's being controlled via Play. It's why Windows Phone was a complete failure.
Think about that for a second. If Microsoft couldn't bootstrap an app ecosystem, most companies don't have any chance.
And I'm sure Huawei could, but will it take off outside of China? I doubt it.
It is almost guarantee that backdoor will be there.
If you want not to be hacked, use a dumbphone and take the battery and SIM out and bin it after use.
One has more influence over my life, the other is China.
The original article on Tech Crunch has 5 comments and 80% of them are prejudiced against China with some slipping into racist territory.
So I would say that Hackernews lifts significantly out of the general cesspool that is internet comments.
If Harmony OS takes over then I doubt the finer points of the documentation will necessarily be in English.
I know there are many strong opinions on everything to do with China, but if English is no longer the lingua-franca in tech then I will be blaming the Trump regime and the three letter agencies for messing it up.
Honestly English being THE international language is certainly a reflection of the power of English speaking nations. It's no wonder China fancy having that.
No documentation, comments written in native language and even identifiers are not so uncommon across many corporations.
Harmony OS is a general purpose OS, I doubt that if I was trying to get the server version of it working that the finer points of the settings would be documented in English. On-going development might not be in English.
The commands used in programming languages are in English. 'strpos' might not be an English Word but it is still English. There isn't a Spanish/Russian/French or other language version of 'strpos'. Same with HTML. 'body' is always 'body' whatever the language the content of the page is.
I don't get your point.
Taken as absolute this is untrue:
The thing is entirely in French (SI ALORS SINON, POUR TOUT, TANT QUE...) with English later tacked on, and a technical crapfest (I'd rather code in INTERCAL), but it does exist and is widely used around here (and by my own admission, produces working - if buggy - software that solves real life problems for people).
Combined with OS, software, and resources (http://sdz.tdct.org) set to French all around, a lot of the French dev community lives in a secluded language bubble entirely outside the thriving world you and I experience. Even if using non-French keywords, they could just as well be replaced with 'qux', 'frobnicate', or ':roller_coaster:'. To most of them, they're just tokens learned by rote. The overall quality of this community is terrible. At some point some contractor of a customer was hell-bent on explaining me that HTTP redirections were happening server-side (through pixie dust), therefore it was safe to place plaintext auth credentials in the query string.
This creates a conundrum: any English content you poke at them is met with great pushback and distrust (mostly from fear of judgement and fear of the unknown), while the typical English-speaking developer will feed from English resources and produce in English resources. This in turn means that practically no French resource is produced (actually untrue, there has been and still is, but they lag behind a lot and usually don't survive long), further widening the gap.
PS: I may sound adversarial but that's really not the case, it's more than I'm appalled. I tried to break the bubble by producing some French content and help people but the pushback, inertia, and status-quo is incredibly powerful.