Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

If one chooses to be extremely cynical, this is exactly the story Apple would want to tell shareholders in the wake of Ive's departure: Everything is fine, Ive was already detached from the company's recent successes, Eurasia has always been at war with Eastasia. Nothing to be worried about.

Dialing that back a few notches, I genuinely hope that Ive's departure means Apple is considering a new approach for the design of their products. Years of product releases with crummy butterfly keyboards, nixed headphone jacks and missing magSafe have left me with no desire to purchase my next laptop from Apple. Maybe once the current pipeline drains we can look forward to Mac laptops that gain useful features and don't fall apart in months.

Maybe. I'm not holding my breath.

> Dialing that back a few notches, I genuinely hope that Ive's departure means Apple is considering a new approach for the design of their products

I'm more worried that without a chief of design with a strong will and veto power, the next generation of designers will just cargo cult Ive and we'll get products with all the downsides and no upsides. If it's true he's has been absent maybe that's what we've already been seeing?

I have a feeling that Ive went off the deep end with his obsession with thinness and it reached a point with the MBP keyboards where Apple couldn't turn a blind eye anymore. Similar to Scott Forstall being forced out over the Apple Maps disaster.

If there's one thing more important to Apple than Ive, it's the Apple brand and nothing says "premium" like adding a product to a repair program on the day it comes out. I suspect that the knives were out for Ive after that humiliation.

Would Apple fire Ive over a MacBook issue? That's not where the money is by any means, is it? As long as the iPhone is doing well, business is good at Apple.

I don’t blame Ive/Apple too much for the butterfly keyboard issues, at least not per se. It’s hard to predict how a design will hold up after multiple years of use, and the failure rate isn't at world-on-fire levels.

However, I absolutely fault Apple for sticking with this keyboard after so many years. I know hardware designs are planned well in advance, but the 12-inch Macbook came out in early 2015. How did they look at the failure rate of that model and decide “yep, we should definitely release a Macbook Pro with this type of keyboard.” And then, why have they stuck with that design for four years and counting?

If Apple didn't or doesn't have anything else ready... well, first of all, why did they not have an alternative design ready, especially when they also ran into this problem with the Macbook Pro? But, secondly, Apple could just update the guts of the 2015 MBP, which is what everyone wants them to do anyway.

I realize it's misguided to assign feelings to entire corporations, but... Apple just strikes me as so needlessly stubborn sometimes. As if we consumers are small children, and Apple can't go back to the old keyboard lest we be rewarded for whining.

> It’s really hard to predict how a design will hold up after multiple years of use

It's really not - predicting lifetime expectancy and failure rates is a discipline of industrial engineering. That is why it's possible to estimate the number of open/close cycles of hinges is possible to estimate with a great degree of accuracy. A company has to master art this for selfish reasons - so that they can minimize repair costs during the warranty period

Sure, but how do you know if your tests match real-world use?

I'm not an engineer, so you may well know much more about this, but it seems reasonable to me that real-world people, or some percentage of real-world people, aren't going to hit your keys in the exact way you tested for. If the effects don't appear for years out, what type of user test can you design to account for that?

> Sure, but how do you know if your tests match real-world use?

As a product category, laptops have existed for close to 40 years, and Apple has been a successful and high end participant in that category for close to thirty. If they can't produce a reasonable keyboard reliability test or lack the willingness to do so, then they have other problems that are vastly more concerning than anything about a couple specific computer models.

But aren't the problems being caused by dirt particles? That's not the same kind of thing as cycle life. I can imagine them originally overlooking the need to test for, and indeed design for, dirt rejection. And now I think the extreme thinness of the keyboard has left them no room to fix the problem.

Someone claiming to be an ex-AASP technician made a detailed reddit post arguing against dust as the source of the breakage. I as a layperson found their argument very convincing. https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/bjtyaw/macbook_pro_k...

They first introduced this keyboard in April 2015 on the new 12" and first added it to the MacBook Pro in October 2016. So they had 18 months to notice and resolve the issues.

From everything I understand, the design cycles for most Apple products run 18+ months, and given that the late 2016 MBPs were the first ones with the Touch Bar (sigh), the chances are it had an even longer design-to-ship cycle. By the time reports of keyboard failures were coming in around late 2015, the MBP design was almost certainly set in stone. Also, I suspect Apple spent a more than a year after that genuinely believing they could just tweak the keyboard to resolve the problems.

The 2016 MBP's may have been designed, but Apple did not need to ship them.

More importantly, Apple did not need to also ship the 2017 MPB, the 2018 MBP(s), or the 2018 MBA. If they didn't have any alternate designs in the pipeline (why is that?), they should have reverted back to the 2015 design, with new parts.

Maybe? I don't think you're wrong, but I think all of those have reasonably easy explanations if you assume that Apple genuinely believed they had a good design that just needed some tweaking to correct, and I think they genuinely believed that. There weren't new designs in the pipeline that used fundamentally different keyboards. There weren't designs in the pipeline that went back on "all you need is USB-C." (I wouldn't be at all surprised if they stick with that, actually; it's conceivable that the 16" MBP that's rumored as their next release will add back an SD slot, but I'd be a little surprised if it adds back a USB-A port. I also expect it to continue to have a Touch Bar, although it may add back a physical escape key.)

> if you assume that Apple genuinely believed they had a good design that just needed some tweaking to correct.

Well, that's the point where I'd call Apple's judgement into question. They should have put the breaks on new releases with the keyboard until they had a clearer picture of what was going on.

They also have to be blamed for making products so difficult to repair.

If they are truly concerned with environment issues, they should compromise thinness a tiny bit for better repair-ability.

One of my last MacBooks, the first aluminium unibody one, had a beautiful latch that gave access to the battery and disk without any tools.

The rest of the machine was easy to get access to via 3 screws. Everything was neatly arranged. Whereas these days, it's a glued mess.

Very real environmental issues aside, I'd question how many consumers ever actually repair their laptops. If it's not many, then you're making everyone's computer thicker to benefit a few.

The environmental angle, then, just comes down to whether Apple can recycle parts in as eco-friendly a way as they claim.

I'm personally willing to give up repairability for a thin laptop. I'm far less willing to give up actual usability—I want a good keyboard, and I want compatibility with the most common types of thumb drives in active use today.

>Very real environmental issues aside, I'd question how many consumers ever actually repair their laptops.

Actual consumers? Very few. But a repairable machine retains much greater tradein/resale value reducing the chances it heads straight for the landfill. Witness the mighty 2012—2015 MacBook Pro and the resale value it commands to this day.

It's quite typical to replace batteries. And this machine solved that problem really well. Or it made it trivial to run on A/C, without battery.

Furthermore, having easy access to components means the effective lifetime of hardware is much longer. You can repair things when it is no longer economical to do so at an Apple Store.

I wish some laws were passed forcing manufacturers to display a repairability score, similar to the one that already exists for energy usage.

>Furthermore, having easy access to components means the effective lifetime of hardware is much longer. You can repair things when it is no longer economical to do so at an Apple Store.

And now you know why Apple dropped those features.

At the least it used to be very common for consumers to replace their own battery, an option that now has an unreasonable process for most consumers.

> Especially when they also ran into this problem with the Macbook Pro

*Mac Pro, not Macbook Pro. Sorry.

But how well the iPhone does depends a lot on Apple's premium brand image. They better not jeopardize that by selling any kind of rotten fruit under the same brand.

In my view, leaving that keyboard issue unresolved for years has been a terrible mistake.

It's his job to supervise the design of all major products.

If he can screw up the MacBook then he is not doing his job effectively and he could potentially screw up the iPhone too.

"Fire" might be the wrong word with someone as Ive, but it might have pushed a decision which was long in the coming, according to the article. If Ive had been already unhappy, any disputes about the keyboard and possibly returning to the previous designs might cause him to finally cut the ties into Apple. Or, it might have made Tim Cook to demand a level of involvement of Ive, what Ive is no longer willing to have.

Haha there's been quite a few Apple products that have failed out of the gate. Remember, they released an iPhone that couldn't make calls if you held it wrong and that was when Steve Jobs was still alive. Or what about the Power Mac Cube?

I really wish I could restore functionality to a MBP by changing the way I hold it, but alas, the situation seems far worse than even antenna-gate.

They didn't know about those at the time of release; they were mistakes. The recent MacBook Pro got an extended repair program as it was released. Which could be either a way to assure customers, or a recognition of the fact that the kb was still too delicate and they had no choice but to put it out anyway.

I own a Cube, it’s 18 years old and still runs. The problem with the Cube was that it cost too much - it was basically a low-end PowerMac at a high-end PowerMac price. Turns out there wasn’t a market for it.

Still the best looking computer ever made in my opinion.

There is also the notch, which is easy to ignore but it feels like a compromise too far, and the camera bump which has somehow survived since the 6.

Did he actually take part in the engineering?

Successful industrial design must necessarily be engineer-able or its just wishful thinking, no?

Do you consider Ive's later designs as 'successful'?

I don't know as I don't use apple but I heard of lot of grumbling off of those that do.

I think Jony Ive lifted an entire industry and perhaps a generation to “good design” (and brought a lot more attention to Dieter Rams[0][1][2]). That we’re here talking about it (for the 3rd(?) time on HN front page) is a testament to that. That said, I think humans got lost in the process, at least occasionally, but not just recently. I don’t recall which models, but sometime the MacBooks adopted really sharp edges on the bottom slab - I found it uncomfortable to sit at (did my piano teacher have input, as a final “keep your wrists up!” order?). Or the orientationally challenged hockey-puck mouse[3]... Compare with the (not problem-free, mind) Thinkpad, which may seem more designed and exciting when you see it’s got a singular inspiration that they seem to have honoured for years[4] (how brave is that, to not change?).

I wonder if Apple didn’t feel self-imposed pressure to keep asserting its design dominance, and therefore look for ways to change. We’re all just armchair quarterbacks here though. in the end I think Jony Ive did more good than harm.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Rams

[1] https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/apple-design-doesnt-fall-fa...

[2] https://youtu.be/YdVG4LcoY4Y

[3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse

[4] http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/the-japanese-essence-in-think...

The sharp edges are a crystal clear example of Ive's pursuit of form over function. It's insane to have sharp edges that users may touch with their wrists, especially the sharp points on each side of the cutout below the trackpad. Ever since Macbooks had that "feature" I've been rounding off the edges with fine sandpaper and then polishing them. It's a wonderful improvement.

Are they really "Sharp"? They don't cut me or hurt in anyway. Or is that the new 2016+ MBP? I am still on the best 2015 MBP at the moment.

My wrists hurt badly when I was using the 2015 MBP. I was probably "holding it wrong", but still, putting a sharp edge there...

I cut myself on my iMac just this morning while trying to reposition it on my desk...

Thanks for #4, that was a great read. I'm still on my 2012 X1 Carbon and it's surprising how not dated it looks.

I'll replace it with another when it breaks, but hoping it'll last until AMD gets properly into the laptop game.

Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

To me, pretty much any modern Thinkpad[0] looks like 90s laptops[1] made out of crappy, flexing plastic whereas something as sleek as a MacBook Air[2] from the same year looks positively futuristic.

If (when?) I jump ship I'll either get an XPS 13 or a T4XXs, and the only reason I'm undecided is because of Thinkpads their design, especially the gratuitous logo-ing.

[0] https://cnet3.cbsistatic.com/img/rR1UdxX-DdlR2hDEoq3jjC30Nho...

[1] https://i.ibb.co/Krb07X4/8-C061277-2-A27-4204-BFAE-03-CFDEFD...

[2] https://tweakers.net/i/4R_rvojQOTIskfm9fHVoeguxcPE=/1280x/fi...

So... form over function?

In my field (data analytics), a Mac indicates the user is in sales :-)

To some degree? Certainly.

Although there is research that people perform measurably better on attractive gear. Aside from that, I believe around a third of all GitHub commits originate from macOS. Perhaps form and function often go hand in hand :)

> Although there is research that people perform measurably better on attractive gear

I've an interest in ergonomics, if you could ref this study I'd be very interested.




are good starting points. The essence is that people rate appealing devices as better performing, even if they factually work identical. Due to that halo effect they will perform on them better. The second source points out that if you measure something like 'type these 100 words' there will be no factual performance difference between appealing and unappealing devices, but on a higher level it does lead to things like more creative thinking.

My own guess would be pretty much what the studies say: people enjoy using appealing devices more, which leads to aggregate benefits: less stress which leads to more creative thinking, more use of the device, the device is better maintained, etc.

That's new! And interesting. Thanks.

Industrial design includes materials science and process design as well as aesthetics.

In fact the aesthetics are the easy part. Ive has always talked about materials and processes in interviews and videos, so it's unlikely his sole contribution has been doodling rounded rectangles on napkins.

The question is the extent to which Apple's recent missteps are his fault.

Jobs seems to have had veto power over bad or self-indulgent design. Cook isn't aesthetically sophisticated enough to do that with any flair.

That leaves complicated collective politics in charge of the design process. Promoting Ive out of the company may or may not improve that - time will tell.

I bought plenty of Apple hardware with fundamental thermal issues or other problems caused by overreaching design during Jobs' reign, so I'm not sure how much he exercised this veto.

Again, purely from the thinness issue, ( and not the keyboard )

The current 2016 MBP design were likely done in 2014/2015, with Intel's roadmap pointing to 10nm in 2016 and 7nm in 2019. Intel over promised on 10nm super low power capability ( Well may be that is still true, but no one know it couldn't yield ), and you would naturally expect 7nm with EUV to be better.

The 2016 MBP design had 45W TDP for CPU in mind, Imagine the 2016 MBP came out with 10nm, and updated with 7nm this year. That is easily an 8 Core CPU with much better IPC. Even the 10nm Icelake offered 20% IPC improvement, who knows what Intel Promised for 7nm.

So I don't think it really was an overreaching issue. Intel had a 3 years delay in delivery, and now looking likely at 4 years as 45W 10nm wont come until 2020.

Ives has led the entire design process for Apple's device range, at least until the relatively recent past. Like you I'm not sure to what degree Apple's problems as a whole are attributable to him (certainly not everything of course), but as a designer of his calibre he should be able to make the design decisions that produce a better UX in the product, with or without Jobs. It's why he earns the big bucks.

With that in mind, I'd say the issues in Apple's recent range (of a design nature) can be attributed to him. He's taken minimalism past its extreme in recent years, getting rid of things that are part of the device's essential nature in favour of aesthetics and creating something that has great UI but terrible UX.

There are a couple of failures (trashcan mac for example, Macbook Pro butterfly keyboard to a degree) but it is hard to argue that Apple's product designs over the last decade haven't been a massive success in general.

Sure you can point out gripes (the touch bar, lack of ports, no headphone jack etc.) but in almost every product category there are at most a couple other products which can compete in terms of build quality, aesthetics, and functionality. And people have certainly bought a lot of units of most of these products, so it's hard to classify them as "failures" by any objective metric.

If anything I think Apple has such a strong reputation for having categorically the "best designs" that they can't help falling short of expectations, and there's a whole category of journalism dedicated to catastrophizing every perceived flaw.

In other words they're not perfect but they're undeny

> without a chief of design with a strong will and veto power

I feel like 'recently' their design has had too much 'strong will', and not enough veto power where it matters.

to me the butterfly keyboard is an example of operations overruling design. follow me, design came out with this new keyboard to fit their requirements and manufacturing of the final product had some issues. so one would expect design to iterate and adapt looking for a new means to accomplish their original goals but operations, concerned about the dollar, will stick with the current format to save money. that focus on profit is probably the reason for the iMac languishing on its seven year old chassis and the fact Apple will keep production in China even after all the recent abuses of human rights to include pressure on Hong Kong. The profit is more important than the product

now if I can find fault with the design side it is in the Mac Pro. Both models seemed to have been created for Apple, if not Ive, instead of the customers who had been using the Mac Pro platform for a decade plus. Just from the presentations of both its all form over function, look at how cool we are in making this. Sadly the new one is so over priced it left the original market still without a valid replacement for even the 2013 model.

Given that the HQ was supposedly Ive perhaps Apple design can be summarized as audacious to the point of pretentiousness. If that has got to go to focus back on what people want then so be it.

What have been the upsides recently?

If it works, the butterfly keyboard is a very good keyboard. For a laptop. It boils down all the nerd arguments about why the IBM model M is still the best keyboard in the world (tactile and overall feedback) and brings it to the modern era. Combined with the restriction of mobile devices. Perfect. If it would not break down so easily.

> If it works, the butterfly keyboard is a very good keyboard. For a laptop.

I totally disagree. The earlier Macbook keyboards were far nicer to type on, in my opinion.

Perhaps you can't find a better flatter keyboard, but from a pure typing perspective, I think it's not good at all.

I’m in the minority but for me the butterfly keyboard is the best of all keyboards. Personally I want to have tactile feedback but also as little pressing effort as possible. The keyboard does both. Somehow my back and arm just don’t tire as much.

I have a 2017 MBP for work and a 2015 personal MBP. I love good laptop keyboards, my fingers tire out using heavy mechanical keyboards with long travel. I loved my 2015 keyboard. Until I got the 2017. Now the 2015 feels like mush, like I'm typing on silicone. The 2017 is nice a clicky and satisfying while still keeping the shallow travel.

I haven't personally encountered any issues of the keys sticking though I know people who have. That's a real and serious problem, although it sounds like Apple may have figured it out in later models. But personally I love the feel of the clicky short-travel 2017 keyboard. About the only thing I don't like is the arrow keys, I miss the cutouts above the left/right arrow keys to help find them easier.

It's greeat, but the ee keye in my keyboard geets stuck fairly consistently on mine afteer less than a yeaer.

I don't think you are in minority. I work with many apple users and noone actually likes pre-tb keyboards more if they worked on new ones. I think it's just vocal minority at work here.

I hate it when I sit in the train and people are using mechanical keyboards. The noisy ones are always MBPs. They get a thin device, I get the noise.

(Obviously, I'd hate this in an office space as well.)

I also don't get the point that MBPs need to weight less or become thinner. My MBP 2015 13" and 15" are light and thin enough as it is. The sacrifice isn't worth it.

Agree. Going back to the prior keyboards feels like typing on mush. There is an adjustment period though where constantly swapping back and forth could be uncomfortable.

I’m with you. I’ve used Apple laptops for ages (and ThinkPads before that) and prefer the newest MBP keyboards, when they’re not repeating kkeys at least.

> why the IBM model M is still the best keyboard in the world

Specifically the variants with the beam spring switch mechanism. You won't believe how much these go for on ebay:


Edit: here's a teardown of the switch mechanism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFYoh5VcZvg

And if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, check out this insanely detailed description of how the old selectric typewriters work (the beam spring was designed to replicate the feel of the selectric's wiffletree mechanism): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJITkKaO0qA&t=597s

Indeed. I think Apple's biggest risk isn't what happens when Ive leaves, it's that he left five years ago and we're seeing the results now - except with no chance of a significant correction coming as a result of Ive's departure.

> missing magSafe

You can pry from my dead hands my one cable from the monitor to the laptop and ability to charge the laptop from both sides. Not to mention that I can use chargers from anyone, not just from Apple, I can buy non-Apple charging cables, and with my Mac charger I can charge growing numbers of gadgets (so far iPad and Nintendo Switch).

Yeah, MagSafe had a nice, satisfying "click" when engages, but I find USB-C charging much more convenient.

What if I told you this isn't an either or. You can have both usb-c and magsafe charging in the same laptop.

If my laptop already had usb-c and could be charged through it, why would I want an extra, different format charging port? Why not add a micro-usb one, for three different charging ports?

I read their message as saying USB-C with MagSafe technology to prevent the cord from pulling the machine off your desk if tripped over, and not two separate ports. Basically as it exists but a modification to the cable or connector to have magnetic breakaways or something?

Could be, yeah, but I can't see how to implement that with USB's friction model of retention.

Presumably people think the magsafe connection is better. I wonder about that though. I have a magsafe mac and my cable wears out after a year or two. Do the USB-C charging cables have the same problem?

Magsafe 2 seems better than either version of Magsafe 1 (there was straight and then right-angled). I broke a ton of those Magsafe 1 chargers over the years, have yet to break a Magsafe 2 charger.

Probably, but why? When every laptop had it's own proprietary charging cable, MagSafe was the best. But I'll take standard charging cable over proprietary every time. I don't feel any need for MagSafe and I don't want MagSafe socket on my laptop (because I think that would made already slow USB-C adoption slower)

My laptop, a Surface Go, can be charged either with USB C or with the little flimsy microsoft magnetic connector. I like having both options. At home, my surface dock uses that connection so I didn't need to buy new hardware when I upgraded to the Surface Go. When travelling, I carry its own proprietary charger which charges faster than USBC. When going to coffee shops or small co-working sessions, I carry either a battery pack with USB C PD or a USB C charger that is smaller than its own proprietary one and also charges my phone. I enjoy having options and using the best for the occasion.

Because with MagSafe when someone trips on the power cord your laptop doesn’t crash to the ground.

Man, Mac users are the clumsiest beings on the World. Macs are what? Below 7% market share? And somehow 7%, based on constant whining, trips over their power cords much more than the silent 93% of the population.

You have a computer with four sockets on both sides, you can plug into each of these holes a standard (non-Apple) cable, on the other side of the cable can be a standard USB-C (non-Apple) charger or a battery pack that can charge your laptop together with your phone and your gadgets. And yet, that's much less important than the glorified party trick.

Please don't take HN threads into technical flamewars or any flamewars. We don't want those here.


Does this really need to be trolled into a Mac-PC flamewar? MagSafe was popular (and widely recognized as a good feature even by PC users) because people use laptops in crowded places, have pets and kids, etc.

Nobody is saying that USB-C doesn't have strengths but this was a feature which many people felt valuable for valid reasons. It's also annoying to lose since it'd be an easy change to fix by putting the safety release on the charger so you'd have the same protection in the most common configuration.

Flamewar? I'm Mac user. And I consider USB-C the best thing on new MacBooks. If I ever change platform, I would not consider buying laptop with proprietary charging.

I have three Mag-Safe chargers in my drawer (one broken), from my previous laptops. If they're standard (USB-C) chargers, I would use them for something. So I hope Apple will not put any non-standard "safety releases" on their chargers in the future.

I hope someone will make a cable with something similar to mag-safe (I know there's couple of kickstarters, I don't know how good these thing works) so we can finally put this story behind.

>Man, Mac users are the clumsiest beings on the World. Macs are what? Below 7% market share? And somehow 7%, based on constant whining, trips over their power cords much more than the silent 93% of the population.

Or, you know, Mac users actually use their laptops outside, and in situations where one might trip on the charger cable much more often than PC users with clunky "desktop replacement" behemoths.

Besides, one obviously cares more for a $2000+ laptop going flying off the table than for a $500 POS PC laptop.

See how both sides can play the flame game?

Which both sides? I'm typing this on the MacBook Pro. And I'm really pissed off on Apple because of half-baked touch bar, and because letter N on my first generation butterfly keyboard is starting to stutter. But USB-C power? That's the thing I'm expecting Apple to do - to drive the whole industry kicking and screaming into the new direction. Do you really think we would see Dells and Lenovos and HPs with USB-C power without MacBooks being first, without compromises like "let's include MagSafe too"?

You could have a USB-C port on the laptop but with the charger end of the cable connected by a proprietary magnetic plug.

So when travelling you could use any available charger, but when in the home or office you'd have the safety of the breakaway mag connection.

Indeed - there are USB-C charger cables with this functionality. I got one and quickly ignored it as the standard cables are so much easier.

Did you ever notice how they never used magnets in laptops before people stopped using floppy disks?

on top of that, there is a high quality data cable that comes with your computer

The charging cable that ships with the MacBook is only capable of USB2.0 speed data transfers.[0] You'll want a different cable for high speed data.

[0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208368


This was depressing to read.

Someone doing what they enjoy, but wanting to be able to do it more effectively, is depressing?

It's the unhealthy lifestyle, not brushing teeth before bed, dislocating shoulders and not having healthcare that caused my comment.

Yeah, but cheesy muffins are the best! Especially made with buttermilk.

Pretty sure this was sarcastic

During my last sideways Netflix/cheeto/mayo binge I thought – magsafe on both sides?

The new Mac Pro was the first glimmer of hope. Now I read that they are releasing updated mbp 13 without touchbar. If they start offering full powered full port mbp 13 without touchbar my optimisim will be back.

I think Apple’s problem will be that Jobs usually had a very good feeling which radical change will get accepted and which won’t. The current Apple will probably listen to customer feedback but I doubt they will be able to release game changers like iPod or iPhone.

Apple Watch has been a game changer in some respects.

I don't think anybody expected it to be as successful as it has been. And the feature set and their acquisitions e.g. Beddit gives a really interesting insight into where Apple is heading in the health sector.

> Apple Watch has been a game changer in some respects. I don't think anybody expected it to be as successful as it has been.

It has disappointed, actually, according to the very article we are commenting on: "The company sold about 10 million units in the first year, a quarter of what Apple forecast"

That was in the first year. Apple Watch has taken a while to get up to speed but is now doing really well.

You definitely can see it on more people's wrists than in the early days.

Okay, thank you, I didn't know that.

Apple Watch is the best-selling watch...

And the "Wearables, Home, and Accessories" revenue was 5.1 billion last quarter, which is bigger than iPad Revenue of 4.8 billion.

I actually think that Watch sales is a surprise on how well it is. Nobody expected it would be that good.

Apple watch is for people who already have an iPhone. It's not a game changer for a wider market it's a peripheral. a successful peripheral.

You're not wrong, but the context here is that iPhone sells over 200 million units a year. The chances of them having any other products which can even come close to matching that, is very very low.

The original iPod is a peripheral for people who already have Macs. Even later on, the iPod is a peripheral for people who already have either a Mac or a Windows PC.

My point is, peripherals can be successful and game-changing.

You're right, but I think the key here is that Mac and Windows support - essentially covering near 100% of the addressable market - made the iPod what it was.

The day watch becomes standalone and/or compatible with Android is the day it has a chance of becoming a true game changer. Until then I wouldn't even describe it as a peripheral, but just an accessory for an iPhone really.

The original iPod was a flop. cmdrtaco's infamous dismissal of it wasn't as wrong as people remember.



A decent portion of those sales are subsidized by health insurance.

Same thing with the iPhone, to be honest. It wouldn't be nearly as popular if people had to pay sticker price on the first day.

Apple Watch has some great features. Most of it's features are things I actively avoid though (ie notifications etc).

> I don't think anybody expected it to be as successful as it has been

How do you measure success? Because there is no way any comparison with the number of people who own an iPhone or any other kind of Apple device. Even in Japan where Apple has the lion share of the smartphone market I hardly see people with an Apple watch.

> Because there is no way any comparison with the number of people who own an iPhone

Apparently you measure success by "besting the single greatest consumer product success story in a generation". By this metric, virtually nothing would be considered a success.

Meanwhile, Apple became the biggest watchmaker in the world as of 2017. After only three years of producing watches, they unseated literally every other watchmaker in the world on revenue. That seems pretty damned successful to me.

Funny thing was that stories about how the Apple Watch is a flop continued well past the point when Apple lapped all of the watchmakers out there. Some bullshit stories just won't die.

I guess there would have to be one success per generation.

FWIW, I see Apple watches everywhere in the U.S. Even (especially?) on totally normal people.

Where in the US? I saw more Airpods during my 8 hour stopover in SF than I had seen in my entire life prior in Australia. It's a different world.

Loads of people wear them in Australia.

Certainly in Sydney. I notice because I think they're over priced at AU$250, and I'm surprised how many school kids have them. I would lose them in a week.

> and I'm surprised how many school kids have them.

You might also be surprised how many are knockoffs [1] which are rapidly improving in quality [2]:

[1] https://www.macworld.com/article/3311456/airpods-knockoffs-t...

[2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml3wayRMK_s

Heaps in Melbourne as well. Personally I find them daggy; if they're anything like the earphones included with the iPhone 3 they'd fall out of my ears if I just turned my head.

Samsung Buds OTOH stay in (and don't have the daggy bits hanging out).

I also have had problems with Apple's wired earphones staying in, so I was skeptical of the AirPods. But they stay in great. Turns out that most of the problem was the weight of the cord.

I know (I'm in Sydney regularly). But I reckon 1/10 people I saw walking down the street had airpods in on a Tuesday arvo in SF.

I think you mean “heaps”

In the UK they've sold well to C1s and some C2s, but not so much to the Bs and some As who are Apple's traditional market.


The amazing thing about the classic Apple designs was the way they managed to be textbook Veblen goods while also appearing to be gender and class neutral. They were aspirationally expensive, but not blingy.

That changed when gold and pink started to creep into the design vocabulary and the prices started moving up. The classic designs were more democratic. Not everyone could afford them, but they managed the neat trick of appearing to be visually inclusive rather than aggressively exclusive.

From that POV, Watch has been a design failure. It lacks the social status of the high-end I-have-money watch brands. It's neither expensive-but-neutral nor an outrageously self-indulgent statement product. The expensive straps and stainless steel variants made a pitch for the latter, but it was never convincing.

As a signifier it's visually bland and even slightly vulgar, which is why it hasn't had the same cultural impact. It's also why it works for C1/C2s but not for the ABs. Sales may be fine, but in its current form it's never going to be the covert high status product that Apple used to do so well.

Apple products, while expensive in a general consumer goods sense are not anywhere near the pricing of a typical Veblen good, they have never been particularly status driven throughout their history in either computers or phones, and their sales violate the textbook definition of a Veblen good, sales dropped substantially when prices increased.

Apple is much more in line with a premium brand driven good like Nike, or Sony.

A true Veblen good phone would cost like $20000, be gold cased and nobody you know would own one.

Vertu tried that approach with phones - didn't work out too well:


[Only ever saw them on sales at Heathrow Terminal 5 and Courchevel 1850]

Really? I live in Europe, where iPhone is hardly dominant, and I see Apple Watches everywhere.

Not just the Mac Pro, but the iMac Pro, Mac mini, and iPad Pros are all outstanding computers. (No, Apple will never make an affordable, upgradable mid-tower, but the new Mac mini plus an external GPU is close.)

I'd say keep the Touch Bar, but add an escape key.

Regardless of how you feel about Apple's design choices, recent improvements in both Bluetooth and Wi-Fi mean that it's clear to even those that can't predict the future that wired/corded connections are going to be obsolete for all but the highest bandwidth (i.e. Thunderbolt/PCI/uncompressed UHD+ display) interfaces (and, of course, power). Most peripherals used by most people will be entirely wireless. This isn't an Apple thing, this is just the way things are going in our industry.

If you want "full port", invent a time machine and travel back to the time when people accepted cables. That time is gone now.

I hope the pairing experiences we will commonly have will be much improved, because just about every time I use Bluetooth to pair anything I have to go through a struggle.

AirPods are painless in that regard, at least when used with Apple devices.

Airpods still have annoyances for me at times. Sometimes doesn't connect, sometimes connects. Sometimes won't disconnect from another device. It's a bit better than a standard bluetooth device, but still not great.

My impression of airpods is they added on demand 'connect to me' and always on device listing to the bluetooth protocol.

I think a way to solve the 'which device to connect to' conundrum is to make NFC re-association a standard thing with bluetooth devices. So instead of screwing around with software menus, you would bash your 2 devices together and have them (re)connect within 200ms.

The nintendo switch kind of gives this to you with their joycons. Slide the joycon in and it's associated & connected with that switch, no software fuckery required. It's a lot nicer than many other BT experiences for me.

Wifi on the other hand, has been fairly good since day 1.

The general direction an industry is going isn't usually the issue. Most designers can predict the general trends in an 'infinite timescale'.

The issue comes to when it's a acceptables trade-off. I think for now the wireless future is not here yet, and won't be for the next year or 18 months.

Apple didn't pull it off with it's AirPods (too pricy for wide adoption, still lag in the bluetooth stack, only 3 or 3 designs available for something that needs to fit on people's ear), I'd say they were too early to pull the plug on wired.

This argument has been made since the iMac without a floppy drive or non-USB serial port.

If they were too early, people would stop buying their devices because of the "lack" of functionality. They haven't. That means that the people who claim they're too early were wrong.

It turns out that most people who buy computers and most people who complain about the range of ports on computers are not the same size groups, and are mostly not comprised of the same people.

The pace of purchase of the laptops and iPhones slowed down though. It can be attributed to a lot of factors, but we can't make the blanket argument "it's selling more than ever so they can't be doing it wrong" anymore.

The new mac pro is a sweet piece of hardware, but you have to take the price into account. I remain unimpressed.

Pretty good value for money for pros who need what it is designed for. It's not a student computer for writing essays and browsing reddit.

This "it's not for you" eliteism that creeps in when defending this product is getting ridiculous.

I feel I very much should be in Apples target for a pro-machine considering my Windows workstation is a dual GPU 1080Ti machine (cost a fraction of an iMac Pro and outperforms it) I use for 3D rendering, animation and video editing. Yet when I point out it's terrible value I again just get told it's not for me and it's for people who edit "Marvel movies" for a living.

I mean the only real complaint you could have with their pre-Mac Pro lineup was it just didn't have any way to fill niches, everything had to be good for the 80% and not right for rest. Wouldn't it have made a lot more sense to target this product as modular enough to fill the rest of those needs instead of targetting it specifically at the highest-of-high-end blockbuster movie editors.

Indeed, the "it's not for you" argument is tiresome precisely because the people who seem most disappointed about Mac Pro pricing are the people who actually need a powerful, expandable Mac. My mom doesn't care what it costs, because she doesn't need one, but I've used Mac Pros for years, and I actually need one.

There was a time when Mac Pros were an excellent value, and you could afford one if you were a modestly successful entrepreneur. But with the new Mac Pro, Apple seems to largely ignore the needs of entrepreneurs and small studios. It appears targeted at large studios where the cost premium is a rounding error.

But contrary to popular belief, many "professionals" do consider cost when buying equipment. Being able to depreciate this stuff on your taxes doesn't suddenly make the cost irrelevant.

It's not elitism, not at least by the people who accurately describe it. It's for absolutely price-insensitive people who feel they need:

1) OSX 2) Top of the line specs

Anyone seriously buying a Mac Pro is either in the above group or just a crazed fanboy happy to pay the ludicrous premium to say they did.

I've got to admit, it has some "object appeal". I definitely would not dismiss the aesthetic aspect of it.

On the other hand one has to wonder, however, if at some point around the same specs as the "low-end" mac pro, that a server wouldn't make more sense? Can you stuff a pro graphics card into a Dell R740 and have it far enough away that the fan roar won't be an issue when editing 4K video?

I mean, there's no "making sense" here. The minute anyone invokes "value" regarding this unit, it's a failed argument on both sides. Of course the Mac Pro is overpriced as hell and there is no way to extract actual value from this device. It is also very specifically not the point of it, which means it's like arguing about the value of a Bugatti.

The Mac Pro is a luxury good and should be viewed as such. The fact that the tech community is up in arms about it because it's technically a computer is really their own fault for misclassifying the device.

I feel the same way about the Tesla semi truck. I have a pickup truck that I use to haul a trailer and it certainly didn't cost $150,000. People keep trying to tell me the Telsa semi was made for a market that sits above my own market, a market where the price makes sense, but I just can't imagine that market even exists.

Why would anyone buy a Telsa semi truck when the Ram 3500 HD costs half the price?

You are mixing up the vehicle categories. The Tesla Semi is for pulling 40 ton trailers, it is not a pickup truck. Independant from the Semi, Tesla is expected to introduce a pickup truck in a couple of months, which supposedly costs around $50k.

>You are mixing up the vehicle categories.

That was the entire point of my comment. I'm saying whywhywhywhy is confusing two different product categories just because those categories happen to overlap slightly at the high end of one category and the low end of the other.

Then your posting was pure mockery and not only necessarily recognizable as such, but also not adding anything to the discussion. If you had made a clear statement about what you disagreed with, it might have improved the discussion.

And I don't think that the posting you answered was wrong. Apple calls this machine a "Mac Pro", so any professional users should be targetted by it - they don't have any other machines for professionals who require a desktop machine. Instead, they should have called it the "Mac Hollywood", as this seems to be the target audience.

Mockery? Hardly. The real intention was to use an analogy to prove the absurdity of the comment. I’m sure plenty of Ram 3500 HD drivers consider themselves professionals yet have no need for a semi truck. Any argument for/against these machines that hinges on the definition of “professional” is inherently worthless because “professional” is such a broad spectrum.

I know plenty of professionals who use an 11” MacBook Air. Your definition of professional is not the same as everyone else’s, and it’s ridiculous to try to fit everyone else to your own mold.

Basically, stop using the argument “no REAL professional would ever...”. It’s a worthless argument.

Mockery? Hardly. The real intention was to use an analogy to prove the absurdity of the comment.

There was no absurdity in the comment you answered on. Apple pitches the machine for a general "professional" audience, especially as it is the only modular Mac offerring. But in fact they only designed (and more importantly) priced it for a very special subsection of the professional audience. So they should be more specific in their pitch and also offer a modular machine for the rest of the professional users.

And your original comment would have been more constructive, if you had tried to make your point explicitly, as you are doing now.

Your definition of professional is not the same as everyone else’s, and it’s ridiculous to try to fit everyone else to your own mold.

I am not doing so. The original poster (and I agree) just also wants a modular Mac machine.

Basically, stop using the argument “no REAL professional would ever...”. It’s a worthless argument.

I have nowhere said that, please stop putting words into my mouth.


It's absolutely ridiculous. The very fact that the tech community can't even come to a full consensus on who the device actually is for... it's very telling that it's really for no one.

Serious question. Can you manipulate 8k streams in real time on your workstation? Can you playback 3 streams of 8K or 12 streams of 4K simultaneously?

I'm not in the industry but from what I have observed of friends who are this Mac Pro is a machine that will evolve workflows compared to a DIY build workstation. As far as audio is concerned which I know more about this Mac Pro will be the industry standard for quite some time. They are already redesigning DAW software to facilitate the extra potential it provides.

The Mac Pro can't do any of that either unless you get the add-in cards that specifically accelerate that. There's nothing magic about the core system. Same Xeon-Ws that everyone else has. Same ECC RAM as everyone else. Same PCI-E lanes as everyone else. Same GPUs as everyone else. Same performance as everyone else.

The video accelerator card is the only Mac Pro-specific thing, and it's competing against existing (albeit more expensive) products that enable that, too. Like the RED ROCKET-X. Or the CUDA-accelerated decoders on Quadros that you can't put in a Mac Pro.

I bet he can do that more effectively on his DIY build than a top of the line Mac Pro can. Hell, he can put a faster Xeon in for half of the price and already beat it on whatever the Xeon would beat an I7 in.

The graphics card in the Mac Pro is older. You can add multiple. There's nothing revolutionary about it that can't also be done with (for example, as mentioned above), dual 1080 Ti systems or better.

Except... if your content is all in ProRes. Then the accelerator card makes an appearance and could make life more pleasant. But if your workflow isn't ProRes, then that pleasantry comes at the cost of 1) more than doubling storage requirements, and 2) transcoding time (which is slow, because the ProRes accelerator won't help in turning something else _into_ ProRes).

For DAWs, I'm struggling to see the "extra potential" - it's a Xeon processor.

You answered pretty conclusively. It's like saying an f1 car is useless because you can't fit your family.

Apple: Xeon W, 8 cores, 3.5GHz, 32GB RAM, 256GB SSD, $5,999 [1]

Dell: Xeon W, 8 cores, 3.7GHz, 32GB RAM, 256GB SSD, $3,506 [2]

I know there are some configurations at some points in the product refresh cycle where Apple computers are price-competitive with Windows computers, but this isn't an example of it.

[1] https://www.tomsguide.com/us/mac-pro-2019-specs-price,news-3... [2] https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/workstations-isv-certif...

And you need to consider that Xeon W by the time the Mac Pro ships will be an even worse value in light of what AMD is doing. The W-3223 is a $749 chip and has only 8 cores and 16 threads. At a similar price point (rumors are 700-ish) we expect the EPYC 7282 with 16 cores and 32 threads at only a slightly lower clock (rumors are 3.2 base vs 3.5 for the Xeon W). And let's not forget the ... well what else can be said? ... the epic amount of PCIe bandwidth these EPYC chips will bring. Without using very expensive data center oriented PCIe 3.0 x8 SSDs, normal PCIe 4.0 x4 SSDs are going to give these EPYC servers a very serious boost.

I had actually set some money aside ahead of the WWDC, wanting to replace my iMac 5k with a Mac Pro, if such a thing was announced. So for the starting price of the "can" Mac Pro (2999), or somewhat above, I would have hit the trigger. But there is no way I can afford or justify the 5999 - and until you have a working system, there is so much more money to spend.

I sill have a 2008 Mac Pro (the last good one) and it actually was priced in line with equivalent Dell or HP workstations.

> Pretty good value for money for pros who need what it is designed for.

Come on, this is just not true. It's an 8-core with 32GB of RAM and 256GB SSD for 6000$. Just because Apple found some PC workstation that's even more expensive than the Mac Pro doesn't mean it's good value.

Not for "pros" in general. For a certain group of video editors it is great. For other professionals, it would be nice, but is priced far outside of the budgets.

Not sure what you expected with the pricing, Apple isn’t known for bargains.

$12,000 is a little excessive.

It starts at $5999.

And you should only be buying the monitor if you are after a reference quality display. In which case you would know how cheap it is.

> And you should only be buying the monitor if you are after a reference quality display. In which case you would know how cheap it is.

Apple's display specs are impressive but it's not actually going to compete with reference displays. It's missing all the actual reference display features (interlacing controls, SDI inputs, programmable LUT, info overlays, etc...). You can buy more products that add that, like this input box from Blackmagic: https://www.studiodaily.com/2019/06/blackmagic-caters-apple-... But now the price is adding up and you've got more boxes and dongles to deal with.

But out of the box the display itself is competing with high-end color accurate displays, the content creation displays. It's not competing at all with reference displays.

All that said more relevant to this discussion is the fact that Apple doesn't have a cheaper display at all. If you want a workstation and you go to an Apple store the only monitor option they have is the Pro Display XDR, when all you may actually want or need is the display from an iMac just in a standalone case for use with the Mac Pro.

The amount of Apple shilling on this board is incredible. $5999 gets you a base configuration that is outperformed by any $2000 Dell.

Let me know which model of Dell support 1600 nits brightness.

The Acer ProDesigner BM270 is 1700 USD and 1000 nits just as well... (1600 is not sustained on the Apple monitor.)

That monitor is 4K versus Apple's 6K.

Pretty big difference.

The base model is unfit for purpose for basically every possible buyer.

I've argued that that's probably deliberate - everyone buying the new Pro ought to need a lot of something. For some people it'll be CPU, some people GPU, some people RAM, some storage, etc. The base model has a good enough CPU if all you need is loads of GPU, a good enough GPU if all you need is loads of CPU, etc, etc.

tl;dr the only people who buy the base model will be the enthusiasts who just want a Mac Pro, and they are indeed getting a bad deal, but this machine isn't for them, however much they want it to be.

I think the bottleneck for nearly everyone is the 256GB SSD, which is borderline insane for a $6000 machine. A 512GB or even 1TB SSD over 256GB is peanuts (well, unless you purchase the upgrade from Apple).

256GB does not store you a lot of RAW photos, video, or whatever Pros are editing with this machine.

Pros aren't using the drive in a machine as the authoritative storage for raw photos, videos, or whatever they're editing with that machine. Hell, I don't even do that, and I'm just a nerd with a couple of cameras.

A couple year ago I started buying computers with the smallest hard-drives offered, because my primary storage is now on an NFS NAS across a VPN (if I'm not home.) Everything is in one place and the storage is cheaper. NFS thankfully works better on MacOS than it did a few years ago.

Not a good configuration for everybody, but pretty good for me.

>> Now I read that they are releasing updated mbp 13 without touchbar

Where did you read this?

Recent pro hardware (Mac Pro, iMac Pro, iPad Pro, and yes, the Mac mini is "pro" now) has been excellent. The laptops haven't been refreshed since Apple started firing on all cylinders in this regard.

Going all-in on USB C was the right move. I love having just one cable sticking out of my MacBook Pro to connect to a 4K display and provide power to the MacBook (and use the display as a USB hub for wired Ethernet, etc). And being able to pick either side. So for me it's the right tradeoff. For non-me's they should make a breakaway USB C charging-only cable.

(Charging the first generation Apple Pencil from the iPad Pro itself was great design, by the way, until wireless was ready. Charging the mouse from the bottom was not.)

I have the latest Macbook Pro, and I hate the USB-C. I have a keyboard, stereo, and 4k monitor; none of which can be plugged into my laptop without a dongle.

In fact, I do not yet have a single device that I can plug directly into my laptop. And this years after they made the switch.

It seems most of the comments have an assumption that current Apple hardware is not doing well, pushing more for aesthetics and failing to be a truly useful computer. I don’t really think so, negative reviews get to have much more spotlight and views than positive ones; (One reason is that positive people about the devices won’t be ‘whining’ as loudly as the negative ones do; another one is that post-SJ Apple is constantly criticized by ‘not becoming innovative as much as SJ’) and HN is a particularly great place for these negative reviews take place. While I also think time to time that Apple could do better than the current HW(e.g. turning on haptic feedback on the TB as default), the current HW lineup is pretty great, I would say. I find the TB immensely useful in my workflow, (partially because I use a custom Emacs that I took my time to hack on to display touchbar buttons for my workflow... why doesn’t Emacs/gVim gain TB support?̊̈) especially when I’m using Finder or Safari, Emacs, MS Office... and my friends that sneered at using an Apple laptop started to evaluate using it after '18, when the keyboard issues got pretty much fixed. I also find the discussion around the butterfly mechanism of the MacBooks pretty much disconcerning, there are pretty much people who love the feel of the butterfly, (not all people like long pitched keyboards, especially on laptops), and Apple managed to fix the keyboard issues with dust in 2018, which I would say, pretty much immediately after it was discovered. I’m fine with Mr. Ive departuring from Apple, as far as Apple designs great products that value on both function and form. If Apple becomes a usual computer company that starts to listen to all consumer complaints and makes and sells usual computers that other companies can make, that’s a pretty concerning future.

> and Apple managed to fix the keyboard issues with dust in 2018

No they didn't, mines a 2018 and has had a ton of keyboard issues also Apple themselves admit it isn't fixed even the 2019 isn't fixed [0]

[0] https://support.apple.com/en-gb/keyboard-service-program-for...

AFAIK 2018 and 2019 models are just in the program ‘just in case’, and it’s more to give confidence in buying the new MBPs to potential customers, not because they have problems.

As far as you know? Do you have any insight, or is that just your hypothesis?

I agree.

Getting rid of the headphone jack is to me much like getting rid of the floppy. I love having four usb-c ports on my mbp that is either power or data transfer. I bought a 13” mbp last year when they got four cores, loving how portable and light it is, and just connecting one cable gives me display, power etc,

Every day I love my expensive current rig of mbp, iPad Pro with pencil, AirPods and bose q35.

> this is exactly the story Apple would want to tell shareholders in the wake of Ive's departure

That is so not true. This story paints the picture of a dysfunctional org under Cook’s watch who is dramatically less inspiring than Jobs to their key design team. I don’t know if it’s true but it’s definitely not what a company would want to feed to the press.

The ideal story in situations like this is that they’ve been working on a transition for a awhile and the company is in good hands, without all the dissatisfaction stuff.

But I don't get the impression that "everything is fine" from reading this story. First, there's the context that Apple's iPhone business is "faltering" and its product line has flatlined. For anyone who thinks that the spirit and innovation of Jobs lives on through Ive, this story throws cold water on that. In addition, the story emphasizes how much less Steve-like Apple has become since Cook over, with Ive seemingly being the last holdout of the glory days. If you buy into the story that Apple lives and dies by its emphasis on revolutionary design, this story is a major downer.

I guess it depends on your viewpoint on engineering vs. design, but I imagine the story's last graf is depressing for those who prioritize the latter:

> Mr. Ive’s old design team—a group of aesthetes once thought of as gods inside Apple—will report to COO Jeff Williams, a mechanical engineer with an M.B.A.

I'm so glad they finally removed magsafe. FINALLY, both cables going into the powerbrick are replaceable. It never once saved my laptop from cord trip doom, but did cost me a lot in buying whole new powerbricks when the cord eventually wore out.

But whatever, who buys apple for the hardware? I mean, its a super nice bonus that it is overall the best hardware, but that's not the key reason.

They could have made a replaceable Magsafe cable.

It saved my machines quite a few tines over the years since it came out in 2006.

The actually desirable feature was for the cable not to fray and disintegrate every 2 years. Making it replaceable at the expense of Magsafe is hardly the solution.

The first I do when I get a new power brick is tape both ends of the cord with electrical tape. It looks ugly but they last as long as I have the laptop (usually 6+ years), and I don't care about how it looks.

I have ripped the MagSafe out many times. One at each end would have been the best.

Ugh I hated MagSafe. If I used the computer on my lap, any movement of my leg would push up on the charger and stop charging because the tiniest force would move it up and down. But if I trip on the cable and pull it straight out, the whole laptop comes clattering down because it requires super-human force pulling straight out if you want to break the connection.

Basically in my experience MagSafe is that annoying thing that keeps unplugging my laptop when I bump the charger while still damaging my laptop if I trip on the cable.

> But whatever, who buys apple for the hardware?

Unless you mean because they need Xcode, are you joking? My personal Mac runs Linux, and my work Mac (with mandated image) frustrates me with macOS all day.

> But whatever, who buys apple for the hardware? I mean, its a super nice bonus that it is overall the best hardware, but that's not the key reason.

Good point! I had to buy a Mac for doing iOS development. I was (reasonably) happy on Linux before that.

I bought my Macbook for OS X as well. I was extremely unhappy with Windows 10 (and Linux wasn't an option because one of my core uses is music production which is barely supported)

I buy them for hardware actually (and wipe OSX, install Windows instead). My 2013 MBP is fantastic, but I probably won’t get the new MBP as the next machine, as the hardware just got too weird (huge trackpad, touchbar).

Same thoughts here. Apple lost it 4-5 years ago, Jobs was never replaced and the old magic just died, but slowly. Ive alone cant handle ship, as is evident. Here we are.

I can't say I am happy about where the Mac headed (though I have hope after the last WWDC). However, the Apple Watch and AirPods are absolutely stellar products. I love them both and wouldn't want to live without them. Both are post-Jobs.

Hopefully I'm not the only one that thinks that prices for iphones are insane. I use a handful of apps (yelp, maps, mail, news, music, and (occasionally) browser) which are readily available on all phones. Paying $300 for my moto vs 700-1000 for an iphone is a no brainer..

Well, if you don't mind uploading your private live to the Google cloud, Lenovo, and whoever else paid enough to get stuff shipped on a Lenovo phone.

For most people who do not want to spend much money on a phone, I just recommend them to buy an iPhone 6s or perhaps 7. You get most of the privacy benefits of an iPhone, for an affordable price. And even though it is an older model, it will probably get updated longer than most new Android phones at the $300 price point.

I don’t know why it would be cynical to think that Apple has known about his departure for some time, at least in terms of a general timeframe. I’d be very shocked if he blindsided Apple.

I think he's saying that Apple would say this regardless of whether they knew of his departure in advance or not.

Am I the only one on HN who actually likes the Butterfly keyboard?

I find that I type faster on my 2018 Macbook Air than on my 2015 Macbook Pro

The problem isn't the feel for most people, it's that it breaks quite easily.

I like the butterfly, at least more than the previous generations keyboards. However, the problems with the butterfly keyboards are inexcusable for the price of the laptops (along with one-week repair times). Luckily, my MacBook Pro 2018 seems to hold up fine.

Nope I’m the same, my 2018 MBA keyboard is the best keyboard I’ve used, and I loved the old Thinkpads too. The 2016 MBP keyboard on the other hand is terrible.

I think the thing is, that Apple is missing a chief engineer rather than a head of design. I really like most of the Apple designs from an aesthetic perspective, but they need an engineer to loudly tell them, when their beautiful designs cut too much into proper engineering and usability.

Keyboards need to work, "pro" laptops need enough cooling and repairability, in general, you shouldn't have to throw away working parts just to repair other parts glued to them (how can they have the desktop iMac being glued together at all?).

Interesting - I read it as something rather different - a hatchet job on the management style of Tim Cook - not exactly what I would be presenting to shareholders

I'm hoping they'll go steampunk!

Either that, or full Pink Hello Kitty.


Or both, to differentiate between pro and consumer.

It might be partly the truth. People often leave for lessened control/interest rather than other gains. It takes years after the leave to reveal that kind of reasoning anyway.

> look forward to Mac laptops that gain useful features and don't fall apart in months.


The key product has been the phone. The computers and the tablets don't have the volume or the convenient payment mechanism. People on contracts just pay for these iPhones without caring too much about it being real money.

Anyway, the oxygen supply died on the phone a while ago but the momentum of the whole mobile phone business was such that nobody has noticed that the solid rocket boosters ran out of fuel and were chucked away three years ago.

Only if you work in the sector do you really appreciate how it has all changed. But if you build a business and an eco system around constant growth then things do fall back to earth rather quickly when everything stops growing. Sales may be magnificent but that is no good if there is no growth and the world has come to expect growth.

An ever growing business does not have to be efficient. Losses can be covered over because more sales make the previous mismanagement of expenses seem like small beer money.

Apple de-coupled the figures so we don't know how many units were shifted. Then they say that they are selling services now. But this isn't going to fill the hole left by the lack of iPhone opening day queues (remember that madness?).

These Chinese phones are going to be the default devices for a lot of people. When it comes to price or function they have it covered. Trade wars are not going to stave that situation off forever.

If you have bought into the Ive Apple eco system it all works perfectly. But if you are an outsider a lot of it seems daft. You can't plug your Apple phone into your Apple computer without dongles, then it doesn't rapid charge if plugged in that way or even move data quickly.

Then, with your Apple computer the touchscreen doesn't work. If you have had pinch to zoom for a while on a normal laptop you find it odd that Apple machines don't have that. The keyboard failings and much else is not necessarily design, sometimes things just don't work out. But when the phone doesn't plug into the computer, then you know that is a design thing.

The product lifecycles have also been bad, same Apple computers year in year out when most laptops get refreshed when new CPUs come out. It is absurd how Apple make what they feel like making not what their customers want. Ive was at the helm and the ship went off course five years ago with only those in the thick of it realising not all was well three years ago when sales started to slow on the product that matters - the phone.

> If you have had pinch to zoom for a while on a normal laptop you find it odd that Apple machines don't have that.

Pinch to zoom works perfectly on my MacBook Pro. Using the touchpad.

Registration is open for Startup School 2019. Classes start July 22nd.

Guidelines | FAQ | Support | API | Security | Lists | Bookmarklet | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact