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>"Either Cloudflare has some pre-existing beef with Verizon and is using this as an opportune moment to dump on them"

Indeed. And that's not going to help them or their customer's in the least the next time they need Verizon's cooperation to resolve an issue. You would never see this type of behavior on the NANOG mailing list which has been on the front line of communications between ISPs and providers for BGP issues since the beginning of the commercial internet. It is very much a "community" with reciprocal respect and professionalism, things this blog post was devoid of.

> You would never see this type of behavior on the NANOG mailing list which has been on the front line of communications between ISPs and providers.

What element of the blog post are you referring to? NANOG often speaks in jargon and obtuse-professional speak, but with large routing leaks there are always strong opinions expressed. It's been this way going back well over a decade.

Another counterexample: go search the NANOG archives for opinions on AWS, EC2, and SES. You won't find much reciprocal respect - you'll find a bunch of unabashed criticism on how AWS operates, and how that affects the internet.

This is a clash of cultures. Cloudflare knows their customers expect a fast, accurate, transparent explanation. NANOG participants are used to an environment where their dirty laundry isn't aired in public to the point where they get calls from reporters asking about it.

Cloudflare is walking a tight line where they're trying to accurately explain to a lay audience what happened to their customers. They can't assume their audience knows what AS 701 is, or BCP 38, or the DFZ, or the prior harm that BGP optimizers have been known to cause.

A "professional" NANOG thread would touch on all of that, it just wouldn't be pieced together under a single byline for a mass audience.

"the next time they need Verizon's cooperation to resolve an issue" According to the Cloudflare post, they didn't get Verizon's cooperation to fix a partly-Verizon-caused issue this time, so what do they have to lose?

Weird response by the Verizon employee.

> You guys have repeatedly accused them of being dumb without even speaking to anyone yet from the sounds of it.

Not for lack of trying...

> Should they have been easier to reach once an issue was detected? Probably. They’re certainly not the first vendor to have a slow response time though. Seems like when an APAC carrier takes 18 hours to get back to us, we write it off as the cost of doing business.

It wasn't a slow response, it was no response. And either is unacceptable for a tier 1 carrier.

> But this industry is one big ass glass house. What’s that thing about stones again?

And other carriers are actively working to change that - including, in particular, CloudFlare.


I think what lima is saying is the Verizon employee basically says "Why didn't you call us for comment before publicly complaining that we never answer our phones?"

CloudFlare is not a tier 1 carrier if you go by the strict definition of the term, just like Google isn't - but it's one of the largest content networks, reponsible for a significant percentage of internet traffic, with a global carrier-level backbone. Google and CloudFlare even tend to have better internal routing than most tier 1 providers.

They are not a carrier period! They don't sell transit. A Tier 1 carrier does settlement-free peering. They are a CDN. And no the most certainly do not have a "global carrier-level backbone." Argot or whatever they are calling their product is not an actual backbone with dedicated fiber, submarine cable etc. There would be no reason for them to invest in fiber and lightwave gear as they are en edge network full stop. Your comment shows a lack of understanding of how the internet actually works.

Whats up with the Verizon employee comparing AS701 to APAC carriers? That’s a super harsh thing to publicly say about your employer.

I’d say that Verizon’s lack of cooperation was devoid of any respect or professionalism.

Yes, very much professionalism including such recent email threads titled "Russian Anal Probing"

Cloudflare's bet is essentially that they can control so much of the internet infrastructure that they can behave however they like and we all simply have to deal with it.

> behave however they like and we all simply have to deal with it

So basically what Verizon did by looking at BCP194 and saying “nah, too much bother”??

Not really. You don't have to be a massive player to screw things up with BGP.

No doubt.

But it’s 2019 and I can’t muster up much sympathy for a tier 1 who can’t get inbound filters and a responsive NOC implemented correctly - things which were table stakes in 2009.

2009? You are being generous. I'm pretty sure when I was managing BGP announcements for my small ISP in 1999 route filtering was a thing.

Exactly. All these comments about how rude cloudflare is forget this style of public shaming of AS’s that can’t perform basic hygiene on their own network has been the norm rather than the exception for over twenty years. And further, all the surprise that cloudflare was quick to report - here’s the deal: bgp doesn’t lie. The second something is wrong, everyone knows who did it. There’s zero mystery. It’s not like some grand caper that takes months of investigations. Operators basically have one rule - don’t leak bad routes to everyone else. That’s pretty much the only rule that’s a constant. When you break it your karma goes to zero, everyone dumps on you but life goes on.

You don't need to be a massive player to initiate the screwup, but you kind of need a massive player like Verizon to amplify it for you. That's why the onus on them should be greater.

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