Never comming back, not even with all the toilet paper in the world
The feeling is shared with alot of friends (we joke about this as a way to keep the good mood agains the crisis) but a lot of people have realized that toilet paper is not the correct way plus a huge waste of money (we have to pay around 0.5$ per roll nowdays)
Bidets are not a thing here but since alot of Venezuelans are on my same position and also alot of venezuelans have migrated to Argentina, a country where bidets are pretty common, I foresight it becoming a thing in the next few years.
Invest in bidets!
A really practical solution to simulate a real bidet is to buy bidet cleansing foam and/or a portable bidet.
You spray the cleansing foam into regular toilet paper, and it does improve performance a lot. Afterwards, just use the portable bidet.
Germany should have bidets like any other civilized country.
I dare to mention, that a lot of bidet development has to do, with the lack of piping that could handle large congesting cellular clumps of matter.
So - the more recent the canalisation - and the bigger the pipesizes used, the less need for biddets.
I can immediately see the application of a tersorium, but not water and soap.
That sounds disgusting, but is it really more disgusting than the stuff toilet paper leaves behind? A friend of mine once explained, "you wouldn't use a dry rag to get peanut butter out of carpet, you'd use water and potentially some soap, so why is the bathroom any different"? I don't know about others here, but I'd rather be clean than have little bits of feces being carried around all day, and I already touch poop fairly regularly since I have small children in diapers, so it's really not that gross to me anymore.
Here in the states, I use toilet paper again, but that's not because I prefer it, but because people here don't have small buckets or bidets (and I'm not bringing one with me), and I feel those disposable wet wipes for bathrooms are too wasteful.
And to demonstrate this they used human stature (height) as a way to workout the effect of this practise on health and well being, and the results were constinent with the hypothesis.
Conclusion: People are taller in the countries where toilet paper is used.
Unfortunately, few minutes of googling didn't turn up any links now.
The problem with using hands is that the people often shortcut and do not wash hands properly now if you don't use hands, then this entire problem disappears.
What do you value more, then money spent on toilet paper or the time spent washing your hands properly?
The law of life is that people will often take shortcuts where it is possible to take one and along the way suffer consequences which weren't in their mind at that point because all they wanted to achieve then is to get through this fast enough to do something else later.
To get best of both, there can be a service where someone else washes you but then you lose privacy and you need to allow others to touch you but then it's also possible if that person's health suffers then you might also suffer on subsequent contact.
When I lived in the Philippines and used a bucket and my hand (and yes, alcohol afterward to disinfect), I didn't bother with a rag because it was so hot and I'd dry off quickly anyway. However, in fancier places with bidets, a rag to dry off after is completely normal. And it's just as sanitary as using a hand towel after washing your hands because you're already clean.
I see what you did there.
The first time I used a modern bidet was eye-opening.
It eliminates the funk. It's environmentally friendly. It's easier on the bum, if you have hemmaroids (I don't, but this is the report from friends and family that do suffer). And it just feels refreshing.
The toilet paper is only needed to sanity check cleanliness and dry out.
The American squeamishness over the bidet is irrational and overdue for a change.
Also - how do you prevent the bidet from becoming a fecal squirtgun? It sits inside the toilet no? Aren't you in effect washing off with everyone's shit mixed in?
Filipino uses a system called tabo, or sometimes a hand hose bidet (I call it the bum gun). If the pressure of bum gun is strong enough, well, it's like a pressure gun. You shoot it at 45 degrees angle (cause 90 hurts lol).
If the pressure is not strong enough, then use it like tabo. Tabo is a water scoop. You water your hand, you water your butt, then you soap both of them, and wash it out. It's a shower but just for your butt.
This sounds a little bit weird and disgusting but it is the cleanest since it's like a shower. Nothing beats a soap and scrub.
If there's tissues, take a tissue, pat down your butt so it's dry, put it in the bin.
Hope that explains it!
And what of the fecal aggregate?
2. The area that needs cleaning is within a valley formed by your butt cheeks. So there's really no splatter.
3. Bidets are for the home. It's not an impossible problem to solve, but I wouldn't use a public one. I do know that the squirt gun is washed before and after use automatically, but really. When you poop, how do you avoid the inevitable water splash as the poop dives in?
In any case there are manual portables that one can carry in a pocket or purse, however. I don't bother but the option exists.
> how do you prevent the bidet from becoming a fecal squirtgun?
I have the same concern about the bidets installed inside toilets. Using "bum guns" which hang next to the toilet solves that problem though!
Sit-stand desk https://jakeseliger.com/2015/01/24/geekdesk-max-sit-stand-de...
> Loving your work, not many people go to Myanmar (Burma), and if you happen to find a toilet (and these days they tend to be Western-style sitters rather than squatting over hole sorts), put the paper in the basket or bin provided. It's worth noting here, that if you're caught short on the road, it's best not to go too far off track to find a bush as there are an awful lot of landmines littered about.
But there is one thing which stops me. I'm not sure of the exact details. Even in this thread, I don't know the brass tacks of using one. Do I turn on the sprayer and that is that? Or do I mechanically rub my ass with my hand during/after the anus gets wet? Then do I use toilet paper to dry? Just how much of my ass is going to get wet? Then of course I need to use soap and water to clean up my hands. But someone else below said they use soap and water on their butt. Too much is left to the imagination.
Does anyone want to provide a detailed, step-by-step process of what I should do once I install one?
The way I was taught as a Middle Eastern man was: first use toilet paper at least three times to remove the majority of the material. Secondly, hold the spray hose or the bottle in your right hand and point downwards towards your perineum from the FRONT of your legs. Use your left hand to lift your junk and have two fingers down there. Now pour water over your left hand towards the perineum, and let the fingers carry the water and rub to clean out the ass crack. Usually a single litre water bottle is enough to feel extremely clean and refreshed. This method obviously works better if you’re squatting, but I use it with western toilets too. The most common mistake people make is to try and put their hands behind their back or pour the water from behind - makes a mess and doesn’t clean right. The imagery of the cleaning motion is like a woman fingering herself.
More detailed instructions in case you want to try it: https://www.thailandclimbing.com/chiang-mai/how-to-use-a-squ...
It seems like bidet fear but 10x. For no good reason.
But for a short answer:
1. Just water, the pressure is more than sufficient. Hell, it's too much sometimes.
2. You can get models that air dry, but even the good ones aren't too quick, so it's pretty common to use a few squares of TP to dry.
3. Depends on you. If you habitually sit off-center you might actually get a wet cheek. Otherwise it's eerily spot-on.
4. I don't know about using soap on my butt. That seems like it would be ... irritating. Water is plenty by itself.
I recommend trying one of the cheapo ones (Neo, for example), as they will give you an idea of what a washlet is like for a tenth or less of the cost. No heated seat or water, but I found that to be less of an issue than I expected. I bought the cheap one to see what I thought, and a couple years later I still haven't bothered upgrading to a Toto. I like the cold water. But where I live, it's not that cold.
Mine isn’t fancy, it doesn’t use power, just water pressure. The only setting is for front (for people without a penis) or for back (for everyone with an anus), and a knob for pressure.
You poop, and when you’re done, without getting up, you turn it on, and the jet of water shoots upward and hits you in the butt. It’s within an inch or two of the hole, and you can easily feel where it’s hitting you. A little wiggle/adjustment of your body on the seat to get it aligned (oh, you’ll know) and then you wait about 2-4 seconds. A little leaning of your body in the forward/backward axis (an inch or two, maybe) to sweep the crack, then you’re clean and you turn it off. Usually a second flush (if you’re the courtesy flush type like me) and the whole event is like it never happened.
Your hands are never involved, except to turn the knob on and off.
I don’t end up wet enough that I need TP at all—haven’t bought it in a year or more. It works more on pressure than water volume, sort of like the sprayer on a sink to rinse out a glass. Pretty much only the crack gets wet, it is more of a single focused jet than a spray. Some people like to use TP to dry afterwards, but there isn’t much water on you once you turn it off. It’s focused and it doesn’t really spray your cheeks or anything.
Mine was under $50 on Amazon. I buy one for every place I live in now, and couldn’t imagine going back. It’s night and day.
There are other kinds which are more of a sink sprayer kind where you hold the sprayer and have to do some aiming and whatnot; I have little experience with those. Mine is the squirting type that installs between the toilet seat the the ceramic bowl (“lux neo 120”).
Here's a pretty affordable one: https://www.amazon.com/Abedoe-Upgraded-Handheld-Sprayer-Oper...
In answer to your question: I find that the bidet gets rid of all of the poop the vast majority of the time. I just pat myself down with a small amount of toilet paper to dry myself off. If I see poop on the paper I give myself another rinse.
I can't handle dry wiping now. I save my poops for home.
Not part of that playlist, but a beginning recommendation of mine is their video "Everyday Moments in History - A Roman Soldier Prepares Dinner"(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-l_EbXE3LU).
Rather than the Tersorium (basically a shitty sponge), the answer is the bidet or the bidet shower which is common in the Middle East and Asia.
Wet wipes are a nice upgrade for those that can't stand the thought of TP, although they're usually not that easy to dispose of when not at home.
Honestly, I don't get what the big deal is. People latch on to a solution that still leaves something behind, when another solution is both cheaper and more effective (and eliminates the occasional itching you get if you didn't do a good job with TP). My only complaint is that there not common.
(To this day, whenever I go to Japan and sit on a bidet, I can’t help but think “ahh, civilization.”)
If a bird shits on your hand will you use paper or water to clean it ? Its just that simple to comprehend. Just use water damn it. Cheap, hygienic, no left overs and green too !
I would use both soap and water. Do people just use water without soap?
If I didn't also have soap, I'd use paper over water. Water might leave you visibly cleaner, but you'll spread microscopic poop particles and microbes over a much larger area.
In the vein of recommendations against washing poultry (it increases your risk for food poisoning), I'd put money on bidets being less sanitary.
Diarrhoea is pretty much water, so it cleans up with paper very well.
> If a bird shits on your hand will you use paper or water to clean it ?
That's a misleading analogy. Do you eat off your butt? If I got bird poo on my bare foot, I'd wipe it off in the dirt and move on. Most people shower every few days anyway. I don't care how clean my butt is, just as long as it doesn't smell and it doesn't itch.
(FYI, in English, a space is only used after end-of-sentence punctuation, not before. I've never understood why Indians consistently get this wrong.)
>That's a misleading analogy. Do you eat off your butt? If I got bird poo on my bare foot, I'd wipe it off in the dirt and move on. Most people shower every few days anyway. I don't care how clean my butt is, just as long as it doesn't smell and it doesn't itch.
I think this hits at the root of the disagreement. If I get bird poo on my bare foot, I am totally washing that off with water - i am not comfortable wiping it off with paper and then tracking that onto my hand/clothes. To each their own. I believe it is harder to get your butt not to stink or itch when just using paper. I use water/soap when possible, and fallback to paper when not, usually public washrooms - so I’m familiar with both, if that needs saying.
> (FYI, in English, a space is only used after end-of-sentence punctuation, not before. I've never understood why Indians consistently get this wrong.)
Interesting generalization. I haven’t seen too many Indians do that. But as long as you get the point the OP was trying to make.
Disclaimer: Am Indian.
Well, increased water consumption has a lot of ecological problems as well. Plus most of us westerners would probably balk at using cold water, so we'd waste a lot of energy heating it up too.
Well, using paper costs more water than using water itself. Also, the ecological problems of using paper is far worse than using water alone.
Intuitively, how much water do you think the toilet paper of one bathroom visit would heat, if usef as fuel? (Answer: much less than what you would use to replace TP)
I got curious and did a napkin calculation.
A sheet of TP weights 1.5 grams and you might generously use 10 sheets per visit. Assuming fuel properties of wood, that's 250 kJ of heat energy when burned. That's enough to heat only 1.5 kg of 10C mains water to body temperature.
Also just thinking about how much energy is in the TP doesn’t account for shipping it around at all.
I have no idea what the energy balance is, i just think this thread had vastly oversimplified.
Even the water volume may or may not be an issue. If you live somewhere that water is precious it’s a much different concern than if your location uses surface water that just ends up back in the same river downstream after a trip through your plumbing, for example.
The people in this thread talking about the increased use of water, are quite literally talking out of their arse
Many things are becoming more and more homogenous globally - but I found that weddings, funerals, and indeed toilets appear to be somewhat resistant to that creeping homogenisation.
Many regions don't really use toilet paper, such as Iran, parts of Indonesia, etc. Personally, I like to have it handy, though in case of emergency pages from a Lufthansa flight plan work (try that with an iPad... (and yes, flight plans were printed and freely distributed decades ago)).
More importantly though, many many regions provide an opportunity to wash with water, either via a separate bidet, or built into the toilet ("washlet", as famously in Japan), or with a hose (bidet shower) next to the toilet. A revelation.
If you think about it, using only dry toilet paper is really rather primitive and disgusting. When I build a house, it'll have a German washing machine and dryer (maybe Korean), and a Japanese toilet.
The bananas too ! No comparison to the bananas in the US.
But fruit that doesn’t come in a wrapper, due to the water exposure and things can be somewhat dubious quality at times. (By wrapper I mean a skin that’s removable).
Potatoes and eggplant generally tasted the same to me, as did carrots.
Jackfruit is much better in India too.
Interesting note about the chicken, and this is anecdotal, but I’m pretty sure the chickens are a different bread then what we consume in the US. The bones always seemed thicker with less meat. (Which I believe is a chicken that’s been less bread for consumption )
Obviously, another problem America has with chicken is its addiction to chicken breast, which is really tricky to do well.
Can I just point out that this is a pretty weird combination of topics for a thread?
It describes a competition to breed large breasted chickens in the US, post WW2. The downside to that larger breasts is a decrease in flavour.
I really hope i don't need to finish that thought for you.
I swear this is where the saying 'Don't know your arse from your elbow' comes from.
So the left hand is for dirty work, and the right hand for clean?
But why do we shake hands with the right hand then? I guess there could be some "social respect" reason, but from a germs-and-stuff point of view it seems nonsensical?
let me just, ahem, pass you a hamburger...
I don't go around touching people with it, or eating food; it's enclosed in fabric. That same fabric also makes it harder to fully air dry, which can be uncomfortable.
Nevertheless, bidets are unavailable in (I would say) most households and definitely unavailable when not using the toilet at home. Furthermore, it's rather inconvenient to use it every time after going to the bathroom because one has to pretty much take off their pants and underwear in order to have proper access.
Their only advantage is that they are still more convenient than showering.
The Japanese water toilets don't seem like such a great idea to me, for the same reason that properly washing ones hands after using the bathroom requires thoroughly rubbing them together for some time with soap, not just rinsing them with water: using just water doesn't work. Spraying pressured water will help with cleaning, but also spread fine particles of crap everywhere.
Toilet paper may not be as efficient as a bidet, maybe less efficient than using just water, but it still works and using those Japanse toilets or a bidet is really not the mind-blowing revolution that it's made to look like. As long as one cleans up after using the toilet, washes their hands properly and showers reasonably often, I don't see any advantage to all these contraptions. It's more of a squeamishness or comfort thing. And there's always wet wipes.
The only use of toilet paper in that case would be to dry yourself off after.
Did you buy one in the states?
Please tell me you don't mean this like it appears you do...
$35 on Amazon. Worth every penny!
I thought it is "integrated" in a Japanese toilet? Or do you mean this additional "installation"?
I am now frustrated whenever I have to use paper.
I so strongly agree. It’s funny how I used paper much of my life, but now find it so disgusting.
The brand I bought is a BioBidet. Watch for sales on Amazon, I got mine for ~$200 as a lightning deal a while back (usually $350-500).
Pro-Tip: If you come to the US, please throw poopy toilet paper in the toilet and not the little trash can next to the toilet which is meant for women's hygiene products.
I was very, very confused about the hygienic requirements during a recent visit - turns out that they don't have the plumbing to handle the paper in the loo.
Wet wipes, paper towel, tampons never get flushed. Toilet paper always does.
It gets worse, the ancient Romans also used urine as a mouthwash to whiten their teeth.
Given these numbers and the marketing efforts behind them, it’s hard to argue that the use of toilet paper is somehow natural. On the contrary, toilet paper is nothing more than a technology. So the next time you’re enjoying a morning constitutional, think about the fact that defecation and urination are more than biological functions; they are cultural activities that involve artifacts and technologies that change through time.
* Lots of opportunity in taking on the "dirty jobs" that don't get the glamor.
* Something so ubiquitous and integral to our daily lives is a relatively recent introduction... It's not "perfect," nor "finished;" thinking about this mainstay as a piece of technology that can be made better holds opportunity.
Now, how much land each tree needs, and how long it takes to grow is not exactly easy to calculate. But, something like 2 * 200 trees per acre / 20 years for fast growth forest ~= 1/20 acre of forest per person for sustainable production does not sound bad.
And that’s assuming you can’t use waste streams from some other processes like sawmills.
The resource is too valuable to piss away.
There was even a HN discussion about it:
I had a "itchy butt" for the longest time. Tried many methods, saw many doctors (not fun!). Found no real solution. Flushable wet wipes helped somewhat, but didn't completely solve the problem and it would come back from time to time. Plus I was seriously concerned about clogging.
Then tried a bidet for a week, and... years of pain (I mean, itchiness), gone, just like that.
The decision is clear, at least in my opinion: Water.
Water, by far.
And from so many angles (hygeine, cost, ecology, availablity, ikkiness, etc.)
I said I wonder why, I guess that was a lie. It's about having marketable content, "making the reader feel related to the situation", etc. It does strike me as bad practice though, especially when it comes to actual news. Sometimes I read an investigative piece and think to myself that it might be over soon, after all what could the author possibly have left out at this point, only to take a look at the scrollbar and realize I am at 50%. I wished for a bit more brevity, not the brevity of leaving out facts for the short clickbaity stuff but leaving out all the unnecessary filler material.
From the articles about occurrences and domains I have personal knowledge of I learnt not to trust in the factual correctness of media articles. If they on top of that start with a story, I'm off.
Once upon a time their articles had more substance.
People in tech, on average, prefer the utilitarian. They also, as a whole, on average, are considered to have below average social skills and below average art skills. Their coincidence is not a coincidence.
> To make it even more frustrating to me the article teases different but-wiping techniques used today without telling me which ones. Thanks for that...
For an introduction to South Asian "toilet technology", both very accurate and very humorous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKkryfdtMNQ
[EDIT: also quite humorous is how this is getting down-voted into the toilet. Is it defensiveness? Angry denial?]
It's just posted to a wrong forum then. Hence the readers being nonplussed.
or, perhaps, most tech people. Not all tech people, of course, as is evident from other comments on this page.
The article was on Nautilus, not The New York Times or Scientific America or Linux Journal.
Do tech people deny that they, AS A WHOLE, ON AVERAGE, have below average social skills and below average art skills?
A lot of men in tech also deny that current tech culture is sexist, often misogynist. That's male objectivity for you. Perhaps a similar "biased objectivity" is at play here.
It's all a bit ironic given that the two comments to which I replied are essentially insulting the author of the article and anyone who appreciates things beyond the utilitarian. They are essentially saying, "It's garbage. It's worthless."
You might tell me that even if true, it's not what Hacker News is for. But people in technology are having an outsized impact on our culture, and many people question whether this impact is ultimately good. Where else should people in tech be exposed to thoughts outside the SV bubble?
Note that when I made the comments above, the ones I was responding to where at the top of the page. I felt compelled to counter.
I'm not arguing with you. I barely post on HN anymore, since it is clear such discourse isn't really welcome.
But I will refrain, here on HN.
If you ain't got nothing to say, don't waste my time.
* People are rewarded for how long they can keep people looking at ads, not how much value those readers find in their work.
* Finding/re-engaging an audience via aggregator sites such as this one is cheaper than maintaining an audience loyal to the quality of your journalism. For the most part, people click on titles, rather than domain names.
The end result is small amounts of content, disbursed as slowly as possible, with a clickbait title.
No thanks, I like a conversational story. This Wis written like how the author would tell it live. Humans remember things best when there is a bit of narrative to root the facts to.
For me the endless fluff around the information is just wasted time.
Having said that, I agree that a) this article was extremely light on facts, b) many other long articles about actually important topics digress way too much on setting the scene.
This style is leaking into documentaries too. The best example is "Wild Wild Country" – a six hour long docuseries where I still had to read the wikipedia page afterwards.
Because short articles are penalized in search engine rankings.
if it was just the answer paragraph + affiliate paragraphs you'd notice it, rule of thumb is one paragraph of content per one of cross-linking.