But, yes, I can imagine this is a nightmare..
It’s cheap to train people to fill out a spreadsheet. If you force people to use a custom data portal, you’ll likely increase error rates and give your counterparties a reason to prefer other shops.
The reason we couldn't mandate our own system was that many facilities are jointly owned, and we only had the primary ownership of a minority of facilities.
Not surprised this hasn't changed !
Any documented cases of the lights going out due to an email ending up in the spam folder?
Concerning the 'late fees': if your consumption exceeds your production, you pay what is called balancing energy. Essentially, you have to buy the energy for a price that is set by the transmission system operator depending on the total imbalance in the grid. In some cases, this might actually be beneficial to the energy provider as the balancing energy is sometimes cheaper than the prices you get on the sport market close to gate closure.
I like to connect with other devs working in the same industry as me. I work for Contigo Software, we make ETRM software and various other things for the energy industry.
There's various ways to contact me in my profile if your interested in chatting.
Moving to summer time year-round means that the mornings in the winter will be darker. I like having a bit of daylight in the mornings in the winter, and I’ll miss it when it’s gone. As I’m sure a lot of people will when they realise that getting ‘rid’ of it makes the winter worse, not the summer better.
I am the opposite. For me, the early morning winter sunrise is an annoyance, and just feels a waste of daylight if it's bright outside when I'm asleep. Sometimes in mid-winter it seems like its already starting to get dark when I'm just getting started with my day. Awful!
Using wall clock time as the measure, this would mean the birds sleep later. The hour we used to call 4am would be called 5am. Birds will wake up at the same physical time, but what matters is what our clocks say.
DST is a legislative solution to the problem of getting everyone to change scheduling. So why not use legislation to get those school boards to change scheduling directly?
Also, going on about downvoting breaks the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
Only the petit bourgeoisie (and not all of them, because often the capital and labor portion of their support is separated in modern capitalist/mixed economies) both labor and have even the theoretical ability to direct the hours of the labor, and even there there is a coordination problem since there is value in aligning core work hours with others. In any case, because consistent hours are, ceteris paribus, slightly cheaper, rationally it will be more common for work not to move without mandated clock shifts.
EDIT: To clarify, more common than is the case with clock shifts, not more common than work having seasonal shifts. The latter may also be the case, but is not the conclusion just from the being a marginal cost that doesn't exist when clock shifts are mandated.
Obviously a solution that is "one size, fit all" doesn't exists, hence those (poorly informed) discussions...
The energy's story is mostly a consequence.
Considering that society is already built around morning larks and all the advantages they enjoy, this decision is a tiny, if pleasant victory for the night owls.
I can't recall the last time I was awake early enough to take advantage of that early sunlight hour. It was probably years ago.
The US is already on DST most of the year, so permanent DST is simply the minimum-change method of abandoning clock shifts.
We made a huge mistake when we allowed larks not owls to set schedule our economy and society runs by.
It's also worth looking up the story of why Coordinated Universal Time is abbreviated UTC and not CUT, if you haven't heard it. Time zones are great.
That's correct, with BST in the Summer. It can get confusing when working with people from different countries who aren't aware of BST and who schedule meetings explicitly in GMT, thinking that it automatically includes daylight saving.
A downside to inventing time I guess ;)
It's PDT in summer.
I'm very curious why people long time ago, decided to change clocks, instead of work/school start and finish times. Like we start in April at 8:00 am, and in November, at 9:00.
That could cost less today because we use much less paper, but updating web sites and databases is still a large amount of work. It's far easier to communicate to all the country when to move the clock and keep everything else the same.
Seriously speaking: I wish US gets rid of the clock change (one way or the other).
I wish we would at least call it "summer time" instead of the lie "daylight savings time." There's no daylight "saved."
"As of 2014, the following states and territories are not observing DST: Arizona, Hawaii, American Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands."
2. The 'saving' in the older form 'daylight saving time' certainly referred to 'saving daylight' for use in the evening and not 'saving energy.
In either case, the use of the word 'saving' or 'savings' is, at best, deceptive, and some would say a great example of Orwellian language. Why not call it "We're going to force everyone to change their schedules by an hour" time?
Getting rid of summer time will just make this worse.
I think folks who want the US to be metric will have to go industry-by-industry.
and this repeal only repeals the mandatory adherence to daylight savings. Their next problem is consistency and coordination of the removal of DST among member states. And the Germans seem to be dominating the vote as well, so the really hard work in negotiating with others to remove their DST is the real barrier.
On what basis are Germany dominating the vote? They cannot. No EU member state can dominate a vote. Germany could at best lobby other member states, as other member states can (and do) lobby Germany.
The initial EU online public vote was dominated by German voters. There were 4.6 Million votes, of which 3 Million came from Germany :
"More than 80 percent of respondents to the largest online survey in EU history are in favor of abolishing changing the clocks in summer and winter, EU sources reported Wednesday. Around 4.6 million people took part in the survey, which ran between July 4 and August 16. Three million of the respondents were from Germany.
And from the EU Commission report :
"It should be noted that the largest amount of responses came from Germany (70% of all replies), which has a statistical influence on the average results."
That said, from section 3.2 of the EU Commission report, Cyprus & Greece were the only two countries where citizens voted to keep daylight saving.
Anyway I leave my initial comment below.
I think you read that wrong. You should look at section 3.5.
"The highest share of respondents in favour of “permanent summertime” is in Portugal (79%), Cyprus (73%) and Poland (72%)."
"In the largest survey ever conducted by the European Commission, 80% of around 4.6 million respondents said they favor abolishing the finicky practice of changing the clocks in summer and winter"
"While citizens from all EU member states voted in the poll, around two-thirds of responses came from Germany "
AIUI in most other countries this initial pick-up and publicity just didn't happen.
In which languages?
Separately, the seats are divided into parties, and not all MEPs represent the interests of their national governments — UKIP prior to the referendum, for example.
Not quite, larger countries have fewer MEPs per capita
I suspect it comes down to the issue getting more publicity, interest and attention from media in Germany compared to other EU nations.
I wake up more or less when the sun raises and then go to work. Now if I keep doing that I'm going to show up either too late in the winter or too early in the summer.
We can contribute a measurable number of deaths every year to DST. It's a disaster.
I'm not forcing anything anymore than you do.
Either of those is fine. What's not fine is making everyone change their clocks twice a year so that those options are more similar to each other.
This will make for fun winters, with the sun rising long after rush hour. This is stupid.
This doesn't matter at all. Really. Folks in northern locations deal with it all the time. The sun rises and sets during rush hour in lots of locations in the world and it doesn't cause things to end.
Shops will just start to open at 10 instead of 9 and workdays will start at 9 instead of 8 in those areas where this is a problem.
1. Business hours must be kept in sync with the important countries next to them. This is important for communications between companies. When business hours are off by 1 hour, there is 1 hour less to communicate with your neighbour countries at business hours. That is 12.5% of the business day you cannot reliably contact another company in another country.
2. The clock must be equal to these important countries to not make mistakes when setting appointments.
3. Business people with kids have to bring their kids to school before business hours start. Schools start before business hours, about 30 minutes up to an hour earlier.
4. Shops open relative to business hours.
The reality is that north-west EU will do whatever Germany does. Germany wants GMT+2. That means that all countries west of Germany that follow Germany will have post 10 o'clock sunrises in winter, 2 hours after people get out to bring their kids to school & go to work.
1. That's a non problem. If you're in meetings 8h/day the last of your worries would be TZ. Plus, such a time zone difference already exists today between e.g. France and the UK, Portugal and Spain, or for that matter within the US and other countries, and even within US states themselves (see AZ).
2. No it doesn't. What's most problematic when setting appointments actually is when daylight savings changes times. During the switch your regularly scheduled meetings may get messed up, times that worked for an entire remote team might no longer work for a week or two, and mishaps on new meeting schedules are all over the place. See e.g. https://youtu.be/84aWtseb2-4?t=230 to get a sense of how nutty it can get.
3. 4. I'm failing to see how using daylight savings or not makes any difference.
As a french I don't see the problem with that, I'd much rather have more sunlight in the evening when I can actually go out and do stuff
Maybe not for you, but for many it will be.
The only daylight people will experience is when they leave their job. That's rough.
If you had an eight-hour work day, a one-hour time offset from a neighboring country would mean you overlap with them for seven hours, and they overlap with you for seven hours. One of you loses an hour off the beginning of your day, and the other loses an hour off the end, but that does not add up to a loss of two hours.
This is especially obvious when you have an eight hour workday with an eight hour time zone offset. That does not mean you have sixteen hours less communication time.
There's a good argument for not proliferating timezones beyond a certain point. But, given they exist for good reason, you're always going to have lines that people need to communicate (and even commute) over.
I'm going to echo another responder here: this is total BS. Here in America, it's completely routine for companies on opposite coasts to do business with each other, and there's a 3-hour time difference year-round. If we can handle that, surely Europeans can handle a 1-hour difference.
But it would definitely make it easier to coordinate online events, including gaming. As the world gets more globalised thanks to the internet, maybe it's not such a crazy idea after all.
Or at least, maybe people should be more aware of how their local time relates to UTC, so they can think it both local time and UTC.
If the Germans will really push for permanent +2 time, then there will be a time zone border between us.
Sunrise at 10:00 in the winter? Fine! That at least gives us some light in the afternoon.
Also: permanent darkness rush hours. Nice.
Not sure why this is a problem
For a lot of people in the EU the day starts with preparing the family for work/school. However the day ends with various activities social or others. Shops and other things tends to close later rather than open earlier (eg: have you ever tried finding some judo class for the kids between 5AM and 6AM ?) More light in the evening extends the possibilities.
As other mentioned, I spent all my youth going to school before the sun rises and coming back after it has set. That's the way it is in the North.
I hope they take this opportunity to consider a permanent switch to GMT.
That is because Germany and Spain share time while being almost two timezones apart.
This was done by Franco to coordinate with Hitler long time ago.
Your definition of "making it worse" is actually making the clock go as it should. That is, the sun is at its zenith at 12 o'clock in the morning. This could be considered a lot of thing , but stupid is not.
Rush hour depends on people, people can change behavior. The sun can not.
Anyway, it's so weird to me that daylight savings is such a new concept, it didn't exist where I was born when I was born, but it feels like a thing that ought to have existed for a hundred years at least.
And yet, despite it being so new, people are actually defending it? Mindboggling.
> Anytime I had a problem and I threw a Molotov cocktail, boom! Right away, I had a different problem!
For me the biggest headache would be the date changing in th middle of the day.
Yay, everyone is now on the same time, too bad the concept of weekdays got completely broken in the process...
So we changed it to make it similar to pretty much every other country. Now roughly 10 years later, it looks like we might change it again because people are missing the old “exceptional” grade.
Only it isn’t students, educators or examinators who miss it. It’s the public and politicians. They’ll probably succeed in changing it back, despite no one affected by it wanting it.
It’s universally stupid, but it makes me wonder when we’ll bring saving-day-light time back.
Falsified. I'm affected by it, and I want it, and I certainly know students who do too (Assuming I have correctly identified a Danish compatriot here).
I’m an examinator myself, and we have zero members on STEM educations who think their return are a good idea. We discussied it at our summit earlier this year.
I’d like to hear why you want it back. We originally removed it because it gave Danish students a major disadvantage when applying for anything internationally because people who would be straight A students, ranked a whole grade lover than their international counterparts, despite actually fulfilling the exact same course requirements.
I’ve had students where I would have liked to given them more than the top mark, because they were better than what was required. But I’d much rather give those people a top grade than give people who “only” meet the full requirements of a course a non-top grade. Because the difference might mean that a student who actually deserves an international top mark, loses out on a job or a PhD outside of Denmark. Where as the excellent student walks away with a top mark in both situations.
Most international scales include laude
It is a more than 100 years old concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time#History
In California, daylight savings actually makes sense, it's a noticeable boost of daylight for your office commute in the winter.
In northern Europe, it makes absolutely no sense, because the darkness consumes everything anyway. It takes about a week or two for sunrise to be at the same time it was before the clock adjustment each fall. It's pretty useless.
We could end up with two horizontal time zones. UTC+1 in the north and UTC+2 in the south.
By the way, the few people from my country that voted in that poll were keen about keeping daylight savings.
Spain uses the wrong timezone. It should use UTC instead of UTC+1. The map in the article shows that pretty clearly. That's at least partially the reason people have dinner so late in Spain. It's not them that are wrong it's the clock!
Those countries would probably benefit from using standard time and moving everything thirty minutes earlier (effectively a 30 minute off time zone), but it's hard to implement such a sweeping change.
Sounds like it would pay for a lot of developers careers... And a nightmare.
I grew up at 59 degrees north latitude. Daylight savings was pointless. Wintertime I'd go school in the dark (8am) and go home in the twilight (2pm). Lunch time was bright though...
My parents grew up at 70 degrees north, where daylight saving is totally useless as there is no daylight in the middle of winter.
I now live at 51 degrees latitude and my kids go to school in daylight as school start an hour later here. For a few weeks in the winter daylight saving does make a tiny difference for their morning but not afternoon.
But as an adult daylight saving always went the wrong way as it means evenings get darker sooner. I don't care if I commute in the dark in the morning, but I do prefer to do things after school/work in some daylight/twilight.
So the plan is that instead of people working hours which suit and know about it we agree on a weird collective lie and get everyone to perform the clock-adjusting ritual
Well yeah. Much simpler to make the adjustment once, at an agreed upon time of year, than to have a hodgepodge of different companies, schools, retailers, bagel shops, etc. all move their hours independently. In that case you have a first-mover problem and nobody adjusts.
It's not a lie anymore than time zones themselves are lies. (i.e. Time zones don't follow strict longitudinal lines, they follow political boundaries instead, and are often wider or narrower than the 15° they "should" be)
I'm not sure it is simpler to be honest. It's normal for companies to have different starting hours. I'm just about to move to a job where my official start is half an hour later. That increases to an hour with the actual time time I currently get into work.
Even without that, daylight savings is hodgepodge with different countries starting at different times. Ironically anti-daylight-savings people would be welcoming the current news as good when it will likely just mean more countries having daylight savings but not being consistent.
>It's not a lie anymore than time zones themselves are lies
I can't really disagree.
You need to go to the post office, when does it open, 9, or 10? Did the lunch break change as well?
Was it the bank that changes hours on the first Monday of October or the school?
BrandX have announced they're changing their switch over date to the 3rd Wednesday of September, better add that to the diary.
Oh no I'm supposed to be starting work an hour earlier, but schools don't change till next week, what do I do with the kids.
I get the first bus of the morning into work, but the bus timetable changes after the work timetable so I can't get into work on time for a week.
I can deal with different opening times, I can't easily deal with the inconsistency of all the opening times changing at different points for a month, twice a year.
But the question "when should we go to work?" doesn't have a single authoritative source, it all depends, it's all culture, it's all customs, everyone is free to do their own thing, but protestant work ethic bla bla bla, and here we are with most people starting work at 9, and if you don't, you're a weird slacker.
Yes, agreeing to start work at 10 in the winter is completely functionally equivalent with moving the clock forward an hour during winter, but it's just mentally impossible to implement because humans are weird like that.
Winter time is standard time, and DST is in effect during the summer months to better make use of the extra light available during summer by winding clocks an hour forward. The idea being that you get an extra hour of sun in the afternoon.
Both clock adjustments provide different benefits, which is why we do both, to get both benefits. Abolishing DST means you pick one of the two.
People generally wake up, and go to work the first thing in the morning. They would like to travel to work after sunrise. They would also like to maximize the amount of daylight they get to enjoy outside of work.
This means that in the summer, all the daylight before waking up is "wasted" so you want to move solar noon forward. But if you move it too far, it'll be pitch black when people get to work in the winter, which is why you then have daylight savings to move solar noon back a bit.
If you live further south, like Hawaii, the difference in length of day between winter and summer is very small, so you can't shift solar noon around. Therefore, Hawaii doesn't do daylight savings.
If you live further north, like Sweden, the difference in length of day between winter and summer is enormous, and in the summer the sun rises at like 3 in the morning with daylight savings, and in the winter the sun rises at 10 with standard time, and the rate of daylight change around the equinoxes is huge, so the effect only lasts a week or two. It makes absolutely no sense to have daylight savings there, and the EU parliament making it not mandatory for countries is a step in the right direction, i.e. abolish the useless thing in Sweden.
Spain and the other Mediterranean countries could maybe keep it for all I care, but Spain has a weirdly skewed solar noon anyway...
I think the big screw up from EU was that after the poll (to which pretty much only Germans answered) they just said they would remove DST altogether instead of recognizing that different geographical regions have different needs.
They just wanted a no-cost change to say "see? we listen to people"; but pretty much everyone in southern Europe heard "see? Germans decide for everyone!", and nationalists party marched on it.
From the article it looks like they backtracked on it and they'll allow countries to choose to keep changing time twice a year; I sure hope so.
That's because they're mostly in the wrong timezone, they should be on Western European time like the UK and Portugal. Interestingly enough the reason for that is Hitler :)
> They would like to travel to work after sunrise. They would also like to maximize the amount of daylight they get to enjoy outside of work.
DST ensure that sunrise is kept at around 6 in the morning, this removes the "waste" of daylight from before most people wake up, and moves it to after work hours in the summer.
Here's the same graph for Stockholm:
There's not enough daylight in the winter to cover an entire working day and more, and there's too much daylight in the summer so everyone will "waste" it by sleeping, which makes DST pretty much useless.
Edit: Here's Honolulu for reference: https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/honolulu
The band of daylight is almost the same width over the year, so moving it up and down doesn't do anything for people.
In the winter, you can't have both, so you pick #1. In the summer, you have "extra" sunlight that's being wasted on the sleeping, so you shift it to after work and get #1 and #2.
This is exactly what many countries are proposing. Rather than abolish summer time, just make it permanent.
Except that "noon" ceases to mean the time when the sun is highest in the sky equidistant between sunrise and sunset and "midnight" ceases to be the middle of the night.
In this respect, standard time makes more sense. In no respect does "daylight time" make more sense.
Still, anything that makes us stop changing the clocks twice a year is fine with me.
Only the thin stripes of white have it, for every other place solar noon is off by minutes, if not hours.
Personally, I'd be fine with shifting a time zone or two east and eliminating DST but I understand why a lot of people wouldn't.
On a meta note: It is always super interesting to me how fundamental people think that day length is, if they've never experienced living at different latitudes. The variations are absolutely enormous, and create very different mindsets. That said, seasonal mood disorders are very common in northern Europe for a reason.
Going to school or going to work hours before sunrise in the winter is just the way of things in northern Europe. You don't have a choice in the matter. The flipside is that having full daylight at 10 in the evening during summer is also just the way of things, and the almost non-existant night is a complete mindfuck for people used to less variations in day length.
For a month of winter, there is no daylight at all. It is literally impossible to wake up after sunrise, because sunrise doesn't happen for an entire month.
Winter is in standard time, so DST has no effect on it. (Also, the standard time evening commute in CA is in darkness, and wouldn't be if it was in DST, so even if you are comparing the status quo against permanent DST rather than permanent standard time, that's still wrong.)
DST—“Summer Time”—maximizes post-9-5-working-hours daylight time (to promote shopping and other commercial and recreational activity) in summer, not commute-convenient daylight time in winter.
Nothing at all prevents workplaces from independently adopting their own biannual shift scheduling savings time if they want to. That argument against sane time that doesn't constantly change is "we don't have any power in our workplaces to see the change we want in our working conditions" and all I hear is "wouldn't it be nice if we had a union".
The point of “changing the clock” is that the clock synchronizes all alarm clocks, all contracts, all billboards, al timetables and schedules - so the change updates everything transactionally.
Not exactly good for commmunters anyway. Why would shifting things by an hour make much difference, when alternate arrangements are needed regardless?
It's common to have parents take the kids to school and grandparents or neighbors pick them up, and also the schools open earlier than the time classes start. However, if the parents were to start working at 8:30 with a 45 minutes commute, they still wouldn't have time to take the kids to school and then reach their workplace in time.
"Who is this?"
"Hello Uncle Steve!"
"Do you have any idea what time it is?" Uncle Steve asks, sounding as if he is still asleep.
"Of course I do, and so do you! It's 04:25 on Saturday... everywhere." I add a dramatic emphasis to the last word.
"But do you know what 04:25 on Saturday signifies in Melbourne?"
I can actually hear him rubbing his eyes.
"We don't centre our waking/sleeping cycle on solar noon, fool nephew," Uncle Steve explains. "We centre the school day on solar noon. In countries above and below certain latitudes, where seasonal variation in the amount of daylight is significant, it's important for there to be the maximum amount of light when children are going to school in the morning, and coming home from school in the afternoon. Here in Melbourne, solar noon is about 10:30 Standard Time, so the average school day is timetabled from 07:00 to 14:00, and a typical working day runs from about 07:00 to 15:00. That means that on a working day, I get up at 05:00, at the earliest."
"Ooogh. Sorry. That's about two hours later than I reckoned," I tell him.
"I know," he replies.
"I didn't know you did that in Australia," I say. "That deliberate misalignment of the diurnal routine. Does every country do it?"
"No. Equatorial countries don't, because they get plenty of light all year round. Temperate countries do, though. The technical term for it is 'daylight saving'."
"And 05:00 is when I get up on a working day," Uncle Steve continues. "On Saturdays, I like to lie in. Until solar noon, if possible. That's more than five hours from now."
I'm beaten. "I guess I have no idea what 04:25 on Saturday signifies. It used to be pretty universal, but now where I live it signifies a time to go out and get drunk..."
"And where I live," Uncle Steve says, "it signifies a hangover."
"The same time of day on the same day of the week means many different things to different people all over the world," I say. "Too many to remember them all."
"Yeah," Uncle Steve grumbles. "It would be neat if there was a lookup table for that kind of thing."