Do you say "no"?
> people I work with are proud to tell me they worked the whole weekend for some reason
How do you look upon these people?
It works well for New Zealand - https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/19/new-zealand-experiment-finds... &&
I worked for 3 years at a FAANG and only worked more than those 40 hours a week occasionally, perhaps something in the order of 10% of worked weeks. Even then it'd be 50 hours a week, tops.
Is checking email working? Answering a Slack message? Taking a phone call? Those things don’t feel like work to me, but I don’t think everyone feels that way.
If “being available” is working then I’d say I work close to 17 hours per day. If we’re talking hands on keyboard development, management etc, it’s closer to 8.
I also think commuting within reason should be accounted as work. Lets say 30 mins to go to work and 30 minutes to get back from work. That never happens obviously but in an ideal world it should be happening. I see some airplane crews e.g working for Ryanair 3 and a half hour flight, then go back another 3 and half hour, count an hour in between the flight for the change, and then they have to be redirected to where they live that can be another 3 and a half hour flight but its only in 5 hours from the time they get off. Its not accounted as work for them... but imagine they wouldn't be there in the first place if it wasn't for their work.
Also as I posted at another comment in another similar thread, I think the world should be evolving to a 6 hours 4 days a week schedule. Our work has been way more efficient with computers and it is only getting more and more efficient. We can most definitely enjoy the advancement of humanity by adding more personal time to our schedules instead of working more.
We are not at a point where we are making 1 car a day, we are at a point where there is an influx of cars in factories, an influx of flights across the globe etc.
So I'd counter the title (although since 2012) with : 'Bring on 24 hour working weeks'!
Indeed. Unfortunately in the U.S. we had a recent case about this issue that was decided the wrong way: Integrity Staffing Solutions v. Busk
It's a class-action suit brought by warehouse workers who the warehouse puts through anti-theft screening as they leave at the end of their shifts. They wanted to be paid for this time -- sometimes close to half an hour -- since it's required by their employer. The Supreme Court ruled against them.
Yes, yes, and yes.
Don't think it is so hard that we have to just throw hands in the air and only focus on the story part.
And, surprise(?): hours worked has been dropping since the 1970, not rising. https://data.oecd.org/chart/5skA
https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm to explore more.
After the most recent re-org, it was "please get permission from the manager beforehand".
Either way I could still say "yes" or "no" so I still feel in control in some way, only now it's "in control with permission" on my "yes" if the manager agrees.
While I don't like playing "Timeclock Tommy" as a matter of course, having that mindset does protect my sanity.
It seems naive to see these one-line comments calling for 35 hours or less, when the actual-fact on the ground is extremely the opposite in a large number of cases.
The evil part about this is that there is a lot of peer pressure on others to also show up and support the weekend workers although they have done their job during the week. It requires a lot of willpower to resist that.
Just one or two years ago weekend work was a no no. Now it is like : weekend work, fuck yeah! And our wife's are complaining. That's super funny... I have no idea what the fuck happened...
Bosses respond by heaping more work on the employees who already know what to do and can achieve it efficiently.
You should respond by asking for a raise. Be tactful, do it a few times and then use it as an argument. It really doesn't matter whether they pay you for overtime explicitly or as part of your base.
However I worked for UPS for a few years, and teamsters is the worst organization. You can't advance by merit, only seniority, and job performance is not required to be promoted. You can't get fired except for very specific offenses like sexual harassment. No call no show.or regularly being 20 minutes late weren't cause. Made work a nightmare, with no incentive to work hard and advance. When I became a supervisor and was no longer in the union, it made running your section of the building impossible, unless you managed to trade your poor performers for others.
Yet with unions, so many people think "Unions sometimes do bad, therefore it's just better not to have unions, and all the downsides of not having unions we'll just have to live with".
They're gonna hang a noose and GM is still too scared/unable to fire them? Am I misreading this?
But also can easily also see how merit based promotion at a production plant would be used to work workers to the bone. Gotta be some kind of balance.
I worked a job in NYC once installing a custom stage/set that we had built in Phoenix. It was full of arduinos, custom lighting controllers that i built, custom blinkenlights panels that I had built, custom robotics elements. Just all sorts of completely custom one-off elements.
It was a BATTLE with the union labor that even get it installed on time. They had absolutely no idea what any of the stuff we were doing was, they worked at a snails pace, they took breaks seemingly every 30 minutes, they were expensive, and we HAD to use them even though our fabricators were on site for the install.
It was one of the most infuriating experiences I have ever had. It was like some sort of bizarre nightmare. Worst of all, they used stupid duct tape on all of our cables and gummed them up!
I wouldn’t paint them all like that. Some of their members are brilliant and taught me a lot. Others were negligent cokeheads... but most of them got the job done.
Sounds like a bad crew more than anything.
Edit: can confirm the gaffer/duct tape thing, though. I once worked fixing up high voltage/amperage cabling and distro equipment. They always taped that gear to hell and it was terrible to clean and fix up.
Maybe I've been through the looking glass because I've run my own startups and seen how others run theirs, I know the stupid culture, and I've had people try to bring me into their startups with the culture, and they reword or candy coat it to make it seem like it's ok and everyone is doing it and it's so worth it, but man, it's just a scam, plain and simple. Everyone running the show knows it.
In these circumstances, you work harder when asked to upon pain of potentially losing your job, because the alternative is much worse.
Many of us on here are probably lucky that we can fix it, but I bet a large group just don't because of the culture issue and peer pressure. To those people I say fight for what you want and deserve.
Today’s Dilbert includes the answer:
Dilbert: Give me one reason why I shouldn’t quit right now!
PHB: Because every other company is just as bad.
But I regularly work 60 hours/week anyway because I'm the lead on a major project and want it to succeed and anyway, I love doing it. I'm not sure if I would do it if the company said I had to work 60 hours. I think the productivity of working extra hours is entirely based on the context.
Anyway, there is no way that working long hours is good for your health and well being. It would be fine if you did it one time for an exit, but of course there is no guarantee, and the new normal in the tech world seems to be to keep people on that treadmill forever.
I'm at a Big 4 and it's pretty common amongst everyone I know to work 40 hour weeks.
Another is just competing over workers. As the economy specializes and jobs require more and more training, I wonder if this competition is getting more limited. Industry X is treating workers better than industry Y? Too bad you can't switch because you've invested years of training (and student debt) into Y and you'd have to go back to school to get into X.
Side note: I also wonder whether that contributes to software engineers having it so good. As software eats the world, every industry needs software, so switching from the entertainment industry (netflix) to web search to social media isn't that hard.
Life work balance is on you. Regardless of who you work for or with in the US.
If you still want to whine about it, join the armed forces, serve your country, and get back to us about work ethic and life balance. I’ll wait.