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Oh for fuck's sake. People, there are many reasons why bullying occurs, and there are many types of bullies, and there are many types of kids who get bullied.

Does anyone out there honestly believe that there's a single solution that will work in every situation? I hate to be so condescending, but really now! On a site like this, where we make careers out of handling edge conditions, we should know better.

If a kid punches you because he hates himself, should you punch him back? What if a kid punches you because he's trying to fit in with a circle of friends, and they hate themselves, but he just kinda has low self-esteem? What if a kid punches you because you remind him of a kid that bullied him last year? What if a kid punches you because he's having a bad day, but he feels bad about it after? What if a kid punches you because he likes you, but he has an abusive family environment and punching is the only way he knows to express affection? What if a kid punches you because he hates himself, but he hates everyone else too? What if a kid punches you because he has low self esteem and he's jealous of how smart you sounded in class just now?

The answer to everything up there is not "JUST PUNCH THE FUCKER" or "JUST HUG THE FUCKER." Come on. They are all unique situations in their own right, and they all must be considered separately. In fact, each of those has different solutions based on who the target is. They're schoolchildren. They're humans. They're not computer programs! They're not predictable automatons! If you're new in school and you fuck someone up on the first day, that's completely different from being bullied for six years and then finally punching back. The first has a higher likelihood of getting you left alone. The second will probably make it worse! If you're a small kid and you try to give them a hug, that's different from if you're a big kid. They could say the small kid is only being friendly because he's too wimpy to fight back. They could say a big kid is only punching because he's too stupid to think of a comeback. IT DEPENDS. It fucking DEPENDS.

The whole reason "bullying" remains an "unsolved issue" is because people keep suggesting silver bullets, and there fucking isn't one. Instead of attacking each other's silver bullets, why don't we take the difficult but arguably more worthwhile path of identifying different motivations for bullying and how the psychology of differing responses works? Because this "be friendly"/"punch them out" bullshit sounds more and more like emacs vs. vim to me.

PLEASE?




Uh, no. If someone punches me there really is no decision matrix in which I will not punch him back. His motivations are frankly irrelevant to me and are something he needs to work out on his own.


Congratulations! You've found a formula that works... FOR YOU!


Works for me.


I don't really understand where my point fell short. So, if a bully punches you, you will punch them back. Good. Okay. I honestly have no issue with that. But why do you feel the need to suggest that it's the only possible way that could work for everyone who ever gets punched by a bully?


If someone punches me without any provocation (or even a reasonable consequence) and I am pretty sure they'll do it again without provocation, the only reasonable thing to do is defend oneself by hitting back. That is actually most of the basis of martial arts (in almost all forms), so it's a pretty solid idea. I wouldn't do it if I knew they were in a gang and I'd likely end up dead, but that is a reasonable consideration of the situation.


I believe that those qualifications are important, though. And they're different for every person. You wouldn't do it if they were in a gang. What about Gandhi? ("Whenever you are confronted with an opponent. Conquer him with love.") What about Buddha[1]? What about Jesus? ("Turn the other cheek.") Are they all unreasonable fools--were they "doing it wrong," beyond the shadow of a doubt? Or were their considerations reasonable?

Aikido is a notable exception to your point about martial arts. I highly suggest Aikido and the New Warrior, an excellent book of modern anecdotes describing what it really means to practice "the way of loving harmony."

I'm not saying that hugging is the only way to respond to bullies. In fact, I'm not even saying that I would hug an aggressive bully instead of punching. My point is that you cannot simply say "Quid pro quo, break his nose" and be done with it. Life is more complicated than that.

[1] http://viewonbuddhism.org/dharma-quotes-quotations-buddhist/...:

'You're a fool' said the veteran, 'What if someone had wiped out all the Buddhists in the world and you were the last one left. Would you not try to kill the person who was trying to kill you, and in doing so save Buddhism?'

Thich Nhat Hanh answered patiently, 'It would be better to let him kill me. If there is any truth to Buddhism and the Dharma, it will not disappear from the face of the earth, but will reappear when seekers of truth are ready to rediscover it.

'In killing I would be betraying and abandoning the very teachings I would be seeking to preserve. So it would be better to let him kill me and remain true to the spirit of the Dharma.'


Those cited above likely had others that were less moral attitudes that were willing to break from rank to save the higher up. Jesus is not a very good example for many reasons, but the others lived by very different rules and morals.

Morality is very different from reasonable consideration of facts. I do not want to die so if I know someone will respond with that type of revenge I will avoid causing that. If Gandhi were alone in an alley and started being beat up on, the morality may hold him from fighting back but that doesn't make the risk of dying any lower.


I agree that morality and mortal danger have no correlation. I haven't been trying to argue that, though--if there's someplace where it seems like I was, please point it out so I can clarify.

In your first paragraph, are you saying that a Buddha/Jesus/Gandhi is only a pacifist because he expects lesser Buddhists/Christians to defend him with violence...?

Also, I doubt that Gandhi or Thich Nhat Hanh would claim that their morality decreased their risk of dying. Their point is that it doesn't change anything (for them).


And ME...


I completely agree. To an extent there'll always be a certain cachet associated with violence and 'fighting back' .. it's the macho thing to do, and - by supporting a general violent response - the original poster _could_ be accused of trying to project a more macho stance himself. Thinking about all situations in the same way, is fantasy .. and imagining that violence will always redeem the oppressed is a romantic and foolhardy notion.

Not many people want to be thought of as weak - but strength doesn't need to come from aggression; sometimes confidence and defiance can go a long way to providing any necessary 'short, sharp shock'.




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