You can tell some people are complete night owls. One guy checks in code at 3am and rarely talks to anyone until the evening. I guess he sleeps when the sun is out.
Other people are a bit more ordinary, but still it seems the most productive hours are not quite as early as when most schools or businesses tend to be open. I'd say maybe 10am is the de facto "opening time".
There's also a tendency to have a lull in chat in the early afternoon. People go off to lunch having some ideas about what to do, and then they come back and do it before dinner. Or they are in deep thinking mode and don't want to talk, and then check in the code.
Having no meeting time and no commute seems to help everyone. It gives everyone an extra work day each week, and they can spend their time when they want to. It also makes managing easier, as I don't have to chase everyone at the exact same time.
For junior people or projects that require lots of collaboration, the remote nature does add some overhead. Your culture matters a lot here. If your culture is one of facilitating remote communication, then it can be done without too much drag. If you have a culture where many people are in an office, and don't tend to put things in slack or a video system such as zoom, then the overhead can become huge.
When working remotely full-time, I had some of the most productive days of my life, as well as some of the worst when I had to wait hours sometimes to hear back from members of my team. Highly collaborative efforts tend to suffer quite a bit in the asynchronous distributed model.
I've also been on on-site teams where only one or two junior devs work remotely. This always seems to work out poorly, but based on my observations it's usually due a combination of only being willing to only pay entry level rates, and failing to set deadlines for them. When we waited 4 months on a remote while he apparently just spun his tires on a simple bug, even after I explained the fix to him (it was ~4 lines, I basically said "try looking in X file on line Y, if you fozz the frob, does it fix it?") and he just like, could not. Also he'd have "internet issues" practically every day. Now the company is skittish about remote workers, even though it was obviously their own incompetence in managing him.
I know I personally do my best work when working remote, provided I'm not being pestered constantly. I just wonder if the "remote workers are bad" thing because it seems that many people seeking remote dev work are just starting out in programming or trying to transition from other jobs thinking those high paying computer programming jobs sound easy.
I work now in an office (hope to change that) and when I look around there are only a few percent of people I would trust to do well in a remote environment.
I think the remote-first culture of the company attracts self-managers who value quiet, focused work, and who have relatively good communication skills.
Anyway, I never want to go back to office work after this gig.
I think though the fact that there’s friction to hiring junior people in a remote office situation should be of concern to us. There is always going to be a fresh batch of recruits and if we lose the ability to train them then who will take up that job, and what lessons will those people focus on?
So you'd probably be comparing apples to oranges, since most firms have to compromise on either skill or experience, due to being in a local market. In-office teams have other advantages such as being able to monitor people, and maybe a sense of closeness for people who aren't devs (devs are ahead of the others culturally).
My own opinion is that the tradeoff falls in favour of remote. I've actually never worked with a bunch of people as competent as this, and it's all been quite pleasant too. I also briefly helped a friend run a remote team, and that was similarly pleasant and productive.
Most of my previous experience has been with traditional in-office teams. Commuting is a major context switch, and most people need to go 45 minutes each way. And then they aren't set up to do much from home, and are disinclined when the occasional work-from-home day happens.
That context switch can be quite bad if you think about it. Say you need 2 hours of deep dive concentration to write a piece of critical code, and magically assume it's pointless to try if you don't have the full time undisturbed. Well, if your working day is 8 hours, you can't do it in the two hours before lunch, or the two hours before you leave. If you have meetings there might not be any time at all that day.
By contrast you probably don't have a meeting in my remote team -just say you aren't around- and you can either wake up early or overrun your evening, or move your lunchtime.
The thing is culture is everything. We started remote, and that's always been the deal. It might be different to have an in-office team attempting to go remote.
It's really the latter that in-person collaboration is supposed to help, and I'd argue it is also the latter that is more important to long-term business success.
That said, at some point decisions have to be turned into work, and work benefits from fewer distractions. And IME remote work is better for managing distractions.
I don’t know how to accomplish that in a remote situation. It might be possible, but it would take more introspection on my part to understand what I’m looking for exactly and the tooling overhead puts in jeopardy the organic nature of walking up to someone, saying hey check this out and taking notes.
This is true in my experience. I've worked in on many remote teams and colocated ones and colocated ones have always been more productive. Sure remote teams are sometimes equally as productive but thats in select circumstances.
I am on 100% remote team now for past 3 yrs and remote teams lack any human connection, team culture or shared struggle. Sure I know where everyone lives and how many kids they have but I don't have any real connection with any of them. There is no random conversations/ideas to be shared at lunch ect.
We met once in about 3 yrs. Management is super stingy with any travel thats not absolutely necessary.
Man, this, 100%. We have solid communication as a team, lots of slack or hangouts/webex/skype/go2meeting/whatever, but no one really interacts in a social sense. All communications feel like talking to a customer, and there is a constant CYA vibe that makes routine questions feel like walking on eggshells.
HR meanwhile keeps blasting us with emails about the Ugly Sweater parties or bake-offs in the HQ office that doesn't apply to any of the technical teams. Only reinforces the disjointed feeling, tbh.
It might seem expensive, but if it helps to find the optimal working strategy, then for a large company it could be a bargain.
I always work 7-8am to 12pm, because I need uninterrupted 4-5 hours to get really zoned in. When I come back from lunch, I'm already in a good place to go back to intense focus.
It's mainly so I know what I'm interrupting if I start writing to someone, but everyone can look in the bot's channel for the same purpose.
As for everyone being on different times, it's not a problem. There's always someone you can talk to, and you know what everyone else is doing. Plus there's a chat history for every project, and cards for every outstanding issue.
I've never heard of this before, but I'm going to give it a go on my next project - would he interested to hear if anyone else has tried this?
1. Stand ups aren’t status updates, they’re replaning meetings, conversation matters.
2. People stopped answering the bot. It feels like an impersonal management tool.
3. There’s no need to persist the standup output.
4. Remote workers feel more like they’re part of the team. The whole team can chit chat for a few minutes before to start the day.
5. We worked on streamlining our meetings. They are always between 8-12 minutes. Making it async. Means it might be a couple hours before you get everyone’s info, that slows down the replaning process a lot.
Surely healthy communication isn't forced in-person standups every days. Other professions would probably feel insulted by the practice.
4. Everyone is forced to kill time or disrut schedule so that they can start the day at one privileged time.
5. Aren't you slowing down by waiting for a meeting to get the info? Everyone has to prepare for the meeting in advance, so waiting for the meeting is delay.
- "This implementation of the API was trickier than expected, so it will take a couple of days more I think".
- "Ok, maybe I can help you with it instead of starting with the front end then?"
There are disadvantages of course, such as the fact that any sort of communication regarding the stand-up report must be done asynchronously when people get around to reading it. It also puts some onus on members to actually read each other is reports and respond to questions comments and concerns.
It worked/works well for remote teams and slowly fell out with a lot of big corporations using (Enterprise) Slack.
Interpersonal direct communication and making sure the appropriate people are kept in the loop is far more efficient. Otherwise it becomes a bunch of meaningless chatter.
I also think that stand ups are a terrible idea. It feels like extreme micromanagement. With everyone using slack it’s silly to wait a day for this specific meeting to say what they’re blocked on or raise other issues.
Stand-ups are a waste of time.
Maybe for very new people who need high levels of guidance it could be helpful. But it’s a practice that has no basis in evidence to be so widespread.
It seems to me, FINDING the right team for remote is a lot of trial and error.
(I managed a few small off shore teams and the quality really varied..)
Does everyone live in the same time zone?
I believe I am a night owl. On an average day, I don't get tired until 2am, and without an alarm clock I could sleep until 10am; by any definition this makes me a night owl.
But, I question how much of this behavior is environmental versus innate. I drink a lot of coffee (never after 6pm). I work on a computer all day (blue light). My hobbies generally come alive at night (video gaming, spending time with friends, concerts). I have a naturally addictive and obsessive personality combined with low self-control (when I get started on something, like a new work problem or video game, I can't put it down).
Is there research in the area of identifying actual biological reasoning behind why someone would be an owl versus a lark (genetics, etc)? Or do all of these studies just rely on behavioral self-reporting, which even the article says, is completely vulnerable to the very real problem that people really only know their behavior in the face of all of their vices, and that behavior might be different if the vices weren't there.
The reason I believe that's important is because it should be a factor in our response to this. Yes, people need sleep, and they need good sleep. But if a big reason why you get tired at 2am and thus wake up at 10am is because you're watching Netflix in bed until the minute you shut your eyes, we can't ask society to accept that starting work at 11am is fine.
But I'm close to forty and it FUCKING PISSES ME OFF how seemingly everyone minimizes and deflects my concerns and observations about my own body. I function best when I sleep eight hours beginning at 2-4am. A consistent early schedule, plus daily exhausting exercise, minus artificial light changes nothing about my sleep preferences. Two plus two does not equal five.
I've personally found that dark hours are more productive for mental tasks like programming. AFAICT not because of secondary factors like quietness or people being around, but simply that bright light undermines my ability to concentrate. After loading a problem into one's head, and getting "in the zone", one is supposed to interrupt what they're doing to go to bed at a "reasonable hour" to live up to someone else's expectations of what a productive person should look like? Give me a break.
The times I've driven across the country car camping, I've naturally fallen into waking up much earlier. And I'd much rather do physical tasks when it's light. But consciousness is not a scalar, and so it's inappropriate to extrapolate these patterns as indicative of some "true natural cycle" that's being distorted.
This makes no sense. All worms get eaten randomly because all worms have to surface at the same time. Earliness and lateness don't change the chance you will be eaten by the early birds. But the original phrase is true that the early bird gets the worm because it shows up in the window the worms are all surfacing and the late bird misses the window and goes hungry. Leave the original phrase intact and maybe ditch the added second part.
The truth of the whole matter is that we're not birds, but distinct creatures who live technological lives because of our lazy ancestors who looked for better ways rather than just competing to do the straightforward thing first. If you can find some way to stuff that into a tight phrase, please do!
It's more like the Balmer's peak effect: the brain is so numb that it can't lose the concentration.
I wasn't talking about running on fumes at 2am to pounding pounding pounding techno music. I'll have days where I do not feel fully awake until it starts to gets dark. Given many mammals are nocturnal, I would presume there's some bona fide physiological reason for this rather than a deficiency of something else.
At any rate, there's a huge difference in stating advice in a personal-constructive way (for instance, I'm fully aware I presently need to detox caffeine cold turkey, and am waiting for the opportunity to do so), and pushing paternalistic "one size fits all" social mores whereby people on later schedules are assumed to just not be taking responsibility for themselves.
Unfortunately, my non-normal sleep not only doesn't qualify me for any subsidized treatments, recognized disorders, non-discrimination statutes, or not even sympathy from most people.
Car camping is a little different, with electricity it's much easier to eat in the dark and stay up late partying.
Sleep cycles exist and aren’t innate. Your engrained behavior or schedule is something that sets your cycle, but is changeable. Based on what you’re saying, it sounds like from time to time you need to wake up early, and you do so by rolling back bedtime or compressing by losing sleep. (By accident or design) Yup — doing that will make you feel like crap.
You need to roll forward, not back. You can take a long weekend and roll your sleep schedule forward 6-10 hours at a time and sleep from 9P-5A without much “suboptimality”. There is lots of research about this in industrial and military contexts... “rolling back” your schedule is unhealthy and increases accident rates in workplace situations substantially.
As someone who had similar habits, I’d respectfully suggest that you consider changing it. Living your life out of cycle with the world is bad for you... you experience more stress as a result. It made a measurable positive medical impact on me.
Studies of chronotype consistently show a near-normal distribution skewed toward later hours. This is partly heritable. Genetic studies have found markers for chronotype near genes known to affect circadian rhythm.
Delayed sleep phase disorder may be a distinct condition or just the tail of the chronotype distribution. Either way, it exists. It usually responds to treatment, but relapse rates are over 90%. The world isn't asleep by 9:00 every night. Even a day in bed sick can cause a relapse.
"Rolling forward" may increase the risk of non-24-hour sleep disorder in people who have DSPD.
How do you know this? Not trying to be snarky, I'm just wondering if you have any evidence for this claim.
I expect that there is variation within the general population with regards to body clocks.
In a free society without these anti-discrimination laws, you could still find an employer that offers terms of employment that bars them from doing these things. The question is whether you're willing to tolerate other people choosing differently, and yea I guess some people like limiting other people's choices when they find them ideologically repulsive. I contend that people are only harming their society by rejecting freedom.
That's why we were much more free when we had company towns with company stores and company scrip and when attempts to unionize were countered by well-trained private police.
Thousands of people die in the US every day. The most important factor for reducing the death rate is economic development.
Productivity, wages and life expectancy were rising much faster in the late 19th century, when the right to freely contract was not violated, than today, when we have hundreds of thousands of regulations instituted by nanny-states telling us what and we cannot do with other consenting adults.
Occupational licensing alone costs the economy over $184 billion a year by some estimates:
And what is all this centralization and Big Brother control getting us? We have a highly regulated medical system, largely subsidized at the expense of the taxpayer, and captured by highly regulated opioid-manufacturing pharmaceutical giants pushing opioids to the vulnerable, through licensed doctors, and creating the worst opioid epidemic in history:
>>That's why we were much more free when we had company towns with company stores and company scrip
In defense of the company town:
>>when attempts to unionize were countered by well-trained private police.
No, attempts to blockade company premises were countered by well-trained private police. Do you know what strikers did to "scabs" who crossed to picket lines? Replacement workers needed hired protection, so that their contract freedom wouldn't be violated.
Don't forget not murdering people, please. I think it's very important not to murder people.
You're not going to get anywhere being so close-minded and prejudicial.
>>you think that people actually are capable of understanding the terms they are about to agree in any non-trivial case
I think a court of law should decide whether a person provided informed consent to a contract. A jury, with time to deliberate on the specific circumstances of a case, and resorting to a large body of legal precedents that constitutes common law, is better positioned to issue a just decision than any other body that I can think of.
I do not think these matters should be dealt with by populist legislation that makes blanket judgments about a huge number of diverse contracts between a diverse array of private individuals.
Morning was when I was forced to wake up to go to school, it was when I’d have water thrown at me if I slept in on the weekends, it was when I’d have to get up early to help my father with the boat.
At night time, I was left alone. And night time still brings me comfort. I suspect morning people had more positive morning-related experiences than I did during childhood.
Keep in mind that your circadian clock changes with different life stages. Teenagers have been shown to have circadian rhythms that run a few hours later than that of adults.
One example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2820578/
I don't drink any coffee and have a lifestyle very similar to OP's, and usually can't fall asleep before 2am. It strikes me as improbable that people with similar lifestyles would have different sleeping habits. However, some of us may have developed these habits for the very reasons you mention; I for one had a terrible time at school.
It's pretty tragic, imo, and it's one of the biggest reasons I want opening hours to shift later.
Large-scale genetic studies have found markers associated with self-reported "morningness". At least some of these markers are near genes known to affect circadian rhythms.
Observational studies control factors like caffeine intake and light exposure.
In my experience, it has to do with routine and much nothing else. If I force myself sleep everyday at 10:00 PM and wake up at 5:30 sharp, I find in about a week that my sharpest time is the hours after I wake up and before my kids get out of bed.
When I have the luxury of choice, I stay awake and I find that I fall into focus post 11:00 PM when all is quiet and that deadline a couple of days ahead starts bugging me.
With the abundance of electric lighting etc., everyone can be a bit lazy and go a couple of hours later than their normal cycle. But, if you actually were a night-owl, you’d be basically unable to force yourself to sleep at 10pm - at least, not until you become sleep-deprived enough (and not even then sometimes).
This is one of the biggest problems people with actually delayed circadian rhythms have - people with normal rhythms (innocently, but incorrectly) believing that their experience means that it’s just a preference and routine/discipline issue for everyone.
It's not uncommon to not even be able to force yourself to sleep early, however. I've only ever managed to do that through severe sleed deprivation.
For example, if I have a week when I have to wake up at 7 each morning I will only begin to fall asleep around 22 around Thursday/Friday. Up until that I've just fought my natural cycle: I can not force myself to fall asleep but I can force myself to get up early. So, I get less and less sleep until I practically fall asleep sitting. Now, if I continued the 22-07 rhythm I'd eventually stop being a zombie and become productive again (done that, too), but as soon as I finally have the luxury of choice again I'm very soon back at going to sleep after midnight, on the next day or so at the latest.
This is insane to me. I've drank a lot of coffee before (6+ cups per day), but if I ever drink caffeine past 2PM I don't sleep until after 2AM. Have you experimented with your caffeine intake? I highly suggest it. Once I found the correct dose (1-2 cups before 10am, no more til the next day) I've found myself to feel much, much better.
Now you could say my rhythm is "late" exactly because of the coffee.
But I only started drinking coffee towards the mid-20's. I didn't drink a drop until I was 20. But I remember staying up similarly till 24-02 as a teenager (when school mornings allowed that), and I remember vacation season when I was 10-12 years old (didn't have bedtime during holidays), and I happily stayed up way past midnight each day, both during the summer (longer days) and Christmas time (shorter days).
In my experience, coffee doesn't really play a part in my sleep. Thus, while coffee does keep some people up it's not a universal rule.
I mostly only ever drink good coffee which means I generally only drink coffee at home which is where I can make good coffee.
Usually I drink one pot (which is 10 cups on the coffee maker's scale but which comes down to 5 mugs) throughout a single day. But, it varies. For example, today, only two mugs now that I counted.
Still not great, but a 12 hour half life would likely mean no one would start drinking coffee because you’d never be able to sleep while building up a tolerance.
Edit: I would add that being high on caffeine doesn't necessarily mean I have trouble falling asleep.
I don’t really notice being more alert with caffeine, and drinking coffee seems to just be out of habit mostly.
If I drink too much I notice my heart beating a bit faster and a slight anxiety feeling.
I generally drink two cups a day
Why not find out? It would be awful if you went your whole life consuming something that didn't do what you that it was.
I'm about the same. I frequently drink 4-5 double shots of espresso when my little one sleeps at around 11, and I head to bed an hour or two later.
Stimulants tend to calm the ADHD mind, and can stop racing thoughts that make it harder to sleep.
I have however found a really strong correlation between eating and sleepiness. If I don't eat by 8pm, I'm almost unconscious by 9pm. If I sleep then, I'll sleep until 2 then have a hard time sleeping again until 6 or so. Whereas if I eat by 8pm, I'm awake until 2am or thereabouts.
If I remember correctly, the book gives some good evidence of a potential genetic basis for chronotypes, although not to the level of identify particular genes.
Your case may be a bit extreme, but certainly describes me in my early 20s (not coincidentally, also the peak years of night owlism). But there are much moderate Night owl/lark situations. My kids school starts at 8a. Some in our area start at 720a. In order to reliably get my (young) children to school on time, I need to be up by 645a. This means my absolute last moment to be asleep for 8h of sleep is 1045p. No matter when I climb into bed, I have trouble managing to fall asleep by them, and I’m regularly in bed before 10p, and I have data from various fitness trackers to back this up. 1115-1130 is really the norm.
Which is a long way of saying that there are definitely people with strong, biological driven sleep preferences. Modern screens and lights can exacerbate these tendencies, but assuming that people can just “fix themselves” ignores the body of evidence.
I've tried to let them know they would be right in sleeping in longer and it's the school schedules that are wrong and perverse, from their/our perspective. And during the weekends all time in the morning is sacred: nobody can talk normally until everyone has woken up.
Take this all with a grain of salt, because my memory of the book is not infallible. It might give you a place to start researching how much of our sleep behavior is innate vs environmental as you ask. It's certainly not a new idea to sleep researchers, I bet there is an answer out there.
As for the "Why We Sleep" book. I found it well written and it is well reviewed by many, so you might be interested in it.
I managed the later and my life is amazing. I get a full 8 hours of sleep every night. The best way to explain my sleep schedule is count off 5 hours from sunset, that's about when I start to feel tired. Count off 9 hours from there, that's when I'll probably wake up.
Summer is pretty obnoxious with how late I get to sleep. Winters I can maintain an almost normal schedule.
It probably makes sense that we evolved a variety of offsets (both late sleepers and obnoxiously early risers) for our circadian cycles. It creates a natural subset of tribe members that are alert during some of the natural sleeping hours of the majority. The fact that such owls are more mentally stimulated or creative might be selecting for skills that were productive during the dark hours and furthered survival such as repairing or improving hunting weapons, baskets, and the like.
As we've outgrown most of our survival pressures, it'd make sense for those genetic minorities to be more freely distributed and for the circadian rhythms of the population at large to drift and become more mixed since it no longer matters if a majority of your "tribe" has a suboptimal rhythm.
I didn’t read all of these (and their references) in great detail, but there seems to be studies suggesting that chronotype is genetic. Some studies seem to be more reliable than others (ie as you said, some seem to rely on self reporting, but others seem to rely more on genetic testing or other things).
But this isn’t even close to my area of expertise so take with a grain of salt and read up on it yourself.
I used to sleep late for years. 2AM was average bed time for me. Sometimes even up to 4-5AM.
Then I worked to change my habits. Now I'm up by 6AM on most days and I feel more productive than ever.
I've gone through night owl phases in the past, but I always felt like it was by choice, and I had the luxury of no desk job. I guess it felt fun or something. I've also gone to bed at 9 every night when I worked at a golf course & had to be there @ 6am. When I was in a rythm, I would wake up on time every morning with no alarm. And for months after I got a different job I would still wake up at 5am even though my alarm was set for later.
So I would agree with the idea that if you rely on the alarm your doing it wrong. If you practice a consistent bed time, and get your full requirement of sleep, you will wake up naturally just from good habits, be it early or late.
Our bodies are very pliable, and can be influenced one way or another with consistent practice.
If you're saying we all have a natural 'early' or 'late' cycle, how would that even work biologically? What would determine that? Is it hardwired into the code of our DNA? Even if this is the case, you would be handed a certain natural 'cycle' from your parents. But we know that gene expression is not static. We know many gene expressions change fluidly throughout our life depending on our environment/ behavior.
So even if I was born with a proclivity to stay up late, I would still expect to be able to change that though concerted effort and practice.
They have physiological effects. Lowering of core temperature, for one.
I definitely have sympathy for people with sleep problems/ disorders. When I was in my early teens, I had horrible troubles going to sleep. I would lay in bed, sometimes hours, without being able to fall asleep. I grew out of it for whatever reason as I got older. This is interesting now that I think of it, considering the wikipedia someone posted below on chronotype, suggesting adolescents tend to prefer delayed sleep.
But the reasons adults or children have trouble with sleep are complex and difficult to identify I'm sure. I don't envy anyone with sleep problems.
Most people can shift their schedule up to an hour without too much trouble. They can also force themselves onto almost any schedule with strict habits and/or medication. That doesn't mean they adapt. One illness can wipe out months of routine.
Sleeping later is easier than sleeping earlier for most people. Bright light delays your sleep cycle.
Intuitively, it makes sense that people would have different sleep cycles. A pack of animals is more likely to survive if one is awake or sleeping lightly.
The article is suggesting there is a natural progression correlated with age, that shifts from advanced -> delayed -> back to advanced. This does not help convince me against my hypothesis that cronotype is fluid and not static.
Chronotype, sleep phase, and when people actually sleep are related but not the same.
The Wikipedia article and my other comments go into more detail about the research. I singled out delayed sleep phase in adolescence because it's been observed even in other species. It seems counterintuitive that this would be so consistent if there were no reason for it.
Sleep phase shifting with age doesn't make it infinitely pliable. You can influence libido, but the difference between 16 and 60 is mostly biological.
It just can be really hard to change it if you are not forced to do so but after some weeks you adjust. It's especially difficult to switch from late to early in my experience because constantly staying awake longer is easy (especially with all the "modern distractions") but getting out of bed too early is really a pain so you often don't do it if not forced to.
First, I decided I wanted to get up earlier and be more productive. From experience I know I need ~7 or so hours of sleep, and I want to get up between 5-6am. That means in bed no later than 10pm.
Next, set an alarm and get up. That part is simple.
IMO, working out first thing is one of the key components. I go to a gym now, but am buying things like kettlebells to do quick workouts at the house.
Finally, do it every single day. It's going to be hard if every weekend you keep sleeping until noon. This means on Saturday and Sunday, get up early and workout. I also have a social life and do adjust with life events. If I have something going on and am up until midnight on Friday night, I will set the alarm for 7am.
I should also note that I have mostly stopped drinking alcohol.
The hardest part to change was the habit of staying up late just wasting time on my phone, watching TV, or playing video games. For me it was mostly non-productive time. Even if I was productive, it was only partially productive because I had already been up all day.
Now I crave that super productive time early in the morning after working out. I'm wide awake, with no interruptions, ready to go.
There is also a bit of a psychological trick to beat procrastination baked in here. I wouldn't get up at 5am to play a video game or otherwise waste time. I pushed away from a comfortable pillow this morning, so I should make it worthwhile.
The hard part is telling yourself that you won't do any work past bed time. You have to have a hard red line. Takes a bit of discipline but it's just about 2 weeks of effort before you switch to a new habit
Why? You gave no rationale, just asserted it.
What's wrong with sleeping 2-10? Why should society accept that rush hour is acceptable?
How much of this is environmental vs innate? Even your hobbies could be argued to have a genetic component or perhaps how strongly blue light affects your rhythm.
It's unlikely it's entirely "innate" (i.e. hereditary), but it's also unlikely that it is something that is easy to change.
Ive always been in the night owl camp, however an interesting experience I have had was when I went on a full 4 day water fast. By day 2, my circadian rhythm completely reset and My 12-8 sleeping schedule became 9-5.
As soon as the fast was broken with a dinner around 7pm, I became wide awake beyond 12a rether than getting tired at 9p.
Dr satchin Panda has been researching body clocks and food and has pointed out that the ingestion of food starts the liver’s clock and kicks off bodily processes tbat start the clock. So it seems that food plays a very large environmental role in our sleep schedule.
Is this as such an interesting academic question or would you actually want to be a early-riser instead? If so, why?
I've ALWAYS considered myself a night owl. I'm still not sure I'm not. But I've spent the past year rising earlier than I'm used to, and the past 7 months rising even earlier than that due to an enforced carpool with my wife. For the first time in my working life, I HAVE to be awake at a certain time (incidentally, far earlier than I'm used to). Instead of snoozing for an hour, I bolt from bed far earlier than I want to. I go to sleep marginally earlier. But my routine is regular I'm happier. I feel better. I feel healthier. I started reading the book and am acutely interested in tuning my sleep times to make this work even better.
Maybe I've never been a night owl. Maybe I've just had horrible sleep habits. Or maybe I AM a night owl, and I'd be even better off than I can possibly imagine, if I take all of these habits and processes and move them later in the day.
But I just feel like you can't possibly know if you're a morning bird or a night owl until you're already, consistently, religiously, getting enough sleep every night, on a consistent sleep/wake schedule.
You might be a ‘night owl by preference’ and had some bad habits, but there are plenty of people who are night owls by necessity because of their circadian rhythm.
This one on its own is (for me at least) far more important than the exact time when you go to bed/ wake up. Having the steady rhythm of life gives you the feeling of control and reduces anxieties, and you'll almost certainly feel better after some time. I used to work nightshifts in the data-center for a while and I would sleep during the day and it worked for me just fine. On the other hand while in the army I was getting up really early (4.30am every morning) every day, and again it was working great for me (after some adjustment period of course). So two completely opposite schedules, but both very strict and regular over the 6+ months period, and both made me feel very energetic and healthy. However, as a student I also briefly had a job with the weirdest floating schedule where you'd one day work a morning shift, then in the afternoon next day, then a nightshift, and then you'd have a free day afterwards. That one was a disaster, I just couldn't get used to that schedule. I gained 20 kg in 6 months and felt sleepy and tired all the time. Routine is a good thing.
I've never understood the snooze button. Either it's time to get up or it's not.
Getting enough sleep is a first step, but we know most people do not -- so very few are in the great position you are to treat it as a 100% conscious choice to snooze or not to snooze.
(My snooze is also set to 5 minutes, not an hour)
I get told, especially by lots of armchair wannabe doctors here on HN that I need 8 hours of sleep but if I don't set my alarm (I actually rarely set my alarm) I often wake up in naturally in 6 hours regardless of when I go to sleep. Maybe 30% of the time I can go back to sleep, the other 70% I'm not tired.
Otherwise in relation to the topic in general I'm not 100% I want my most awake time to go to the company I work for. Is that wrong?
Nope, I completely agree with that also. I personally don't want to spend my most awake time for the company I work either.
Also just to comment on something that has been said times and times again, the 8 hour working schedule was introduced more than 150 years ago and started getting implemented 100 years ago. Its time for humanity to move on and find different systems that will allow us to work less and enjoy more of what life has to offer.
We did have the computational revolution during the 90's early 2000 and now we've reached a point where a lot of jobs have been automated and a lot more to come. Think of everything out there and how much faster its been done with the use of computers and the internet. So our productivity must have went up by tremendous amounts although the working hours didn't go down at all, they remained exactly the same.
My personal belief is we can easily bring it down to 6 hours a day and slowly slowly bring it down to 4 working days per week. Of course such thing must happen massively around the globe, given how interlinked countries are nowadays.
My understanding is that during the day (evening?), your melatonin level increases. While you sleep, it goes down. If you wake up for any reason just a few hours before your optimal sleepy time, it might be a lot harder to get back to sleep.
A lot of stuff might cause you to wake up early. Very common ones, especially in the US: GERD and sleep apnea. You end up waking up, you're not tired, but you didn't get the sleep you needed.
The last part I was told only recently and I dunno how accurate it is, but supposedly you get most of your important REM sleep in the last few hours of sleep, so there's a pretty big difference between 6 and 8 hours, even though you might wake up (for reasons such as the ones above) but not be functioning at your fullest. And while you might be functioning on par with your colleagues...maybe you'd just be a total badass if you sleep better/more...
Take all of this with a huge grain of salt :)
It wasn't energy or thought capacity either, I have always been fine with that even on 6 hours. But longer term thinking, sense of continuity and ability to remember, to think more broadly about time and my place in it were all drastically improved. Things I used to do a lot I do far less now and don't feel a need to, stimuli like video games and reddit are not nearly as appealing when I sleep longer.
I feel no different moment to moment but there are what feel like auxilliary mental capacities I didn't realise I was missing. Resistance to stimuli, temporal thinking and memory being the key ones.
I feel I can’t. So much to do...
I drink a copious amount of caffeine to keep going during the day, too. (5+ cups of coffee and sometimes an energy drink, too)
Afaik, 6 hours a day is not enough for optimal performance for most people. It is minimum where people can function with somewhat, but also one where your cognitive capabilities are affected measurably.
In other words, it kind of doesn’t matter, I’m always going to be fighting it.
It’s been that way for my entire life: coffee or tea, winter or summer, college or home, single or married. Pretty much regardless, I’m going to feel tired at 11p today and ~11:45p tomorrow and 12:30a the following day before I do a dramatic reset and start again.
I'm one of those rare people who will happily go to bed at 9 pm every night. My favorite job was when I teleworked from 6 AM - Noon. 30 hours a week, with no commute, and my choice of hours? It was heaven.
To get to work at 8am, he’d have to wake up at 6am, assuming he gets ready quickly. Then, after leaving at 5, he’d arrive home around 6:30. So all in all, about 4 hours of time to himself, assuming he didn’t work late. That’s a hell of a way to live.
I spent years looking for the "ideal" spot, and an absolutely ridiculous amount of money to obtain it, and 6 months later zoning rules changed and screwed everything up. I've just learnt to live with earplugs, but not everyone can.
More importantly, to house everyone efficiently, we need high density areas. If we must put a lot of people so close to each other, AND we agree that sleep is critical to one's health, we should treat it the same way as we deal with drinking water rules, fire safety, health code, etc. The laws should reflect and be enforced to match how important it is.
Step 1: While the existing laws and ordinance suck, they're better than nothing. Let just starts by enforcing them. No one's fundamental rights are harmed if you get in trouble for driving an 18 wheeler backward in a residential zone at 4 in the morning.
You're out of sync if you're not feeling the air around you warm up with the sun, or watching the sky above you change from black to the glimmer of dawn, or hearing the birds start to chirp with the sunrise. I've experienced all of these with hundreds of nights backpacking in the wilderness, and indeed it has been the best sleep of my life. If you've any semblance of a modern, industrial lifestyle though then you're so screwed up by the rest of your life that an alarm clock is the least of your artifical interruptions.
Indeed. Just the use of artificial light is enough to mess up with your biorhythm. It would be fair to say that "humans have been out of sync with their own biology" for several decades if not a century. And it's only getting more so.
There's a reason I don't do the "fly to X in the morning, have meeting, fly back" racket. I always have either a night train or a sleepover in a hotel, when I have to travel for workshops or hands-on work - making me get up at 4 o'clock in the morning means my employer loses at minimum half a day of productivity or more plus either night trains or hotel are cheaper than the productivity loss.
Once the majority or a popular minority start using later work/school hours or the metric system, then there will be a catalyst for change. But for those early adopters there is a significant burden of extra communication that needs to take place.
But there are various disorders where people either have unusually late or early sleep cycles that can be up to several hours different from normal.
I know there are ways to help this like meditation but it's tough to find the time and energy to learn something new when you don't get enough sleep.
I'm working my way through the book, very interesting stuff.
Occasionally, we’ll have a couple of late nights hanging out and then I have to fix it again. Holiday season like now will probably need work. Then it’s just two days.
My next endeavor will be to build a Circadian Rythm light clock that changes the ambient light in the room to naturally wake me up.
- I am thin and tall, constantly feeling cold in air-conditioned offices.
- The office lights hurt my eyes.
- I prefer music playing instead of people talking, and I do not feel bad for taking an hour long break when I feel exhausted or frustrated.
- I usually wake up around 8, so I get out the door after coffee&breakfast is done, and we get dressed with the wife. We don't leave the house before 9:30 on average.
- I also think commuting longer than a 15 minute walk/bus ride is a waste of my time.
- I am working from a laptop, so I think it should be completely acceptable to send a mail in the morning saying "I'll be working from under a warm blanket & my cat today" when there is no in-person meeting scheduled.
In my current position I'm assigned projects that get done on time and feedback is positive. Work is done, all is well. Noone cares when you start the day, just show up for the calls, which are never scheduled before 9:30 on my request.
We got a junior fired because she couldn't keep up with expectations. I think full-remote wasn't for her. She also had untreated schizophrenia, I bet that didn't help either. When you are a couple screws loose, it helps to have people around to keep you grounded. On winter days I almost exclusively work from cafes, so as to avoid winter depression.