From my amateur perspective, i think the history of how people treat others with depression may be deeply rooted in the Human flaw of, "the way I experience the sensations of existence must be how everyone else does."
I can't exactly fault the default response to be, "I don't get it. Just get off your butt and go for a jog. I always feel better when I do that."
I remember being so ignorant to depression until I experienced it myself. It's unlike anything else. Your drive to persist is just missing.
P.S. the entire lecture series this one is from is worth watching.
I can't exactly fault the default response to be, "I don't get it. Just get off your butt and go for a jog. I always feel better when I do that."
I've been living with depression for almost two decades now. I took up running a few years ago and you're right, it did make me feel good. But there was no way for me to keep it up through the Waterloo winters with mountains of snow, disgusting brown slush, and deadly black ice.
So I stopped late in the fall and restarted in the spring. I tried to keep active during the winter with an exercise bike and a rowing machine, but it's not the same. Every time I got back to the spring it felt like I was starting over.
Now, just over a year ago, I started university (at Waterloo) and the enormous challenge and stress of the workload drove exercise out of my immediate priorities. With the stress I ate more and gained weight, and stressed more over school without the calming relief of exercise.
This past summer I tried taking up running again, after exams. I ended up breaking my ankle, which is not surprising given that I was so out of shape and trying to push myself too hard over a shorter window.
Now the depression is stronger than ever. I don't know how I'm going to finish my degree.
I'm a UW grad and have the same story. Find my contact through my profile and shoot me an email if you'd like. Or try to reach out to on campus counselling services. They may very well have saved my life. and I have to say, things are very different and so much better now. It's amazing how much life can change in time.
UW grad here, I was suffering through undiagnosed depression and adult-onset ADHD. One of my biggest regrets is that I was not properly diagnosed until my thirties. GP, do follow Waterluvian's advice and seek help. Now is the time!
On the one hand, answers like this always seem to over-simplify. Oh hey just take this vitamin and the soul sucking demon that's been riding on your shoulder for years, decades, will magically go away.
On the other, I spent nearly two decades of my life suffering from this horrendous illness, and nothing has helped as much as daily magnesium does.
I take a big Magnesium pill, a men's health multivitamin and I add D in the winter. Even my sleep apnea went away, and there's no damn reason that makes any sense.
Yeah, on the one hand I'm strongly against drive-by one liners, on the other hand vitamin D cured me.
I was already taking magnesium, B6 ... everything else.
8000 to 12000IU of Vitamin D a day for four weeks weeks cured me of my suicidal ideation / depression / emotional instability / irritability.
I went to the doctor and got a prescription for antidepressants a couple of times, drove to the pharmacist and sat in the carpark in my car crying for half an hour before I drove home without getting the medication.
Vitamin D was the keystone that's made all the other supplements work way better.
Now I'm on a much lower maintenance dose, a few hundred IU a day average taken as larger random doses throughout the week.
I guess it makes sense if I think about it, I get almost no sun exposure, and when I am outside I'm covered in long sleep and pants because the sun here in Tasmania is either too low in the sky to warrant shorts and a tshirt, or it's summer and the sun here cooks my pale skin in minutes.
Your millage may vary. Vitamin D and magnesium are considered very non-toxic even at stupendously high dosages for short periods of time. And they're both fairly cheap.
Disclaimer: this does not constitute medical advice, do your own research, and all of that. I'm not insured to give nutritional advice.
Yeah, I added the vitamin D after spending most of a winter in Edinburgh. Lovely city- but it's 56 degrees north. That city will get less than 7 hours of daylight today.
I didn’t bother with a test, the symptoms, when I finally connected the dots, were indicative enough for me to give it a go.
It’s not uncommon for doctors around these parts to prescribe pharmastist depended 20,000IU gel caps, after a test of course.
Also, there was an article doing the rounds a few months back indicating we neee way more vitamin D than the current guidelines. I’ll see if I can dig it up.
One is strongly advised to measure D to get the levels of both D25 and D1,25 forms of D when one suspects D deficiency. Normally only D25 is tested, but that may miss the case of low D25 and high D1,25. This happens with some chronic infections when the body shifts D towards D1,25 to rise immune system activities. Taking D supliments then suppresses immune system. As a result one may feel better as there is less dead bacteria or viruses that the body needs to get rid of and that may cause allergic reactions and even depression. But then the underlining infection continues unchecked and long-term effects can be bad.
I'm not in any high-risk categories for asymptomatic chronic infections, so I'm not sure this is a concern.
There remains a question: should health, asymptomatic, fit / active, non-smoking, non-drinking, individuals, undergo a barrage of tests at Medicare's (public health insurer in Australia) expense?
Also, I studied nutritional medicine in a formal setting for four years, so I consider myself sufficiently qualified to make that call. Otherwise, you're probably right, it makes sense, in general, for people to have tests for nutrient deficiencies, especially if there are comorbidities.
See [1] or just search for “vitamin D immune suppression”.
I very much agree that a healthy person should not do random tests. But when there is a suspicion of deficiency, one should investigate thoroughly before taking big doses of a steroid hormone that may suppress immune system otherwise known as “Vitamin D”.
On the one hand, homoeopathy is just expensive water, so it probably can't do much harm. Except that people might substitute it for actual medicine, or other therapies, that do work.
On the other hand, placebos work, so <shrug>.
On the other-other hand (you make me wish I had three hands), vitamin deficiency is a real thing.
> On the one hand, homoeopathy is just expensive water,
No, it's not, homeopathic remedies have been recalled multiple times for having serious harmful ingredients, most often dangerous levels of things on the official ingredient list that would not be possible with the claimed dilution.
The thing to realize with homeopathy is that it claims to be made by a process that would leave only expensive water, but because of that it is not subject to the kind of controls which would provide any advance assurance that anything like the claimed process is actually used. So, effectively, homeopathy could be just about anything.
Iron / Vitamin D / and maybe Magnesium (this one is still new for me and I can't find a good way to get it. What's a good brand for this?) is always my first check for whenever I fall into a slump.
If you are depressed/whatever always check your stats if you haven't already (i.e., take a blood test, check your vitamins). Maybe it won't help, but better get that out of the way because those things can make a dramatic difference.
I'm continually amazed at how many people on a host of antidepressants never done any kind of test with their GP.
But I think it may have been discontinued or changed recently- my orders on Amazon say the ASIN that I ordered no longer exists? Regardless, "Magnesium Glycinate Lysinate Chelate" is the keywords I'm looking for when I find a new source.
I'm taking a single 100mg pill per day, though I've recently noticed the recommended dose is 200mg. shrug I guess 100 is enough for me, when combined with my other dietary intake.
I asked my GP about testing for hormonal imbalances and she said, and I quote, "Here at $HOSPITAL, we
only follow the western medical tradition.". Getting such a condescending, canned response was really disheartening, and I didn't pursue that line any further with her.
I buy quite a few things from iherb.com, their shipping from California to Tasmania is quite swift, and they sell a brand called Now Foods which seem to consistently have what I want at the best price.
Any of the magnesium glycinate, citrate, orotate, here https://www.iherb.com/c/Magnesium should be okay. You just want to avoid magnesium oxide, it's poorly absorbed and causes water retention in the guy, possibly leading to loose bowels.
Here in Australia we're lucky to have a few brands that do good magnesium gylcinate / citrate / orotate powders with cofactors - a few B vitamins, but especially B6, folate, B12.
One good way to lose yourself in this is to start with The Nutrient Bible by Henry Osiecki.
Mostly I just want what it says on the label to comply with what is in the bottle. So I'm generally not happy with "should be OK", I want "someone tested this and it actually does have this much Magnesium in it specifically".
Yeah, tricky. I think Australia generally has more rigorous regulations / standards. But maybe I'm just deluding myself.
Maybe you could import a few pounds of magnesium glycinate and have it tested, I've heard the testing isn't that expensive when you're dealing with multiple thousands of doses of a product.
I used to be extremely depressed. If you are low on a single vitamin or mineral it can mess you up.
Most of the food we eat now tends to be lower in key micronutrients. Add stress, caffeine, lack of sun, alcohol, lack of sleep and those micronutrients can get consumed or flushed out of your body fast.
Exercise can also deplete those key nutrients due to sweat.
Now I take a shotgun approach, supplement all vitamins and minerals and then begin trying to add more structure and discipline to my life to control the feeling of helplessness and chaos.
Buddy, I’m not too far away. I’ve done a lot and I’ve got a lot to share— especially if you need some encouragement. I’m in Toronto now, but happy to help. I come from the rural reaches of the province so I know it can get hard. Let me know. Happy to talk.
UW grad here. Running has really helped me maintain motivation and life outlook throughout the years. When I was at Waterloo during the winter I would switch to swimming, which while not quite as enjoyable for me as running, was still hugely beneficial. I dealt with a sprained ankle last year and had to switch back to swimming while it healed. I don't know how much you enjoy it, but if you're just inexperienced at it, it's definitely worth the effort to become better.
Therapists are also great. PM me if you ever want to talk.
Hang in there, friend. Heal that ankle properly and start at it again slowly. Add some resistance training, like dumbell weights. I have struggled with depression for almost 30 yrs now and still haven't found a "groove".
You are well on your way having found ways to manage and cope. In addition you have identified the converses, as well - the things you need to watch for.
Have you tried lifting weights, get a couple of kettlebells, watch some youtube videos, most are HIIT routines, they give you both a cardio/weight training workout. 20 mins all it takes, when I can't get to the gym, that's my go to.
I believe in you. You sound very smart, and sound like someone that can have a lot going for them. I think it’s super awesome that you can self “diagnose” your struggles. I have two points and I hope they help you gain some clarity or maybe spur some thoughts.
1. You mention the weather changing affects your jogging. What stops you from moving somewhere more south where the weather is better year round for jogging?
2. You seem to be able to self reflect which technically means you know how to “fix@ what’s going on. That’s amazing!! The fact that you can self diagnose and talk about it is leaps and bounds ahead of most people. I guess what I’m getting at is if you can self diagnose I’m willing to bet you can self heal just as easy :)
You sound super smart and I know, you know, how to get things back on track!
That's my view of it as well. I distinctly remember both states of mind: not understanding and intimately understanding. I'm not sure there's a way to bridge the gap, the ignorance and incredulous attitude I had was unassailable.
I remember it with shame but I hold onto the memory so I never forget what it's like to not understand someone else's life or perspective.
Yep; but I think is also the fault of the educational system, like nobody told me when I was young that even the worst pain I have ever felt is not one percent of how bone cancer hurts, that I have never felt an amount of confusion that compares with schizophrenia or alzheimer, an amount of apathy and disdain that compares with clinical depression, and so on.
Exactly my thoughts. Lately I've been using the intoxication metaphor because most people can relate to it. I use it by asking... "Could you explain the feeling of severe intoxication to someone who's never experienced it?" Would they truly understand?
Of course not. It's impossible.
The same is true of severe depression. Your entire state of mind is altered in a way you have very little control over. It's impossible to relate to it unless you've been there.
Along the same lines, you can't tell a depressed person to "just be positive" any more than you can tell a drunk person to "just sober up". I mean you can, and they can superficially appear to do so, but it's unsustainable in any meaningful way.
> "Could you explain the feeling of severe intoxication to someone who's never experienced it?" Would they truly understand?
Hm, good thought experiment. My first thought: foggy headed like after getting only a few hours of sleep, but actually feeling generally happy rather than grumpy.
Depression is harder. Take your groggiest, most unmotivated feeling, remove the grogginess and add incredible frustration and helplessness over the fact that you have no reason to feel that way and seemingly no influence on it.
I personally think that mental illness is the #1 challenge of western societies.
It's not just about personality disorders, mood disorders, psychosis, and other illnesses, but also milder conditions that have a very high, hidden cost and not only affect the lives of those who suffer from it, but everyone around them.
If you live in a big city, you will meet people with mental conditions and knowing how to react can make a world of difference for them and you.
Is it just me or is this site literally completely unreadable? Its font color is too similar to the background for me. Screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/KFzMuaF.jpg
Yes, the mobile web version of the website has a dark background color which makes the text extremely difficult to read. The desktop website has a white background.
In this lecture, Sapolsky talks briefly about the genetic component but at a super high level "good/bad" version of a gene.
Depression is a genetic disorder. It has some degree of heritability. 50% identical twins, 25% full sibling. So again we have the whole nature-nurture interaction. Have the bad gene (a serotonin one), add in major stressors and uh-oh. A 30 fold increase in the likelihood of depression at the extreme. Oh, and glucocorticoids regulate the expression of the gene.
...and despite: "According to David Hinds of 23andMe on community forums, "nearly everyone (99.97%) is getting called as CC, and there is no clear heterozygote cluster" ... "the genotype calls for rs25531 on our platform are not meaningful." Looking at OpenSNP frequency data, this seems to be universal for direct to consumer genotyping services at this stage.... "
... but went looking for this in my own data anyway, and couldn't even find the rs#.
this was a good read. I am currently myself spiraling down into depression and fighting against it. It's very interesting to try to get a grasp of what's going on and in the past year or so I learned more about brain chemistry, receptors, amines, enzymes, etc than I did during my entire school curriculum.
I call myself a self-proclaimed guineapig: I read a lot of papers, talk with my doc about different attempts of medication and things that I don't want to touch such as SSRIs and why, and self-medicate for things that don't need a prescription or are off-label useful for depression. Some things worked, but aren't sustainable because they aren't prescribable where I live.
Yet after a long time of fighting, the feeling of hopelessness is getting more and more stronger. Depression is horrible and I would give so much to turn back the clock to when I didn't feel the way I do now.
Knowing the way we are made is depressing. Too many moving parts, too much complexity, too much uncertainty, too many things can (and do) go wrong. And there's not much we can do about it. At the same time, it is quite amazing that we are sturdy enough not to fall apart the moment we are born but instead last for many years.
It was the same for me. I was scared that I would be dependent on drugs for the rest of my life. So I avoided doctor and cured myself with some kind of "psychoterapy" and change of lifestyle. When I felt really down I smoked marijuana a little but not more than once a week for the same reason.
As a programmer trying to imagine how I would construct & create depression for a simulation. I think it would make sense to have a negative state that turns "on or off" against the will, associated with unwanted thinking patterns, current life circumstances and some type of past trauma playing a big role in the illness. Anyone think of something different?
I believe past trauma is the root cause and I doubt people have depression if they haven't had some type of experience they would classify as trauma. I think one solution is defeating the trauma with after decoupling the negative thinking patterns. Another problem is I think the illness cannot be defeated in some rare circumstances. I think people get prescribed medication too often. Doctors use the diagnosis too often from my observation. Some have tried to label me with it, when I suffer from another illness "gender dysphoria" and I think that isn't right for them to do. I also think the diagnosis is too vague and should have classifications.
I believe more resources need to be put into educating people and how to approach mental health as important to physical health. When I grew up in the US, it was always about physical health and with a little sex education. Mental health might be even more important because it can prevent a person from having good physical health.
> I believe past trauma is the root cause and I doubt people have depression if they haven't had some type of experience they would classify as trauma.
I had a great childhood. Amazing parents. A good upper middle class life. Good friends. No real trauma to speak of at all.
By 12, if I'd shared with a doctor what was going on in my head they'd have slapped me with the depression label. I wasn't healthy. There was no event or trauma. This shit is genetic- I can tell which relatives on my Mom's side have the demon riding on their shoulders. They, like me, were born with it. I'm sure they can see it on me too.
Trauma can indeed trigger it, but there are a lot of other ways. Don't presume that just because someone suffers from depression that they have been traumatized, nor that someone who hasn't been traumatized can't suffer from depression.
I got very depressed because I actually had undiagnosed Aspergers.
This caused me to get bullied, have problems in school which then turned into depression later. People with Aspergers are incredibly sensitive and blind to emotions making them easy targets.
The root cause for me was the Aspergers. What tipped me over the edge was not knowing I was different and being put into a school environment not suited for someone with all the sensitivities associated with Aspergers.
Yes bad things happened to me that made be depressed, but there was more going on.
I thought this much was obvious; the idea that one can necessarily simply remember trauma was banished very early in the fields of psychology and psychoanalysis. It's a little disappointing to see that people continually underestimate the power of the unconscious.
The idea that people can't remember trauma but that it still affects them, and what we really need to do is to uncover those repressed memories has caused immense harm.
That was my point, but other commenters seemed to be saying that if you can't remember trauma then you must never have been traumatised, which is a false thing to say.
While this study did find a correlation (unsurprisingly) between depression and childhood trauma. It also found that 1 in 4 sufferers had experienced none at all.
Are you suggesting a staggering 25% of depression sufferers have repressed memories? If so, I'd like to point out that there is no scientific consensus that it even exists:
The existence of repressed memory recovery has not been accepted by mainstream psychology, nor unequivocally proven to exist, and some experts in the field of human memory feel that no credible scientific support exists for the notions of repressed/recovered memories
Even if the critique suggests "the memories may be false or distorted" the essence still holds properties in how the person has been modified by it. I would still consider the person suffering from trauma associated to it. Trauma from misinterpretation is just as real in comparison to trauma from an event that did in fact happen. Both may result in a person being altered negatively.
I'm not suggesting "the memories may be false or distorted" and I agree with your sentiment expressed above.
What I'm saying is that your theory - "I believe past trauma is the root cause and I doubt people have depression if they haven't had some type of experience they would classify as trauma" was proven false in the study I cited.
It found that one in four depression sufferers had no childhood trauma to speak of.
Your (apparent?) explanation for this - that 1 in 4 depression suffers have simply suppressed their trauma memories - has no scientific basis.
It all gives the appearance that you're projecting your own personal experience without providing evidence.
The study you referenced had the critique I wrote my reply towards.
I don't consider the study proving anything false.
If a person has no childhood trauma to speak of, it can be instilled in the subconscious and they're unable to process it. Psychology is built upon theories with little scientific basis of replicating the assertions. Observation is really all of psychology studies.
Simply, it's difficult or even impossible to provide evidence around problems surrounding the psych by what you're asking. Nobody can assert with science to how conscience is even real.
(to be clear, I'm no more qualified than you, probably less, I'm just a computer technician speculating about how the brain works;)
I always felt like trying to fit my feelings into a logical model that had to do with other feelings was a losing game. As far as I can tell, how healthy I am in other ways matters more to my feelings than anything else; when I'm doing badly, little bad things seem huge; when I'm depressed, it feels like I've always been depressed. When I'm doing well? the opposite is true. Feelings just... they aren't logic. they don't seem to operate under the rules of logic.
I guess I think of bad feelings like any other kind of difficult to pinpoint bodily pain... something is wrong with me, but the thing that is wrong is often not the thing that hurts.
I personally think there's way too much stigma associated with drugs; I mean, for me, fitness levels have a lot to do with mood, and goddamn, it's hard to get myself to work out when I'm depressed, so I can get in this sort of negative feedback loop. For me? short term antidepressent use is hugely useful for getting out of those negative loops. And really? I don't see a problem with long term medication use, if it's safe and if it helps.
I think our health and feelings of happiness or sadness are fundamentally outside of our control is reality. Since, I can argue people have no real control in life from deductive reasoning.
I assume nature with what's described as evolution, is similar to how us humans build our emotional state. I observe human characteristics such as greed, greatly theorized as a survival trait and speculate how it alters everything else depending on the individual. Basically everything to me is similar to code and where logic lives to be discovered.
The stigma with drugs from what I believe is if you require it to function forever. Honestly I have nothing against drugs if the person taking them is educated.
> I guess I think of bad feelings like any other kind of difficult to pinpoint bodily pain... something is wrong with me, but the thing that is wrong is often not the thing that hurts.
There are cases where environment is the cause of your pain, if your family desintegrate and all your good times are not coming back it will hurt you and may cause depression.
Also subtle factors in how you think and feel about things and your location, a single change of place can restore things in you that you couldn't really alter on your own previously.
>I believe past trauma is the root cause and I doubt people have depression if they haven't had some type of experience they would classify as trauma.
Hm, what do you mean by trauma? I strongly disagreed with this statement, but feel less strongly after writing and considering it more. Maybe the influences that I think vageuly underlie or trigger my existential depression is others would call trauma?
> Maybe the influences that I think vageuly underlie or trigger my existential depression is others would call trauma?
I think that may possibly be the case of the trauma. Subconsciously something is there and it's deeply personal per individual with how one's life played out.
"You've been in therapy for some time now, and have started to be able to realize what is a rational fear and what is not. You feel like you might be simply being insecure ..."
I think this is the gist of the entire ordeal of depression. You simply mature up and grow out of it in time.
I had the good fortune to watch the lectures some years ago and the helped my understanding greatly. Just would like to share this and encourage everyone to take a close look.
I can't exactly fault the default response to be, "I don't get it. Just get off your butt and go for a jog. I always feel better when I do that."
I remember being so ignorant to depression until I experienced it myself. It's unlike anything else. Your drive to persist is just missing.
P.S. the entire lecture series this one is from is worth watching.