Hacker News new | comments | show | ask | jobs | submit login
Google Engineering Management Mistakes (docs.google.com)
296 points by auxbuss 2516 days ago | hide | past | web | 135 comments | favorite



Wow, this is one of the coolest things HN has found in awhile.

It's remarkable how, time and time again, formal incentive compensation schemes are shown to cause more harm than benefit. I started paying attention when Joel Spolsky called it out 6-7 years ago, and then read Peopleware (an excellent book) which reiterates the point (and calls it "teamicide"), and then read the Harvard Business Review article ("Why Incentive Plans Cannot Work").

Why would a company as smart as Google forge ahead with schemes like this in the face of all available evidence that it's a bad idea?



One of my coworkers has one of those Ship It awards. It's... pretty sad.


Regarding the Incentive system actively promotes bad behavior on slide 7, Dan Pink gave a very interesting talk on Motivation at TED — with surprising results:

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html


TED appears to be down. Here's the same (I think) video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y



Watching that was a very worthwhile 10 minutes: an interesting set of ideas, brilliantly presented.


Incentives are one of those things that people just want to be true (like e.g. "one true soul mate") and do everything they can to reject any and all evidence that contradicts this belief.


While we're quoting Joel Spolsky: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Ladder.html

I wonder if Fog Creek has had the similar frustrations with engineering ladders that Piaw mentions. Although given the distinct difference in company size, it might not be a valid comparison.


Watch "The Wire"; it is a whole show about incentive structures.


This presentation comes out against some specific incentives, but doesn't state a judgment on formal incentive schemes in general. From what I've heard, these schemes are quite alive and well at Google. So perhaps they have found a way to make them work, or perhaps they just take them for granted at this point.

In either case, there must be something about the incentive structure that is serving Google well.


Depends on how you feel about the recent spate of defections to smaller companies.


Most likely because they didn't bother to actually look at the available evidence.


> Why would a company as smart as Google forge ahead with schemes like this in the face of all available evidence that it's a bad idea?

My guess: because it can be algorithmized.


But clearly not well


"Stack ranking system was harmful:"

whoa! I didn't know Google practiced stack ranking. There is a lot of unnecessary stress generated at Microsoft due to this[1]. I would have thought the Google folks would be wise enough to avoid it.

As for ".... SVP response: “If you wanted to get promoted for these non-engineering tasks, move into management"

heh! How big company ish is that? The best way to join Google these days seems to be as part of an acquired startup. Then you are at worst running out any vesting period while enjoying those free massages.

[1] http://minimsft.blogspot.com/2005/07/microsoft-stack-ranking...


I had to look up "stack ranking" just now, so, for the benefit of the class:

Stack ranking means that if you have a group of 20 people, during each performance review cycle the group manager is expected to rank them from 1 to 20, and the company distributes bonuses and promotions accordingly.

That just seems completely asinine.


"Stack ranking means that if you have a group of 20 people, during each performance review cycle the group manager is expected to rank them from 1 to 20, and the company distributes bonuses and promotions accordingly.

That just seems completely asinine."

Worse, there is often an associated ideal distribution ("the curve") with fixed ratios for "exceeds expectations", "below expectations" and so on and managers are under pressure to conform. If you have an all superstar team, a certain number must still be in the bottom most bucket, and the bottommost 5-10 % is often let go or put on a watchlist (I am not saying this is how Google does it).

Over a few years this gets very political as you can imagine. The (bad) middle managers love this part of their jobs.


I was in a place that decided to give out bonuses to my team (consisting of 3 members and a leader) in the following way:

1. Allocate fixed amount to give out per team

2. Have team leader's manager determine how that pie would be shared between team leader and us 3 team members.

3. NOT have 360° feedback

4. Incorporate team leader feedback on team's performance into this decision

I'm not sure what type of HR schmuck thought up that scheme. About a month after 'self evaluation', we were called into 1-1 meetings with the TL, who told us each separately how disappointing our performance had been, and the usual spiel about 'taking initiative' and 'stepping up' and 'moving to the next level'.

Shortly after that we found out the three of us had received 0% each of the pie allotted to our team as a bonus. And the team leader had waltzed away with ALL of it.

That's right: an allegedly disappointing team who'd failed to achieve any of its goals was compensated for by a super-human team leader who had somehow magically overcome all our shortcomings to over-achieve so much, that even the organisation-wide "curve" was left by the wayside to reward such awesomeness.


This kind of nonsense is why I became a consultant. I get my bonus every day now and I don't have to do any go through the "performance review theater" anymore. If they really have a problem with me then don't renew my contract. It's simple and honest, just how I like it.


It sounds like your manager actually suffered a bout of insanity or was a thief.


I'm guessing thief. It's where the incentives lead.


I left my job at BigCo because I was part of a 8 person team where the manager was supposed to create a normal distribution out of scores from 1-5. I was one of two employees recognized for doing an excellent job, but my manager could rate just one of us as "excellent".

During a performance review, my manager talked for an hour about how much I'm contributing and what an amazing job I do. Then he ranked me as average. I was extremely disappointed because I wanted the awesome job I do to get more official recognition.

I started searching for a new job almost immediately and left shortly after.

So yes, review systems considered harmful.


This is actually how almost every large company works. Scale is 1 to 5, average is a 3, 2 is exceeds expectations, "Nobody ever gets a 1."

The problem is that the grading is done on a curve, so that for every 2 given out, someone else must get a 4. If you get a 4, you are considered below expectations, and must be put on a "personal improvement plan," or managed out of the team.

Because of this pressure, nobody wants to give out anything other than a 3. So they resort to stupid tricks like giving out "high 3s" or "low 3s" instead of 2s or 4s.

The desire to model employee performance with data and manage out the bottom 10% has a crushing effect on the morale of any small technically focused team.


Even smaller companies can work this way. During last year's review, my manager (who is also a lead developer--heck, even the VP of engineering writes code on a weekly basis) told me that he wanted to score me higher, but some people frowned on such things because "people really can't be that good."

It doesn't bother me much because our department is fairly sane in how they deal with reviews, and management in general.


Agree. I work for a small company who occasionally like to act like a big company; we have a similar system which used to be hooked up to bonuses, but they eventually removed those. The explanation was pretty obtuse, but reading between the lines there were some employees getting bonuses even though they should objectively have been 4s or 5s on that scale - because of course everyone got 2 or 3 regardless.


I left a BigCo job for the same reason.

Interestingly enough, I learned in my HR class just last night that stacked systems are disastrous. Any modern HR dept. should not be using them.


Not only is it very political, but it forces some baffling decision making.

Assume I have a team of 10 in which 5 are wonderful contributors, and that, due to stack ranking practices, only the top 1/3 of my team gets consideration for big bonuses and promotions. Here, I'm incentivized to immediately hire 5 warm bodies, thus ballooning my team to 15, so that the top 1/3 get the recognition they deserve.

It's actually rational to do that if I'm concerned that those 5 excellent performers will leave without that recognition. The incentives that appear due to stack ranking are really, really bizarre.


Hiring is difficult and time consuming, what you really want is a re-org (which are all too frequent at big software dev. corporations).


When I was a team leader, I was asked to rate my team members on a curve. Management stressed that this was important, and that we all had to conform.

I told my boss I had no intention of destroying my team, and handed out ratings and reviews as they were deserved.

Never heard this particular line from Management again.


It does seem asinine. Although frankly I can't think of many ways that seem much better. Do you always just give everyone on your team the exact same bonus?


That's one option. Not giving bonuses at all is another option. Tying incentive comp to business events (recruitment, customer acquisition, an A/B test and minor feature change that produces a 1% uplift, etc) is another option. Anything has to be better than going out of your way to stratify an otherwise well-functioning team.


I just have a hard time believing incentives don't work. For example, if I lost all of my stock options today and was told I'd never get another raise or bonus, except CoL, I'd quit on the spot.

In fact I'd argue, if there were no financial incentives, most HNers wouldn't do startups. I know everyone likes to say they do it to change the world and the passion of something or other. But in reality I've yet to see many founders take a $50k salary only (but keeping voting power) despite the profits of the company.


Incentives work great. Incentives aren't the problem. The basket of formal performance-driven compensation programs colloquially referred to as "incentive pay" are the problem. Incentive pay includes:

* Formal periodic performance reviews

* Scheduled bonuses based on "job performance"

* Ranking of employees (this is the old GE performance management paradigm; "up or out!")


Losing all of your stock options or having something else taken away is not a negative case for incentives, it's an example of a disincentive, which also has an effect. They aren't the same thing, and you can tell because you don't know how well you'd be working if you never had the options in the first place (and hadn't been denied them or otherwise been treated unfairly).

One of the reasons you don't see many founders take a $50k/yr salary is that very few of them are truly confident of success. I once heard an aphorism, "don't trust a founder who won't put their own money into the company." It's a little pointed and unrealistic, but you get the idea. In an industry driven by a mythology of becoming the next big thing (parallels to the equally one-in-a-million mindset in the music industry), no founder can afford, professionally and with regard to reputation, to treat themselves as anything but a foregone success, and that attitude requires "competitive compensation." This means they want to be paid as much as other unsure founders.

The "low-salary superboss" is a product of already-successful companies.


Well I think I'd also turn down most jobs that said, "We'll pay $150k/year with no further financial incentives ever". Unless my goal was simply to to do as little work as humanly possible, yet still collect a check, I'd be hardpressed to work there. And if I did, despite non-financial that exist in the world, I really don't think you could get me to work more than 40 hours per week.


Are you really saying that you wouldn't work more than 40 hrs per week for < $150k. It's the money that makes you put in extra hours?

The thing is that there's a huge number of talented people out there who will put in extra hours because the work is interesting, or they feel that if they don't, they're letting the team down.

In fact, the really really talented developers seem to care less about money (after a nice base-line), and more about the work / team. Or, other obsessive (and useful) qualities make them unable to say no to work, etc.

So, who would a company prefer to hire? Obviously, the qualified person who would work for free, because it's their passion.

Interestingly, $150k/yr is a lot more than I've ever made, but that's neither here nor there.


Are you really saying that you wouldn't work more than 40 hrs per week for < $150k.

If there were no other financial incentives, absolutely. I have no problem saying, "No" to work. I bust my butt doing 100 hour weeks so that you can ship Mario Halo World and make $500M opening weekend, I deserve to be compensated. Even if I love the work, I can spend that 60 hours per week that you're not paying me to work on something else I love.

It's one thing to be RMS and working on your lifes passion for free. It's another thing to, as an employer, expect to ask someone to forego tucking their son in for the next 6 months, because you need to make $200M, but will not compensate them at all. I don't doubt there's people that will volunteer to do it out of some sense of passion or loyalty, but it won't be me.

I know what I'm worth.


And regarding $150k/year, saw your profile and you look young (although maybe you're not). Like it or not, you'll make more as you get more experience. Maybe that's reverse ageism, I don't know, but seems to be a fact of life, even in software, which is more meritocratic than most industries.

Also it appears you do game development. Unless you become a rockstar or do the next Angry Birds as a solo dev, you'll tend to get paid less than the industry average -- at least that's how it has been historically.


Your observations re: gamedev are correct.

Actually, I can't really stand working for other people, so I'm doing a startup. Now I work almost all the time I'm awake, and I make 0 dollars. Hmm.

So, what city do you live in? Does your employer have <10, <100, <1000, <10k, or 10k+ employees? Or, are you a contractor?

EDIT> I should point out that the highest-paying jobs I've seen advertised for non-management devs in Toronto are around 100k. Architects are like 120k. Then again, a detached house in town, near a subway stop is under 400k.


I live and work out of two houses and offices. One in Seattle and one in SF. Less than 100 people. I used to be a consultant... if you've never done it I recommend all devs to spend some time doing it.

The listed salaries in ads are just for where to start negotiations at :-)

In any case, if your start up does well, but not so well that you can retire like Brin & Page (exit w/ say $3-5M) you'll find that higher paying offers tend to come a fair bit easier.

I couldn't tell from your page (or I just missed it), what does your start up do?


> I couldn't tell from your page (or I just missed it), what does your start up do?

I'm developing an online, subscription-based game for PC and Mac.

> I used to be a consultant... if you've never done it I recommend all devs to spend some time doing it.

The problem I see with consulting is that to be really good, you need to care more about the client's project than your own stuff (or at least act that way). This is a problem for me, since (non-retirement) money is not a significant motivator.

This is also true of customers, of course, but there's a bit more leeway and leverage there.

> The listed salaries in ads are just for where to start negotiations at :-)

Very true.

> In any case, if your start up does well, but not so well that you can retire like Brin & Page (exit w/ say $3-5M) you'll find that higher paying offers tend to come a fair bit easier.

Interesting. When I reach that range, I won't be accepting offers -- I'll semi-retire. I'd probably work at building a personal submarine like Nautilus UC3 ($200k), doing AI research, building robots and making art.

You mention SF and Seattle. For comparison, in Toronto, you can get a beautiful house in an elite uptown neighbourhood on the subway line, starting at around $650k. If you move to the 'burbs, the size/price ratio just improves (but why would you want to live in the 'burbs :)


It's not only about the money, but it's still about money. No matter what the company's 'mission', anything that changes the distribution of equity or profits will bring out that truth awfully quick.


An insight gleaned from Donna Meadows is that profit is not the purpose of a company's existence. Profit is merely survival, it's what facilitates the company staying "in the game".

Her view is that the purpose of companies is to grow.


That observation was made by Peter Drucker, fairly soon after WW2. Profit is the cost of continuing to do business; it's necessary to ensure that you are allocating your efforts efficiently, but is not the intrinsic raison d'etre of a corporation.

His view was that the purpose of companies was to serve a social purpose. The purpose of Google is so that people can find information. The purpose of Microsoft is so that people can use their computers. The purpose of Merck is to keep people healthy.

I like this viewpoint a whole lot better than Milton Friedman's corruption ("the purpose of a corporation is to increase shareholder value"), where an abstract measuring stick necessary to ensure corporate accountability somehow became the whole principle that society was organized around.


Thanks for correcting me.


In certain companies, bonuses are dependent on three factors: company success, team success, and individual success, based on targets agreed upon at a certain point in time.

To me, that seems a lot more fair than implicitly believing all members of a team are of equal levels of skill, productivity, etc.


I work in a company like that - and the system sucks - especially now in downturn.

Here's why: 1. Some managers (of sub-par mind you) teams scored whole their team as "excelent" - as to compensate for lack of company success. Then when the MGMT figured that out - they implemented ratio - thus again hitting the team with many excelent overachievers, etc... 2. Myself personally am often transfered from f-ed up project to a f-ed up project (since I have the ability to mostly turn them around or help to mitigate the damage) thus ensuring that I will never be compensated for the level of effort necessary to turn around a f-up.

This system just makes me sick - because I want to compete but I don't want for my collegues to suffer because of it - currently it just encourages teamicide. So this kind of scheme appears to demotivate over-achievers more than it motivates under-achievers.


It is obviously true that people should be compensated for company, team, and individual success.

It does not follow that the way to do that is a rigid, formal cycle of performance reviews and ranking.


No, of course not. I did not mean to imply that.


I once worked at company that employed a lot of hourly wage type people. One exec wanted to stack rank each group of wage employees each month and fire the bottom 25%. I tried to explain to him the negative morale effect that would lead to lower performance across the board, the fact any employes who were decent would just leave on their own, and there is a significant training cost for each new employee that he was ignoring. But nope, he wanted me to write the system anyway.

Thankfully someone higher up with a bit of sense got wind of the plan and nixed it. It wasn't too much later that the original exec was canned.


This is what Jack Welch did at GE in the 80s, firing 10% of management every year. It's not universally derided as an HR/Management policy. I mean, it's pretty much the entire premise of the TV show "The Apprentice," no?

Pro: http://www.cogmap.com/blog/2009/11/12/force-ranking-to-fire-...

Con: http://www.missionmindedmanagement.com/where-jack-welch-got-...


It bears mentioning that the long view of GE's history is becoming increasingly unkind to Jack Welch. He's starting to look pretty bad and short sighted in many respects. His legend has already been cemented, though, so I doubt anyone will care.


>firing 10% of management every year

that is completely different. All stack ranking mentioned so far was about employees. Firing 10% of management every year have real potential to improve morale.


I had a lot of respect for GE until not that long ago, but I think that after things like these (http://accounting.smartpros.com/x67325.xml) we shouldn't take this company very seriously. They're just crooks like the rest of Wall Street.


Maybe I missed it, but your 'pro' article doesn't link to the study that is referenced. I would like to see what kind of work the people were doing who were tossed. For example, in my experience most companies have way too many middle management. In that scenario it makes sense to cut no matter what so go ahead and use some performance metric (and definitely don't wait a year to do it).

Then you have rank and file employees are are actually doing the work. Even in a relatively low skill position the company might have to put in 1-2 months of training to have an employee functioning. Unless the employee is completely horrible (in which case they should be fired anyway, and if this keeps happening hiring practices should be analyzed), from a cost standpoint it makes more sense to coach them to do better rather than remove them.

In higher skill positions it makes even less sense to just cut the bottom unless the bottom is doing very poorly. In that case they should have been cut prior to ranking. Where I work now we don't expect someone to get fully up to speed until they have been in our codebase for 3-6 months. If we constantly ranked, fired, and hired again we would only have a few good people at the top end doing all of the work and simply churning money on the bottom end. We might find a superstar who displaces the top, but does that mean you want to fire your previous tops? They were doing fine, and presumably still are, until the superstar showed up.

Again, I have no problem with ranking people or with firing people for poor performance. The problem is picking an arbitrary line and firing people who fall below it even if their raw performance is acceptable.


Stack ranking means just that: the employees are ranked. What the company does with the ranking can vary. The uses of a stack rank can be beneficial or harmful.

At one company where I worked, the rank was used to identify employees for promotion. If an employee consistently ranks above employees at a higher level, then the employee should probably be promoted.

The company also merged the ranks for smaller groups into groups of one hundred or more. This resulted in more consistent reviews and promotions across the company.

I consider these uses of stack rank to be beneficial.

The company also did something harmful with the stack rank. The company graded on a curve and used the stack rank for the grading. Even if everybody in a pool is doing great work, somebody needs to be given a bad review.


The problem with any sort of ranking sysyem is that skill sets, jobs, projects, and roles are not freely fungible or normalizable. You're forced to make some totally absurd comparisons for the sake of fitting whatever the mold may be. We're not talking apples to oranges here; we're talking apples to watermelons.


In the stack rank meetings that I was involved with, we ranked employees in the order that we would hire them to a new team. This ranking considered several things: productivity, ability to drive tasks to completion, quality of code, willingness to help others, personality and more. Although it was like comparing apples to oranges, there was usually a consensus on the ranking.

A useful aspect of this ranking is that it's a different perspective from the written employee review. The review measured people against goals agreed to at the beginning of the review period. The stack ranking criteria considered more of a person's contribution. An employee could suck at meeting goals, but come out high in the stack ranking because of other things the employee did.


I like the idea of a consensus assessment. Sometimes a person's value to the team is less quantifiable on paper than someone else's, but that doesn't mean it's intangible. It's usually quite tangible, and if everyone notices it (or the reverse), that's usually a good sign of the person's value-add. Not everyone is going to be the tireless codebot on the team, but that doesn't mean everyone isn't playing a critical role (Joel Spolsky obviously goes on at great lengths about this). Consensus-style reviews would probably arrive at a fair assessment of such value a lot more readily than individual writeups would.

Also, a lot of people make critical contributions that just don't get noticed by the team lead because those contributions -- moral support, culture, taking time away from one's own work to assist others -- aren't boss-facing. But if you asked his or her peers, this person would get a stellar review. In situations like these, group feedback seems pretty important.


There are many, many ways to set up a stack rank system. People that I know who have worked at both Microsoft and Google far prefer Google's system. That is not to say that they find Google's system perfect. Just significantly preferable to Microsoft's version.

As a Google employee I am not at liberty to discuss what the differences are.


That's interesting. I'm guessing these are Microsoft employees who quit before the perf review system here at Microsoft was basically changed from scratch 3 years ago?


I've heard comments from people who were at Microsoft for a long time. I don't know the specific timelines of the people involved, and so can't tell you what time period their comments specifically referred to.


The massages aren't free. They're subsidized at $20/hour.


I was thinking the same thing ('oh man, i bet a Microsoftie could have created the same deck back in the mid/late 1990s...')


"The sum of money just appeared in my bank account, but was so insulting low that I felt devalued. If a manager had just talked to me about how much my work was appreciated, it would have been better than money."

This is true at a certain threshold. Appreciation is immeasurably better than an demoralizing, insultingly-sized bonus. However on the other end, if you go above and beyond normal expectations and save or earn the company millions of dollars, a "thank you" from your boss on the company newsletter is not going to cut it.


I have, along with the relatively small teams I've worked with, saved/earned Google at least several hundred million dollars. Possibly over a billion. Certainly more than I can expect to earn over my lifetime.

What size bonus is appropriate for that?

I don't view it in those terms. I get paid reasonably well, but certainly not millions of dollars. And that's because the employment agreement I signed when I was hired is essentially an apportionment of risk. It basically says "I will give my best efforts for the company in exchange for $X/year, and in exchange, the company takes on the risk that those efforts will have zero or negative effect."

After all, I don't have to give back my salary when the I cost Google millions of dollars, which has happened on more than a few occasions. Hell, I've done virtually nothing useful since last May (I've done a whole lot, it's just that none of it has turned out to be useful).

I've played the startup game, and for the roughly 16 months that I was working on my own startup, I earned precisely $0. I worked harder then than I do now. But basically none of the risks I took paid off. That's the nature of risk: you win some, you lose some. It's not really fair when you collect huge paydays when you win and small paydays when you lose (though this seems to be the compensation scheme upon which the financial industry is founded).


I would challenge this. Let's replace your trivializing phrase "a 'thank you' from your boss on the company newsletter" with just recognition, which obviously can take many forms. We have evidence, cited in this thread, that recognition is generally more satisfying and motivating than financial rewards are (at least those produced by formal incentive plans). What evidence do you have that this effect only holds "at a certain threshold"? Or that it weakens as one's work becomes more important?

It's important to resist one's intuitions when faced with a counterintuitive finding, which this is. Most of us have been conditioned to think of "never mind the touchy-feely, show me the money" as hard-nosed realism. That it turns out not to be is immensely interesting.


I left "a certain threshold" undefined on purpose, because it varies from person to person. The point is that the reward must be meaningful to the person being rewarded, otherwise it is much worse than no reward; the person will become cynical, demoralized, and unmotivated.

The main problem is conflicting valuations of the work in question, which holds true whether the the payment is money or recognition. Who is to define how much recognition is satisfactory? Take the Microsoft "ship it" award[1] as an example of a formal recognition plan, which failed.

My evidence, like the evidence in this thread and the presentation, is just personal experience.

[1] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000070.html


My evidence, like the evidence in this thread and the presentation, is just personal experience.

On the contrary, I was referring to the work of Dan Pink and others on the science of motivation, which was mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

I don't usually discount personal experience but this is one area where the empirical findings are surprising. A pretty important one, too, considering the implications for good organizations and happy lives.


I think part of it is that if you've just saved your company a million dollars getting a bonus of a few thousand seems unfair & like your company's being greedy. Yes, I absolutely want to be recognized for the good work I do, but it would also be nice to get monetary incentives commensurate with the work I've done.


What type of award is valued is very person-dependent.

Some people thrive on non-cash awards (like medals and award ceremonies), some like recognition from above, others care more for money.

It's very easy (even expected) for a large organization to guess wrong in a particular case. So that anecdote is not really data.


Wall Street solves this problem quite efficiently! The annual bonus is really the same as the performance review, so they simply tell everyone "you did a great job this year, here are your compensation numbers."

That way, as a rank and file employee you don't really know whether your "review" was above, at, or below average. First order, because you'd have to ask your peers about their compensation, which most people consider rude (at least in the US). Second order, because the bonus is supposed to be an aggregate of your group and individual performance (plus your seniority), so it's usually impossible to find a suitable cohort for comparison.


This also reminds me of a paper I had submitted in the past. Randomly promoting people is more effective than using merit:

http://arxiv.org/abs/0907.0455


do you know of any research on randomly electing people in the government offices? I believe it would also be much more effective.


In the US we've been doing this for years.



100% confirms my fear that this is a group of incredibly smart, hyper intelligent people who don't understand that specializing in a field (like, say... Management) isn't something you can "dabble" in and do well. My experience is that most "managers" in Google (when I interviewed, I met a few Directors, Managers and Tech Leads) are 99% technically focused. Google swung the pendulum too far the other way. Engineering should be in charge of the company, but rely on Managers to do management things, not have Engineers dabble in it (with the best of intentions) I would think if Google applied the same hiring practices to hire in hyper intelligent people with a management focus and could integrate them into the teams correctly, this would be a huge win. (I haven't interviewed there since '07, so things may have changed since then)


I wouldn't spend too much time looking down your nose at Google's mistakes here, as piaw cautions that they're still a really great company to work for:

-At 1500 people, Google was more agile and less political than most 200 person startups!

- At any given size, Google was the best company in its class to work for.

- At its current size, Google is still more desirable an employer for engineers than Oracle, Cisco, Microsoft, Adobe, Apple, and many other well known names.

I think you'd find many similar stories at other software companies if you applied as focused of a lens at them.


"biggest mistake is still having a tech ladder"?

What specifically is this referring to? A separate career progression for techs vs managers? I thought that was desirable so you don't need to move your best engineers out of engineering positions to promote them. I fear I'm missing something.


If I understand correctly, it's suggesting that having formal levels, regardless of whether managers do or not, is what's undesirable.

I infer the alternative to be flat, such that there's only difference in compensation, with no difference in formal title.

Perhaps I'm biased, since I very much believe you can call me whatever you want, as long as I'm suitably paid. This function-over-form attitude is why I prefer startups.


Perhaps I'm biased, since I very much believe you can call me whatever you want, as long as I'm suitably paid. This function-over-form attitude is why I prefer startups.

Then I'm biased, too. I don't work for a start-up (100+ employees, with only seven of us doing software development), but we really don't have "career tracks." There are two management positions in our group (VP and lead engineer), so unless one of them leaves the company, no one is moving up, nor do titles change, even with raises. And this suits me perfectly fine.


It's funny how you could take "Google" out of that slide and put "Apple" in it and it would be almost word-for-word applicable. Or maybe it's not funny.

Too, I recognize that this author of this presentation spent time to make it public, and sharing this sort of information is always welcome, so moaning about the format might seem a little rich. But in the glorious tradition of the internet, I'ma gonna bitch about it anyway. I really really hate this new fad of posting these Powerpoint-style slide decks. I would always prefer to read prose, even inexpert prose, than <next> through yet another comically inept link on scribd or google docs.

Moaning off. Thanks again to the author.


Sorry, the slide deck was there as a presentation to Facebook's VP of engineering. I wasn't about to transcribe my own talk.


Like I said, I appreciate that you took the time. I was just being J. Random Internet Asshole.

(But I really do hate slide decks.)


The slide deck was part of a blog post. It's not my fault that news.ycombinator.com only linked to the slide deck and did not provide context: http://piaw.blogspot.com/2010/10/facebook-and-google.html


Very true, and the added context is really helpful. Thanks for responding civilly to my not-very-civil bitchery.


Honestly, this sounds like the problems at any largish engineering company. At least the nice thing about Google is that they're openly discussing it, and sort of scientifically at that. At other companies, you just resign yourself to politics being more than 50% of the equation, and the company slowly goes to hell in between increasingly rare and brief spurts of innovation.


I don't think Google openly discusses it. At least, certainly if there was such discussion I wasn't privvy to it. I only felt free to post these thoughts post Google.


Ah, well then same as everywhere then. :) I suspect the large proportion of very smart and/or very competitive employees might also result in more gaming of the system than elsewhere.


Curious, why does he end the presentation saying that a tech ladder is bad? Is the idea that they should have a management ladder, but all engineers are at the same level? That sounds like a recipe for disaster.


If you just want to do interesting work, an issue with career ladders is that little interesting work filters down to the people at the bottom of the ladder. This becomes a catch 22 for rookie employees. It becomes difficult to level up, because you're never working on anything that will wow your reviewers. In fact, the reward for excelling at boring but necessary tasks is often being stuck on those tasks forever. Thus begins the cycle of churn and lowering of hiring standards.


There's a very curious effect at Google that the most interesting work goes to interns. The least interesting goes to heroic senior engineers who've taken it upon themselves to clean up Google's codebase.

This is as it should be, I think. Actually, I've noticed an almost direct correlation between the quality of a Tech Lead/Manager and his willingness to do the boring stuff and pass off the interesting, challenging tasks to his subordinates.


Career ladders are wishful thinking and an easy way to undervalue contributions. They imply that professional development largely occurs along a single axis rather than multiple ones.

Who's worth more, Peter Norvig or Marissa Mayer? What about an overachieving SWE I vs an mailing-it-in SWE III?


The worst part about career ladders at Microsoft was that it put people who were great engineers but terrible, terrible managers in positions of authority, because there was only one advancement path. When I left,they were just starting to create a career ladder for individual achievers, because they had finally realized this. I don't know if it actually ever happened.


Dunno when you left, but you can go up many levels as an IC currently.


Additionally, poorly structured career ladders can to lead to "Promotion Until Incompetence", where people are repeatedly promoted until they are unable to warrant another promotion. Thus, everyone is stuck at a level of mild incompetence.


AKA "The Peter Principle."


Thanks! I could NOT remember of the name for it!


Who's worth more, Peter Norvig or Marissa Mayer?

Who's paid more? Who has the better title?

Who's worth more a very strong CTO of Google or an overachieving SWE I? Presumably with title comes responsibility befitting the title.


"Curious, why does he end the presentation saying that a tech ladder is bad?"

From the blog post which provides some context to the presentation (http://piaw.blogspot.com/2010/10/facebook-and-google.html),

"Many consider Google's #1 mistake to be having a tech ladder in the first place. I covered that topic in my post on Promotion Systems (http://piaw.blogspot.com/2010/04/promotion-systems.html) , so did not feel the need to belabor the point."

A snippet from the promotion systems post

"What if I tried to design a promotion system to piss off as many employees as possible? What characteristics would it have?

- No pleasant surprises. In other words, you can only be disappointed if you didn't get a promotion, you can't be pleasantly surprised by a promotion.

- Create unhappiness by dependence on scarce resources. In other words, gate promotions based on scarce resources so that even people who would otherwise be qualified could become disgruntled through no fault of their own.

-Eliminate accountability from people who make the promotion decisions (e.g., through a committee). That way, promotion decisions can seem arbitrary.

-Ensure that promotions are competitive races between all qualified candidates. This ensures that people who manipulate that packet in such a way as to have the best looking packets will win over people who are trying to get feedback and improve, which is supposedly the point behind all these feedback systems.

When I looked at Google's promotion system through this lens, I was very impressed. It seemed as though the system was designed to create disgruntled employees out of people who might otherwise be perfectly happy. And note that the ex-Googlers I interviewed were people who benefited from the system, as in: they were very well respected and were hence ranked highly. They were people who couldn't care less what their ranking was, yet they disliked the system anyway, purely because they thought that having a ranking system actually had a deleterious effect on the exchange of ideas."

There is a follow up post (http://piaw.blogspot.com/2010/05/promotion-systems-redux.htm...)

A snippet

"My spies at Google tell me that my essay on promotion systems drew a reaction on a Google mailing list that I didn't read even back when I was employed at Google.

I did get a few interesting responses. I won't post them here, but I'll address what a few points:

Someone.....pointed out that the real compensation at Google was much more dependent on raises, stock and bonuses, so the promotion system didn't matter. But that's not true at all! First of all, there was a level-based salary cap, and people did hit them. So at some point, you have to get promoted if you want your salary to keep going up. Bonuses were based on salaries, so those don't go up if your salary doesn't go up. Secondly, even if it was true that options and bonuses was all that mattered, then you just validated the claim that eliminating the engineering ladder wouldn't hurt productivity at all!"

I've found Piaw's posts to be very worth reading, even if you don't end up agreeing with him. Many gems on his blog.


Interesting, as historically the problem has been quite the opposite. If you go back not that far most devs simply had a flat position in the org. There were no Distiguished Engineers or even Architect titles. You were a programmer.

Of course people started to get upset because the only way they could advance in the company was to go into management. A corporate VP can make $250k/year but a programmer never could. Maybe if you single handedly implemented Google you'd get a $50k bonus that year, but your base salary is still $80k/year. And maybe you get a 15% pay raise for your great contribution.

And when everyone is a "programmer" it is more apparent than even now that everyone is a replaceable cog.

It sounds like the Google promotion system is just bad. Since technical ladders don't have human resource bottlenecks (you can't make everyone the dev manager, but you can promote everyone to Level 4 SWE) you really should have very clear guidelines as to what constitutes a promotion.

When I've managed it looks like this: "This is where you're at today. To get to the next level, this is what you need to do. With your help we've put together this plan for your next 3-6 months. You'll finish up A, make sure B gets deployed. C gets checked-in with QA sign off. Do this w/o ticking anyone off or being a general jerk and that looks like Level XYZ".

Every week we talk about his/her progress against the plan. There's no pleasant surprises, but there's also no big disappointment. If you're not getting a promotion we've known about it for a while, and we're usually both not happy because I've made it clear that something is not going well.

Notice, there's no competition against other employees or any other such race. With that said, there are cases where there is little or no money associated with the promotion, but surprisingly this is often not a concern.


> "This is where you're at today. To get to the next level, this is what you need to do. With your help we've put together this plan for your next 3-6 months. You'll finish up A, make sure B gets deployed. C gets checked-in with QA sign off. Do this w/o ticking anyone off or being a general jerk and that looks like Level XYZ"

"Sorry, corporate priorities changed. A and B were cancelled and C was put on indefinite hold. Sure, you did great work on D and E, but those weren't part of your stated goals for this year. Oh, and by the way, there was a re-org and the manager who promised you a promotion isn't your manager any more."

Not saying you personally do that; it sounds like you're a pretty good manager. But I've seen this pattern many times, and know a lot of other people who have experienced it.


That does happen, and when it does you adjust. It's not like your report is about to checkin everythign all at once, he's about to click Commit, and then new marching orders come down just before he presses the button.

Presumably when A gets cancelled, he comes by and says, "A just got cancelled" (or you tell him, depending on how news flows). "This was part of my plan for this cycle, how can we adjust the plan?" And then you discuss giving him proper credit for work on A until it was canceled, and then break down what his new priorities look like.

Or, "I just started work on D, how does this fit in the plan?" "Currently it doesn't, but lets get it in there".

There should be very few things that happen that would be so important that they'd be worth discussion in a promotion that you don't communicate about within a day or two of it first appearing on the radar (if not hours).

The last issue of a reorg is the one that is toughest to deal with. I would talk to their new manager, layout their plans, etc..., but there's no guarantee that the new manager will have the same philosophy.

Being a manager is hard work. And frankly, I'm largely done with people management. It's the hardest job I've ever had, bar none. But its important, and I think some of the problems noted in this article are things good management training can deal with.


Not if your annual targets have already been entered into SAP HR and the system won't let them be modified outside of the appraisal period, and required yes/no answers to them in the next appraisal period for it to do ranking calculations.

Basically if you have a formal appraisal process at all you're trapped in a machine.


You are right, it is not 100% perfect so therefore it should never be used, and we should keep using the much more broken system we have now.


@ken jackson, are you in a position to share what you would consider to be a good definition of what 'the next level' or promotion might look like?

Is it something specific to the individual, or something more general?

I've found it extremely challenging to write a light weight tech progression ladder, that is flexible enough to still be of use on a week by week basis for a specific individual and general enough to provide comparison across teams.

Any thoughts much appreciated (my initial stab can be found here http://fragile.org.uk/2010/09/how-to-appraise-a-developer-pa... it also explains why, despite this thread, I have a need for a tech ladder).

Neil


The way I've done it, although I really don't think its optimal, is to do it on a very individual basis w/ no formal guidelines. What I've found useful is to make all roadmaps publicly available, except for sensitive inforamtion. And then calibrate it upwards. So you as a manager, review with your manager your directs roadmap. You don't have to do this sync up often, but just enough so they can say, "Hmm... Tim's level 3 is doing much more impressive stuff, we probably need to sync up on this". And of course, with everything public you can get feedback from anyone at anytime -- but this happens less often than you might think.

In a big company this will probably lead to discrepencies across orgs. But honestly that probably happens anyways.


That's interesting, I do like the personal approach, but I'm not sure I see how you know to say, 'okay you've progressed enough that you can now call yourself a Senior Software Developer'

Ideally, I think I'd prefer not to have to assign labels at all (for the very good reasons outlined in this thread), but in practice I've found this not to be practical.


>Notice, there's no competition against other employees or any other such race.

there is. Limited promotion and salary increases pool.


There is no perfect review and compensation scheme. People will figure out how to game the system. Perhaps the best scheme is to randomly change it every few years so people can't game the system permanently.


I've often thought about that. I think it would be a worthwhile experiment.


biggest mistake is still having a "tech ladder"

What does that mean - there there shouldn't be an engineering career track, the only promotions are into management? (To avoid conflict of team leads being evaluated as individual contributors)


See the contextual blog post above and below this comment.


I think the problem is much more general. It seems like the underlying problem is that technology companies have idea to divide people into two categories: manager and individual contributors (developers). And then rank them into levels.

This might work for non-tech companies, but I think that is wrong approach for tech companies. One of the key problems is that big money is in "management career path", thus very smart young people which are unable or not willing to go into management will leave to start their own companies.

For example, if you look around you, you see that your fellow colleges and managers are quite different. Some of them are "mentors" (people who like to mentor), "intrapreneur" (people with weird ideas), "fire-fighters" (people who are good in fire mode), "coordinators", etc.

I'm not sure what is the solution. Maybe something like mash up structure where person who is deciding on ones bonus and raise is not his/her manager.


I actually think this is one of the places Microsoft has done very well in over the years. I don't think used to be the case a decade ago though but the IC career path is as lucrative/supported now as the management path. One can choose to be a Anders Hejlsberg/Dave Cutler as much as one chooses to be a Steven Sinofsky.


He says offhand that Google is a better place for engineers to work than Apple, but as far as I can tell, Apple makes none of these five mistakes.


I know several Apple and ex-Apple engineers. Let's just say that the environment isn't even comparable. Google wins hands down. One of my friends at Apple had to file for an information request so that she could debug a problem that spanned multiple layers of abstraction. A Google engineer faced with that kind of inanity would just quit.


I've also heard complaints from Google and ex-Google people that wouldn't come up at Apple. Examples: - Launching a hard-to-understand product and providing it with scant marketing support, so it promptly goes nowhere (when Apple launches a product we are committed to making it a success). - Central hiring leads to o way of knowing what kind of project you will end up working on, and high risk that it will be infrastructure grunt work which is not respected by the culture.

Does internal secrecy suck more or less than those kinds of things? I dunno. I would not be so bold as to make a claim either way without firsthand experience of both environments.


I'm sure having the trains run on time is nice, but I have to concur with piaw - from the people I've talked to, Apple sounds like a remarkably stifling place to work.


Certainly over the course of Apple's decades they've made many managing mistakes and it would be trivial for an insider to make a list of any five of them, without ordering of "the top five" or anything like this.

It's impossible to be around for so long and to employ many people and not make any mistakes. No company is perfect. Coming away from this presentation thinking "pffft Company X is so much better because they don't do this" is a huge mistake - if you aren't making mistakes, you aren't trying.


What is a "Peer bonus structure"? I appears in #3 Recognition, "Peer bonus structure was very well done, but not widely used inside engineering."


You can give a peer bonus of $200 to any individual with their manager's approval (which is very easy to get). They encourage giving peer bonuses for when someone goes the extra mile on something, but very few engineers initiate giving a peer bonus. After tax, it's about $100, hence the "I can poop $100" bit.


Is "close to 50%" the going marginal tax rate in general? I calculate ~30% federal + ~10% California + possibly ~6% social security & Medicare to get that number; did I miss anything? (current grad student with a marginal rate a lot closer to 20%, haven't had the joy of full-on taxes yet)


Closer to 8% for SS & Medicare. Also, you'll typically have deductions taken out of bonuses for your 401(k) and ESPP contributions (maybe another 20-25%). Technically, those are still your money; and ESPP will come back to you before too long, but the psychological impact of opening up your paycheck and only seeing 30-40% of the gross you were told was your bonus is pretty frustrating.


Most of those people would hopefully be above the social security threshold of around $100K/year so that would not apply. I think a marginal tax rate of more like 30-40% is more accurate.


It depends on when in the year the bonus is delivered. If it's early in the year, it doesn't matter if you're going to hit the Social Security ceiling eventually, they take it out of your bonus. I speak from personal experience both on this matter, and on my previous accounting of only 30-40% of bonuses actually hitting my bank account.


there is increased withholding on bonus pay, some of which you get back with your tax return.


I'd like to hear Paul Buchheit's take on this. He was thinking a lot about company culture issues at FriendFeed, and now at Facebook.


Paul "liked" the blog post on Facebook. :-)


This is great, but I think EVERY tech company struggles with finding the right balance here. Where I currently work, they also fail each and every one of these.


That's not true. I think the traditional management systems do a good job of not setting bad incentives for tech leads.


There is no perfect system and it is always very difficult to find the right incentives for everyone in the company.


Any large company is going to have those same mistakes. There is really no way around it. Especially the part about only the big sexy project got recognition and not the little grungy tasks. In a company of 20,000, unless you have a 1:5 manager to employee ration at all levels you can't avoid that. If these are Google's biggest mistakes then I would happily go to work for them.


I think that it is possible to build a culture where the grunchy unsexy work becomes much less un-thanked. Microsoft at its best did it: Raymond Chen was much celebrated for his heroic efforts at preserving backwards compatibility in Windows. In fact, when the Raymond Chen camp lost its political battle, Microsoft got Windows Vista, which arguably cost it billions. I think the stakes are very high in exactly this sort of political battle, and it is worth while for top engineers to spend their time fighting for precisely this sort of culture shift.




Applications are open for YC Winter 2018

Guidelines | FAQ | Support | API | Security | Lists | Bookmarklet | DMCA | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: