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Ditching the MacBook Pro for a MacBook Air (bradfrost.com)
368 points by ingve on Nov 22, 2018 | hide | past | web | favorite | 568 comments

My faith in Apple would be completely redeemed if they took the 2015 Macbook Pro, put current gen hardware in it, maybe add a couple USB-C ports, and call it the 2019 Macbook Pro. My personal computer is a 2015 and my work is a 2017, and there are zero features from the 2017 that I prefer.

I recently upgraded from the 2015 to the current gen.

2015 pros: * Better battery life * Way better keyboard * More robust * More useful port selection * Trackpad is a more reasonable size

2018 pros: * Way better speakers * Slightly better screen * Lighter * Faster * Trackpad is not mechanical * Finger print login is useful

I'd really love a proper "pro" macbook pro, that sacrificed a bit of the thin-and-lightness for an actual professional level of stuff (better cooling, more ports, bigger battery, no touchbar)

I updated from 2012 to 2016, hated and sold it after a couple of keyboard fails, and bought a 2015. My next Macbook will probably be a Thinkpad way things are going.

The better speakers I'd like. I still need to use USB sticks and SD pretty frequently and have always hated bags of adaptors. They always seem to break or get lost at the moment you're sitting with the important client.

The rest seems to come with a cost far worse than the benefit (for me anyway).

Larger trackpad was so large I would constantly get false activations when typing. Perhaps I have the wrong sort of fingers.

The touchbar was constantly activating when I typed on the top row of physical keys. Perhaps I have the wrong sort of fingers again. :)

The newer thinner keyboard was both horrible and horribly unreliable. Dust sensitive? LOL I think back to when the kids were little and throwing rusks, or putting toast in the VCR the moment we blinked. Then the amount of dog and cat hair (that magically gets everywhere) that's been removed from our keyboards over the years.

Lighter is OK, but not at a huge battery life cost compared to the 2015.

Well, don't get the Thinkpad for better speakers. Speaking as an owner of a new t480s, whose dumb idea was to put speakers on the bottom of the case? My lap don't have ears. Of course the battery life is even worse than the bad 2016 Macbook, not by much though. But it's not whatever double digit hours they claim. If you think apple makes nonsensical design decisions, try any windows laptop, apple is still miles ahead in certain areas. Windows is so bad it's not even funny anymore (for example cortana guided setup is disturbing) and don't get me started about linux.

What's wrong with Linux? Its support for Thinkpad hardware is pretty exceptional, it just isn't great at holding your hand.

If by holding your hand you mean stuff works out of the box, then yes it isn't great. I did manage to get hidpi working in just 1-2 days (not with wayland, nothing works on wayland, let's give it just 5 more years and I'm sure it will happen), and it also goes to sleep fine, trackpad is not as bad as I expected it to be. All perfectly great achievements for 2018.

xubuntu versions running perfectly on my Thinkpad E550 (and Desktop) for many years already. Raspbian on my PI's and ubuntu on my beaglebone black. Don't settle for the provided software configuration. Settle for the open tool that is made for support.

Not sure why a laptop really needs better speakers (or even any speakers) both of mine are permanently hooked up to headphones.

Because some people dont like to use headphones. Some couples prefer watching a movie in bed.

Easily solved with a Bluetooth speaker, unlike say dust-vulnerable KBs...

What if you dont carry your speaker everywhere?

your scenario was about a couple watching movies in bed, though...

To be honest, I really love my rMBP 2014 hardware, it was basically perfect. Great speaker, as you say, good enough keyboard, BEST display, etc.

If Apple releases another MBP based on 2015 I'll take a quite good look again.

I only use my laptop when I am traveling. At home, I have no need for it. I am not traveling with speakers. I doubt I am alone.

Are you really going to carry around a bluetooth speaker in everyroom though, if someone wants to watch it on the couch?

How many rooms in a house do people really watch movies in? A couple of bluetooth speakers covers the 95% case, and just using the crappy laptop speakers or use earbuds or headphones for the 5% case.

Of course it would be nicer if the laptop had better speakers in it, but there are always trade-offs to be made on cost vs benefit, and fairly cheap bluetooth speakers are a pretty good workaround for a lot of people.

Not sure why you call the macbooks speakers crappy, i would imagine most people would consider them good enough and be happy with then instead of dealing with external Bluetooth speakers and carrying them around with the laptop.

My comment wasn't meant to be macbook specific. Most laptop speakers don't sound as nice as a reasonable set of bluetooth speakers or headphones. The main point of my comment was to counter the (strawman) idea that the only option for someone who didn't like the laptop speaker was to carry around a bluetooth speaker with them from room to room, which is of course not very practical. But having a couple of them strategically placed in the house is affordable and practical for most cases.

Now instead of a room think about a house or a office, is your idea of carrying a speaker everywhere still practical or do you think adding a speakers on laptop is more practical?

I think you've misread/misunderstood my comment. I'm trying to say that carrying around a bluetooth speaker IS impractical (and the initial criticism of it a type of strawman argument because it's obviously impractical). I'm not suggesting in any way that carrying around a speaker everywhere is a good idea (it's not).

What I'm trying to say is that if really good audio quality is important to you, then having a couple of sets of bluetooth speakers in your house strategically placed in the places where you'd regularly watch movies or consume other high-quality audio is a reasonable workaround for a lot of people. OF COURSE having better speakers (equivalent in sound quality to the bluetooth workaround) in your laptop would be better if you care a lot about audio quality. But that would add to the cost of the laptop for every user, even the ones that don't care about having really high-quality audio on their laptop. I'm saying that it's not unreasonable for a manufacturer to make some tradeoffs like that when there are workarounds that work fairly well.

Over time the costs of adding higher-end features like this drop, and things like audio quality improve to the point that the workarounds aren't needed (the audio quality of my phone speaker is actually pretty amazing).

Do people not have TVs?

By a strange coincidence I'm also in the group of people using their Macbook Pro while sitting on the sofa, due to not having a tv. I wouldn't use a dedicated TV enough to justify having one.

I dont know about others but I dont have a TV.

Ah like the annoying teenagers on the bus sodcasting

Why would you even argue for bad speakers for laptops? Of course a laptop should have good speakers..

I was checking Yoga from Lenovo and or Matebook X


I have the 2015 and the 2017 (without touch bar).

I agree to most things, with the minor correction that the trackpad on the 2015 is also not mechanical (and works fine, I also like the size better).

Regarding the screen I observed: The 2017 has better colors. However it is far more of a dust and dirt magnet, and harder to clean. It seems like the coating or glass might be different, which allows more dust and grease to stick. As a result the display of my 2015 looks mostly clean, the 2017 is messed up as soon as I use it for two hours and have it in my backpack.

All in all I like the 2015 more. They should have just replaced the DisplayPort/TB2 connector with USB-C/TB3 and it would have been fine. The extra lightness of the 2017 is nice to have, but from a practical standpoint the form factor of the 2015 was already great.

To clarify, are you saying that your 3 year old 2015 laptop has, today, better battery life than your new 2018 laptop? That's mad...

To those of you that complain about battery life. I noticed that using Safari as my browser gives me almost an hour extra compared to Firefox. To me it seems that newer CPU may be more efficient overall, but they seem to consume more power under medium to heavy load.

My front-end dev colleague used to tell me to use a "proper" browser (i.e. Chrome) because I favoured Safari and even with DevTools. I said it gives me more battery life on a MacBook!

The 2015 15" had a 100Wh battery, the 2018 has an 83Wh battery. The 2015 gets better battery life because it has 20% more battery capacity.

I wonder if the touchbar is also doing significant drains on the battery.

That would make sense if they had the same hardware. Different hardware absorbs different current. You cannot deduce anything from battery size.

I've had the pleasure of upgrading from a 2015 to a 2017. The battery life on the latter is definitely worse, no matter what the official specs say.

Yeah I went from 2014 to 2017, and went from broadly not worrying about doing 6 hours of solid dev work without thinking about battery to essentially never feeling comfortable away from a plug.

I'd guesstimate I get at most 3 hours on the 2017 before the battery level gets low enough I have to start planning where I'll next plug in. Not ideal.

part of the issue is if you have anything other than textedit open, the discrete GPU is on hoovering up all your watt-hours.

It is, but I haven't found it to be significantly worse. About an hour less.

Many people would describe an hour's difference to be a "significant" change, especially when a scale of around 10 hours total battery life is being considered.

Sure, but considering the "fudge factor" that Apple often applies for their battery life estimates ("casual browsing", etc.) an hour isn't all that much.

I think decaying batteries might drive people to get new machines? Just a suspicion. They do it with iphones :p

It’s certainly an incentive to upgrade, but only if the newer model is a clear upgrade...

I suspect that Apple will be seeing a lot of 2015 MBPs brought in for battery replacements...

All batteries decay.

I concur.

That's kinda the point... Instead of using more energy efficient new gen CPU to add ~3 hours of life, Apple used it to make the already perfect laptop insignificantly thinner and lighter by reducing the battery size.

> You cannot deduce anything from battery size.

physics might have a word with you :)

This isn't my experience at all, I have a 2015, a 2017 and 2018 MacBook pros. The 17 isn't all that tbh and I only have it because they replaced my 16 model. The battery isn't all that and the keyboard is a big dodgy. The 2018 though is absolutely fine, the battery is great and the keyboard has been fine the whole time. I have to use the 2015 for one of my contracts and Im always glad to get back to the 2018.

I just replaced the battery in my Early 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 13.

When it was new i would regularly get ~12 hours of light usage from it (safari, email, terminal, VPN, citrix, remote desktop). It has been providing around 8-9 hours steadily for the past year or so. I finally noticed when placed flat on a table it wasn't sitting flat, and the battery was swollen.

Now with a new battery we're back to 12+ hours of light usage.

i had a 2016 mbp, and it had (IIRC) ~7000mAh battery. My 2015 mbp had ~8800mAh. The battery itself was smaller in the 2016 model, presumably for thin/weight.

Those numbers can't be right. That's only double what an iphone has.

Different voltages

mAh is not a measure of energy; Apple says the Macbooks have about 54 watt-hours, whereas an iPhone has between 6 and 10.

My old 2015 MacBook Pro without a discrete GPU had amazing battery life. I'd get at least 8 hours, and over 10 if I wanted to sacrifice some of the brightness and turn bluetooth off. I got upgraded to the discrete GPU model and I could get at most 6 to 7 hours for the same workload.

Nowadays, you can't even get a 15 inch MacBook Pro without a discreet GPU.

You can stop the OS from switching to the discrete GPU using an app like gfxCardStatus

I thought the 2015 had a force touch and non mechanical touchpad too.

exactly ;) so well-designed that you can't even tell it's non mechanical (unless you turn the clicky sound and vibrations off)

I still prefer the 2015 Macbook Pros to the current release and that's just sad. How is it so easy for Apple to throw away so much good design research and implementation? They don't even have the mag-safe chargers, nor the the battery indicator lights on the chargers, what a step backwards on such simple but great functionality!

I own a 2015 Macbook since the launch in 2015 (duh), and I remember letting people use my force touch trackpad saying that it doesn't 'click'. Took almost everyone at least several minutes to convince them that the trackpad doesn't actually click. :-)

Furthermore I do agree with you on pretty much every point. I don't like my 2017 Macbook and I most certainly won't upgrade my 2015 to any new pro laptop.

Correct, the 2015 has force touch, which is how they fit the 99.5 Wh battery.

Whoa, I switched to a 2015 MBP last year and didn't know about force touch yet. Time to repeat the onboarding I guess, there is some incredibly useful hidden UI.

Yes it has force touch trackpad

Better cooling, definitely. My machine gets quite hot on my lap unless I have it turn on the fans earlier using Macs Fan Control. I'm using it as a pro machine, so it's running a bunch of docker containers, Slack, VS Code, a million tabs across Firefox and Chrome. It's a busy machine and it doesn't need to be silent if that means it's hot enough to be uncomfortable on my legs and hands.

MBP heating issues are from the fact that the dedicated GPU doesn't get enough cooling, the frame is too small.

Add https://github.com/0xbb/gpu-switch - run the integrated gpu only - and you will never listen to a fan again, and prolong the life of your MPB.

It's discouraging to hear the 15" MBP GPU's still have heating/failure issues, I toasted a few 15" MBP GPU's in 2006-2009. Not sure what the point is to have a GPU in a laptop I don't use.

The project readme warns it's broken on recent macos versions.

Chrome is probably the biggest culprit. It is awfuly inefficient on macOS

Firefox burns through battery rapidly too. Seems that you have to stick with Safari to get good battery life out of an MBP - it makes a very real difference

I switched to Safari when it added favicons to browser tabs the other month. The CPU-usage/battery difference is huge. I also like the new Safari extension paradigm and have ported some extensions of my own that could be improved by moving CPU-bound work to Swift.

I only use Chrome for development now.

I have Chrome only for the built in Flash. I don’t play many flash games these days, but I don’t know what I’m going to do when Google finally strips that out. Seems like Kongregate has drifted towards Unity but there are a few classics, and I have an old game that a friend and I made a long time ago that I like to play from time to time.

Am I misunderstanding something, or you just said Safari added favicon support in 2018?

You did not misunderstand: that is a new thing in Safari

I upgraded from a 2017 13" MacBook Pro touch bar to 2018 15" MacBook Pro touch bar, and noticed a huge improvement.

  - 6 cores (12 threads) was absolutely noticeable
  - NVme disk performance is much faster
  - 2nd generation butterfly keyboard is much improved
  - Speakers are way louder, bassy, and crisp
  - 15" screen is much better in terms of real-estate than 13"

I upgraded from a top-end 2017 15" to a top-end 2018 15", and even that was very noticeable. I was quite surprised at how much better the 2018 was.

I really liked the 2017 to begin with.

You actually have the 3rd gen butterfly keyboard. The first gen was only on the 12“ MacBook series. And that one was really bad (have zero feedback). The 2nd gen on the 2017 is bearable, but doesn’t seem to be long term reliable

2015 trackpad isn’t mechanical either

> I'd really love a proper "pro" macbook pro

More like MacBook Dev, imagine:

- Good keyboard, with Lenovo-like mouse clitoris

- Edges that aren't cutting your wrists off

- No touch bar and regular size trackpad (heck, I'll pay extra for this)

- 15" OLED screen for outdoors

- Figure out GPU. I do not want annoying GPU switching and beast of graphics card - I just enough to drive 5K screen.

- A USB port

- MacBook Air weight/size or insane battery life

- CPU with best single thread performance

- RAM up to 128GB or more

It's never been clear to me why people want a mouse clitoris on a computer with a real trackpad.

I've seen plenty of windows laptops with awful trackpads where I get it, but aren't they just a huge step back compared to a macbook trackpad?

My ideal laptop would be a 2015 Macbook Pro with Thinkpad keyboard (the older one before Lenovo moved all the keys around) and trackpoint. Preferably without the trackpad at all like was an option on older Thinkpads. On my last Thinkpad you could customise the trackpad to activate differently and do entirely different things to the trackpoint. Useful for a select few apps. I ultimately disabled the trackpad as I didn't use those few often enough.

Middle click scroll whilst still typing, as your fingers stay on the home keys. Precision and acceleration that's leagues ahead of every trackpad, including Apple, and faster than moving hand to a mouse. OK, I know quite a few seem to struggle with a trackpoint when first using by using actions that worked on their trackpad and other oddities. It's so long ago I forget my first encounters and learning curve.

I carry a small mouse around with the Macbook. When I have used Thinkpads I never carried a mouse and often didn't use the mouse at my desk either.

Mine would be a new X220 form factor thinkpad with modern battery tech and... any linux OS. It's OK though; I've got enough X220s and batteries to last me the rest of my career.

And a better screen. The X220 is really let down by that horrible panel.

The TFT isn't totally horrible, but there aren't enough of them.

I've never developed the muscle memory to be effective with the trackpoint, but it does have the distinct advantage of being usable without taking your hands off the keyboard.

I can use it without moving my hands away from home-row position, I can drag-n-drop much more easily than a trackpad, middle-clicking and right-clicking are both more consistent, and I can scroll indefinitely in any direction without picking up my hands.

This is probably just me, but when using my laptop on my lap, if I were using the trackpad i would have to bring my hands down closer to my body which is less comfortable, or move my laptop further away from me.

Can you provide some info into how you typically use trackpoint. Which fingers do you use and how do you control the acceleration when going few pixels away or whole screen corner to corner. What about the clicks.

I have a thinkpad and am always curious on how to effectively use it. Even a video of someone using it might help.

This will be hard to describe. I'll try.

Treat it as a tiny proportional joystick, which it is. I use index finger of dominant hand. Press hard and it'll fly the cursor across the screen. Press gently and it'll give excellent precision. If you keep overshooting, you haven't adjusted to gently enough. It is less movement and more thought for pixel perfect precision as you can barely feel any feedback but still get movement.

I always have to turn up acceleration, but rarely sensitivity, in Trackpoint settings a notch or two for my own preference. For me, if I turn sensitivity down, it ruins it. YMMV.

I will left, right and middle click with thumbs as they're just below space and land there naturally.

Thumb on middle and drag to scroll at pressure sensitive speed for as long as you press. No need to "reset" when you reach the end of trackpad or finger on scrollwheel. Two thumbs and index finger means select and paste are almost as fast as vi-only approaches, as it's placed so you're essentially still typing. :)

I realize the original poster responded, but I am currently in the process of going through this transition and my experience may be of use to you.

The thinkpad was the latest machine I got, after a string of macbooks and one XPS-15. I made a concerted effort to switch simply because I'm spoiled on OSX trackpads, and the thinkpad trackpad widget just isn't up to par (especially on ThinkPad + Linux). I asked a few colleagues how they got around the trackpad issue and a couple mentioned they just use the nipple cursor.

It's been a few months now. Changing over was really annoying at first. As the other poster mentioned - the key is learning muscle memory for _sensitivity_ to control the speed of the cursor. A light firm touch with a small pressure in the correct direction is all that's necessary for moderate speed.

I use my left index finger to control the cursor, and my left (spacebar) thumb to at the same time to click/drag/etc (as the mouse buttons are right below the spacebar).

Middle-click + drag-down for scrolling is really convenient.

I find myself having just crossed that midway point where the new system is becoming dominant. The trackpads are starting to feel somewhat unwieldy and cumbersome to me now - even the macbook ones when I use my wife's or friends'. It feels like they require too much hand movement, and are far more "gesticulatory" than gentle pushes and pulls on the nipple cursor.

I think I'm faster with the cursor now than with even high-quality trackpads.

If you do end up trying it out, be prepared to tweak settings a bit to get the right ones for you (and as the other replier mentioned - don't skimp on sensitivity), and be prepared to spend a couple weeks feeling like your hands are tied when you want to move the cursor around.

It gets better after that.

Interesting to read as I first used one so long ago most of the learning curve is lost to the mist of time.

> It feels like they require too much hand movement, and are far more "gesticulatory" than gentle pushes

Well put. This encapsulates it well.

> I think I'm faster with the cursor now

When I'd got the hang of never overshooting and changing pressure to vary acceleration as I move around, trackpads, even Apple's, just start to feel cumbersome. Quite apart from the need to move hand away from the keyboard so you can't press keys at the same time. It's the thing I miss most on my Mac.

Oh, and just to address the parent's comment that a video might help. Probably not, as there's not much movement to see. Press an index finger on a desk or table and roll your finger around the pad - that's the extremes of movement you should expect with a trackpoint, assuming your finger didn't move on the table at all. :)

I'm left handed, I use my left index finger to manipulate the trackpoint, and my left thumb for any of the three mouse buttons. Clicking the middle button is a middle click, and holding the middle button makes the trackpoint movements act as scrolling.

My laptop is a T450s, running Debian and KDE Plasma. Acceleration is set to medium, and "Adaptive". The key is tuning your sensitivity/accelaration so you can make very fine/slow movements, but also move the cursor all the way across the screen with stronger/faster ones.

See, it's never been clear to me how anyone would willingly work with a touchpad. My first laptop had one and I used with a mouse whenever I could, even in uni lecture halls where there wasn't really much space.

Only when I got my first thinkpad I could finally work without a mouse and haven't looked back since.

And yes, the mac ones are a bit better than the others, but I still don't like them. At all.

I'd have give a trackpoint on the HP Elitebook I was given to work with by one customer if only there was a way to scroll with it.

Not sure if that's possible on a Thinkpad but there was no obvious way on the HP running Ubuntu to do the equivalent of two finger touchpad scrolling.

I dunno. Most of the windows laptops I've used all had mediocre touchpads, so if I was going to do some serious amount of work on them, always used the mouse. But for my MBPs, the thought never even occurs to me, the touchpad does the job quite well.

I'm a big thinkpad fan, and I prefer the trackpoint to trackpads. You never have to move your hands out of position, and the benefit of that is hard to communicate to someone who is used to trackpads. You can also have better form factors, better keyboards, etc, because you don't need to leave a big chunk of space free for the trackpad.

FWIW I'm ok with trackpads too; I'm an engineer and all my jobs have given me an MBP for work. But like, I'm never pinching and zooming, keyboard shortcuts work just fine for paging and back/forward. Love I know gestures have been successful because keyboard shortcuts aren't intuitive, but to someone like me who uses them, gestures just seem like gimmicks for which we sacrifice smaller laptops and bigger keyboards.

Also FWIW I dislike naming things after genitals. I find it crude and vaguely misogynistic in this case, and wish people would stop.

Put the mouse pad at the top of the keyboard, not under your hands. For most people you only need a 1"x2" pad. Maybe have two for lefties. It makes more ergonomic sense. If you need more than that, you're probably better off with an external mouse.

It's more precise when operated without moving hands away from the keyboard. I can almost play dota or FPS games to the same degree I can with a mouse with the clitmouse, such things can't really be said about the trackpad. There are also 3 distinct buttons which I find handy - I don't recall exactly how trackpads solved the right mouse click or middle click issues - so whilst I miss out on the gestures, I find I can do about the same things with keyboard shortcuts or extra buttons on the mouse (scrolling with the middle click and moving the cursor).

However, extended use does induce tension in my wrist - hence I prefer not to play games on a laptop. The first thing I do when I get a new laptop with a trackpoint and a trackpad is disable the trackpad. If the glorious fruit company offered laptops with trackpoints, I'd do the same. I don't believe that a trackpoint is better than a trackpad in every conceivable way, but it does fit my way of using my devices far better than trackpads do. However, I also don't believe that there will ever be a trackpoint on a glorious fruit device - they don't allow for multiple ways of doing the same thing, and I'm very aware that most people do prefer trackpads to trackpoints. I just hope that my niche will be served by someone until I no longer want to use laptops.

I believe the more usual term is 'trackpoint'.

The only computer Apple sells with 128 GB of RAM is the iMac Pro. There's no way they will sell a laptop with that much in the foreseeable future.

When did we start calling it a clitoris?

Twenty five years ago, when they first came out.

It always was either a clitoris or a nipple.

> RAM up to 128GB or more

Do you know how much physical space that would take? I highly doubt you’ll see it any time soon.

Right now you need 4 SO-DIMMs: 32 GB each. you can get that already in Lenovo's P72. That is a 17" workstation laptop though, so it has more room available than others, but it's not totally crazy, especially if a vendor used a different format instead of bothering with DIMMs. I don't think Apple's gonna do that anytime soon though, it's too niche for what they do.

Hynix has a 32Gb LPDDR4 chip on their catalog, listed as "in production". If a laptop was LPDDR4 compatible, you could fit 128GB in two double-sided SODIMMs.

128GB of RAM and long battery life are mutually exclusive.

Except Intel doesn’t support LPDDR4 ram on most CPUs they ship currently.

How long have you had it for? I'd be willing to go back to the new models (having returned my 2017) if they truly fix the keyboard issue

> 2018 pros: Trackpad is not mechanical

My 2015 MBP has a force-touch trackpad. Is the 2018 one substantially different from that?

It's the same, just a lot bigger.

Well, there's no way that's going to happen. I'd put more money on them replacing all the mechanical keys with capactive touch and removing the headphone jack.

I'm considering getting a Dell XPS or Lenovo Ideapad instead and install macos (hackintosh laptop).

I got a dell XPS 13 this week for work and its absolutely insane. Best laptop I have ever had and I have had macbooks. I'm running Fedora 29 on it and it works perfect. The battery life is amazing, I'm seeing about 10+ hours while running Gnome and a bunch of dev tools. Made sure to pick one without a nvidia GPU. The only thing I can fault it for is you can't open the hinge with one hand.

I have an XPS 13 with Linux too. One thing I notice that's not mentioned very much about battery life is how hybrid sleep works.

On macOS closing the lid is suspends to sleep i.e. it keeps RAM powered only. On Fedora 29 (and every other Linux I've tried) it's the same.

The difference is that after some set amount of time macOS is smart enough to stop powering the RAM and suspend to SSD. That's not the case under Linux and instead the laptop just goes completely flat.

Anyone with any suggestions on that I'd love to hear it.

(I should add that I see the XPS 13 as a competitor to the old MacBook Air 11 but with a quad-core CPU and a bigger screen).

This feature exists under linux as well, it's called `suspend-then-hibernate`. See [0] for more details.

[0] https://jlk.fjfi.cvut.cz/arch/manpages/man/systemd-sleep.con...

Yes! Thank you. It's not working out of the box for me on Fedora but I've decided to play with an Arch install anyway so hopefully should be able to get this working.

Personally I like the 2017 model (9360) better than the 2018 model (9370).

The 2018 model notebook is thinner but it suffers from problems as a result of this: No USB A port. The SD card slot was replaced by a Micro SD card slot. CPU heat management is also an issue. Finally, it has a smaller battery (52Wh instead of 60Wh, 13% less!). The display went from 3200x1800 to 4K which doesn't really make sense for a 13inch display anyway.

See https://www.notebookcheck.com/Editorial-Dell-XPS-13-9370-Sex... for details (German)

Also the keyboard layout on your older 9360 is better than on my 9370. On the 9370 they've split the left and right arrow keys to do PgUp and PgDown.

Personally, I find that difficult to touch type with. I'd rather have that as fn keys as it is on a mac.

I got the 9360. It seems they updated it to have a 2018 version. I guess for the people who don't want to go all usb C. The specs seemed to be way better for the price as well.

I made the MacBook Pro (mid-2011) to XPS (15" i7 9570 4K) switch a few months ago, after putting off an upgrade about as long as possible. I'm still not liking the XPS with Kubuntu 18.04 - to the extent that I'm seriously considering switching back to Apple. At this point, I've got all the major issues sorted (like, not going to sleep when closed, docking station weirdness, etc), but there are constant smaller issues with the sort of things that "just work" with Apple hardware and MacOS.

Hardware wise - it's most of the way to being a great laptop, but has a few aspects that seem "designed by committee". The 4K screen looks really nice, keyboard is pretty good, it's quite fast, battery life is good. But, the trackpad is massively irritating - it's constantly picking up the heel of my hands while typing and causing the cursor to jump and click. The webcam is terribly located, the TB16 dock is a piece of junk, speakers only sound OK if you're working on a hard surface. They still use a barrel connector for power - would've preferred to get power over USB-C (which the dock uses to provide power), and have a second USB-C port on the laptop.

There are several issues with Linux support - if you're successful making an XPS Hackintosh, then those won't be a problem, but I'd encourage getting the lower resolution screen if you're considering the Linux route.

Linux won't be a good choice for desktop os on a laptop for a long time. It is not a priority for any vendor to fix issues and the community won't support 10.000 different hardware effectively. Hackintosh is an interesting option. I am wondering if you can run it on XPS properly.

For most of the last 15 or so years, I've been running Linux on the desktop on a work or personal computer, actually, and wouldn't say it has always been a bad choice.

Some hardware + distro combinations have certainly made that easier than others, but the general trend has been towards a good experience. Certainly there's been less headache with the average Linux desktop, than some Windows (plus whatever Antivirus that the IT higher-ups have mandated) machines I've had...

This particular laptop though, has highlighted the poor Linux support for "DPI Scaling" (a 15" 4K screen was the only option at the time), and touch screens. Combined with some questionable hardware design decisions (webcam, speakers), and some generally crap design (the TB16 dock) though, this whole package just isn't a purchase that I'm really happy about - and that's only partially about Linux. The touchpad might well be the sort of issue you describe, where a better driver could better adjust the sensitivity, but even there I'd look first at the vendor before blaming "the community".

It's a shame really, because as these MacBook Pro threads attest, there are a lot of folks looking for something that's totally feasible, but no manufacturer seems to be aiming at...

Why don't you just use Windows with the included Ubuntu subsystem?


Because the I/O performance sucks, there's an AV process that goes haywire whenever anything is compiled, the terminals suck, I've not found a non-bad way of SSH'ing into WSL remotely, it's about as clunky as using Wine on Linux some years ago, there's spyware and ads on the enterprise install of Windows 10, software I can't remove by using the tools to remove all other software (installers for Office and the like), but above all, when I'm running the NT kernel, it's mostly to run software that only runs on the NT kernel. I've not run NT on bare metal in a while, but looking at the struggles of people around me, I don't intend to in the near or long term.

Have you tried to use WSL?

It is its own silo on Windows. Yes, it is native from an implementation standpoint, but does not play well (yet) with the rest of the Windows environment.

Install Visual Studio Code, the usual Windows version.

Explain to VS Code that it is really a good idea to use the Linux subsystem as its command-line environment. Not only interactive sessions like Bash on its integrated terminal, but also for git, compilers, Node, etc.

Once you have got that set up and your development workflow going ok, try setting up the same on Linux or macOS.

Which one would you prefer?

The Windows Subsystem for Linux is brilliant. PowerShell is brilliant. The dotNET universe can be brilliant.

I wish it was easy.

Are you talking out of experience? I've used a linux laptop for the last 6 years and have had only small issues.

Hackintoshes tend to break (more specifically, the OS) with every OS update.

I've switched from Linux (Thinkpad X240) to macOS (Macbook Pro 2015, and now 2018) because of those small issues [1]. However, nowadays I feel like your experience with Linux laptop really depends on what kind of work you are doing, and how often do you have to interact with 3rd party tools. I've been primarily desktop Linux user for something like 13 years before switching to Mac, and those small issues had only become a problem once I've started encountering them on a daily basis.

[1] For me issues were mostly interaction with random conference software and screen sharing (e.g. webex), or random hangs when connecting external displays (e.g. doing a presentation before CTO).

FWIW I've found the Dell xps 13 with ubuntu very pleasant

I am not sure how it is relevant to the subject that you can use a Linux desktop.

If you're worrying about the long term use of Linux on a Dell or Lenovo machine you are going to hate trying to run Mac OS on it.

At that point why not just run Ubuntu? Unless you're REALLY deep in the Apple ecosystem, moving from MacOS to Ubuntu or Mint is really easy.

Keeping it more consistent with work setup.

I had a Dell XPS 9530 and the support was an absolute disaster. The techs had no idea (all local contractors I’d imagine), they fried the power, WiFi and incorrectly applied the thermal paste so it never worked properly

After just one year I tried to get more support and they said I’d have to send it in for three weeks which was impossible, I was using it every day. Onsite support was only for the first year, whereas apple stores you can just walk into

Finally the warranty ended and I decided to fix the damn thing myself. Was extremely careful and it was perfect for about a week, then the power somehow failed and it now refuses to turn on. Windows is also horrible for coding due to heavy file system use, fat threads and windows defender, let alone the constant privacy invasion. Was planning to install Ubuntu but figured if I ever did send it in it would just confuse them all the more

I finally got an MBP 2015, should have done it from the beginning.

I had only one issue with my XPS 13 9350 so far - at one point the battery died and I had to send it in. It got replaced quickly and since then it's been fine.

One thing I love about the Dell vs the Macbook I had previously is that I can just download a service manual from https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/de/de/debsdt1/xps-13-93... if I want to service it myself.

Apple on the other hand will disable your computer if they detect that an unauthorized 3rd party has serviced it (if you bought a recent one with a T2 chip).

Weird, I have the 9550 and had the opposite support experience. It did have a couple of issues, but each time Dell had a guy out at my house the following day with replacement parts, no charge, no questions asked.

I purchased the extended support once the warranty expires, so have another 2 or so years left on that.

Yeah I agree. I have an XPS and it's cool but despite the MacBooks faults I still enjoy using it over the XPS.

I was agreeing with your post until you went off on your windows rant of fud.

Ideapads are generally pretty garbage, aren't they? In my limited experience they range from terrible to middling.

I have Y500, trackpad is useless, keyboard was OK. But it's more like a mobile WS, with power usage of 110W and 3 hours on battery (:

Don't give them any more ideas!

I upgraded from a late 2015 to a 2018 earlier this fall.

I don’t really miss anything, especially not the weight or the keyboard.

The touchbar has never been of use to me though. It doesn’t annoy me much, but the user design for changing volume requires more clicks than the non touchbar, so it’s obviously terrible design.

I don’t miss any of the ports, I thought I would, but it’s not like there was an Ethernet port so I still needed a dongle for the 2015 version.

There’s certainly room for improvement, but the 512gb 13” version isn’t crazy expensive for what you’re getting compared to other laptops, at least not in my country.

The keyboard is the part I dislike the most on the 2017, although I heard they made it better on the 2018. Loud, no travel, requires more force to actuate, more difficult to touch type reliably because I can barely feel the edges of the keys.

I definitely hate the touchbar, for the same reason. I just want the buttons I need to be there when I need them. Changing volume or screen brightness just takes that much longer and I have no tactile feedback, so I actually have to look at the keyboard instead of relying on muscle memory.

I mostly don't care about the ports, but I'd still rather not have to use dongles if I don't have to. Would it have been that hard to add one or two USB 3.0 ports? No, but then how would they sell $80 dongles?

I think the keyboard is down to preference, I prefer the new one.

It does seem silly not to include a dongle in the box though. I mean, I’m buying apple because I want my tech to just work, and now my mouse or magic keyboard can’t connect and charge?

The only real port annoyance I have though, is the damn headphone jack. :p I mean, I can’t connect my iPhone XS headphones to my MacBook Pro...

I'm not saying that a USB adapter wouldn't be useful, but for your specific use case (which is pretty rare: using an external keyboard and mouse with your laptop) you shouldn't need an adapter at all. You should be able to connect to both through Bluetooth.

> You should be able to connect to both through Bluetooth.

Did I miss the news about charging devices over bluetooth?

You don't need to charge your keyboard and mouse from your computer; I'm assuming you have a USB-A power brick from your phone, tablet, etc. already that you can use to charge your stuff.

So, yet another device to carry around that used to be part of the functionality of a laptop.

If you were already carrying a 15" laptop plus full-size external keyboard plus mouse plus power brick for the laptop, a dongle is not much of a burden to add on. And many people who did that with USB-A machines tended to carry other accessories as well and end up with an external USB hub in the bag too.

I have a keyboard and mouse at my desk. I plug them into my laptop when I'm working at my desk. I don't carry them with me at all times, though, and I don't know many people who've ever done that.

No, not really, since you'd have to carry around a USB to Lightning charging cable even if your laptop had a standard USB-A port.

I installed BetterTouchTool on mine, and you can configure an action to run when sliding anywhere on the touchbar with 2, 3 or 4 fingers. I set 2 fingers to volume control and 4 fingers to brightness and that works pretty well, no need to look. I also make it display the time and battery percentage at all times, which is nice to have when an app is running full screen. BTT isn't free, but it's pretty cheap, worth it IMO.

BTT is so useful it ought to be bought by Apple and incorporated in the OS. Throw in the top 20 used presets as checkboxes and be done with it. It's the first thing I install when I set up a Mac.

I actually made the same comment about the volume touch bar when it came out... Another hidden Apple os interaction: if you have it set to slider you can just hit it and move your finger without lifting even if not 'hover' the slide area. Or you can change to the old mute, quite, loud buttons in settings

I'm fine with using the keyboard. I'm not fine how the keyboard fails all the time still and how unrepairable it is for an easy to break part.

Apple is moving more and more away from acura into mercedes car territory.

You touch and drag to change volume. Not sure how that could possibly be more clicks?

Depends on which OS you have. The touch bar behaves differently in Mojave than it did in Sierra. The mode I used in Sierra is no longer available in the Mojave, and I've had to re-learn the touch bar. First thing up, remove the damned Siri button so I don't accidentally hit it when reaching for the delete button.

Has anyone used Siri on the desktop? I tried once to set a timer with it, and it said it couldn’t. WTF Siri? You have a clock.

And then I never used it again.

I _can't_. "Hey Siri" picks up faster on my phone, and when the mac hears the acknowledgement chirp it shuts that down.

Ha! Did they seriously not come across this in testing? Blows my mind.

I'm not sure what you mean; Siri only activating on a single device at a time is absolutely a core design goal.

You can always click the circle I’m the upper right.

You can just edit the buttons on the Touch Bar if you don't want Siri on it. Also, I don't see any change in behavior with the Touch Bar in Mojave. Touch drag works on both brightness and volume just like before.

I often want 1 or 2 increments more volume. With real keys I just tap up volume once or twice. With touch bar I have to carefully slide it one or two volume units.

Tap hold and slide for volume and brightness. It’s faster than the old keys.

It’s terrible compared to the old way.

You click the sound icon, then the slide opens up, then you can either slide it or click one of the two icons.

It’s probably quicker to change the volume from one to ten this way, but 99% of my use cases for changing volume is for one or two steps, for which the slider absolutely sucks.

It’s some of the worst design I’ve ever seen for volume control, and the old system is some of the best.

I don't think you're quite understanding the trick the parent comment is trying to tell you.

You press your finger on the sound icon, and just start sliding without waiting. It's one fluid gestural motion. Try it out. It takes the same effort as tapping a physical button but gives you more fine grained control. Yes, it's something new and different from the way you're used to, but give it a chance.

Sliding still does not a simple tap, with tactile feedback, equate.

I'm aware I can do this. It still drives me nuts - and I have to agree with eksemplar when I think it is simply a serious step backwards in design and should be an option, not forced like the 2018 models.

The lack of tactile feedback is huge.

Take a MacBook with the function keys, and one with the touchbar. Then adjust the brightness or volume on both at the same time and the hand that operates the touchbar gets “lost” so easily

Still more work than quickly tapping once or twice. With the slider I have to carefully slide to get the exact amount, all without any tactical feedback.

Tactile feedback? What for? You have visual and audio feedback. After all, you are trying to set volume or brightness to a specific level...

You can just tap and slide at once. (Without releasing your finger) Its actually faster than with old buttons.

How is tapping and sliding easier than pressing a button once?

You don't need to lift your finger, which takes time. Just shift your finger left/right a little bit.

But that’s not faster.

The old way: click, you’re done. The new way: click, hold finger, slide, and you’re done.

Like I said, it’s faster to go from 1 to 10, but 99% of the times I use it, I’m just changing the volume by 1.

Hell, it’s easier for my brain to just click 10 times than to watch where the damn slider is too.

Ah, you're comparing it to the old hardware keys. I see your point.

Anything is possible in the Reality Distortion Field.

Another alternative is to simply flick the touch bar button.

you don't need to click and wait though, just tap and without lifting your finger immediately slide to adjust. If anything it's a super minor annoyance imo.

That interaction is not at all obvious. I've used the 2017 since they came out and have been tapping then lifting my finger every time to drag the slider.

My personal computer is a 2015 and my work is a 2017, and there are zero features from the 2017 that I prefer.

4k@60Hz. The MacBook Pro 2015 with Intel Iris (I don't know about the Radeon GPU) only supports 4k@30Hz, which is terrible.

(My wife has the 1st gen MacBook 12", which has the same downside.)

> only supports 4k@30Hz, which is terrible

Are you using the HDMI port? I'm using a 2015 with Iris and can run 4k@60Hz through the mini-DP.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT206587 shows that both 13" and 15" from 2015 should support 4k@60Hz.

I recently bought a used 2013 MBP; while Apple specs say it can only do 4k@30, the DisplayPort output is in fact capable of 4k@60.

Do you have to tweak anything to achieve this?

No, it worked out of the box on the 15" model.

The GPU must have a HDMI 2.0 output for 4k@60, and this is usually not present on all but the most recent laptops, producing the 30 Hz limitation.

On the other hand, DisplayPort 1.2 supports 4k@60. This is built into the Thunderbolt 2 ports on Macs, so as long as the GPU supports DP 1.2 it will work.

On my MBP (15"), the DP(Thunderbolt) + HDMI ports are wired directly to the Nvidia GPU. Parent mentioned his computer only had the Intel Iris graphics (13" model), which apparently can't do 4k@60 (so my previous comment was incorrect :( ).

All 2015 macbook pros (13", 15", with or without dedicated gpu) support 1 or 2 4K 60Hz displays on using a displayport 1.2 compatible monitor

My 2015 MBP drives two 4k monitors at 60hz just fine. Well, not just fine— sometimes it randomly forgets which monitor is which. But the GPU is powerful enough.

My 2017 13-inch nTB MBP is running 4k@60Hz just fine.

there is a patch you can apply to some kexts to get around this and support 4k@60hz

I was under the impression that this was a bandwidth issue for the HDMI port, so I'm curious to see how a kernel extension would get around this issue.


I came across this while looking to see if I could buy a 4k display for my 12" Macbook (2nd gen.). My brief reading of it implied that it would be possible to drive it at 60hz. but maybe you are correct.

Looks like it might require an extra graphics card, or something like that? I haven't looked into it in detail, but it doesn't look like this thing works on a MacBook.

LG 4K over usb-c

They are really cheap used or refurb

I have an early 2009 17" mac book pro - still the best one out there. Running great (now on an SSD), although stuck at El Capitan. On 2nd display and 3rd battery, but still humming along. Wish they'd bring back the 17", with tons of ports and no touch bar.

There are patches for the OS if you want to run something more recent.

My faith in Apple would be redeemed if they actually lived up to their hype. LG makes 15inch metal cased laptop that weights 2.1 lbs (specs similar to a 15" MBP but weighs less then a Macbook Air). Apple should be able to do the same.

I also recently got a 2018 MBA to try replace my 2014 MBP but unfortunately my eyes suck so 13 inches is turning out to be an issue. It's not enough screen space to do my normal dev without having to be constantly opening and closing panes.

Examples would be trying to us VSCode with 2 panes and the project panel open. The 2 panes are two small so I have to keep opening and closing the project panel anytime I want to switch files.

Another example is trying to debug JavaScript I need both the page and the devtools visible and there just isn't enough screen real estate to do it comfortably.

Jacking up the scaled rez to 1680 mode I get my space back but my eyes aren't good enough to focus at that rez

It is also super notably slower than my 2014 MBP. As an example if I run pretty much any WebGL page and try to view a detailed PDF in another window in the browser it's practically unusable. My 2014 MBP had no issues multi-tasking.

Also connect it to a 30inch 4k monitor at my office and it just doesn't feel up do it. Just switching apps often takes long enough it feels super sluggish.

If Apple would get rid of the touch bar I'd have gotten the MBP again though am really loving the weight so really disappointed Apple can't match or beat LG in that.

I accidentally dropped my work 2015 MBP a few months back and broke the screen. Actually, I'm not even certain the screen was dead, but the display wouldn't turn on any more. Unfortunately, work wouldn't let me keep/fix it (which is super annoying), but they did offer me the choice of a new MBP or a slightly loved older 2015 MBP. I chose the latter.

For my home laptop, I'm finally getting around to replacing my mid-2009 MBP and decided to go with a Lenovo X1 Carbon Extreme. I'm so annoyed at Apple at this point that I figure it's time to go back and give Linux another shot.

Linux support on laptops is much more mature than it was 5 years ago. I'd still avoid anything with an nVidia Optimus setup, but Intel graphics has had decent drivers on Linux for a long time now.

I was a little worried about hardware support, so I bought a Dell laptop with Ubuntu pre-installed. Pretty much everything worked out of the box. But my friends tell me that the Linux experience is good with other laptops too.

I prefer everything about my 2018 to the 2012-2015 generation, keyboard included, but I can see how the lack of ports would be a bummer to some people. I hook it up to a dock and LG 5K at work though, so it's not an issue.

They really need to stop gauging for memory upgrades. It’s honestly obscene what they charge to get a bigger hard drive.

It's more obscene that they negatively impact the environment and artificially limit the lifespan of the devices by soldering the memory and the hard drive.

I'm happy with my MBP 2018. I'm neutral to the touch bar, keyboard, big touchpad. I don't see them neither as a nuisance nor a useful innovation. We can argue about details but it's a great machine. I don't see myself switching to a non-apple laptop yet.

Did you 'upgrade' from a 2015 model? I'm asking because I still happily use that model and can't see myself switching just yet.

Yes! For our latest round of machines we bought for our team were refurbished 2015 MBPs. A great machine.

(ed: spelling)

I do enjoy having the TouchID but I can live without everything else on my 2017 MBP.

This is why I upgraded from a 2010 thinpad to a 2017 macbook air. Sure for a designer this screen might suck but I do music and web development. Turns out having usb A ports built in is very very handy when you can just plug your DJ and midi controllers straight into the laptop instead of diving into dongle hell. It still has the amazing magnetic charger, sure not usb C but its more robust when you're playing a live show compared to a small, potentially easy to break usb c slot when you're playing in a nightclub with poor lighting where its easy for someone to step on your power cable by mistake.

The display in the 2017 MBA is atrocious, and the processors are really old at this point. USB-C is better than magsafe at this point, because charger interchangeability is amazing, and it doesn't lock into laptops like the old barrel jack connectors. It lets go when needed without damage in my experience. Durability hasn't been a problem on a single USB-C device that I own. Do you not think smartphones get abused more than laptops? Yet the port continues working fine.

Why not just get a decent Windows laptop, if you want nice port selection? The X1 Carbon is incredible, while Dell, Microsoft, and more offer yet other options. If you truly love MagSafe, the Microsoft Surface series offers magnetic charge connectors, good displays, and regular USB.

If you wanted a laptop from 2014, there were plenty of ways to get one without paying Apple their premium price.

It's not just about port durability. USB-C disengages easier than barrel jacks, but it's still often enough to pull the laptop off the desk/table. Magsafe 1&2 let go without moving the laptop much, meaning it's very unlikely to be knocked off.

If someone is that concerned, Amazon is full of magnetic breakaway adapters for USB-C, bringing MagSafe into the USB-C era. I also mentioned the Surface, which uses a MagSafe-like connector.

I had noted those magnetic connectors over at AliExpress, e.g. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Micro-USB-Magnetic-Cable-Qui...

Any cons to using them like MagSafe?

Yeah, but they don't really seem to work well at all. A friend of mine who works in IT bought a bunch of these to test for work laptops, according to him they are all basically crap, with maybe one or two half decent. And they don't have the handy charging light indicator either, like on the old magsafe.

Sadly, none of them are any good. :( Read the reviews for details.

This. If I could give you more points, I would. Enough said. Also take back the old Final Cut Pro to really compete with Adobe, and some of the quality of life features they used to have, but oversimplified away.

Agreed, I want my late 2014 13 inch Macbook Pro with the latest hardware. Also:

- swap the SD port for UBC C (1 regular USB; 2 USB C) - move the microphone from the side next to the camera (when I'm talking to someone a slightest move makes loud noise for the other person) - round the front edge (next to the trackpad) - add 0.5mm "jump" ot the keys

If someone would make that with OS X or Ubuntu I'd buy it on the spot.

Stuff all that new hardware into an old Lombard case, with two removable battery bays (10 hours of life on a pair, and hot swappable) and great airflow, and I'd be happy as a clam.


That was my first laptop. I had a spare battery and the DVD that could be swapped out as well. I even had an Orinoco Gold express card for wifi. Built an antenna from a Pringles can to go war driving with that guy too. Fond memories, but there are not so fond memories of it weighing like 50lbs or something. I know I exaggerate, but the newer models really feel like a feather in comparison.

I'm 2015 and 2018 and I generally agree... with one exception, the 2018 is a little lighter which I do prefer. But, I'd go back in a heartbeat if that meant I could have the better keyboard and some more universal ports. Yes, I'll use USB-C for a lot of stuff and continue to buy new USB-C devices. But that zero-year transition time was a little short.

I could not agree more! I want the glowing apple light on the back, to return though.

FaceID on the Mac would be a cool addition. Lighter would be nice.

> Lighter would be nice.

It's already beyond the point of where "lighter would be nice". Now "lighter" only means "we'll take all the capabilities you care about and all the ports you need away".

I wish Apple stopped with their obsession on "lighter and thinner".

I wish they differentiated the lines on the priority. Make the "MacBook" line super light (go ahead and introduce a 15" one too). Make the "MacBook Pro" line super performant.

It comes down to preference. Personally, I love thinner and lighter. I like using a machine that feels premium.

Nooo don't make it lighter! I want it heavier! Put more batteries or cooling in it!

And and and 64GB of RAM. Or at least 32!

The 2018 model is upgradable to 32gb.

A few guys at work got the new MBP and I've heard nothing but complaints (and one return due to a defective unit).

My personal MBP circa 2014 is still chugging along wonderfully and will probably continue to do so until Apple comes up with something better.

I have an early 2011 mbp, swapped the hdd for an ssd, got 16 GB of Ram and a new battery and the only thing I'd like is a higher res screen. Other than that the thing is pretty perfect. As a bonus I can still read and burn DVDs.

I'm using a 2012 retina and it's way better than anything they make now.

I had been using a 2016 MBP at work and couldn't take it with me. Booted up my old 2011 MBP non-retina and it was painfully slow. 5min startup and a lot of programs completely unusable.

Took me all of 10min to swap out the HDD for an SSD and 2x2gb RAM for 2x8gb RAM (and cost about $100). Now I don't notice any difference for normal web development/light design work between the new and old machines.

Sure - the 2011 is a lot heavier and the screen is rubbish, but I love that keyboard and the trackpad is perfectly sized for me.

I reaaaally like my 2012 nonretina MBP. except it's heavy and I bike to work

I'd like to keep the TouchID without touchbar, but what I really want is shortpassword+touchid (failing back to longpassword) everywhere they currently only support longpaswordpassword||touchid.

I ditched the 2012 for a lenovo p50 with 8 cores and 32GB of Ram. I am never going back. I don't get the obsession with apple.

You're not the first to say this but it's never going to happen. Apple is not going back. USB-C, smaller batteries, et al.

Funny how true that is. While they are at it, make the new iPhone the 2019 iPhone and simply put the headphone jack back.

While I have not upgraded my 6S Plus because it has the headphone jack, it is hard to make a water tight device when the users keep asking for holes to be put into the case.

Samsung, LG, and others can make phones with both headphone jacks and water resistance, but that's obviously not the real reason that Apple removed it. (The iPad Pro is huge, not water resistant, and doesn't have one either.)

Number of users asking for headphone jack >>> Users asking for waterproof phones.

Besides, it’s not an excuse. Samsung can design a waterproof phone with headphone jack. Why can’t Apple?

>> Number of users asking for headphone jack >>> Users asking for waterproof phones.

As much I as a musician, who can't stand the unplayable latency of bluetooth headphones with any of my daily drivers, such as Garageband, and has invested in extremely high-quality headphones with cables, would take the headphone jack over a waterproof phone in a heartbeat; I have to say [citation needed]...

That's a bold statement to make. While I'd prefer a headphone jack, due to my particular use case, most of my friends have or have no problem with using wireless headphones, and many of them have also lost phones or other electronics to even a small amount of water in the wrong place.

I went back home 2 weeks ago. My home is not part of the first world bubble that some people live in.

Obviously this just anecdata but let me tell you that wireless headphones/earbuds have not even been a consideration for most people. Heck, even first world countries have lots of people still using wired earbuds for most use cases.

I heard lots of grumbling about the loss of headphone jacks. I never even once heard someone say "this is not waterproof? I won't buy it!"

Totally agree. I upgraded my mid-2014 Macbook Pro with new battery and SM961 SSD. Now I feel like Steve Jobs is back.

Was that without the force touch trackpad? gotta say i enjoy that one more than the previous one, otherwise I agree

2010 17 inches Macbook Pro. This machine is a tank. Still using it. Still productive.

I upgraded my 2016 MBP w/Touch Bar to a ThinkPad P1.

For the same price, I get a far superior machine.

For less than what I paid for the maxed out '16 MBP I get:

* Hexacore Xeon CPU

* 64GB of RAM


* Nvidia Quadro P2000.

* a keyboard that is nice to type on again, instead of the butterfly SH!T that is on the 2016+ models.

I had concerns about switching my dev workflow from macOS to Windows 10, but WSL is fantastic.

Can't help but think Apple doesn't make macOS a priority anymore. The experience with High Sierra was just the straw that broke the camels back.

I sold my MBP for much less than what I used to get on resale. They don't hold their value like they used to. I wonder if this is lost on Apple management. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If anyone is thinking about switching from macOS to Windows… unless you're doing {mac,i,watch}OS dev, I say jump on in. The water is nice.

Sorry, but Windows 10 is absolute dogshit. Even if you're using a Linux compatibility layer, you're still running a Windows host and being subjected to all the bullshit that comes with it including spying, forced updates (bringing forced restarts!), ads, and general worse performance.

Luckily, it takes all of 30 minutes to just wipe your hard drive and install Ubuntu on your ThinkPad and you'd be much better off for it.

> Luckily, it takes all of 30 minutes to just wipe your hard drive and install Ubuntu on your ThinkPad and you'd be much better off for it.

But how long it takes to fix all drivers and other Linux issues (WiFi, sounds, video, mouse...)?

I used a few Linux versions last year and none could do the switch window feature without breaking (alt tab on Windows).

Everything in Linux worked out of the box for me. I only had to click a checkbox saying I wanted to use Nvidia proprietary drivers.

Meanwhile, installing Windows is a pain in the ass. I had to go to Realtek's site on a separate machine to get ethernet drivers before I could even use the internet. Then I had to go to Nvidia's site to get the GPU driver. Rinse and repeat for various exes on various sites for everything you need. Package management is a joke, so good luck installing all the software you need since you're about to go on a scavenger hunt through somewhat questionable download sites. Then spend hours trying to disable all the spying and forced updates, only for your settings to get reset in the next big release.

> I used a few Linux versions last year and none could do the switch window feature without breaking (alt tab on Windows).

This is Windows specific and completely idiotic IMHO. Just like on macOS you can switch windows belonging to a single application with a certain key combination (in Gnome it's Alt + the key left to the 1 key).

Of course it's a hassle to fix some driver issues, although this has drastically improved over the last 10 years. These days it's usually more firmware that leaves you hanging.

But at least I don't have to jump through a ton of hoops to get the most basic development software installed. Unless you do Windows specific development or you're forced by your corporate environment I don't really see any advantages to Windows.

It will all work out of the box. :)

"it takes all of 30 minutes to just wipe your hard drive and install Ubuntu on your ThinkPad and you'd be much better off for it" is a VERY incomplete picture.

You're leaving out the part where you're spending countless hours figuring out how to make $TASK work on Linux (i.e. scan + OCR, photo editing, accounting, pivot tables in a spreadsheet, to name a few examples) with any number of WORKAROUNDS, rather than a it-works-out-of-the-box experience because software exists for Windows already, that works out of the box.

You might want to deal with getting those workarounds going, because you're a purist, or you're in your 20s, and have nothing but time on your hands.

I'm 45, have a family I want to spend time with. I don't have time for that shit anymore. I want things to work and stay out of my way.

macOS used to be that good. I don't feel like it is any more.

Windows 10 has been that good, here. I turn off the telemetry. I don't know where you've seen ads. I get no ads. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


First off, you're not being spied on any more w/ Windows than you are on a Mac--the NSA doesn't give a crap about what kind of computer you use.

Updates are only "forced" if you choose them to be, otherwise you can accept/decline updates.

There are NO ads. Zero.

Worse performance than what? In what? In which application? I use Excel all the time and I recently used it on a Mac and thought about killing myself.

You can pause updates for 35 days and I have not seen any ads yet in my win10 pro. Restarting a Laptop/Desktop every 35 days is not too bad.

I'm still sitting on my Macbook pro 2012 (non-retina). I have postponed upgrading to new macbook for the last 2 years (16gb ram, 2x250GB SDD in raid-0) During that time I easily replaced battery, replaced broken LCD, replaced broken hdd. However I'm slowly considering moving to Thinkpad P1 because I don't see any macbook that would be suitable for me.

The biggest concert is I'm an iOS developer. I consider to move to programming either Android or cross-platform with Qt framework. Then either jailbreak my iphone XS and compile code on it (iphone XS is more powerfull than my macbook i7) or go virtual machine or hackintosh road just to do app sideloading while testing or real iphone devices. Or switch even to android device.

I really like Thinkpad P1 that it gives lots of room for future upgrades with 2x ram slots and 2x m.2 ssd slots so I don't need to max out my rams or ssd now.

The final straw for me on new macbooks is that they soldered SSD and even removed backup port. I'm contracting so I'm loosing money if I have to wait 2 weeks for repairs. Besides I often work from developing countries in south east asia - where you would have to wait even longer instead of picking up off-the-shelf ram or ssd. Keyboard reliability issue also scares me a lot in new macbooks.

I’m considering a Mac mini. For portability, “just” remote into it with an iOS hdmi wireless adapter. Even that still feels like I’m being fleeced by Apple, but you do get better hardware for the buck.

WSL is still missing a lot of stuff. For example, there's no straightforward way to mount NFS shares in the Linux environment. I'm not even sure if it's possible, last I checked I don't think it is. It's a huge issue for me since I connect to some NFS shares for development.

From my time with it, I ultimately concluded that I'd be better off just running Linux. If I had to use Windows, I'd setup a VM and avoid using WSL.

I absolutely despise Windows 10. I only deal with it for some gaming. What is your development workflow like? Any terminal? When I used the Ubuntu subsystem or whatever they call it, it was so slow pulling down some dependencies that it was unusable.

I also do almost all of my development on Windows 10 these days after years on Linux and find that it basically just works for almost all cases. For terminal I mostly use Cmder and Msys2, when not using WSL.

As to performance problems with regards to WSL and disc IO, there has been problems with how Windows AV software's real time virus protection interacts with WSL. Adding an exclusion to the part of the file system used by WSL should give a significant performance increase.

I just recently built a PC with Windows in it and started using it for development (Ruby, NodeJS, Python, Ionic). Some of my experiences:

- Scoop is "ok" but not on par with homebrew.

- Cmder is not on par with iTerm2 (CMD+D, CMD+Shift+D, CMD+T)

- Powershell terminal is utter crap

- WSL is just OK but still the integration is not that good

- VSCode works well

- Vagrant does not work that well. In general setting up the PATHs is clumsy

- Working with Ruby/rbenv or NodeJS/NPM is clumsy

- I miss Cmd+Space for calculator. using Windows Key + entering the formula doesn't work half the time

- Ninite is a godsend, but nowadays lacks several programs

- I love Paint ... why doesn't OSX have a similar paint program (I have to download Paint from sf.net)

- I loved the Windows spanned volume HDD. I had 7 plate-disks that I installed in my ATX tower and made one 1Gb disk with all of them, quite easily

- Impressed (with Windows) that several old hardware that I dug from a box (old webcam, old usb WiFi, old BlueTooth) worked as soon as I connected them.

There is a lot of stuff that I am still getting used to, but in general, although my experience doing development in Windows "works" it is still somewhat painful, while compared to OSX.

OTOH, I installed ubuntu on the same Machine, and god I removed it after 2 hours of tinkering here and there (to make work multiple monitors, wireless, bluetooth, webcam, stuff not working after resume-after-sleep). I was sad because I really like bash (that was my "safe place" when I first started to use Mac).

And regarding the Cmder <--> iTerm2 comparison…

Ctrl-Shift-E and Ctrl-Shift-O? (split windows)

Ctrl-T to create new tabs? (create new tabs)

Your last point is exactly what I wanted to communicate to the first commenter. Lots of tinkering needed to get even close to the same functionality. That is exactly the opposite of "works out of the box".

For whatever reason installing via apt or maybe IO in general is slow. AFAIK they are working on it.

But CPU intensive tasks should be be similar to host system.

How is WSL working out so far?

I had a Sufrace Pro 4 for about a year, until I ditched it for a Dell XPS 13 running Linux (the Surface wouldn't run Linux properly). It happened when the x-org server suddenly stopped supporting retina/high DPI, and I couldn't figure it out after a couple of hours of fiddling. Definitely not something I want in my life.

The reason I needed an x-org server is that I use IntelliJ for my editing, and it doesn't support running stuff in WSL. So I had to run IntelliJ under WSL too, meaning I had to run an x-org server on the win10 side. It did work quite well really, except from the high DPI issue. And bad file system performance..

Currently experimenting working directly on win10 for a side project, that works quit well, actually. The tech stack is Rust and ClojureScript, both seems to work fine on windows so far at least.

I ordered a machine similar to that a few days ago. Went with the i7, 64gb of ram, Nvidia 1050 ti, and 1tb of nvme ssds. Cost me only $2700, which is significantly less than what I'd get with a mbp. I'm pretty confident that I can swap over to Linux if I really need to, but I doubt that will be necessary. I'm going to be doing a lot of work with ionic, android, and virtual machines, nothing too crazy.

I also though about going with one of the system76 machines, but the terrible battery life spooked me away. I'll probably still get one early next year, though.

Without BSD underneath, I wouldn’t take Windows seriously for dev outside of .NET

I would love to hear more!

1. How did you set it all up?

2. What stack are you using?

3. Do you have to use (gasp) Docker?

4. Performance issues?

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