Ask HN: Should I Be Ashamed to Love JavaScript?

[gitgud]

[tomcam]

Of course not, and it's sure as hell not the laughingstock of hundreds of thousands of developers who make a living knowing it.

Javascript is a big, sprawling, and (from day 1) very useful language. Like English, it has many many flaws and has many antecedents. Like English, it's evolved to be highly functional. The last two versions are first rate languages. The runtime environments (browsers, compilers, etc.) are among the most sophisticated, comprehensive pieces of software passionately maintained by some of the smartest people in the world working in friendly competition, and we don't have to pay a red cent for their work product.

I started programming in 1983, so about 7 years after the microcomputer took off. The very first version of Javascript was a shaggy dog but it was far more capable than interpeters selling for hundreds of dollars at that time.

The pedants who bitch about Javascript should get over themselves. I wish my life had so few problems that I could spend my precious time on this planet denigrating something given to me and every browser user for free.

[jacob019]

I was always a JS hater. I mostly work with python these days, but JS is required for UI development. Since I am targeting internal apps where we control the browser, I get to use the latest ES6 features without polyfills. I have to say that JS has come a long way, and some of the latest features are pretty awesome. Requests is so much more pleasant to work with that the old XMLHttpRequest, imports are great, the fat arrow has made my life so much easier, and the modern reactive frameworks are amazing. Sometimes I find myself wishing we had certain things in python, the regex syntax is more elegant and doesn't feel like a hack. And compared to Python, concurrency takes less effort. It's certainly easier to write spaghetti code in JS, but you can write bad code in any language. It's truly amazing what a flexible computing environment the modern browser has become.

[triplee]

No. You shouldn't be ashamed of ANY language or technology, as long as you feel it's appropriate for doing whatever problem is put in front of you.

Also remember that at various times, PHP, Ruby, Python, Perl, COBOL, ColdFusion, literally anything made by Microsoft, Java, and countless other languages that solved plenty of interesting problems and both led to people getting paid but also improving and creating other things have been laughed at.

As a converse, plenty of people have made absolute garbage in any number of open source frameworks, "sexy" languages du jour, etc. either because they were working alone and didn't think they needed help or what they were working on wasn't remotely suited to the tool.

Ignore the haters. It's usually gatekeeping coming from lack of confidence and fear of real competition due to years of poor attitudes in our industry on what makes a "real programmer".

[atestu]

I love it too. To me, Javascript is like my phone camera. Sure, DSLRs take better pictures but the best camera is the one that's always with me, and that's Javascript.

[duhi88 → atestu]

I like that analogy.

[alan_wade]

I got into programming because I want to make cool stuff, not because I want to contemplate the transcendent beauty of pure functions and elegant code.

JavaScript is what enables me to make stuff I couldn't make with the same amount of time/effort using any other tool I came across.

Do I wish I could do the same stuff using Racket? Sure, I guess. But in the world I live in, JS is the best tool I could find for doing what I want.

Also maybe it's just me, but I've been programming for 5 years, and I haven't actually ever felt that frustrated or inadequate when programming JS, I like it no less than python.

I got used to looking down on JavaScript as a "bad" language from reading snarky comments made by people who, I suspect, also jumped on the hate train because they've heard others talking shit about it. I'm not a computer scientist, maybe there are some legitemate reasons to dislike JS, but I don't think they're serious enough to warrant all the hate it gets in programming community, I'm guessing it's mostly a social phenomena.

At least personally I haven't run into things that make me dislike it, I have a lot of fun using it.

[drinchev]

Although most of the replies will be "No, because <REASON...>", what is more important is to find the reason that suits yourself. You can of course find :

- Libraries that makes it efficient ;

- Plenty of styleguides / do / don't rules which makes it tidy ;

- TypeScript, where JS becomes statically typed ;

- Find beginners in any other languages, although "full of beginners" is actually positive, rather than negative.

- You can feel like a real pro if you write C / C++, but you will rarely be hired to make a REST API with that stack and you will not be hired to create a web app with it. So your statement might be more accurate if you say "Web development is downplayed as a newb", which is obviously wrong. Sure I would not recommend to write a database based on NodeJS or a search engine, or a space shuttle program, or a ... you name it, but you can't write with anything else ( at least serious ) than JavaScript or something that compiles to JS, for web development.

- Cool is also relative. I was writing Perl for 6 years, before I run out of job prospects and switched to NodeJS.

[notamy]

You should use the tools that work for you, and not be ashamed of that. Getting caught up in "X is cooler than Y" "X said that Y is better than Z for everything" etc. is counterproductive. Other people's opinions won't (necessarily) be right for you.

[RandomGuyDTB]

A programming language is like a type of art. Some people love oil painting, some people hate it, some people don't know how to get the colors to mix. Some people hate using a pen for art. I think it's just subjective.

[jgrahamc]

No, you should not. If you have mastered the tools you are using then you should be proud of your ability and your ability to get things done. Languages get laughed at over time and JavaScript is no exception. It's also amazingly popular. Personally, I regularly use Perl for small jobs, that's a language that gets ridiculed but I'm super fluent in it. I also write things in C, C++, Go, ...

The only reason to be ashamed would be if you only program in JavaScript and can't imagine ever using anything else. Learn many languages, master some, use different languages for different problems.

[maze-le]

No, you shouldn't. And don't listen to people trying to shame you because of it.

>> It's inefficient

Well, its at least as efficient as python or ruby (I think its even slightly better). If you work on the backend side, and performance is the main goal, there are other technologies better suited: Go, C#, haskell

A problem might be the concurrency model, but that is an entirely different topic.

>> messy

Depends on your ability to organize code. Its not that much different than other technologies, really.

>> not typechecked

True, but there are other dynamically typed languages... People implement thing in them too. And there is always typescript, if you are interested in working typesafe.

>> full of beginners...

Everyone was a 'beginner' at some time in their life...

>> Maybe I feel like it's too easy compared to other languages and is downplayed as a newb language...

There are simple aspects of the language, but take a look at e.g.: Promises[0] or the Prototype inheritance chain[1] and tell me again that it is simple... ;-)

[0]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...

[1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Inhe...

[jowiar]

When someone does the denegrating you mention (and folks do), they go on my “I’ll never work with them” list. I’ve had folks do it in an interview and it’s an immediate no-hire.

JS is a tool, just like on the any other. It has some big pluses, and some annoying “WTFs”, but today, it’s a more-than-solid default answer to “What should I write my webapp in”.

[xtracto]

15 years ago that was PHP...

A language is not something you should be ashamed of. You should learn more than one though, so that you understand the advantages and disadvantages of different paradigms and implementations.

Should you be ashamed of loving your hammer? NO, but you should be ashamed of using your hammer to unscrew screws.

[sargun]

I used to make fun of JavaScript. I hated JavaScript, it was confusing (wtf is prototype?), easy to screw up in, and didn’t have a real concurrency model.

But then I realized this didn’t matter. The JavaScript community is was evolving at a ridiculous rate. These weaknesses slowly left their blood, and honestly, now I’m left envious. I enjoy writing Flow, poking around with new ideas like async / await, and envy the sheer performance that JavaScript has attained.

I still find JavaScript and often the people associated with JavaScript to be hard to like at times, but it’s a language with great possibilities.

[Nikkau]

> I feel like JavaScript is the laughing stock of the programming community sometimes...

Don't worry, it's PHP.

[sbilstein]

I was mostly in the Scala/Java world for a long time and laughed at the JS community’s obsession with reinventing things. Somehow I ended up using Node on every side project over the years because it was pretty easy to work with.

Fast-forward to now...I’ve decided to build my startup on typescript and node. I find the easy sharing of libraries and types across frontend and backend very liberating.

TS/ES6 are mature and run everywhere. Easy for beginners but functional enough for me. It’s taken me a while but I love JavaScript.

[hawski]

Programming languages will not love you back. Maybe it's nothing to be ashamed about, although it seems a bit silly for me. I may take the word "love" too serious, but that's also how I feel you are taking your relationship with a glorified screwdriver.

In case of JavaScript I have one reservation, that by enabling adtech it's helping to screw other people on their own computers. Of course it could be some other language, it's not like JavaScript is inherently for this purpose alone.

[sick_of_web_dev]

It's not as bad as PHP but yeah JavaScript or rather the community around it is largely made up of sub-par web developers (you, oh dear reader are of course the exception). Obviously you will not find as many clueless people in say embedded software development or even electrical engineering as these require a certein set of requisite skills and theory whereas every idiot can call themselves a web developer.

But yeah as long as you enjoy what you're doing, you shouldn't worry about it :)

[drivingmenuts → sick_of_web_dev]

As a PHP programmer, I should probably resent some part of your answer, so consider it pro-forma resented.

OTOH, I get paid to work with PHP, so really, I don't worry about what other people think of it.

[gitgud → sick_of_web_dev]

@sick_of_web_dev you sound a little biased against Web Developers ;)

[jillav]

No you shouldn't be ashamed.

Most of the people I met who denigrated javascript with a blazing hate didn't fully understand its underlying concepts. They were trying to use it like C or something else. Which can lead to frustration.

You should take pride in being good with your tool, understanding how it's designed and how to use it to build awesome stuff.

And yes, it's always a good idea to expand one's skill set. Handling javascript like a boss is one of those skills that a today's programmer can be proud of.

[sonofgod]

I think Javascript's ubiquity -- it has an implementation in every browser -- is the cause of much of its hatred. No one hates on SNOBOL because it's been superseded and no-one uses it; but if you're wanting to interface with the web, there's no other first-class langugage, everything else transpiles to JavaScript.

I think an opinionated JavaScript interpreter which considered the worst elements of JavaScript to literally be bugs (e.g. single equals) would help immensely...

[andymoe]

No, it’s the future and is currently going through a renaissance. Full stack js is especially compelling and productive.

[kgraves]

No. if you use JavaScript and you like it that's fine, you shouldn't be ashamed of it.

[randiantech]

Javascript has evolved enough during these years to a point that is no longer a "joke". Theres yet some kind of inertia from past, when JS was basically a form validation language, but current state of language is a complete different story.

[gitgud → randiantech]

Interesting, I guess it's still haunted by its past...

[rjkennedy98]

The functional programming community loves it, especially with the introduction of ES6.

[erikpukinskis → rjkennedy98]

ES6 is the worst thing that ever happened to JavaScript.

JavaScript's one best attribute was that it would run on any device. No longer true.

It's second best attribute was a simple threading model. Promises and async wrecked that.

The third best attribute was it was easy to learn. But in ES6 there are twice as many control structures to learn, with no added power. =>, class, const, etc. They just add more things to think about, without solving any problems.

Well, except that people didn't like learning closures and prototypes. And now they don't have to. So you can program in JavaScript now without learning it if you want.

And you don't have to write the word "function" and "this" a lot. So you save 2% on code size.

ES5 Forever.

[jacob019 → erikpukinskis]

Love it or hate it ES6 is here to stay. I for one love it.

[flavio81 → jacob019]

Still no integers,

no strict typing,

no sane module system.

[jacob019 → flavio81]

ES6 imports works well. I've been working on a project that uses them extensively and it's really improved the organization and structure.

[cyberprunes]

My advice as an internet nobody:

Don't worry about that dumb crap. JS is a good language. It's come a long way since its dark early days.

People who shit on JS and on those that like it are usually not worth your time. I find those people are more interested in displaying their intellect or superiority by being condescending. It's not helpful.

Read and watch Douglas Crockford if you haven't. He has extracted the best aspects of Javascript to focus on. If you take his advice then I believe you will find JS to be a very good companion.

Just don't let JS be your only language. No language should be your only language.

[biaib]

Back in about 2005, I hated javascript. In hindsight, what I hated was cross browser development and developpers messing webpages with javascript (alerts, popups, javascript "links" ...). I used noScript intensively (always unless forced otherwise), and it made the web better. How not to think javascript is a shame, then ?. Javascript wasn't understood well at the time, and I guess still isn't by most people. Just learn to understand it it's awesome. So, no.

[blattimwind]

No need to kinkshame people, even if their kink is JavaScript.

[mschaef]

JS is not without its problems, but it has attracted both a huge amount of mindshare and corporate investment over the last twenty years. Those both go a long way towards fixing many of the initial problems of the language.

While it isn't the language I'd have necessarily chosen to be as widespread as it it, the industry could have wound up making a far worse choice, and I'm grateful it didn't.

[topkai22]

Nope, it’s improved a lot and approaches greatness for the reasons you mention.

It still drives ME crazy because it lets many of my colleagues produce unreadable hard to understand spaghetti code in a way I don’t see with more structured (and tool friendly) languages like C#, Java, or purer functional languages, but well written JavaScript can be a delight.

[EyLuismi]

You do you. Don't give a f*ck about what others think. Every programming language has its pros and cons and all of them are beautiful in its own way.

Even brainfuck is beautiful, maybe is not productive, but its unique.

Don't waste your time worrying about that even if there is not market, if you really like a language you will find a job if thats what you want.

[ninjakeyboard]

Javascript has gotten a lot better. IMO there are nicer languages to swoon over but it's fine to love JS too :)

[julianozen]

Nope! All language/technologies are tools. Developers have (lots) of opinions but at the end of the day all of these things exist to solve user and business problems. JavaScript does both effectively

It is however useful to have a critical eye so that one can assess what is the right tool for a particular job.

[janpot]

I love JavaScript. A good craftsman never blames his tools.

[gnoirzox]

> It's inefficient, messy, not typechecked, full of beginners...

Well PHP is worth on those stuff..

As long as you can make stuff happen with it, I guess that's fine..

[z_]

Yes.

[crawdog]

As long as it isn't PHP you should be ok...

[kgwxd]

Sounds like what you love is the widespread support and ease of deployment, which aren't properties of the language itself.

[v00d0]

Javascript, my friend, is like english: Easy to learn, Hard to master. Don't be ashamed only if you are good at it.

[blattimwind → v00d0]

> Don't be ashamed only if you are good at it.

Not sure if intentional pun

[fucking_tragedy]

ES6+ eased a lot of pain around writing Javascript. It's actually a very nice language from a user standpoint.

[davman]

At least it isn't VB.