> "We don't get enough sleep, and we are not going to "change our ways" because there are already too few hours in most people's days to do things they enjoy. Call it a sad fact of life because that's what it is"
This honestly is spot on the way I think about it - I can sleep early, but who benefits from my day to day learning as an adult? My employer maybe? Me in some minor long term ways?
Or I can stay up and do things I enjoy, wake myself up with an alarm every day and consume enough caffeine to bridge the gap. This way, I get more enjoyment out of my life in a very direct and measurable way.
If 5-6 hours of sleep a night is enough to get paid, I'm not going to make a sacrifice that will cost me personally.
Someone else already recommended "Why We Sleep" by the premier sleep researcher in the field, and I highly suggest you get it. Here is a passage from it that should make you rethink the entire rationale you are using to shortchange yourself of sleep:
"Routinely sleeping less than six or seven hours a night demolishes your immune system, more than doubling your risk of cancer. Insufficient sleep is a key lifestyle factor determining whether or not you will develop Alzheimer’s disease. Inadequate sleep—even moderate reductions for just one week—disrupts blood sugar levels so profoundly that you would be classified as pre-diabetic. Short sleeping increases the likelihood of your coronary arteries becoming blocked and brittle, setting you on a path toward cardiovascular disease, stroke, and congestive heart failure. Fitting Charlotte Brontë’s prophetic wisdom that “a ruffled mind makes a restless pillow,” sleep disruption further contributes to all major psychiatric conditions, including depression, anxiety, and suicidality."
The book isn't so much about "why we sleep" but rather "why you should sleep more" – 350 pages of Walker telling you about study after study after study after study comparing well-slept to underslept people, and all of the afflictions the latter suffer from, often without even noticing it (and the consequences for industry and society).
While I found his contrived writing style annoying at times, the content is the kind of eye-opening that makes you want to buy a dozen copies just to give to your family and friends.
> often without even noticing it (and the consequences for industry and society).
I think sleep deprivation can become addictive. Some people don't seem to get, or gets used to, the despair and come to enjoy the single minded numbness to the point where it is actually uncomfortable for them to sleep well and come out of 'survival mode'.
As someone who has suffered with depression and massive panic anxiety disorder, I can absolute say that, yes, being sleep deprived actually helped a lot. A tired mind has no energy to wander.
It's not the same. Bipolar folks get a mood lift from sleep deprivation. We actually feel less tired. The only way I know I should be more tired is that my legs feel it, even as my brain is racing.
But then, the elevated mood begets more sleep deprivation and soon you're euphoric, reckless and finally manic as hell.
In a way, bipolar mania is like being addicted to yourself.
Ever so slight word of caution, my reading this book coincided with a period where I wasn’t sleeping very well for various reasons, and I think the book actually made it worse as I was more worried about the detrimental effects of my poor night’s sleep due to what I’d read, so I stopped reading it! I’ve heard the same anecdotally from a couple of other people too.
That said, I think it is a very important book, and now I’ve hopefully resolved my sleep issue (with thanks to some of the comments on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16671944 - primarily the advice about having a regular “sleep schedule”) I look forward to finishing it!
And if early death doesn't scare you enough, he also mentioned that you're measurably less attractive when you haven't had enough sleep. I recall the study was based on having people rate the attractiveness of participants, in some pictures they had slept well, in some they hadn't, and the attractiveness score of those who had recently slept poorly was lower.
I was going through this patch where I had not slept well for a couple weeks and happened to be at the doctor's office for a checkup. My blood pressure came back 135/80, when normally am at 110/70. The doctor asked me if I was stressed, frankly I was not, nor was I sick, and regular with eating clean and working out. I realized that it was sleep deprivation.
I think the sad thing is that people take this to mean, "block off more time to sleep" when much, much more common is the issue that we're in civilized society. Most of us have some level of reduced oxygen supply during sleep and exposure to allergens (especially in kids who go to public school). I suspect that most people who pass the fuck out at 12am, sleep like a brick, and wake up groggy at 6am will naturally want more sleep the next night. The real issue comes when people are hardly sleeping at all no matter how much or how little effort they devote to their new self improvement plan.
Reading this book over my summer break really drilled the importance of sleep home for me. I was chronically sleep deprived, working on personal projects late into the night after work. After reading this book I realized I was doing myself more harm than good. I was on a five-week holiday at the time, which was the perfect opportunity to start following a more strict sleep schedule. I've slipped a little bit since going back to work, but still manage to get between 7-8 hours per night now and feel better for it.
Remember that the author is financially incentivised to make claims about large effect sizes of sleep deprivation, and to infer causality where it may or may not exist.
While it is good to be skeptical, the book really goes in depth and makes a compelling case. I also believe sleep is one of those areas that it is better to err on the side of getting the recommended amount. “If sleep does not serve an absolutely vital function, then it is the biggest mistake the evolutionary process has ever made.” - Dr. Allan Rechtschaffen.
They are all observational studies, usually with small cohorts. Same problem with nutrtitional science and psychology. History tells us again and again these results are biased, unduly influenced by the investigators and often overturned (eg Thinking Fast and Slow).
Opinions do not gain credence just because you hold them and they do not gain credence or viability just because they're contrarian. No one is shaming it by the fact that it's a minority opinion, it's just a baseless silly opinion to have.
No it doesn't, and it's still wouldn't be shaming for the reason you outlined. Your entire statement is pointless if you have to crawl all the way back to a single verb to make it relevant.
I know I'm a little late to the discussion, but I think your comment might be more well-received if you were to provide evidence to support your claim about the author's financial incentivization. After reading your comment, I looked briefly at the linked article and found the author's wikipedia page. It seems as though his primary product doesn't involve sleep. Are you saying he's financially incentivized via ad revenue from his blog posts on sleep?
In any case, I guess what I'm saying is you seem to have researched the topic and your spending an extra minute or two giving a few more details will probably save a bunch of other folks ten times that, in aggregate.
I suggest you read "why we sleep" by Matthew Walker. According to him (phd in neuroscience from stanford) you are just short changing yourself -- you're opening yourself up to all sorts of heath conditions later on. Not telling you how to live your life, just saying this book fundamentally changed the way I think about sleep and it is worth your time (IMHO)
This book is truly terrifying. I've been a "work through it" kind of person all my life, and have sacrificed sleep from a very young age for both personal and professional priorities. I've been labeled by close friends and loved ones as "forgetful" or "absent-minded." Now I'm faced with the reality that maybe I'm actually causing myself real damage, and these aren't facets of my personality, but symptoms of something worse. Thankfully, I'm only 32 and have time to correct course.
One thing I've really changed my thinking on in the past few years is my attitude towards work situations demanding late nights. I wouldn't smoke a cigarette for work, so why was I making excuses for late nights?
I've got an Ouraring, and track my sleep constantly -- but still have trouble getting a consistent 8.5 hours. But I'm getting better.
Probably shouldn't eat heavily at all; unfortunately for many of us "a few hours before bed" simply isn't possible, but of course some good habits are better than none.
I understand why any alcohol before sleep is bad, so I am drinking less nightcaps. I have a better idea of how to handle inter-continental travel, trying to use less screens before sleep, etc. It is a work in progress for me also.
Getting an Apple Watch really hit home how bad alcohol is for sleep. Anything more than a drink four hours before sleep absolutely destroys my deep sleep. I go from ~3.5 hours of deep sleep to 1 or less. My resting heart rate is also 10 or 15 bpm higher while I sleep than when I don’t drink
Not sure how accurate it is but the fact that it's so reproducibly different does make me trust it a little bit. Also jives with how tired I am the days after I drink. The resting heart rate seems to be quite accurate, I've compared it to manually checking my pulse. During exercise it tends to be slightly less accurate because of the sweat and movement.
IMO it's not the 8 hours that's required, it's deep sleep, that's what really rests you. I got 7.5hrs the other night, with 1hr of Deep Sleep and I actually felt like I was on the verge of death, whereas other nights on 6hrs with 3hrs deep, and I feel great. I think sleep is a quality over quantity type deal. Obviously this all personal observation, I just pay attention and write shit down, I don't have a PhD lol.
I think it also varies for a person. My rule of thumb is, I don't want to make a habit of having my alarm clock be what wakes me up. For me, that means that sometimes I'm up and moving less than 7 hours after my head hits the pillow, and sometimes I'm still sawing logs 9 hours later.
Stress seems to be a factor. Which, ironically enough, means that the more I sleep, the less I need to sleep.
In the middle of this book right now, it's eye opening. I've never really prioritized sleep until now, and the difference in how I feel is very noticeable. I may have less waking time, but I'd say the difference in the integral of hours-enjoyment is a big net win.
Yeah, if anything, that book just ingrained in my brain the importantce of not screwing up sleep. So much so that I know have slight fear if I don`t sleep well or need to shorten the sleep for 1-2 days for some reason.
That fear actually really messes with me sometimes. The anxiety of knowing I won’t get enough sleep actually keeps me awake sometimes, then I get more anxious and less likely to sleep, etc...
Heh. You'd be surprised, so long as you're willing to apply your skills outside of employment and with the knowledge that you might not get paid for it. There are SO MANY fields of applied programming that are currently completely starved for resources.
Think of it in terms of open source projects, where the projects that you might be interested have only a few people working on them - but in the context of issues that affect folk completely outside of tech who don't have disposable income like those you'd see on HN or similar.
I seriously recommend that you check out a local "open data civics" group, or something similar in your area. You'll find that they're generally filled with junior programmers - but what they need are senior level programmers who can take charge of problems that junior programmers otherwise can't take charge of. Be that person.
FWIW, personally everything that I learn is entirely aimed towards helping the general public (at a distance), at the expense of my own salary. The work has been very rewarding. That said, it would be great if others would take the plunge that I have.
This is very interesting train of thought and I've been trying for the past two years to find these type of opportunities within my wider network of acquaintances. Still, not much luck. Would you have some ideas / insights / further concrete examples on what could one do? I am very motivated to help and give back to those around because there is not much else I can do except for this.
Feel free to email me at the address in my desc. Thanks-a-lot!
I was moved to action by this comment as well. I found a local chapter of Code for America that seems pretty active. Maybe your city as something similar?
You can't be serious. Why would I want to come home and continue applying the same skillset I apply at work all day?
Is there something about software development that makes people feel the need to practice it every waking minute of their lives?
I mean, sometimes I do it when there's an itch I really need scratched, but most of the time I'd rather do something else. Basically anything else. Is it so wrong to want to socialize a bit or put on one of the pile of TV shows and anime I'd like to check out?
Doing that sort of volunteer work is great, but I just can't, I need to turn it off at some point.
Woah there, calm down. I never said that you shouldn't or can't socialize or put on a pile of TV shows, etc. That'd be ridiculous and unhealthy. Hell, before writing this post, I was playing XCOM 2 :). I'm merely suggesting that techies like us have a much better financial situation than a vast majority of the public, so we have financial flexibility to spare.
Some things you could do:
-Go to a local weekly meetup. Four hours a week.
-Move your career towards non-profits. It's now your profession.
-Teach programming to small classes. Eight hours a week.
-Find a local advocacy group and make small contributions. Couple hours a week.
If you can't do that sort of volunteer work, then that's on you. No need to be so sour and uncharitable to those of us who try.
Sleep is very important for your physical and mental health, and it affects people around you, too.
Even those two extra hours you can add are really important. You probably could say "yeah, I'll just drink coffee in the morning," well, NOTHING is a replacement for sleep and coffee has some repercussions in your sleep too (depending on quantity and when you drink it).
So if you are sleep deprived and adding coffee to the mix, you're doing it wrong. Inform yourself, read books about it, ask doctors, don't make decisions based on what people say on the internet (myself included) and you will notice a big difference almost right away.
I stopped drinking coffee (because I have terrible reflux) and started sleeping more. I wake up in a better mood; I noticed that I'm more productive at work because I'm less stressed, plus my family noticed the change too.
Not to mention that a good night's sleep is one of the best feelings I know. I try my best to get at least 8 hours of sleep every night, and waking up in the morning is almost a joy.
Getting more sleep enhances every aspect of my day to day life. I snack less, drink less coke, eat better, spend much less time lazing around rewatching crap on netflix because I'm too exhausted to do anything else. I've been to the gym more simply because I can be bothered.
I think generally the idea is that if you can't get exercise and 8 hours of sleep you need to reprioritize. If you only have these 2 options, there are bigger problems you need to tackle to open up time.
IMO, sleep trumps everything. One month ago I sacrificed exercise in order to sleep more. Lack of good sleep had destroyed me. I felt drained 24/7, whenever I sat down I had trouble getting up.
I would think the sleep for sure. I don't think many studies recommend 1+ hours of exercise a day. If you walk as much as possible, squeeze in 15 minutes of (body) weight training a day and maybe two 30 minutes of jogging a week you should be pretty good.
>One advice we can't act upon is "work less". We can't win.
I think most of the people on hn (or at least most well-paid tech workers... do those still make the majority here?) can work less fairly easily, if that working less comes with the massive performance boost that goes with sleeping properly. I'm sure it's way different for retail and other hourly-type workers.
If I sleep more and if I sleep better? I am just way more effective. When I'm being effective and getting things done, people are pretty slack about me showing up late and/or leaving early, even at the FANG companies.
I mean, I don't know anyone who put "I worked X hours a day" in their promo packet; nobody cares. no, the idea behind the promo packet is that you show what you accomplished, and how those accomplishments effected the company.
My experience is that the boss gets on me about working more only when I'm not producing enough; usually the solution isn't to work more, but instead to figure out why I'm not performing up to expectations and fix that.
Set a timer on your computer that goes off while programming. When it goes off get up and do 10 pushup no matter where you are. Right in the middle of work. Then go back to coding. Next time 10 squats. Then 10 lunges. Or 10 chair dips. At first you'll get funny looks but soon people may join you.
If you're so time crunched I'd say choose 30 minutes less sleep 3x per week and do a bodyweight workout where you are, as you are (so it doesnt cost you travel time).
Because one is not better than the other. They perform complementary functions. Hence, I would suggest either finding time for both (I don't) or alternating.
That is, one day you sleep more and don't exercise and the next day you sleep less and exercise.
A better way is stop doing stupid things. Many of us need to sleep in because we play around on our phones/games for hours before bed. I get up between 5-6 am every morning and go workout. Then I have super productive time for a few hours without interruptions. Come 9-10 pm I go to bed and am sleep in minutes from a full day.
I realized that when I used to stay up later I wasn’t very productive, and just wasted a lot of time.
Actually no. I end up with more free time to do the things I want to do.
Many of us (maybe not you specifically) just do things without really thinking about them. Watching TV, playing video games, etc... we do out of boredom or habit. Not because we really want to do them. I think PG has written about cutting out the bullshit that doesn't matter [1]. Those are the things I talk about being stupid. Does looking at FB for an hour before bed matter? How about some phone game? Or binging a whole Netflix series in one night?
I get so much more done through the early parts of the day, I end up with more time to spend with my wife doing things we want to do.
Everyone is different, but I found it is down to allocating the time you are most productive effectively.
If you want to get work done and you work best in the morning with no distractions, get up early and go to sleep early.
If you work best at night, stay up late and maximise your time in those productive hours.
If you are comfortable with your day job and want to maximise life enjoyment it's pretty much the same thing, except you're picking the time best suited for what makes you happy. No surprise that active people like to get up and excercise early, lots of daylight and that fresh morning air is invigorating. It's also no surprise that people who like to game or veg out tend to do it at night when they are slowing down from the day.
It is a concious choice though, and I feel many just accidentally fall into a pattern and forget they usually have the agency to choose.
> Everyone is different, but I found it is down to allocating the time you are most productive effectively.
I agree, and I used to be one of those who stayed up later. I found though with myself and some others I personally know that making the move to an early wake up was still better.
It's silly, but when you get a mental discipline win as the first thing you do in the morning (getting up) it builds on itself. The next step is, "I'm up, so of course I'm going to the gym". From there, "I got up early to hit the gym, of course I'm skipping that donut". And so on. Like I said, it's silly in some way, but it also builds this discipline. For me personally, it completely got rid of my procrastination habit.
Avoiding rush hour and hiring help when practical has been absolutely key for me. I was in a bad loop of insufficient sleep --> poor functioning ---> need to work more to compensate ----> insufficient sleep for years before I started taking this stuff more seriously. Sometimes still fale to get enough, but these two relatively minor changes have been really beneficial.
#4 will kill your mental health over time - would not recommend. Take 15 minutes to close your laptop and sit somewhere else. The other suggestions are really good.
I'd say that really depends on what your work environment is like. I've worked places where I'd much rather eat at my desk, quietly reading a book or newspaper, than go into a loud, crowded breakroom/cafeteria where I was either ignored or expected to talk to people I couldn't be myself around.
We don’t disagree, my point is to treat lunch as a complete break (even if it’s just to read at your desk) rather than powering through every day to try and leave a few minutes earlier.
That reads a lot like the classic sleep deprived cycle. Hard to get up, tired for most of the day, exhausted after work, feels awake towards the evening, can't sleep, rinse and repeat.
If that is the case I think the key is realizing that you are cheating yourself. When you aren't sleep deprived you should be able to do most of your required work mid-morning and take it easy in the afternoon. Then when you get home you won't be exhausted and can do whatever you want and still go to bed at ease.
As I get older I find myself worrying more about having enough time than I worry about having enough money, being productive enough, or even having pristine health. Time feels more and more important to optimize, having spent most of my youth wasting time and optimizing for those other things.
Once we get UBI or a <40 hour work week becomes the norm, this kind of stuff will be applicable to many more people. Right now a lot of the population can't afford to be healthy.
I'm highly doubtful that it'll diminish my enjoyment of life by more than the 2.5 hours a day worth of enjoyment I wouldn't otherwise have. That's like adding a full month of time to every year.
I could get hit by a bus and die tomorrow and I'd be damn glad I took that extra time for myself each and every day.
Ironically, when I am sleep deprived I am more accident prone and more likely to get hit by a bus.
But what's almost certain, if I sleep less than 7 hours for more than 1 week, I will catch a cold. My immune system doesn't work as well without sufficient sleep.
Well you have to make your decisions based on something right? I'm not sure what you're advocating here, unless it's that we shouldn't think about life decisions too hard. The fact that math is involved doesn't automatically mean the reasoning is shallow.
You see it in popular commentary sometimes- the ideas of engineers, often specifically software engineers, claiming unique knowledge by deriving from first principles, in fields they are but laymen in.
Why? Why not doctors? Physicists? Geologists? Scientists of other disciplines? Mathematicians? Statisticians? Why give engineers- and I presume, software engineers, specifically- that extra credit?
Clearly because software engineers are the only people gifted with the true ability to reason. All other lowly professions just memorize facts in books. /s
You are 100% right. The days I sleep less is when am cranky, unable to focus. Its worse in the morning gets better as the day progresses. I work from home, so on those days I'll take a nap and it's a huge upliftment in the mood.
And I've had those work weeks, where you don't get enough sleep and I've almost had accidents, screwed up shit at work.
I agree with you. Some people want to live well into their 80s and 90s. I look at most people in their 80s and 90s and cringe. Loads of pills. Walkers. Cognitive struggles. etc.
I'm fine living until 65 if it was a full, happy, productive life. I don't need to live forever, nor do I want to.
But low sleep is going to impact your perception during waking life. You’re not going to get the maximum cognitive productivity or the maximum emotional enjoyment out of life.
I don't quite get it - why do you think I need the maximum possible cognitive productivity out of my life? If I'm delivering enough to get the job done, that's enough for me, I don't need to invest every minute of my day in maximizing my cognitive productivity over my enjoyment of life. If I'm giving up spending time with my family and friends, working on personal projects or even just catching up on a TV show I enjoy, I'd say that's a better use of my time than sleeping.
I see no reason to think it has significant impact on emotional enjoyment though as you're suggesting - these studies impact learning primarily which wouldn't seem to be deeply involved there. In fact, studies exist showing positive impacts for depression patients.
> I see no reason to think it has significant impact on emotional enjoyment though as you're suggesting - these studies impact learning primarily which wouldn't seem to be deeply involved there.
Please, sleep is essential for emotional stability. I know you rely a lot on self-study, many of us on HN do, but schedule half an hour to talk with your doctor or with a psychologist, psychiatrist or sleep-specialist, and let them convince you rather than letting me do it.
Sleep is absurdly important in all aspects of life, memory integration, resting, repairing the body, emotional regulation.
Not to mention, you are way, way less prone to diseases like cancer, alzheimers, fatigue, depression...
And there are other aspects of sleeping that are interesting and enjoyable too, time slept is not time lost, you dream while sleeping, you know? If you really want to optimize time lived, then you should go for 8 hours of sleep and learn about lucid dreaming, for instance.
> In fact, studies exist showing positive impacts for depression patients.
Not sleeping does indeed have a positive impact patients with depression (and anxiety). I can tell you this because I am one of those people. Out of personal experience, yes absolutely, poor sleep for one day makes you feel better. Why? Because you're so incredibly fucking tired that you literally can't even bother to be anxious.
It is horrifying.
Please for gods sake have some respect for yourself and for your body.
I feel less grumpy and less anxious, each time I sleep my full 8, but I'd be hesitant to equate that sensation with "happier". If I do that for an extended period of time, I feel bored, existential, "socially unproductive", and begin to get a creeping sense of being a rat in a ratrace.
If I sacrifice some of those 8 hours, I feel grumpy, moody, occasionally a bit depressed, but overall get to do more small day-to-day things of value that give me a genuine sense of fulfillment on top of that.
>If I do that for an extended period of time, I feel bored, existential, "socially unproductive", and begin to get a creeping sense of being a rat in a ratrace.
Have you considered that your life is boring and that you're actually participating in a rat race and sleep is allowing you to identify that?
How old are you? You sound young (under 35). Once you reach 35 and probably earlier, you will change your mind.
When you're young your body can take almost everything. I know that when I was 20-22 I would sleep maximum 6 hours per day because I felt the way you describe.
Now if I don't take at least 7.5 hours per night (with as few interruptions as possible), my life goes to hell, I feel drained, tired and lost, with depression looming.
Well, I can't get any enjoyment when I'm sleepy. Try to watch a movie, I fall asleep; try to read a book, I fall asleep. So if you lack sleep you can't get enjoyment anyway.
Right? When reading such comments I sometimes replace “sleep” with “eating” or “drinking”. It’s insane. If my basic physiological needs aren’t met I’m miserable and unable to enjoy the pleasures of life.
Aren't you curious about the world, about history, about psychology? You won't be able to learn deep rich history if you don't remember what you read in the first nine books once you get to the real payoff in the tenth book.
Honestly, I'm not. I like to build things, software, hobby electronics, a bit of cooking and baking, but all of that stuff is best learned through experience, not rote memoization.
Other than that though I find it far more enjoyable to do something other than blindly consume knowledge for no purpose, I'd much rather engage in social activities or play games - even making numbers go up is more satisfying to me than memorizing factoids of limited practical use to me.
Personally as a software engineer I feel quality sleep makes a big difference on the quality of learning I get through experience. I'm more sensitive to the details that matter and develop deeper insights when encountering a new problem.
I think that for most people who don't get enough sleep it's not because they are busy squeezing every bit of joy out of life. It's because they're using their phone in bed, watching TV, etc.
This honestly is spot on the way I think about it - I can sleep early, but who benefits from my day to day learning as an adult? My employer maybe? Me in some minor long term ways?
Or I can stay up and do things I enjoy, wake myself up with an alarm every day and consume enough caffeine to bridge the gap. This way, I get more enjoyment out of my life in a very direct and measurable way.
If 5-6 hours of sleep a night is enough to get paid, I'm not going to make a sacrifice that will cost me personally.