Right now I'm considering moving to developing on a Galaga Pro and using Windows/WSL. I've got most things setup on my desktop how I like using HyperTerm (I had too much trouble with Cmder), VS Code, and ZSH. I can't seem to figure out how to install PHP 7.2 correctly to work on Laravel, nor get my GPG and SSH keys for Github working.
The bright side is if I move to Windows I wouldn't have to give up very many programs, or they have some rough but useable equivalents (Spectacle, Sequel Pro, Gifox, Bear).
I was tempted to go with Elementary on the Razer Blade Stealth, but I still want 32gb of RAM, and Propellerheads Reason doesn't work on Linux.
1) MagSafe. I know they really want to go all in on USB-C, but the original MagSafe connector was awesome. Even the weaker 2.0 version was nice. There were two instances where that connector saved my laptop.
2) The laser-drilled power indicator. That was so cool. It looked like the light magically appeared through the aluminum. Now there's no indication whatsoever if your laptop is on or asleep or off.
3) The 2007-2011 keyboards. The ones with the real travel. Even the 2012 version with slightly reduced travel was okay. But my 2007 MacBook had the best laptop keyboard I'd ever used.
4) HDMI and SD Card slot. These are the kinds of things that you happen to need when you least expect it. When you're least likely to have that dongle with you. They're also thin ports that will fit nicely without bulking up the chassis.
5) Of course, function keys and an ESC key.
I'm going to keep my 2012 MBP going as long as I can. But when it dies or is no longer supported, I'm pretty sure ThinkPad is where I'm headed.
iPhones are constantly bashed by a group of users because of not having USB-C connectors. Having four USB-C ports with identical capabilities on a MacBook pro is a more pragmatic and flexible solution to have, when compared to MagSafe.
On the power level and power button issue, Apple changes its features to shape customer behavior and expectation from its devices. Apple removed battery meter from Macs since it's standby is too long (30 days) and robust (auto-hibernation), so you're unlikely to run out of juice.
They also believe in the stability of MacOS such that it's not important whether the machine is off or in standby. Because it boots in ~10 seconds and wakes up in ~2. They want to remove these distinctions from their computers and try to lower your cognitive load. Actually this is one of the finest features of the Macs IMHO. They don't make you think to use it.
Open the lid, and if the screen doesn't come on, press the power button, done.
I don't understand why it can't have both. Have a magsafe port, ship with a magsafe charger. But if you happen to connect a USB-C charger to one of the USB-C ports, charge through that too. No issue. Playstation portable was like this - you could charge it through proprietary playstation charger, or if you connected a mini-usb cable it would charge through it. No issue.
Given how things are trending, I predict the MBP of the future will have no ports, no keyboard, and the screen will be just a static image of the apple logo, although at 4 times retina resolution.
What I don’t appreciate is the over-emphasis on useless symmetry or minimalism. Good design is more than looks and polish. Functionality is the reason I buy the thing. Design is why I choose the brand. If the functionality isn’t there, I don’t care how pretty it is.
However, I'm not implying that everyone should be comfortable with the operation principles of new MacBooks or their devices in general. I love the challenge and the different perspectives they bring, but it's sometimes limiting and slowing down until finding the best way to utilize them.
This is why we have different brands and designs, because one design indeed doesn't fit all.
I also like Rams and aware some of his work. Also I see traces of his work through Mac/iOS calculators (which nods to Braun's ones), and apple's software (low level) design philosophy.
That adjustment, at least in my case, doesn't come from the tool itself. I'm also a heavy Linux desktop user, so making two systems work nice (for my standards) took some time when I introduced Macs into my workflow ~10 years ago. Currently I have no friction. I think if I was solely a Mac user, that initial friction should be non-existent.
OTOH, the newest Mac I have is a Mid-2014 MBP. I don't know how the new ones compare.
Honestly, I'm way too flexible and adaptable when it comes to new designs and paradigms. I think I don't have the complaint circuitry in my brain. I like to just accept and adapt. I see it as a way to counteract the tendency of being fixed on things I like, but are outdated. I also love to bring good ideas and features from new things to the old, to refine my old habits and increase productivity.
But, as I always say, that's just me.
Cough, cough......USB-C. Looking at the plug there is no way to tell whether the cable will support fast charging, video, or even 3.0 or just 2.0 USB. All of those cables share the same socket but provide different functions.
Please explain the protruding camera from the back of the phones.
I think the adapter was from the brand Baseus.
I’ve been caught out several times now on the new units where I closed the lid and came back hours later only to find the laptop still on and very warm.
Mostly seems down to VMs or backups running that don’t seem to want to suspend. So now I always suspend my VMs and stop backups. Which slows down my workflow greatly since it takes a minute each to suspend and resume the VM itself. I also find myself holding the laptop undercarriage right up against my ear listening for the whirring of the fans and if they stop. I look like a right idiot doing it, but there’s no other way to tell.
my last magsafe macbook air lasted 5 years as a daily driver. i doubt this piece of shit will last another year. i've already had to send it in once for a logic board replacement once.
the keyboard on this one is starting to go as of this week (one key not registering), so i think i'm gonna have to send it in again.
not to mention the pain in the ass of carrying dongles everywhere
I honestly consider buying a 2015 mbp and selling my newer one at least once a month. That was the last good laptop apple made.
I found that most (if not all) people who rave about a USB-C-only future do not actually use more than 1 or 2 peripherals. Or they want it for power connection only.
Anybody who a) has a significant number of USB-A peripherals (in my case, I'd say the number is above 30 distinct devices), b) understands that the USB-C label doesn't mean that it will work when you plug it in, has a more sensible approach: USB-C is fine, but don't remove our USB-A (or lightning) ports just yet.
A more pragmatic solution to what? Everything I plug into these ports is via some ugly after-market adapter. There is not a single natively USB-C peripheral or cable that I have ever needed to attach (other than the power cable, of course). Even the iPhone itself is incompatible.
Luckily it's only a work machine and I get to use my older personal MBP at home...
Four ports costs extra. The base model, which is ostensibly also a "pro" computer, only has two ports. That's one for power and one for everything else. If all of the pro machines came with four ports, then complaints about the USB-C transition wouldn't be so great.
And to piggyback off of this, I imagine the future will be wireless charging in this realm, so in theory you wouldn't need to worry about charger cables plugged into your laptop at all.
I love USB-C, but not for power. Already, two of my ports are loose. I've never had that on any previous Apple power connector. MagSafe was a brilliant solution to real problems, and just dropping it without a superior alternative is not at all what I expect from Apple.
I also like the universality of USB-C, but it's not like Apple didn't opt to keep one legacy port for usability reasons - that little headphone port. SD and HDMI would have been enough.
And yes, the keyboard is terrible. For a machine I spend all day on, designed for pros, its a disappointment. Like most people here, it always takes me a little time to adapt to a new keyboard; unlike in the past, after more than a year I still loathe this one.
Perhaps the only thing that doesn't bring out my inner rage is the Touchbar. I'm largely ambivalent about it - the lack of esc/f-keys was annoying for a few days but I adapted. Obviously, others disagree, but on this list its the one choice I could have found a way to rationalize.
Yesterday the last straw landed and I started setting up my 2012 MacBook again, at least for my writing, where I need a reliable built-in keyboard. I know Apple has a repair program for the 2017 MacBook keyboard, but it's my work machine, it's really hard to part with it for 1-3 days of repairs.
Edit to add: Moments after posting I run across this link: https://theoutline.com/post/6409/the-new-and-improved-macboo...
ThinkPads have garbage quality control. My last three: two T450s that had bad backlight bleed. Then a X1 Carbon 6th Gen that doesn't have backlight bleed, but LTE that just stops working randomly. (At least once a day, usually when waking up from sleep--so bad I've just disabled it.) Also, the X1C6 has the best trackpad on the ThinkPad line, or so I'm told, but it still sucks compared to a MacBook Pro. My next machine is going to be a Surface Laptop, I think.
Maybe the Surface is my next machine. Who knows what will be out there when I finally have to let this laptop go.
But this battery level indicator should be #6 on my list. I forgot about that. It was cool, too.
It was a very special manufacturing procedure, something that is hard to copy without the special hardware.
And Apple bought all that supply. You couldn't get the production line to do it...
(IIRC, bit my memory may fail me on that. Please Google it, I would be interested in rereading it!)
I mean just show an error on the screen. It's not the end of the world.
The funny thing is, some people have a hard time losing features no matter what. There are alternatives to MagSafe, such as the Griffin BreakAway, but they don't buy these.
SD Card slot is an essential thing, I can't believe they've removed it.
Lack of HDMI is not a problem IMHO, I've bought a great Thunderbolt-HDMI converter for about $10 on AliExpress, out it on my HDMI cable and forgotten about the problem.
Lack of some keys has always been a pain, removing even function keys and an ESC key looks like they really hate people that use terminal.
Removing classic USB ports was too ahead-of-time, they should have waited at least some years before doing this (BTW I actually am not sure USB-C is going to become the standard, there are a lot of problems with it).
Is this sarcasm? I don't remember the last time I used an SD Card on a laptop.
Then getting rid of SD card is more about moving towards the future, and not the past. The problem is not only does such standard not exist, Apple isn't working on any, the industry couldn't care less.
This is very different to all previous Apple's removal, where there is a clear better alternative, that might not be as good now but it is in their Spring as Steve Jobs would likes to put it.
Sure. I was very tired and couldn't remember the correct abbreviation, excuse me (believe it or not it's the first time in my life I actually typed it :-)).
> Then getting rid of SD card is more about moving towards the future, and not the past. The problem is not only does such standard not exist, Apple isn't working on any, the industry couldn't care less.
Makes sense but in fact I'm glad nobody is inventing a replacement. There are things that just work great, are simple and don't have to be replaced. Like headphone jacks. And SD cards are among of these things.
ChromeOS + Android Emulation covers a lot of ground for UI needs in the developer workflow. For everything else, you have Linux via Crostini.
I just switched to a new 2018 macbook pro. The missing esc key isn't so bad. Thought I would hate it, but like everything else, including new FB redesigns, you get used to it and move on.
I use press-and-release on the alt key to send 0x1b, as DEC intended.
You mean 2007 Macbook Pro right ? One of the best tactile responses I'd ever experienced on a keyboard. Thinkpad T520 was another I really enjoyed typing on.
Five months later, a different key failed, and the Apple Store people sent it to Memphis. This time, it came back with one of the "new and improved" keyboards. They also replaced the screen because of 'delamination' which I hadn't noticed. The total amount they spent to repair this computer is approaching the cost of the machine at this point! So far, the new keyboard hasn't failed yet but I'm not holding my breath…
After opening the lid one day there was a loud crackling noise and the speakers were both blown. To repair it, the Apple store had to replace the entire top case (top half of the chassis including keyboard, trackpad, speakers) and also replaced the battery, which would have cost ~£500.
I got it back two weeks later after dealing with a smug 'Genius' who treated me like an idiot. He also claimed that the software diagnostics were clean, so there was nothing wrong with the laptop. I had to drive 1 1/2 hours each way to the store for a second time during business hours just to argue in person with them, because the speakers were clearly broken.
The exact same problem happened twice more over the next year, taking two weeks to fix each time. The final time was outside of the 1yr AppleCare warranty, and they wanted to replace the top case, battery and logic board for ~£800.
Coupled with the useless touch bar, 16GM RAM cap, awful display scaling issues/confusion when external monitors were attached, sluggish performance for video editing and OS updates that broke the machine, it convinced me to avoid Apple products completely.
I got a full £3100 refund after 18 months under EU consumer law and build a powerful desktop PC (16 core ThreadRipper, 32GB RAM, 1080ti) with £1500 left over.
My CPU is actually the 12 core / 24 thread version, which I got for £340 on a flash deal during a meet-up event. My case is also better than listed, but was the same price as part of a weekly deal.
Note that it's pre-VAT price (£1499), because it's a business computer. The Macbook was ~£3100 pre-VAT, and this thing shreds through video exports maybe 4-6x faster than the laptop. I do miss the MacOS terminal for web development though.
It's alright to boot up a linux "VM" using docker, but then you have to pay extra for windows pro or whatever so you can unlock hypervisor privileges.
I recently bought an extra SSD to put into the windows desktop I bought and am happily running linux, don't miss windows since I put it on there (even some steam games are quite nice and convenient).
Anyway, just look into WSL before you bet the farm on it.
They advertise it as being useful for development work, and it perfectly fulfills that purpose for me
Combined with Docker there is no reason for me to even look at MacOS or running Linux natively (which I have done before for years.)
For me it's the best thing to come out of Microsoft in a long time.
Agreed, I think it's an amazing feature. Have been a full time linux user for 20 years, my new laptop is BIOS locked ( ugh ) so I _cant_ install linux ( didnt know that before buying it ) , but it's actually not an issue because of WSL, it's exactly what I always wanted in Windows.
When my Windows laptops get too old and slow for the latest Windows plus patches, I get another 3 to 5 years of life out of them by installing Linux. I still have a little Dell laptop that I first put into service in 2004 as a Windows box, converted it to Linux in 2009, and it still runs.
time for i in $(seq 1 100); do /bin/pwd; done | wc
WSL is actually a fantastic piece of software. I can't believe how easy it is to install literal Arch Linux onto my Windows machine. It's also fairly simple these days to integrate VS Code with it.
¹ I've gradually lost enough vision in both eyes that I frequently lose track of the mouse cursor, so I switched to Linux for i3wm and better keyboard controls. Otherwise I would likely still be using Windows + WSL.
Looking into how Docker works properly takes some time, so there is some overhead with that, but being able to switch environments between projects, test upgrading libs etc and instantly being able to switch back has been a game changer for me.
Things that make it great:
1) Slightly larger screen at 14" is very nice, but the overall computer is still lighter than a MBP.
2) Keyboard is fantastic
3) Build quality feels like it can hold up to more abuse than MBP or Dell XPS
4) Has USB-C ports, but also has old USB-A style ports, so no need for adapters.
I dual boot with Windows and Linux. For better or worse, I still need to use Excel sometimes and LibreOffice's version doesn't cut it. The only thing I miss about macOS over Ubuntu is the ability to install Microsoft Office (without using Wine).
 plug for Costco who sells a nicely loaded (i7 processor, 16gb RAM, 512GB hard drive) version for $1500, or $1400 on sale.
At a previous job I persuaded IT to build a Windows VM with all of their normal stuff in, so that I could boot Linux natively - it was a good way of working.
I'm sure I could get used to all of those things eventually, but ideally there are more things in a new laptop that I want than things I have to get used to.
If you are doing Web development I highly recommend that over Windows. Just last night I tried to setup a Phoenix project on a fresh install of windows and after 5 hours I was still installing C++ build tools, setting up path variables etc etc. It honestly is a world of pain.
I remember setting up the same project on Ubuntu in five minutes. Not to mention it is infinitely more responsive.
Ubuntu 18.4: Hangouts screen share doesn't work, WiFi dies after resuming from sleep, and other minor things.
It has been 15 years and it still feels clumsy ... I was not impressed.
I still predominantly use Windows 10 due to gaming and doing a lot of .Net development, but I am changing jobs soon and I might just run Linux for a while. See what happens. Honestly my experience in Windows these days is one of pain and confusion. The file system is even annoying me quite a bit. Anyway, I probably just hit the hardware configuration sweet spot that mean't my Pop!_os installation wasn't riddled with driver issues.
No matter what I end up doing, I'll miss texting from my computer through iMessage.
But if I ever get into more graphically demanding games I can hook up an eGPU and throw in a 1080Ti or something.
I have 32GB of RAM in mine and they are easy to open, service and upgrade :).
I use both and the last year has been the single best year I've had with Linux in terms of 'it just works', before that I used Ubuntu and while it was generally fine I prefer Fedora.
The cinnamon spin is superb and it makes windows 10 feel clunky by comparison on the daily usability.
It's a little monster of a machine.
This can mean some git commands (for instance) run slowly due to all the processes launched in the associated bash scripts.
It's not a production machine no one is using it that way, its perfectly fine for development.
In others, like fork, entirely new and unique code is ran.
Hyper's got a few critical bugs, and Cmd is just ConEmu). If you want iTerm2 like functionality on Windows, Terminus destroys Hyper, ConEmu, Alaciritty and everything else.
This definitely works, I've used it back in the day (needs "enable-ssh" in config).
I have them on a smartcard and it works really well (you can also connect Yubikey 4C to Android via OpenKeychain and login to servers using Termbot on the go using hardware stored keys - secure and convenient!).
An added benefit of Yubikey backed keys is touch to use so that you need to physically touch the token to use the key. A critical matter when using ForwardAgent!
Overall probably a net benefit for society honestly, if it means less PHP in production. (I kid)
The photos app was amazing. Live tiles are amazing. The music player and it's live tile was amazing. The performance was the same whether on a low end budget phone or the top of the line model.
So many good ui and ux decisions like the lack of hamburger menus and placement of all menu items along the bottom of the screen with the extra items being hidden away in a drop-down using ellipsis. System wide light and dark themes jazzed up using an accent color that all of your apps respected.
The People hub (contacts app) was the central point for all social media. Facebook and Twitter were integrated. I didn't need fb messenger. Skype and fb messenger were integrated with the messaging app.
Damn, I wish we made it.
I was totally on board with WP but then Microsoft bungled the later WP updates (my phone wasn't supported, and it was one of the last ones with a physical keyboard) and third-parties never really supported the platform.
The UI and UX were both extremely well thought out and worked smoother than any Android phone on equivalent specs. (apart from the confusing settings menus)
My dad's 100$ nokia 840 still runs like a champ. I can't think of any $100 Android phone with that sort of smoothness over 4 years.
The lack of adoption from both devs and users killed it.
I woul love to see it being revived at some point, but I doubt we will see that day.
Both of these fall square on Microsoft. Developers didn't care for the platform in part because there weren't users, but also because every version had a completely different UI framework that wasn't compatible with older oses, but if you didn't use it, your app wouldn't fit well on the new oses (and occasionally never start up). Developers of Windows mobile 6 apps had no path to wp7, other than rewriting everything.
Users got a very weird upgrade story. Sometimes, upgrades were just not available, despite promises that they would be. Windows Mobile 10 was a mess, Edge is worse than mobile IE, but users don't have a choice to go back. Microsoft pushed back on a mobile Firefox in the app store early, and if they changed their mind it was too late.
Finally, Microsoft decided to retarget towards the high end with Windows Mobile 10 devices -- somehow they forgot that most of the devices they were selling were low end devices, where they could have a lot better responsiveness than a similar cost Android, because of platform differences (single app at a time is probably a big part, but maybe there's some other components).
Windows Mobile 10 also lost all the boxy UI which I loved :(
I still think about going back to the 925. Battery life was great, camera was decent, and it was the perfect size for hand and pocket. Only the browser lets it down and that's mostly because modern js sites don't support ie mobile and a lot of stuff breaks
On a side note I do wish there were strong 3rd or 4th choices for a phone OS. A shame Blackberry is now just an Android flavor.
I spent alot less time on my phone cos information was at a glance and I didn't need to open/close many apps all the time.
Also dedicated camera buttons on mobile phones with two step capture. On the first slight press the focus was adjusted and then on a harder press the image was clicked.
Widgets are a good idea but they look horribly inconsistent.
Similar to android's "widgets".
- long battery life (2-7 days depending on model)
- e-ink colour screens, that were always on
- an extensive app/watchface ecosystem
- actual attractive watches
I had a series of them and was all-in on the new models announced via kickstarter, when they suddenly disappeared and were bought by Fitbit. All forthcoming products were killed off.
They've been pretty reasonable with sunsetting the servers and helping the community move towards an open model, but it's only a matter of time before my Pebble Time Round bites the dust and I can't fix it (my partner's has already gone)
Battery lasts a month, screen is not e-ink but it's always on (I believe LCD), watchfaces are customizable but there's not a lot of good ones since the resolution of the screen and the colors aren't great. Functionality is pretty limited, but good enough for time, gps and notifications.
I have one and I'm satisfied with it, and I'm looking forward to what they do with v2.
Battery life is ~40 days for me, which is awesome.
I believe there are some online reviews with better info about the physical activity recording.
Also, the edge is slightly raised above the face on it, so while there are a couple of nicks on the bezel, there are no scratches on the glass. The sapphire glass may also be part of that.
App ecosystem is minimal, but I honestly don't need any apps anyway.
The first weekend I had it, I tested it by wearing it on a Tough Mudder...it survived without a scratch. 2 years later and the Garmin battery life is still over a week. If you miss Pebble and want something still being updated, look at the Garmin watches (but I wouldn't go any lower than the current vivoactive3 line)
I also got mine replaced without any hassle after it failed.
It's the nicest watch I've ever had (to be fair I'm not a big watch guy) and my favourite thing about it is that it doesn't look like I'm wearing a computer on my wrist.
Oh and I only charge it every 5-6 days.. :-)
Searching for technical (unix, programming, etc.) content is so much easier when you can use nested parens and proper boolean language.
This is in contrast to google where searches return things that don't even contain your keywords.
This is in contrast to google where the modifiers like allinsite: and '+' and "quotes" are not respected or change their behavior over time.
Man I miss altavista...
This has become so frustrating as of late, especially when you search for something like "c++ map" and it decides to completely ignore the "c++" part of your search, leaving you with pages of actual maps. Slightly exaggerated example since I can't remember any concrete ones off the top of my head, but the actual situation happens way too often.
I think this is a function of trying to make searches more effective for unsophisticated users at the expense of users who know how to be more precise.
Similar to Apple and GNOME, it ends up penalizing the expert users to cater to non-expert users.
This is why you need to have the regular interface for people who shouldn't be expected to be experts, but have a separate interface for people who know what they are doing, because supporting both types of users is often mutually exclusive.
It doesn't happen to me so it doesn't exist does not apply in this case
Google search doesn't really work for power users anymore and I don't see that changing for the better anytime soon.
With Altavista, the limiting factor was the searcher. And my nostalgia that over-estimates the size of their search database.
I'm incredulous. Doing this well for unstructured text would be worth a lot in many industries today, let alone the entire web. If they did this well, they'd still be alive and well in another form.
A week or so ago I was frantically searching for "hidden bird illusion", and could no longer find the animated gif on wikipedia, and also nothing related to it on DDG nor Google, until about an hour later...
I just tried "hidden bird illusion" and it gave the michaelbach.de page within first page...
Thanks for the recommendation if you guys were referring to dogpile.com it's always good to have a backup search engine...
dogpile was/is a metasearch engine.
Back before google days there was so much unindexed stuff out there each search engine could bring back different results.
Going to this one site and searching would bring back results from all the popular search engines at one time.. querying sites like (altavista, lycos etc.)
Maybe what we miss is not exactly Altavista but a mid-2000s Google, also with the low occurrence of spam and sponsored content that we had back then. How about duckduckgo, does it fit the bill?
> does anyone know why Google does this with search their results? what does the word “must” mean here, practically?
IIRC, it didn't even have its own domain name for a long time, it was altavista.digital.com. There's another company I miss, having used Vaxen back in college.
Fortunately, there's SymbolHound , which is designed for just that! Check it out
If you searched for something like "rust", you would clearly see multiple clusters which would include a big chunk of stuff around "ferrous oxide" and a smaller cluster around the "programming language".
You could click on the specific cluster you wanted, and the results would rank/limit to just that.
I would kill for that back ...
Similarly, rockbox was really great mp3 player firmware, when I used to use one of those. It had a funny feature I've never seen elsewhere: multi-lingual article-ignoring sort. I had German band "Die Prinzen" on that mp3 player, and that sorted under P, just like all it sorted the Beatles under B.
Well, maybe they should have licensed the content they offered. They streamed unlicensed music - what did they expect?
I have never had a period of more high quality music discovery and I sorely miss those playlists, many of which featured obscure/rare/live tracks that simply aren't available in today's music services.
Paying for music isn't an issue, but it sucks when copyright is used to control music.
I have google music, and it is good, the music they have is generally of higher quality, but the selection does not compare.
The only extra I wish for would be the last.fm's slider between "mainstream" and "obscure".
If you don't mind me asking, I'd be curious about your setup, I'm considering installing it on an old Sandisk e200 I have around.
I remember the default firmware being extremely slow to use. It spent cpu time it couldn't afford to render animations between "apps" that added nothing. I think it may have been extensor picky about which codecs it supported, though I wouldn't have had much that wasn't mp3s.
I really loved rockbox. I liked how configurable it was, and how minimal it was. I'd previously used sdd based mp3 players. A dell dj (I was crushed when they canceled that line, and more so when the Seagate hard drive failed) and the first gen video ipod.
Rockbox worked very well for music, which is all I used it for. I always used windows explorer to transfer files to /from, and that worked well.
I found installing rockbox very easy. More so than installing ddwrt or homebrew on a wii. I don't think I ever updated rockbox. I probably used it for a year and a half, max.
I only stopped using it when I got a smart phone. I would certainly still be using it today.
I got one for my dad last year, and was surprised that Sandisk discontinued the Rockbox compatible models, and used players were going for $~50, presumably because of their Rockbox compatibility.