Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

I highly recommend playing with CLOS (or one of the Scheme flavored knockoffs like GOOPS in Guile or Swindle in Racket) for anyone who hasn't but works in OO languages (probably most working programmers).

You probably spend all day dealing with OO ideas like method dispatch and inheritance, but to see them laid out explicitly in CLOS, as distinct from the underlying Lisp language, really helps you to internalize them and how arbitrary and malleable they are, as well as how astoundingly general they are when interpreted as broadly as CLOS does (the object systems in workaday languages cut off a lot of the avenues open to systems defined in terms of CLOS).

You can get a similar "aha" moment by looking at how Perl does OO if you already know Perl, or reading the implementations of one of its dozens of different user-implemented object systems. Perl has some language-level support for OO but it is very minimal so these object systems have to do most of the work that a Common Lisp object system would.

I think the main benefit is in seeing OO implemented in a language with no built-in support for it, rather than a language built around the concept of classes and inheritance or some version of it.




Another revelation with CLOS is methods are not namespaced to classes. Before I used CLOS it was not obvious that methods were serving two distinct purposes (specialization and namespaces) within other OO languages.

Interestingly enough, most OO systems for lisp older that CLOS were much more smalltalk like in this sense, so there were several people that found the non-namespaced approach to methods to be superior.

I'm honestly not yet convinced they are superior, but they are clearly more generic, in that it is trivial to implement single-dispatch message-passing style methods in CLOS, but much harder to do the reverse (several patterns in the GoF book exist just to emulate multiple dispatch).


But it's more difficult to redirect all/most messages to a class/instance to another class/instance. Especially if there is no message passing going on ...


Seconded. Also, learning about the MOP (Meta-Object Protocol) is highly recommended to broaden your horizons.

That said, I used to be fascinated with CLOS, and yet these days I write in Clojure and have no more than a few multimethods in my entire code base. OO has many drawbacks and I find I can write better (simpler, more understandable and debuggable) code without it.


>OO has many drawbacks

What are some, according to you? I mean, I have read a bit about why immutability and functional programming is becoming popular, e.g. it makes concurrent programming and use of multiple cores easier (only a general idea, may be wrong). But what are your specific reasons for saying OO has many drawbacks?


My reasons are very pragmatic: I found that OO doesn't bring me any benefits, while imposing a significant cost.

This realization came as I switched to Clojure: it found that I'd rather use the generic data structures with the excellent functions that come with the standard library. This gave me much better reusability than inheritance. Enforcing contracts can be done in a multitude of ways, and I no longer liked the idea that the only way to enforce data integrity is by keeping the data private and accessible only using "accessors".

Debugging OO code can be a major nightmare. Reading and understanding it is also difficult. How do you know which method implementation will get called at a certain point in your program? You really have no idea until you run it and dynamic dispatch happens. This is also a problem with Clojure multimethods, although it is somewhat mitigated by Clojure's explicit dispatch fn.

As for data modeling, I found that inheritance isn't such a useful tool in practice. It looks great in theoretical problems, but in practice the perfect "is a kind-of" relationship is rare.

The final nail in the coffin was Clojure's STM. Immutable data structures bring so many benefits that after using them for a while it is unthinkable to me right now to go back to mutating data in-place.


Thanks for the info.

>As for data modeling, I found that inheritance isn't such a useful tool in practice.

True. It can lock you into a particular style and hierarchy. Plus, inheritance just to inherit the methods of the superclass seems like overkill or sometimes might be a wrong approach. Personally I think composition can often be more flexible than inheritance.


implementation of an object model using racket

https://users.dcc.uchile.cl/~etanter/ooplai/


This is awesome!


But when you say “Lua” everyone complains that there is no class system, despite the fact that setmetatable(x, {__index=getfenv(1)}) is equivalent to bless().


This is pretty cool. Lays the guts even more bare than Perl OO.


Seconding the study of either/both CLOS or/and Perl 5. I didn't get what classes were all about in, say, Java or Ruby until I learned how to implement them as part of learning object-oriented Perl. Meanwhile, CLOS is a nice preview of some of the neat things possible with Perl 6's object model.




Guidelines | FAQ | Support | API | Security | Lists | Bookmarklet | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: