Maybe by a millimeter or so.
There is absolutely no way in hell a keyboard like this should be found on a laptop favored by software engineers.
I'm not sure if Apple is seeing the writing on the wall here, but why not just launch a developer line? Make it thicker, heavier, give it more battery, a keyboard with a proper amount of travel, larger keys, more keys, whatever. Ditch the retarded touch bar. More ram. More config options. More ports.
If they want to keep topping themselves on largely meaningless metrics and/or aesthetic self indulgence then by all means do so -- sell those to the rest of the market. The bulk of the market will buy the pretty ones.
Give me an uglier one that isn't so awful to actually use.
Or, seriously, start dying the death of a thousand cuts. I'm really close to pulling out of the Apple ecosystem and retooling for other work. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
What? Don't care about the people who work on iOS/macOS software professionally? Don't need us? Why don't you go talk to Microsoft about that.
I don't quite get it. Why are software engineers favoring such a laptop? Shouldn't this be worded the other way around? "There is no way a laptop with a keyboard like this should be favored by software engineers"...?
My last MacBook was a 2013. It has 16GB RAM and a 1TB SSD and I still use it. I'm somewhat desensitised to the price creep because I buy on the business but it just doesn't seem like I'm in the target market anymore.
I really like the aesthetic of a case that isn't a wedge shaped lump of plastic but that only gets you so far. I've bought an Intel Hades Canyon, put Linux on it and moved most of my development over to it. I'll probably get an XPS to put Linux on for when I'm on the move.
I am baffled though; the issues seem to be so widely felt I don't understand why a company with such wealth can't throw us a bone like the slightly thicker dev oriented machine suggested above. I'd have thought it in their interest but I guess not.
Even if they were interested, are we sure apple can still operate efficiently? A lot of large companies, including HP and Microsoft, hit a point where they have trouble getting even relatively simple things done (like replacing a keyboard).
Meeting with a team this month from Apple on a product purchased from the company I work for that (to my knowledge) had far fewer engineers—or at least engineers who would work with external engineers to the project.
Not that I'm directly comparing it to the xps, since the macbook pro is probably more closely related to the xps, but still there's no other device with 16gb RAM in that segment. In terms of CPU the performance is pretty much on par with the Macbook air although it's CPU was last updated in 2015
I don't have one. I still use my 4 year old Macbook air. The only thing that bothers me is that I usually dual boot with linux and the newer macbooks are getting worse to run linux on.
Is this a polite way of saying they're ugly?
Creating a new line probably costs Apple hundreds of millions in R&D costs, to say nothing of the opportunity costs from putting some of their best hardware engineers on this project. I would imagine that Tim Cook looks at the dev market, compares to the cost, and says “no fucking way”.
Of course add to that the fact that “heavy and thick” is not a plus to most software devs either. The real market is probably much smaller than you’d like to believe.
I sincerely doubt a model variant costs hundreds of millions either, or the majority of the laptop market would be unsustainable.
Dell, HP, and Lenovo also do not do what Apple is asked to do here. You can buy a thick heavy laptop from Dell. You cannot, however, buy a slightly thicker, slightly heavier XPS 13. If you want the flagship “ultra book”, you buy the one they sell. Otherwise you buy the plastic Inspiron or whatever which is an entirely different class of product and does not feel particularly premium.
Aluminium body is now premium? How about not sacrificing cpu life for fan noise? Or repairability. Or non-soldiered on ssd? Working keyboard? Why's that not premium?
Yes. I’m not sure what it accomplishes for you to feign ignorance here. When Apple started selling aluminum laptops, it was a big deal because it made everything on the market look low quality in comparison.
> How about not sacrificing cpu life for fan noise? Or repairability. Or non-soldiered on ssd? Working keyboard? Why's that not premium?
Because it’s not. Noisy fan to protect the CPU seems like the opposite of premium. Putting seat covers over the leather in a Mercedes is similarly not premium, because the experience suffers, even if the end result is better durability.
Non-soldered SSD? A thicker laptop for self-serve SSD swaps does not seem at all premium. Doing physical maintenance on my laptop in general does not feel premium. I expect it to work as I bought it. And yes, I would love it if I could cheap out and buy a basic laptop and upgrade it myself for half the cost, but that’s really not the premium experience. That’s the Honda Civic experience.
Keyboard? Shrug. They fucked up the design. Sucks, but Rolex has probably had to do some repairs in warranty before, too.
Yeah, but the majority of the laptop market aren't doing brain-damaged things like removing ESC keys, adding pointless touchbars and designing keyboards which are beautiful to look at but which fail at actual typing. And the majority of the laptop market don't have to pay for Sir Jonathan Ive to remove all colour, ornament, affordance and delight from the design, moving as close to a featureless white rounded-rectangular prism as possible as he can for this iteration.
It wouldn't surprise me if Apple have to pay an order of magnitude (or two) per model, just to end up with something which is ultimately sub-par.
If Apple is going to make iOS buggy and second rate, there goes my main reason to use an iPhone. Same with Mac hardware. Those are the parts that are supposed to be the good things about Apple - iOS and MacBook hardware quality were my reasons to buy their products.
Haven't regretted it once.
The machine I built for half the price of the equivalent Mac STILL makes me feel all warm and happy a year later. It feels weird to have more performance than I'd ever need, while spending so little. Windows 10 is perfectly usable, unlike multiple predecessors. WSL is amazing, and basically gives you that *nix-terminal-in-an-instance feel that used to be a unique feature of OSX.
It's easier than ever to switch, and there's less reasons than ever not to. Apple is treading dangerous waters I reckon. I seriously think if more Apple users knew how far Windows PCs had come, they'd be switching now, as I know I myself held off for a fair while just because I was hesitant to believe it had gotten that much better.
Almost every single tool/technology that I've come across in the last couple years has separate laborious and annoying installation instructions for windows. Many don't even support windows at the start.
Unless Microsoft rewrites windows as a *nix OS from scratch (not gonna happen), I don't see myself being willing to go back to it.
You can install Ubuntu from the Windows App Store and it’s the real thing, not an emulation layer like Cygwin. You don’t need separate install instructions — just follow the ones for Ubuntu.
It’s really an underappreciated amazing feature of modern Windows: you can run an entire Linux userland on the same kernel.
Oh well, linux works for me :)
Dell XPS 13 are popular and can be shipped and supported with Linux out of the box as well as Windows. XPS 15 can be an option if you're ok with some added weight and want more power.
Lenovo T-Series have been around for ages and generally have quite robust hardware. There's also the Carbon X1 if you want something lighter, or the Thinkpad P1 if you want more power.
HP Elitebooks - Similar to the other two these have a good range of options and good hardware build generally.
On the Microsoft side there's the Surface Pro's and also the surface book, which is very pricey but again has some nice hardware.
Of course all this depends on what you're looking for from a laptop, what is "worthwhile" is a personal judgement :)
I would celebrate this if not for the fact that they'd find a way charge €3000-5000 for it. RIP if you like to use a MacBook as a university student.
> What? Don't care about the people who work on iOS/macOS software professionally? Don't need us? Why don't you go talk to Microsoft about that.
All the Macs together present about 5-10% of Apple's revenue. On their scale, that's still a big chunk of money, but that figure makes it quite obvious why it takes the bank bench to the iPhone. Hell, I'm surprised they put as much effort in their iPads, considering those also only present ~10% of their revenue. The iPhones are the big money maker with around 70% of their revenue.
In other words, how much of Macbook's trackpad is in it's software?
A tonne. Compare how the trackpad acts in the restore system, and how it acts in MacOS: Two very different realms of quality.
Regardless, lenovo & dell's (x1 & xps) trackpads are on par with the macbook '15's trackpad. Apple has lost that advantage.
There's also long term vs short term effects. Your personal preference might feel great for you right now, but will lead to joint and back pain 5-10 years down the road. While the 'correct' way may feel highly unnatural right now, but may very well save you from much pain and anguish at some point in the future.
However, when I switch to my old Macbook Pro 2013, they keyboard feels so much nicer to me that I feel frustrated with my purchase.
Just disable the mouse in your vimrc, you'll be better off for it.
As a disclaimer: I have had at least 4 iterations of MBPs before starting at my current company and getting a 2015.
The previous keyboard wasn't great either, but at least there was a little travel, the layout doesn't suck, and it's not nearly as delicate as the butterfly keyboard.
For what it's worth, I type like anyone else does - but I do it a lot. That keyboard was in terrible shape by year 2. I hope the new keyboards are fixed... I have to use one for work (it's issued by my employer).
It feels weird to not want a brand new Apple laptop. I was just so disappointed by that keyboard and the touch bar though.
Except they don’t?
Or you'll just use a virtual machine?
I work with macOS users (and used to be one, many many years ago). I honestly feel that I'm far more productive with Linux, and that others I see using Linux are far more productive as well.
macOS is very pretty to look at, and it looks great in demos, but I believe it's less productive to actually use. Meanwhile, Linux is like a lever for my mind — or, to steal an old Steve Jobs line, a bicycle for my mind.
"I'm far more productive with Linux". I used to feel that way too, until I wanted to work primarily with laptops, and not have to worry about network drivers, or sleep mode, or worrying that upgrading something would require hours of figuring out what to recompile.
I've absolutely no doubt that some people reading this - perhaps even you - will tell me
* how I was doing something wrong, or
* I need to 'research my hardware before I buy it', or that
* you never ever have any of these problems, and every linux laptop you've ever had ran perfectly smoothly with no wifi/sleep/printing issues ever, and * it must be my fault because "ubuntu just works" (or fill in whatever the catchphrase of the day is)
I spent 8 years wrestling with Linux on laptops (desktop was generally less of an issue), and don't want to have that be my primary pain point. If I need direct Linux, I have remote servers, or virtual machines (either on macbook or windows).
Yes, I may truly miss the productivity of tiling window managers. And... heavens, yes, my bash is out of date. But somehow I survive.
And that beautiful UX that is the bouncing icons in apple's dock? Oh! New notification from an application, let's have an icon bounce in the dock for a full 45 minutes.
Apple is chock-full full of stupid design decisions, Linux has done surprisingly fine in comparison, particularly given the uneven investment, capital-wise.
Late last year I swapped back to linux, & gave it a firm shake after ~9 years of apple (I abandoned ship due to the lack of ports, + touchbar). My linux distro gave me a hassle just a few weeks ago, so I tried swapping back to my '17 macbook & couldn't stomach it for more than 30 minutes.
Give ubuntu or fedora a try, it's light-years ahead of what it used to be.
> awful UX as a bonus.
Mac shell felt arcane and overly verbose, like a weird powershell clone that doesn't pay the price for its verbosity with typed io, and doesn't have autocompletion like every normal shell on Linux. Out of all file managers I still prefer Explorer.exe but I'd take any manager on any Linux DE over Finder, same with notepad or image preview software. macOS doesn't even come with PC keyboard layout for my country, I had to fish for it on the internet, something so basic I doubt even Linux failed to screw up in the last 20 years.
Considering the price of these machines, I feel they're really playing with fire.
So if a web page is playing a muted ad with sound your media keys wont do anything if you try to pause iTunes.
That aside, the sharpness of the frame actually digs into my wrist - a little rounded would have made such a difference.
If it weren't for the Mac ecosystem and that only Apple can produce hardware, I think they would fix this.
I touch type and want to keep everything symmetrical around a central point.
I avoid using mice or keyboards with numeric keypads because I try to reduce the amount of off one sided movements.
I try to drive everything from the keyboard and from the homerow if I can.
If I really have to use a mouse, moving my right hand a few centimetres to use a trackpad is, for me, much more ergonomic than a larger movement to reach past a numeric keypad for a mouse.
Perhaps you can transform the trackpad into a keyboard using software ...
Just wait until Apple decide to "improve" that.
Other than the dust issue which I did have once (and got a keyboard replacement for), I am in the extreme minority when I say that I absolutely love the keystroke feel of this thing (MBP 2016). It's just the right amount of "clicky-clacky" and yet just shallow enough to hit a sweet spot for me.
So yes - they deserve flak for the dust issue. But the key travel and clackiness is really personal taste if you ask me...
I can't fully explain it - it just 'feels' right (after an initial bedding in period), I actually type /very/ fast on these keyboards - comparative to my desktop (with a Das series 4 with blue switches) which I personally found quite hard to admit (even to myself).
Obviously my experience is skewed due to not having any problems with recently low profile keyboards, but I am still quite astonished at how well I am typing not just on a laptop keyboard - but an ultra low profile keyboard.
Several people have noted to the theme of the fact that typing has quite a rhythm to it, so it’s not like an intermittent or seemingly random noise thus they don’t seem to find it distracting.
By contrast people would be seriously pissed if someone had a desk phone plugged in or a cell phone with an audible ring tone.
HN seems to be becoming like Reddit with such drive-by grudge-voting where everyone just wants the narrative they support to rise up and bury everything else.
Truth is, things that are actually objectively wrong (like flaky first-gen version of this keyboard) get fixed, and the rest is... subjective. I'm on a MBP with touch bar and I don't have a problem with it. I've never particularly liked any laptop keyboard, and at my desk I always plug in a mechanical keyboard, but I just don't get the pure frothing-at-the-mouth hatred for this thing. It's a laptop keyboard. It's not the best one I've ever used, but it's also nowhere near the worst.
My feeling is that this is the latest iteration of people wanting some particular design choice they disagree with to finally be the thing that opens everyone's eyes and proves that their hatred of Apple was perfectly objective and rational all along. But it never actually seems to, y'know, happen. And every year or two they all move on to writing endless articles about some new thing that will finally be the one that destroys Apple once and for all.
I do as well and I don't think we're in the minority, there are just a lot of loud people on the internet.
And I like typing on it very much. I previously had the preceding Apple external keyboard which had more travel, and considered getting a mechanical keyboard because 1. it's cool and 2. it's supposed to be nicer to type on, but due to circumstances I got this one and I'm actually quite happy with it. Wondering whether it would've been a good idea at all to try a mechanical one.
- fingerprint for unlock is a nice convenience
- 32GB RAM are nice. A much needed bump, allowing me run some workload on the client that previously required an additional workstation
- keyboard is noisy
- touchbar = useless gimick - I actually used the F-keys and ESC a lot, now they are effectively gone.
- touchpad much worse with it‘s fake press (i.e at drag and drop) and the increased size means more accidental inputs occur
- removal of magsafe ... „it just works“ apparently is too boring
- headphone jack moved to the right so the cable gets in the way of the mouse
- thermals ... I hear the fans spin up a lot more.
- port mono-culture. maybe usb-c is the future, but my present is now full of dongles
Google around and find out how to turn on 3 finger drag. I have no idea why they decided to hide this feature, but its the only sensible way to drag and drop on the trackpad.
You can go to the Keyboard section of System Preferences, and there's a drop down the lets you change back to F-keys ("Touch Bar Shows:")
I also use F-keys with modifiers for all sorts of shortcuts. I know that using layers and sticking to the home row can be more efficient, but being forced to use third party tools to restore basic functionality is not my understanding of “it just works”™ - it did work just fine before they broke it.
Then remap Caps Lock to Escape right now. There's no good reason not to, considering how easy MacOS makes it.
Can't help you with F-keys though. Never used them myself. On Mac OS there's usually an alternate keyboard shortcut. That row of keys is too far away from home row to be ergonomically useful.
My current keyboard doesn't have that row at all. Actually that was a bit of an issue since I'm using Windows with that keyboard, and unlike Mac OS, there's some real need for F-keys. So I had to remap F3 and F4, but that was all.
In my opinion, the trackpad is a really great idea on paper, as that row should never be used for frequent typing anyway. And it's pretty close to the screen, so it's not too far to look down. But it doesn't seem like they've managed to make it work in practice. I've seen some people who have had success with some customisation though.
I already remapped Caps Lock to Control. And I use Control a lot more than Escape.
I guess you meant "Touch Bar"
Apple hit near perfectionism with the 2015 keyboard/ current desktop keyboard line, please don't try to put a portable keyboard in a machine made for professionals, just to free an extra fraction of an inch in height.
Apple used to make the worlds fastest, yet beautiful to look at, portable workstations. Please don't forget us actual professionals who type all day and care less about fractions of inches and shiny emojis.
Call it the Macbook Actual Pro and charge more I don't care, I just wanna get back to work.
* I want a physical escape key so I configured caps lock to be escape
* The touchbar is pretty useless, and having it switching all the time is distracting so I set it to be "fixed" with only the buttons I use
* I like the keyboard, I just hope it won't fail me
* I really like the sensor to unlock with the fingerprint - I know it's been on thinkpads for years, but it's really convenient
So yeah, the only issue left is my fear of seeing the keyboard die because of dust... That's pretty much it.
Caps lock fails to properly engage on my 2015 MBP too, its not an issue solely of the new KB.
Sure there's issues, but I think people are kicking up WAY too much of a fuss. I too paid >$2000 for my 2017 MBP.
I'm somehow hoping some future model will have normal USB ports, HDMI and a normal keyboard... yeah like that's going to happen.
Now gotta figure out how to get this replaced in a timely manner without leaving my machine for weeks.
Having USB-C ports is great, having only USB-C ports is a constant annoyance.
And this is before getting into the absolute shitshow that is the cable situation. Lots of cables are USB2 only. There are passive and active TB3 cables. Active TB3 cables cannot support USB 3.1. There are 3A USB-PD cables and 5A USB-PD cables. Of course you can't tell any of this by looking at the cable, only by plugging things in and wondering why they don't work. And these are the problems with 100% spec-compliant cables before getting into all the companies that completely ignore the standard.
I've done A LOT of typing on this, no changes yet. I'm hoping it stays that way ;P
The whole keyboard was just a mess in just over a year, and it is not like I abused the machine. I only use it at a desk (either at home or at office) and don't eat at my desk (or do other activities that might cause excessive dirt to come close to the keyboard).
My 2015 keyboard (and all other keyboards I've ever owned) are all still fine. I've never experienced keyboard degradation like this.
The funny thing is... it isn't even the only one. Others I've tried had the same problem.
Do note that I don't disliked the keyboard when it was new. I thought it was just fine. I liked the clicky-ness and it felt like I could type on it pretty fast. The keyboard just got bad pretty fast. Going back to the 2015 model, I hated the 2015 keys as well for a while, for being so "mushy". At least they work great, and the "mushyness" I got used to pretty fast.
And I <3 my USB-A/HDMI ports. I hate donglelife... I have 0 USB-C devices
For all the advances in hardware and software, there is no longer a single good (by my lights) laptop option available on the market.
I'm also a bit surprised at the lack of good Windows software in some spheres - eg. there isn't a really good mail client (the built-in UWP one is a feeble toy). I slightly shamefully gave up and started forwarding my domain email to a gmail account.
The apple service comment was "high learning curve".
The in person visit quickly resolved everything :)
My next personal laptop will be a Surface.
Can you just "re-map" it so all actions do nothing?
instead we have the superficial appearance of design - thinner, lighter, but less useful
same with innovation - what is the TouchBar except a desperate attempt to innovate, achieving only the superficial appearance of innovation while actually producing something of no value
Only downside is that only 13”es are sold this way.
So, I think a lot of people who don't like it could probably like it if they approached it like I do. And, in my experience, you don't need that key travel. You have to get used to stopping the keypress when it registers the press. However, the keyboard gives very clear feedback about that.
If you compare it to other keyboards you use and expect the same thing, it will disappoint you. Accept it as something different that you have to use and think about differently.
It does not hamper my speed or accuracy at all. I can type about 80 WPM with a negligible error rate (<1%. Obviously, the error rate goes up if I type faster.) I can type perhaps even more quickly and accurately on this keyboard than any I have ever used, and key travel literally just wastes your time and aggravates (perhaps even causes) RSI.
And some PC Laptop keyboards are really nice, so it's not as though there aren't good options (My HP Elitebook 840G1 has been working well for ages and is really nice to type on)
The problem for Macbook users is that they're the only game in town, so if you don't like the direction of travel you're stuck.
I've got a similar problem on the phone angle. I like iPhones, I've had iPhones mainly since the 4, but I don't like the removal of ports. The removal of the headphone jack was a right pain for people who had paid good money for ANC headphones and lightning options are thin on the ground.
It's the challenge of a monoculture ecosystem...
> But PC makers has been building terrible keyboards for years and no one seems to give a damn. Or is everyone just assuming that keyboards are supposed to be that way on PCs?
MBP keyboards _stop functioning_. This means, you click on a key, and nothing happens, you get duplicatee keystrokess, or you have to press very hard to even get a keystroke.
I have never had a keyboard that stopped functioning from normal use in any laptop more expensive than $500, and the MBP I used to have I paid 1749 EUR for (not sure what that is in USD, maybe 2000?).
> think it's funny that now when Apple happened to make a truly awful keyboard, basically everyone is raging.
Are you kidding? No one is raging. Journalists kept giving their crappy laptops good reviews and there was no mention of keyboard problems anywhere for years even after many, many people complained.
It took Apple 2-3 class actions to even acknowledge the problem. I moved to PC at least a year ago because of this.
They're advertising like they make high-end stuff--much better than 99% of the other guys, and they can't even make a laptop good enough to be used as a laptop.
> The only thing I like about it is the profile which is rather low.
I guess you have gotten lucky and your keyboard is better, and you didn't read on what the whole problem is about.
If this years' Dell has a shitty keyboard then you can just get the Lenovo instead or vice versa.
No, that's not a fair comparison.
PC makers have made cheap or low-quality keyboards for years. But they've always been mostly functional, even if they didn't feel great. And if it had failed it's been easy (or at least possible) to replace. I've replaced keyboard keys and/or whole keyboards on laptops like the Lenovo Yoga and Dell Inspiron, for instance. It's a delicate process, but can be done with just a few screws or clips, at below $100 USD prices.
Apple made a defective unusable keyboard that intentionally can not be repaired and costs multiple hundreds of dollars to fix. That's a big, unique escalation of worst-case keyboard problems, hence the outrage.
I'm not aware of any major PC manufacturer shipping a keyboard that broken and that expensive in their flagship devices in decades. No laptop keyboard from Dell, HP, Asus, Acer, Toshiba, Microsoft, etc in the past 10 years was ever as bad as the keyboard Apple shipped all last year.
The closest thing I can think of is something like the Lenovo Yoga Book, but even that is a prototype device not replacing real Yoga lines (so real, reliable keyboards were still always available), and even that Yoga Book all-touchscreen keyboard is still more reliable than the previous MacBooks physical keyboard.
The point of a laptop is integration, and if you want integration you have to have what the manufacturer provides. Also, if you need macOS, and a laptop, there's not much choice.
A MacBook Pro can easily be a £500-1000 premium over an equivalent spec Dell laptop, and who knows how much over a similar spec PC. You should get a good keyboard for that money.
Hopefully Apple will continue making awesome external keyboards and not suddenly decide to mess this up by making them stupidly thin, or removing the extra USB ports (so useful!) or converting them to USB C so need dongles to be useful.
I don't know if it's a personal thing, or if you just get used to a specific type of keystroke over time, but different people like different keyboards.
True, but I think a lot of people feel the problem is that Apple has neglected the "Pro" aspect of the "MacBook Pro". The new pro's don't feel like a machine made for professionals; it's tailored for the average casual user. E.g. professional software developers don't need a damn touchbar. I want my effing escape key
"How bad is the keyboard anyway?" I thought, "Is it worth the hassle to change my laptop just to get the latest keyboard design?" So I decided to keep the same laptop and give it a chance.
Two months later and today, my previous gen MBP's keyboard's "Down" arrow key on the keyboard have 50/50 chance of responding to your presses, and it's driving me crazy
For my personal laptop I have an 18 month old 12 inch MacBook and I love it. The keyboard is fine because I want my personal laptop to be small and light, with a good display.
That doesn't mean it's been great: I went through three of keyboards, and would be on my fourth except that the MB had an unfortunate water incident. So in two years I had almost two weeks of not having my machine available -- that's pretty bad!
New I've had a 2018 MBP for about three weeks and the keyboard is better (but the machine is a lot heavier) and so far no kbd failures. (The touchbar is pretty worthless to me but mostly harmless).
(Honestly if you're typing in a lot of code and just typing make and lldb the MB was a great ultralight machine. YEs, building our whole system took a while but mostly you're just ending and recompiling one module and it's still faster than most several-year-old machines, which in the Mac world could reasonably still be in use. It doesn't have the horsepower for those huge IDEs but I don't use them anyway. They seem to use more cycles than the compilers!)
But... I think with the new 2018s they've done some nice things.
You still have a stupid stupid touch bar on the 15s. I have a 13 without the touch bar, and it's a billion times better.
You still have a silly silly large track pad (and it has some bend to it in the middle... I don't like it at all).
BUT... the keys have just a tad more bounce to them. I think Apple did something to help with the dust issue, and a side effect is that the keys feel just a bit more responsive as you type.
Not saying it's great, or better than past versions, or even good yet... but it's a step in the right direction. And honestly it's probably all we'll ever get from Apple... so I'll take it. Hooray for keyboards that aren't quite as bad as the "new" pre-2018s!
Then it's a 2017 as the FN one was untouched by the 2018 refresh.
Why should they give the average person the ability to type? Their buisness model is focused on passive consumption.
Typing this on a very crappy 2018 MBP keyboard, which I absolutely hate. If it weren't for the dependency that my job has on submitting apps to the App Store, I wouldn't be using Apple for anything these days .. sad.
I use a MBP 2018 and thought the keyboard was the same as the 2016-2017 MBPs (since the arrival of the touchbar).
It's understandable that you dislike the keyboard; feedback is awkward, like a shallow hard button button press as opposed to a keypress.
However, over time I have grown to prefer this keyboard over the 2015 one with the deep keys, and can actually type faster on the new one as well. The only thing I find absolutely useless and inconvenient, is the touchbar.
My previous 15" 14' MBP was nearly my favorite laptop experience ever. Exactly that but newer chassis and as a 14" would buy again.
(Typing since late 80s)
If you found the 2014 MacBook Pros enjoyable, I think you'll be even happier with these. I certainly am.
And yeah, I find the touchbar useless and distracting, mostly. The thing just flashes stupidly in every app I use, and I'm pretty fatigued at having to ignore it. 20 minutes usage in iTerm is enough to drive me bonkers.
Seriously hope that Apple gets its act together for next years MacBook upgrade. I regret this purchase already.
I use a MacBook Pro 2018 15 inch for daily work. I recently briefly used my MacBook Pro 2013 which has the older scissor switch keyboard. I never want to go back to that keyboard again. The newer design feels much better and allows me to type quicker.
The touch bar, yeah not very useful for me either, except for logging in with the fingerprint reader which is superb.
I am now one step closer to just be buying a tablet like an iPad with an external keyboard.
I wish Apple listened to developer's voices a bit more. To me, it's not a matter of price, either. I'd gladly pay more for a MBP with more/different ports and without a touchbar than I would for this model.
There is definitely a problem with the dust though, two keys already start to act weird and I keep my tech stuff clean.
Many more people aren't having issues. Nor did I when I had an MBP (which I swapped for an iMac + 12" MB, and I'm thinking of getting the 2018 ones.) This isn't to downplay your concerns, but calling it "suicide" is hyperbole.
The more things change... :)
Scott Forstall was fired (IMO, for a lot less) for the Apple Maps fiasco, though he could’ve contributed a lot more to the company if he were still around.
Something seems to be rotten right from the top, and there’s no honest acknowledgement of how bad the state of affairs is on the Mac side.
Selling old and outdated hardware for high prices (set during product launch time) is even more insulting to the Apple brand.
I know that Apple’s organizational structure is also to blame, but clearly it shouldn’t take so many years to even get started on fixing things and showing some results.
Apple is losing with this attitude and negligence. One can only hope that it starts showing that it is serious about walking the talk sometime soon.
It was probably never true but they gave the illusion of caring intensely about making delightful products.
All that changed when Apple's market interests shifted to larger, more lucrative consumer markets. Now things like good emoji support are more important that keyboard shortcuts for window management.
Apple is doing exactly what they should for their shareholders, I guess, but since they've gone all "Barney the Dinosaur" they just doesn't have the magic anymore for me. :(
Now their stuff just feels like dodgy "smart" TVs full of janky animations and features you know some exec thought was cool for a day.
If Apple was still Apple they'd be able to make announcements at their keynotes about fundamental stuff missing from macOS like, say, package management and make it sound cool. The magic is that they'd get non-nerds to care about it too.
The main annoyance I have with it is that it's incredibly loud to type on when in meeting rooms, which is the only time I really use it (I have a full size Apple m=Magic Keyboard I use at my desk). It's obnoxious, especially if you're not using an external mic.
But why do people want beautifully designed objects? Just to own something beautiful? Sure.
But also because it makes you look cool, attractive to members of the opposite sex, and earns the jealousy of yours.
But a keyboard which sucks ain't cool: sure the externals are great, but wrestling with a stuck capslock is the opposite of exuding je ne sais quoi.
Not cool Apple. Not cool. And therefore not beautiful.
You really think a laptop has that effect on people? I do not.
Of course a laptop doesn't have that effect on people! I was being tongue in cheek. But beautiful objects in general - think fine art, expensive watches, etc - sure.
I only wished Apple acknowledged this and offered something as an apology. After all, this is what any car / phone / anything else company would do.
It's fine to make mistakes, just embrace them and send love back to your users.
Without some decent amount of travel distance, a keyboard lacks feel. I type 130WPM and can not develop a rhythm on the new MacBook pros. To the day, I love the MacBook Air and previous MacBook Pros circa 2015. In fact, I may buy one on eBay. Apple, give us back travel distance.
If you want to do live browser testing in all major browsers, you need a Mac, and you can do it with no other hardware, as you can virtualise all of Windows/Linux/Android/iOS under macOS.
Based on https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd031426, Lenovo support for Linux distro's is a mixed bag of "fuck you" and "Enterprise Edition", so "full control" is likely to mean "Full Responsibility", too.
Why would any developer prefer to run a hardware/software combination that has zero support if something fails, and predictably endless issue volleyball between h/w and s/w vendors if you happen to use one of the specific combinations that has support, over running hardware and software that is supported by a single company?
Personally, I prefer to spend my working hours actually making money. If you prefer to be endlessly tweaking kernel parameters or driver settings because you updated some software and now your trackpad works in reverse, well then good luck to you sir.
I agree, that's probably the only valid reason for a developer to prefer a Macbook over a Thinkpad: if he needs to develop software for Apple hardware. But in the age of React Native and Electron, I never had to develop specifically for iOS / MacOS.
> Lenovo support for Linux distro's is a mixed bag of "fuck you" and "Enterprise Edition", so "full control" is likely to mean "Full Responsibility", too.
In practice, most Linux desktop distributions are developed and tested by people working on Thinkpads. In a non-Apple world, it's the OS developers who decide what hardware they support, not the hardware company.
> If you prefer to be endlessly tweaking kernel parameters or driver settings because you updated some software and now your trackpad works in reverse, well then good luck to you sir.
I don't remember having to tweak a single thing on my default Linux desktop installation since 2013. Everything just works out of the box, if you pick Fedora Workstation or Ubuntu, and your hardware wasn't released 5 days ago.
> Personally, I prefer to spend my working hours actually making money.
Yet, I see here people spending their working hours complaining about the hardware they bought from Apple, and the software Apple shipped to them with that hardware, as if they had no other choice in life.
It's a bad sign you're already talking in absolutes.
> in the age of React Native and Electron, I never had to
So, you release apps that you've literally never tested on the platforms you support? I bet they work great.
Arguing that Electron is a reason not to use a Mac, is like arguing that McDonalds is a reason not to learn how to cook.
> most Linux desktop distributions are developed and tested by people working on Thinkpads
Great and I assume they'll be on-call to fix your issues at 3am when something goes wrong?
> it's the OS developers who decide what hardware they support
So.. it's "full control", so long as you pick a distro whose developers/maintainers have chosen to support the combination of devices in the laptop spec you chose.... sounds great.
> if you pick Fedora or Ubuntu
So now it's "full control" so long as you pick one of two distros, and hardware that meets their requirements to support...
> Yet, I see here people spending their working hours
Oh, I must have missed the new "posting during work hours" flag.
Also - I'd argue that most people on HN don't get paid hourly, they're paid a salary, so if they fuck around on HN for 40 minutes whinging about their laptop, it doesnt actually cost them anything.
> as if they had no other choice in life
Of course their are choices. I didn't reply to you because you said "I use Distro X on Hardware Y and it works great", I replied because you said "Why would any developer prefer a Macbook running MacOS, over a Thinkpad running Linux?".
People complain about "personal anecdotal evidence" being pretty low value - but it's still fucking better value than making blanket, absolute statements, which upon further digging are in fact nuanced with layer after layer of caveats and unstated details.
There are hundreds of Linux desktop distributions, because unlike in the Apple-world, PC users actually do have a choice. I mentioned the ones I have most experience with, because I cannot recommended to others what I haven't used extensively myself.
I was forced to work on MacOS for a year, and even though it was much better than Windows, it was still far away from the experience a complete Linux workstation can provide to a developer.
Convenience > control
It’s crazy how apple managed to turn my most loved machine into my most hated with just a single design update.
I'm so close to "office-spacing" this keyboard.
This one in particular broke the site guidelines - see the last bit of https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
First, they do, and they do it often. Second, it's not just a personal biased opinion without any factual basis.
Last spring my laptop running linux finally gave up and I decided to give the MBP a try.
- MUCH better hardware than anything else on the market.
- The keyboard is great for me. Leaving mech keys on desktop doesn't feel as bad as it used to. I haven't encountered any inconsistency this article complains about with so many words--maybe I'm an outlier.
- MacOS requires just about zero maintenance.
- Better consumer software (DRM) compatibility (audible, hbogo, etc).
- Better creative software compatibility.
- The OS is pretty well tuned for battery life (I'm sure linux can be, I just didn't expend the effort).
- Much more difficult to customize. I do miss just how tuned I got my linux setup with a tiling WM (i3). I haven't lost significant productivity though.
- Brew is not a first class package manager. Pacman/AUR and apt are a dream for developers.
- Boot time is noticeably slower. At least it don't drop you into the OS with about 1,000 other processes in the scheduler like windows does.
This list is not exhaustive. But I'd not feel bad saying that the MBP is the best laptop experience. On a side note I also switched to iOS from android and am similarly satisfied.
For a no fuss, non free eco-system apple is still king despite any recent stumbles.
One of the famous quote from Steve " If we succeed, they will buy them, if we don't, they won't! It will all sort itself out" .
The problem now are Apple products are getting bought no matter what they make. Businesses are now buying more Mac than ever. Whether we like it or not. The sales figure aren't showing how we vote with our wallet. The Mac Ecosystem has morphed itself into a mini PC market where its replacement unit are sustainable for the Mac business as a whole. There should be now close to ~120M Mac users and an annual 25M Mac sales unit, healthy for a 4 years replacement cycle.
And it is frustrating because 3 years after this Keyboard introduction and despite many of its users best effort and cried for improvement. Nothing has been done. The 2018 MacBook Pro keyboard are still getting double click and non working keys on Reddit and twitter. ( Sorry I can no longer locate the thread ). I guess more reports will come in as time pass by. And it is not as quiet as the MacBook Air Keyboard either.