I just started a new position, I have to learn at least 2 new languages (on my own time) which I need to be proficient in basically immediately. My very first project was, fix something in this new project which uses a new language, you have 3 days. And I felt lucky to have been given 3 days instead of 1 so I could learn the language. And then dozens of new frameworks and complex tools, complex and evolving architecture. In 2 months I will have my first week as being the point person to fix anything that goes wrong in production. And I feel like this is ok, this is normal.
I wonder if most engineers now are just permanent amateurs hopping around between tools and projects, learning just enough to make it work without breaking, but not knowing how to build things properly. How many years would it take to really become expert in that language? Even if you focused all your time on that, by the time you have mastered it another language will have come along to replace it, or the language itself will have been transformed into something new.
If you stay still and become an expert in something you run the risk of losing your relevance and not being able to get another job in just a few short years. 25 years? Will the company you work for even be around in 25 years? Doubtful.
Then again, back then they didn't have Stackoverflow and all the resources we have now that make it possible to learn so much so quickly.
Then I got good at Java + Spring
Then I got good at React + Redux
Now I gotta get good at Python + Django and the damn magic it does.
Next I gotta get good at Scala.
It is frustrating. And I feel that had I spent 10 years in any of those I could really make amazing things in each one. But instead I feel like a generalist. Jack of all trades.
And that's just the last 5 years. Before that was dozens of java frameworks, knowing differences between 4 different databases and wielding sql like a master, and more.
The worst parts are:
- Front-end engineers are looked down upon while I LOVE coding in React + Redux + ES6js. Wish it was TypeScript.
- React changes damn near daily.
- I really want to deeeeeeep dive in a tech but I feel lots of FOMO that if I don't study a hot new tech I'm screwed. (Except Vue. Vue is the same paradigm as Backbone / Ember)
- I have a kid, time is limited to learn new languages.
If you know js and web standards then anything on the frontend is just a new application of the same ideas. If you know a bit of networking and a bit of operating systems then web development in python/django/Scala are all just interesting new ways to say basically the same thing.
If you know the specs then you don't need to find out about technology by following 100 different blogs.
Occasionally there will be new fundamentals to learn but you'll be ready because you won't have a backlog of relearning framework X's new way of saying "hello, world".
It's better to be a good programmer that's deeply experienced in a domain, then a great scala developer that doesn't understand the domains he's working in.
I'm more in the distributed space so I know elixir and scala very well with actor model and distributed coordination tools in my toolbelt. I'm not the best scala engineer but I can get shit done and it will be correct and work through all of the pathological conditions because I've seen a lot in this area. If you asked me to build a webpage I'd fall apart but I'm good at that specialization and have all of the tools I need to work with the technology I know today, and to build on to learn whatever technology is needed tomorrow (eg I've been working with elixir for a year but I'm extremely proficient at it because of my 6 years of akka experience)
I work for a competitor to General Dynamics in practically the same field (as close as you can get in 2018) as Mr. Ray Livesay.
Counting the acquisition, I've been with the same company for 11 years, having worked my way up from being a technical writer to programmer to systems engineer.
When I wanted to transition from programmer to systems engineer, I went to school to get my Master's and the company paid for most of it.
Sometimes I feel like an alien, reading about other working programmers and engineers, because everyone here has their own office, has worked here for years, is happy, enjoys great benefits, the company promotes from within, and encourages professional development.
But then I go to our "competipartners" and their offices are set up the same way, their benefits are within a marginal twist of a dial up or down here or there, and when I go to trade shows I see the same people with the same employer polo shirts year after year after year.
The only reason I'll leave my employer is if, in a couple of years after I transition to "senior" systems engineer there isn't a position on a contract or program that will support my labor category.
Maybe aerospace is the field you want to look at getting into? There are no "rock star" programmers, just people who work 9-5.
It is not really appealing to most younger folks because we aren't a bunch of "hip young urban professionals" with MacBooks clustered around a communal workspace in a downtown startup incubator in a converted loft/warehouse lit by faux edison light bulbs in iron-pipe light fixtures with a pinball machine and some scooters in the corner.
We're a bunch of old dudes in a generic office park. And we're paid in "lots of money" instead of "a little bit of money with tons of stock and a promise".
I recently went to a startup but I don't know if they will make it, and I would love a company with private offices and a bit of stability. But I'm afraid I'll be left looking at the other companies left i haven't de-FAANG-ed yet. What is the name of your company?
Stock is not pay. As the old saying goes, "A bird in the hand is worth N in the bush, where N is a value that people whose profession is to guess the value of N cannot guess the value of."
It's not, but it'd also be foolish to ignore that RSU's can be fairly easily exercised and translate into real money. It's probably more accurate to say that the stock isn't worth the face value, but RSU's certainly does have value at public companies.
"I have an offer from OtherCo. But I'd like to stay here. Could you match it?"
"We don't negotiate salaries."
However, it also sounds extremely expensive to run a business with everything you described. It might only be possible because you appear to work in the group of large corporations that exist off of a government contracting system that has been criticized as being fundamentally broken. Projects cost way too much, take too long, and are frequently late and over budget anyway. I've heard a lot of that has to do with the government constantly asking for changes and asking for too much, but whatever way you slice it the only reason it works is because it is basically non-competitive. Does your company create successful consumer products?
Spacex is aerospace too, but they are disrupting their industry. I wonder if all the engineers there get their own offices and stay in the same roles for years, with the same technology.
I don't have enough experience to know which works best, letting engineers become professionals in their niche, making the business not very adaptable but having some deep strengths, or moving fast and breaking things, being adaptable and fast moving, but have some crappy code gluing things together that will need replacing in a few years.
They were still teaching this shit at my school in the 90s. Encouraged you to take COBOL II because "there's so much old code around you'll always have a job" (left out the part about a job you'd rather kill yourself at).
Peter Gibbons was updating code for the Year 2000 switch over.
The CS school within the state school in this city is sponsored by one of those companies, and they still teach (2018!) COBOL as a course req--obviously as a way to train up talent--but the fact that it's still taught today boggles the mind for me as a web developer learning something-newJS every week.
This is basically why I continually fail to make it as a web developer, at the times I'm forced to try. Even though I enjoy the work just fine, I don't have anywhere near the passion to keep up with every new framework on my own time.
1980s programmer: sits down at the typewriter and bangs out a fixed width table, finishes with a signature.
--signed, real 1980s programmer
current resume http://linkedin.com/in/maggieleber
My resume read RESUME(8) across the top. One person got the joke. One. I went back to using TeX until everyone refused anything but a word doc. Mostly so they could take your information off and replace it the agency info.
it generally doesn't matter, because most HR employees probably have one where you're from.
But the smell of typewriter ink. Man, I miss it.
The mess is still there but only now one keeps the detritus of all of one's creative efforts, all the previous discarded attempts, silently gunked up in the recesses of the forgetful mind.
One would argue that version control might be sufficient to trace the evolution of ideas. But no. One would still miss the violence of the mind changes, of reckless scribbles or of reattempts that often take place in between the commits. Things are forever lost in the virtual trashcan and it's blunt implement, the backspace.
And I suspect that this went on longer in traditional big iron shops.
Knuth still does use a pencil and paper, as far as I know. He only types the manuscript in Emacs once he has composed it.
For bonus points, find a generic document preview library (a la macOS Preview), render images of everything in the Recycle Bin, and use these as the textures for all the crumpled bits of paper. And use a procedural physically-based renderer to make all the crumples move as you walk around the room!
Potentially also make all the videos in the Recycle Bin play on the crumples.
I'm completely serious; this will exist eventually. You might as well make it, you have the romantic motivation for it.
(okok, it's Saturday so can we have this as a top level reply?)
It definitely is, not just to see what technologies were in use, but what an exemplary career in that field looked like, so thanks for sharing. It's just that the first thing that went through my head was this joke, since it's really something that isn't too far fetched situation wise (see that one longer reply).
About 6 years ago, my uncle was still working at a big car manufacturer. They have bounties for when employees come up with ideas to optimize some workflow or cut costs somewhere. He handed in a suggestion to stop computing big reports on one of their mainframes that were meant for being printed out but weren't actually for quite some time, so basically just went to /dev/null, while the generation process took quite some time. There was quite some confusion first since the IT people in charge insisted no such thing was going on, so they had him show them where this job was actually wired in and where the output went. In the end they decided to remove it and paid him some reward. How did he know? He coded that job in the 80s.
I guess your dad would have quite some interesting stories too.
* My uncle was actually a maths teacher, but right when he finished college there was absolutely no demand, so a friend already working there got him on board. He learned cobol while trying to figure things out there, reading books day and night...
Sorry about that. I have this theory on dementia that part of the cause (stress among other things) is a change from an intellectually demanding career or a life involving thinking and a change to either retirement or not having to do much thinking. The delta in other words.
So my question is does any of this relate to your father? Did he remain active in thinking past his retirement?
The one common reason why all replacement attempts falter if not fail. No one knows all the touch points. No one knows exactly what they really do. Oh its easy to say "that machine is the warehouse inventory and related" but on a grand scale that is a fine description. it is when you get into all the custom interfaces, all the different systems relying on it, then it becomes a whole different ball game.
I full expect the z, i, and p, machines to all be there in the next ten to fifteen years for the same reason they are here now. it gets really expensive to replace something when you don't even know what you truly have. when you do find out it can be far more economical to keep what you got but be more diligent where new apps reside.
All this to say: the idea that resumes and interviews would stay out of your personal life is a rather modern concept.
And Paul Allen's -
Also looked up the cost of Harvard tuition in those days: $5,350 (about $27.5K in 2018 dollars)[https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1974/3/5/faculty-announce...]
I guess even programmer salaries haven't kept up with the cost increase in higher education...
Further, not more than 20 years ago, when I went to many interviews in person in Salt Lake (a very conservative town) I was asked about religion, at a car dealership where I was trying to get a job as a car salesman. I had a second interview at a bank, and when the interviewer saw a tiny diamond chip in my ear, told me to turn around, that he wasn't interested, and I was on my way. I was told that at a high-class tourist restaurant downtown that they didn't hire waiters, as they only had waitress uniforms, I was told at a grocery store in Ogden, that I couldn't be a cashier, as they only had women's uniforms for the cashiers, men/boys would only work as box boys.
As little as 8 years ago, I was told I was a bit old to keep up with walking around a college campus to perform the work on desktop PC's in a timely manner. (I was 48 at the time). I have been kept out of many positions due to my current age at this point, regardless of my mental abilities, and the fact that I had most definitely kept up with the current levels of technology as verified by my current Microsoft, and other certifications.
So yeah, discrimination is alive and well in the greater U.S. and we are screened via a multitude of forms using technology, or personal interviews, or whatever is at hand.
I don't look at someone's LinkedIn profile before interviewing them...
Not typical of the 80s
AFAIR at least
> “The old air force designs were all based on finding pilots who were similar to the average pilot,” Daniels explained to me. “But once we showed them the average pilot was a useless concept, they were able to focus on fitting the cockpit to the individual pilot. That’s when things started getting better.”
Or else he hasn't written a resume in 25 years because he's worked for the same company and just wrote it like the last time he did coming out of the military :D
1951 - Graduated SD State.
1964-1965 UC Extension Cobol
1968 UC Extension Fortran
1968-1969 UC Extension Systems and Procedures/Data Processing
1968-1969 IBM 370 Assembler Language
The message is always be learning, never just get a degree and then never go back to learning something new. It helps with neural plasticity and it keeps you engaged and employable.
This applies only to countries like US, where higher education is actually good.
In rest of the world the university tutor lacks skills.
Tomorrow I guide some teenage punk through the wasteland of mobile development. Undoubtedly he's gonna throw some new shit at me. Hah!
That said when young people blithely get their smart faces on and start talking about REST I cannot avoid the old fogey suspicion that they don't know a damn thing they're talking about.
It's also understandable that once people find a tool which they like enough to sink some time into learning properly, that they then cling to it a bit.
But I'm inclined to think that anyone who chose Spring for that position either has pretty bad taste, or simply hasn't bothered to look at a second tool.
An SSN was not designed to be a unique secret identifier held by every individual. But we have used it that way, and built a house of cards on it.
"In 1938, a leather factory in Lockport, New York attempted to capitalize on the excitement around the country’s newly-formed social insurance program by tucking duplicate Social Security cards into its wallets. Company vice president and treasurer Douglas Patterson thought it would be cute to use the actual Social Security number of his secretary, Hilda Schrader Whitcher.
Real Social Security cards had just begun circulating the year before, so many Americans were confused. Even though the display card was marked "specimen" and sold at Woolworth’s, more than 40,000 people adopted Hilda’s number as their own. According to the Social Security Administration, no fewer than 12 people were still using their Woolworth’s-issued SSN in 1977."
Suppose your number is 123-45-6789. If an attacker can uncover that you were born in Springfield in December 1989, they can deduce that the first 5 digits are likely 123-45. Now, there are only 9999 possibilities for what your full SSN might be.
Moreover, the only random bits are routinely used by utility companies, hospitals, etc. as an oral password and written identifier. If someone reads or overhears that your last 4 are 6789 and knows when/where you were born, they have a frighteningly good chance of discovering your SSN.
This is a loss. The competition was good. Success brought respect, and failure brought shame. Everybody had an extra incentive to put in more effort.
If you wanna work in hip startups then I guess it's different but if youre like me and working in boring industry like IBM and defense contractors, it's still like this. I'm old and boring, my job is a means to gain money, nothing more.
I don't spend a weekend tweaking css either, just a simple text resume simply formatted that I created in Google Docs and FWIW since I started working in industry my resume has had 90%ish success rate in getting job interviews. Of course, I also have only applied to jobs I'm interested in and I don't job hop like crazy.
Many companies these days install tracking software on workstations, as well as for programming challenges during the interview process.
IBM and defense contractors are known for the good old boy game, so your mindset is not surprising. I used to work at Ball and was pushed out for complaining about every single face in every single meeting being white, so I'm something of an authority on this subject.
>I used to work at Ball and was pushed out for complaining about every single face in every single meeting being white
I doubt that's why you were "pushed out..." Or maybe "complaining" was not done in a constructive manner.
(My uncle thinks he gets "pushed out" of all the jobs he's ever had because of some silly reason like this but it's actually because he has poor work ethic and doesn't get along with others. I used to listen to him talk to dispatch when he was a truck driver living with us...uhhh it was embarrassing to listen to...)
Also, I'm a woman myself, FWIW.
 stuff like "my boss promoted my coworker over me because she's pretty." That was the last "reason" he had.
I've gotten almost every job I've applied for based on that + the interview. The few I haven't gotten, weren't because of the resume (I've always asked why, so I could improve).
The company is getting a steal and I’m learning. I have one more aggressive jump I can do in the next 3 years before I top out in my market without going into management.
It doesn’t matter as long as the company you got into was good lol (it wasn’t like that for me)
I wrote my comment to inspire people to look at jobs they normally wouldn't, because I believe applying for a wide range of jobs is a good strategy for learning about the labor market.
How do you get a response?
While simpler times are attractive, I'm glad we have so much choice.
You had to seek out jobs in newspaper listings in local or national newspapers (international too). I would get people applying for jobs back in early 90s who thought that having a modem at home and having read one programming book qualified them for the job.
No coding interview in those days, but you were let go in a day or week if you could not perform what you said you could do during your first two tasks.
I think so and I wish it was the case. It was always frustrating, when I worked at large companies where poor performance wasn't an easily fireable offense, that it led to quality performance not being an easily laudable trait. I've also found in states and companies that are willing to fire bad developers (as opposed to, say, stringing them and the sub par side of the industry along), the cream has an easier time reaching the top. Sadly, due to sympathy for the employee and hate for the employer, many places make it harder for your signal flourish simply because of the protection of the noise.
If ten people apply for a position and their resumes all look good the company needs some way to determine who to hire.
Almost 40 years later, phone numbers are on the way out, DOBs are "illegal" and github and email are more important information on a CV.
I remember that.
"Still in all, every night we does the tell, so that we 'member who we was and where we came from..."
And yet recruiters frequently request them up top on resumes.
> Cyber- is derived from "cybernetic," which comes from the Greek word κυβερνητικός meaning skilled in steering or governing
You might notice it's the same word from which 'Kubernetes' comes from, though Kubernetes is a more legitimate sounding word without the (modern) palatalization of C.
Weird, I feel the opposite way. To me "kubernetes" feels like someone couldn't come up with a name, so they obscured an existing word and hoped no one would notice. It's like calling "tumblr" "a more legitimate-sounding word than 'tumbler'". Why transliterate Greek the normal way when you can do it your own, less accurate way?
> without the (modern) palatalization of C
Huh? You could describe the change in Italian as palatalization; [s] is not a palatal sound at all, and the change in question took place many hundreds of years ago. Modern?
Incidentally, pronounced "cyber-NEET-iks", originally.
And explicitly intended to apply to biological and social systems. Also: The human use of human beings : cybernetics and society (1954).
I always go completely clean shaven with a bald head when I interview.
Nevertheless, once you go there in person for your interview, people will notice anyway.
In the USA discrimination is 100% legal if 1) the group being discriminated against is not specifically defined as a protected group under law OR 2) it's a legitimate job requirement.
Requiring programmers to know how to program also discriminates against non-programmers but non-programmers aren't a protected group.
Requiring a stocker to be able to lift 30 pounds discriminates against the disabled. The disabled are a protected group, but it's a legitimate job requirement for a stocker to be able to move the stock around.
If you're hiring for a senior engineer it's not illegal discrimination because 1) it's a legitimate job requirement and 2) young people are not a protected group under law (only people over 40 are)
Or use a “functional” style resume.
I'd like to know the brand. Almost 40 years old and not yellowed - that's amazing.
Exposing it to sunlight and/or excessive heat will cause it to age. If it's high cellulose paper, like a newspaper, it will generally yellow quickly regardless of the storage because newspaper is cheap and acidic and not intended to last.
aren't you expecting a little bit too much?
Don't get me wrong, its great if you do... but knowing about upcoming encryption standards is imo something a security engineer should be fluent in, not a web developer.
Tuning performance and setting up logging is another matter.
Yes: it helps the developer to learn to code much more defensively - which is a very good thing. But then, that developer has no time to code. Defensively, or otherwise.
(depending on the environment, and management's willingness to invest in infrastructure - yeah, you can really get bogged down in this stuff).
We're talking about the changelog of TLS 1.2 to 1.3, not the general attack vectors for web applications.
Here's an indeed.com search for "cm" that pulls them up: https://cn.indeed.com/jobs?q=cm
You don't need to be able to read Chinese to know that a 160cm bust size requirement is implausible...
I wish people would stop including the information as then it takes away the risk that they can't later claim that they didn't get the job because of their age, sex, martial status, etc.
They have some guidance on how to encourage equal opportunities in the job application process , the monitoring questions here  should be seen as things that should not be asked in a standard application process, nor included in a CV.
There's many attributes that we can't legally discriminate against when someone applies for a position . We might be a little more aware of trying to ensure the process is fair and balanced, and it's certainly quite different from other parts of the UK and Europe.
*edit - fixed formatting of references
In the UK it seems it's perfectly alright to have a farm owner appear on a TV news station and be completely unchallenged as she is almost boastful about how she discards applications from one EU country's workers because another EU's countries workers are better and don't complain as much.
This is prima facie the very thing that equality legislation is there to prevent -- generalizations being applied to individuals based upon something beyond their control, such as nationality of birth.
If you found a way to survey small employers in a way they felt comfortable about answering truthfully, they will have notions about many nationalities. Some will be generalizations that on average apply poorly to the individual, some will apply better. Almost all will be based on a ridiculously unrepresentative sample size that is likely heavily biased towards a particular segment of the population. This is in spite of some of the most advanced equality legislation in the world.
The tech industry has some pretty poor generalizations about the work produced by certain nationalities.
For many employers equality starts and ends with an equal opportunities monitoring form stapled to the back of an application form that the applicant is to complete for a job that they already have no chance of getting. Even getting rid of names, education, past jobs and on CVs and application forms is not going to change that.
This is HN I suspect that no one on here is "casual labour"
It was implied that you had to fill out the template properly, including adding a photo, and as a result we were sending unnecessary personal information to all companies we applied to.
So then, I exhaustively detailed every past project on my resume. At every interview: it's excruciatingly clear, nobody read the fucking thing.
Junior engineers who I interview, know this: Even if my boss hands me your resume the day before, I will read every single word, and I will pay attention, and understand what it means in context of your background. 3 pages is my upper-limit for patience. Your competence is usually demonstrated by about halfway down the second page.
I guess she doesn’t think that when reviewing 100 applications a screener might not want to constantly scroll.