<salesman>I bought a 2016 fully-loaded REX with 5,000 miles for under $25K, sticker was $58K. Factory warranty for 4 years, 8 years on the battery. Fastest BMW from 0-40mph. This thing flies for urban commuters. It comes with a charger that can plug into a conventional socket which can be nice for people who don't have the means to install a 240v. Fun to hack with BimmerCode to customize all sorts of stuff. My big complaint is the rear door system is awkward. It also rides a little high so I put 1" lowering springs and 15mm wheel spacers which greatly improved handling.</salesman>
I'm also interested in testing the Jaguar iPace. By most performance measures, its beaten the Model X.
Yeah, i'd agree if we were talking about traditional cars, and this comes from someone who has wrenched on every bolt of their BMW.
As far as the DIY repair-ability of BMW's electric cars? About the same as every other electric car -- which is to say 'near-zero', unless we're talking about wiper blade replacement level stuff.
That right there is why current electric cars are far from green, if it ain't repairable, its trashcan ready. Trashcan ready products are the anti-thesis of environmentally sound products.
There is very little you can repair in an electric car, Its basically a battery, motor, electronics and software, and that's a plus, not a negative.
Why do you want repair something that shouldn't even exist at the first place?
Why should Tesla be allowed to brick every electric car that gets in a fender bender, or refuse to sell parts for cars once the vehicle is out of warranty? A lack of enforcement of the right to repair has driven repair costs on Tesla's vehicles sky high, causing their vehicles to have notably more expensive insurance premiums.
It's actually probably fine for most people, but I have a long commute and it wouldn't cut it for me sadly.
All of that said, my average commute is 10 miles so I'm purely electric about 95% of the time unless I forget to plugin. I got the REX because I thought the resell would be better in Texas.
The i3 has a "BEV" version that is much cheaper but more limited in its range; newer models are getting better tho.
How old was it when you bought it?
The asshat Nissan dealers wouldn’t budge on list price, so screw buying new. There is a guy locally who only sells used Leafs, as a bunch came off leases, and he flips them from auctions.
There are lots of Leafs and Model S around Kansas City. I’m sure we have the best charging network in the country.
This means that older Leafs have a greatly reduced range. Even my budget Ford Focus EV 2017 ($16k negotiated cap cost) has active thermal management for the battery pack so I might keep it off-lease.
If my compliance-car Ford POS has it, surely the top-selling EV in history should have it by it's 2nd version model.
Seems like if it gets cold enough it might be a problem.
I can't speak to the Bolt since I've never seen one.
It needs 4 (FOUR) days to charge on a standard outlet. If you happen to own a house, you can have the higher amp outlet installed for like 2k.
Otherwise, good luck finding a fast charging station for GM cars. They don't exist.
Having driven one for nearing 4 years, it's crazy fast.
In any event, it's very very fast for an urban commuter and I annoy plenty of people driving AMGs and Porsches in my clown car.
What is this nonsense?
The REX isn't even as fast as the standard i3, nevermind considering actual performance-oriented BMWs. Your statement is so generalized it includes the S1000RR and HP4 superbikes in its comparison, hogwash.
Presumably you mean you averaged 50mpg across a tank of gas which included some time spent > 120mph, which is a huge difference. Most riders can't really sustain > 120mph for an entire tank of gas, which is typically the granularity of measurement for casual mpg estimates made at fillup time.
My experience with liter bikes was that the fuel economy dropped to < 10mpg approaching vmax, which in combination with their small tank capacity poses a very real problem for those fleeing police.
There's no doubt in my mind that the i3 feels quick off the line being electric. But I don't think it qualifies as fast unless you're comparing it to a Nissan Leaf or other comparatively slow EVs.
I think it's a fine looking car.
For me, it was an experiment to try EV and I'm 100% sold. It also pushed me to go full solar on the home we're building. Rather make an environmental impact than a status statement.
I'm also interested in testing the Jaguar iPace. By most performance measures, its beaten the Model X.
I don't know why you write such obviously wrong things. They are blatantly false and misleading. Don't write stuff that is blatantly wrong, you poison the internet along with the collective human consciousness.
When I said performance, this is the video I watched that compelled me to get interested in what Jaguar was doing.
I'm pretty sure the Model 3 car charger is tax deductible as well.
The only real caveat is that you need to own a house and most likely a garage, though I know there are many EV owners who have outdoor consumer chargers.
I think it's a great car, and when you think about it, it's a much better fit for the majority of people's lifestyles. My commute is short enough so that I rarely need to use gas. One tank has lasted me 3 months so far and I haven't even used half the tank yet. However, it's great knowing that I can use it when needed, and thus I never get "range anxiety".
Also, since the electric range on my Volt is 40 miles, I didn't need to install any special electrical equipment. I just charge it on a normal 110 volt outlet (I set the charging to 12 amps which is fine on this outlet because it's the only thing on it) and it easily charges overnight.
I really do think the Volt merges the best of both worlds, and while I do think that all-electric is the future, for the time-being a plug-in hybrid is really a better option for most people IMO.
All of the plug-in hybrids run maintenance cycles every month or so to ensure that the motor turns over and some fuel goes through the injectors.
This is something that post-apocalypse fiction usually gets wrong. After a year you would probably not be able to grab any random abandoned car and drive it (even if the battery held charge)
(no affiliation, I just have old cars in storage)
I finally got a 40 watt charger installed in my garage and will sometimes fully recharge 3 times in a day.
Didn’t realize there was a Volt RC car — I’m sure the kids love playing with it!
Not necessarily. I own a Leaf and can make it to and from work (50 miles) with range to spare. I usually charge up at work, at cost, just to have that extra mileage for incidental need after work since I don't have L2 at home. It costs about $30 a month for me to do that which is less than 1/4 what I use to pay in gas.
I work in downtown Atlanta and many work places offer free charging stations. There are plenty of DC Fast Chargers around the metro area in convenient places like grocery stores where you spent 15+ minutes or more shopping.
With a higher range EV, like a Tesla, I think it would be pretty easy to get by without ever charging at home.
They have a 5k mile checkup between the 10k, but that's mostly to straighten your floor mats and make sure they're locked in place. (Toyota had an unintended acceleration lawsuit years ago, partly due to the floor mat blocking the brake pedal.)
A lot of people got completely trumped on the supposedly low-price of 35k$. This is where the magical Charisma of Musk played so well.
At the end of the day, it is closer to a 60k$ car than a 35k$ car (not even accounting for tax-money helping people to buy it cheaper). And if you really think about it, I cannot see how you can justify the model3 being worth 60k$ !
you got sold on a 35k$ car, and before you know it, you spend 60k$
Tesla is focusing on producing the higher priced versions first in order to have the cash flow to produce the standard model.
If Tesla wanted to start with producing the standard model first, they probably would have needed a very large cash infusion with unfavorable terms. There are definitely conflicting opinions on this but they have chosen a slightly more conservative route in order to not put the business at risk. The end result is we have to wait a bit longer for the standard model, and as such some people may feel obliged to cancel their order, or even be upsold to a more expensive model 3 or even an S/X.
At this point, the credit is reduced to $3,750 for 6 months and then to $1,875 for 6 months.
Using a lot of speculation and extrapolation, I would estimate that if someone placed an order now and wanted a standard model they would still probably be able to hit either the $3,750 or $1,875 credits.
And before you think it's a partisan thing, there is significant quiet Republican support for the credit.
If those numbers are painful, you really shouldn't be in the market formthis car in the first place. If a car costs more than ⅓ your annual income, you probably shouldn't be buying it.
I agree with everything you said but that statement. What in your opinion constitutes a 60k car?
I am always amazed by luxury cars whenever I ride in them, not by how nice they are, but by how they're just tacky "luxurious" material cladding slapped on a cheaper car. Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus, Acura, and Chrysler cars are just Ford, Chevy, Toyota, Honda, and Dodge cars covered in tacky leather and lick&stick wood paneling costing 30k more.
I drove the car home that day, and paid $3000 less than the theoretical base Model 3 would cost. The car gets 30-45 MPG consistently, so uses about twice the energy of a Model 3, and is limited to more expensive but more ubiquitous gasoline for fuel. But this is also okay as I'm in an apartment and have no charger at work.
I think some forget that the competition for the Model 3 is wider than just EVs. Lower fuel and maintenance costs are only worth so much.
I'm very interested in adding batteries to my Camry Hybrid in the long run, to increase its battery range, and hopefully add plug-in functionality. The biggest question is where to put the batteries. In the 2018 model, they added one underneath the rear seat.
As for technology, eh... maybe.
Safety features like airbags, backup cameras, ESC and anti-lock brakes are now mandatory on most smaller cars. Lane departure, dynamic cruise, blind spot detection, and huds are becoming standard features on most mid sized cars. Newer features like Super Cruise are optional just like Auto Pilot in the Model 3.
I don't think the entertainment or nav packages in any car are worth it. I would actually consider paying extra for them to remove it and instead put a shelf for my phone with a USB port.
I wouldn't buy one, but I've driven one.
The interior comforts are variable but I am always surprised by what passes as luxury in some makes. The BMW and Lexus cars I have driven are definitely on the nicer side but still not that impressive.
I can recall ever saying "wow this is impressive", the best has been "everyone should be doing this" but mostly it's just disappointment.
- Camaro. Base: $27k. Fully loaded: Above $70k. Of course, this is mainly because it goes from a 2.0L turbo 4 to a 6.2L turbo V8, but then again, a motor upgrade is also available as an "option" on the Model 3 so... Its the same model, same platform.
- Mercedes C300. Base: $40k. Fully Loaded: Above $70k. No engine or platform changes, exact same trim level, just options; exterior trim, premium leather, sound system, tech, etc.
- BMW 3-Series. Base: $35k. Fully Loaded: $65k. Both an engine and drivetrain upgrade included.
- Ford Mustang GT. Base: $35k. Fully Loaded: $55k. Not as drastic, but significant because again no engine change; Ford sells both a premium "trim", a complete interior upgrade, and a performance pack that modifies things like the diff ratio, bodywork, etc.
With the Model 3 you were led to believe a $35K car existed, but it never did.
A C300 4 banger will be not be confused with a AMG C63s before ordering.
And that's just what is on their website. Especially with BMW, you can go wild at the dealers with customization. You can turn a $40k car into a $100k car easily, just with factory options.
Also, I don't know if you've ever bought a car, but you just can't add all the options up on a car's build page and obtain the highest possible price. Many of those options are redundant and cancel each other out when you run down the line and click on them (packages). What's your $100K C300 build link?
You have to be very naive to think that even a $40K BASE model car options to a hundred grand "easily".
Remember, we're discussing the lie that the Model 3 is. That it's a $35K vehicle that will ship mid to late 2017.
Base is $99,990.
Premium edition is $110,490.
Track Edition is $128,490.
Finally, there's NISMO edition, $175,490. With all the options, nearly $183,000.
EDIT: Of course, a Nissan GT-R isn't even the same market as a Model 3, so I'm not sure you could really use it as an example.
How about each with $5k in upgrades? 10k?
Not accounting for the investors subsidizing it, either!
Is the Model 3 sold at a loss? I'm pretty sure the Model S was, but haven't heard anything definitive about the 3. Except for Elon Musk's comments, which I don't trust for a second.
My daily commute does not necessitate a car, nor does grocery shopping.
I have a boosted board for when I want to shorten my commute or explore the city a bit.
I sometimes use Lyft or rent a car but the cost is ridiculously smaller than what owning a car would cost me.
It is dependent on many factors, for example a job change might force to buy a car but right now it works extremely well for me.
EDIT: Also at the time I was earning 3 times more than now, making it an affordable option
edit: there are also a number of people who have street parking only. Look at any older neighborhood, it could range from Queen Anne hill in Seattle, to many parts of Boston. Houses may have neither garages nor alleyways.
In theory, you could also run a 100% rated breaker to pull more power, but the car would have to be able to support it as well.
Also, I can optimize for lifestyle changes more easily (choosing to have a garden or not, living with more people or less, moving to a more luxirious or a cheaper condo based on my earnings,...)
Not that I've seriously pursued this angle but napkin math tells me it would either break even or cost more to Uber.
What I will say is that I was in a car incident while I was taking a ride share (competitor of Uber) and for me it'd be worth it just to not have to deal with the aftermath of something like that.
I guess some some people are just fed up with waiting.
They also won’t admit it publically but all indications are that they are approaching 200,000 total sales in the U.S. which triggers the phase out of the federal tax rebates. It’s a little complicated but this may mean they build cars in Q2 but push some deliveries to early Q3 and also deliver more to Canada. Both of these will affect the tracker as well.
All in all we are likely to see bursts of extrapolated 5k/week in late Q2 and steady 5k/week in early Q3. Don’t be surprised if it’s 4k or even 6k though :).
Just send some to Europe already, please.
Fun Fact, first and second generation European Model S, dont have autoclosing charge ports, because the cargeport is bigger.
BTW, the initial US Model S didn't have an auto-closing port. That was only added after the "snake" video was published.
I'm sure it's a difficult problem and I'm rooting for them to figure it out but until they start to produce more cars, there's going to be people asking questions.
Obviously people have strong feelings about Tesla one way or the other, as it's obviously a pillar for the high-risk-high-reward ethos that gets people excited, but the future of Tesla is incredibly uncertain at the moment. Elon Musk is likely to be fired from his own company, they have to pay over a billion dollars in loans next year, their cash flow is a mess, and there is no telling when they will actually be GAAP profitable. I don't own TSLA stock nor do I have any short/put positions - but TSLA is almost as volatile as some cryptocurrencies.
With that in mind, the dialogue about Jobs / Musk feels oddly familiar with institutional investors having major issues and everyone else probably being too optimistic.
It's usefulness is when you want to raise capital by floating shares; but Elon will just do that a lower price by diluting ownership more.
For one car company to have such a large share of a car market monthly sales is pretty impressive. Plus that list includes hybrids.
If you only include full electric Tesla has 9220 / 13074 ~ 70% of the monthly sales.
Tesla is popular, for sure, but hard to produce at scale.
Video of a guy transforming an Aztek into a reasonably attractive sports car. Pretty impressive!
I am one of these people. I live in the Pacific Northwest, where it rains 7-8 months out of the year. A nice car will be totally ruined in a few weeks of rain around here. So everyone just drives ugly Honda Accords and AWD Subarus.
Related side note, a teacher back when I was in HS about 10 years ago told a story about how she saw Bill Gates driving a beat up mid 1990s Accura around Seattle after he was crowned the world's wealthiest individual.
What are you talking about? PNW rain isn’t going to hurt your car unless you leave the sunroof open.
Tons of people in Seattle drive late model luxury cars.
It's still badly broken in the looks department if you ask me.
But I don't think I'd have to try really hard to convince the wife to get a Bolt. It sure as hell is better looking than anything else we own. And despite owning way more TSLA than is healthy for our portfolio, I'm not terribly impressed by the looks of the 3. It's not ugly, but it doesn't stand out, either.
The front of the Tesla 3 keeps reminding me of this guy. (You see, when I look at the front of a car, there's supposed to be something there, but there's something less than what I expected.)
Someone should make a luggage rack for the Scion xB that looks like a handle from one of those old-school lunchboxes.
Nevertheless I do agree. I get really frustrated at how people are willing to accept cars that are so ugly.
The Bolt is better than others, but I personally think it's still a really ugly car. It's a complement to say that it's only as ugly as most regular cars are, but still it's ugly.
I'm impressed by the new leaf, it actually looks like a nice car. But the front of the first leaf looked ridiculous.
Tesla somehow figured out that people who want to buy electric cars, like cars that look nice too. It's the most obvious piece of advice, yet no car company could think of it.
Nice looking cars add something to the road scenery, bring pleasure to those who pass by them.
What I'm most impressed about is that Tesla have done what almost no luxury sports car brand has done and try and sell a mass market car and keep the nice looks of the brand. I'd liken the Model S/X to more like a Porsche/Aston Martin than a BMW. It's actually a bit simialr to the Porsche Boxter but that only makes up 10-20% of sales .
Personally the major attraction for me is that for $35k (when it comes in 2035...) you can get a car that has similar styling to a luxury sports car.
Making nice looking cars is worthwhile. The new Mini achieved it, the Fiat 500 managed it. Beauty is something to be cherished, and when you're going to make a million of the things and you only have to design it once, why not make it beautiful.
Can I just have a regular car that works on electricity please? Spare me the tacky from-the-future look please.
You quote the new Mini and 500 as nice looking. To me they are bland and unadventurous, and the Mini looks ridiculously bloated. I'd walk past them in a carpark to look at an Aztec.
Compare a 500 with a Panda on the same platform. The latter has much more internal volume and looks just as ... bland.
It's the same guy, Dante Giacosa, who designed the Multipla and the 500.
I too dislike bland cars, but almost any mass market car is going to be bland. By mass market I mean anything under $/€20k and designed to appeal to the mass market. At least though with bland cars they just fade into the background and you can ignore them.
It truly is. It's easily the fugliest car GM has ever produced, and this is from someone who owns and loves a Nissan Leaf. Whatever their next-gen purpose built EV may be, I hope to god it's not the same platform.
The Bolt just looks like some generic little hatchback that’s trying a little too hard to look cool.
To put this another way, they hit 70% of the goal mid-quarter, and the results of the latest shutdown are not yet known. In the previous quarter, they were at 40% of the goal mid-quarter.
I don't know why I bother to comment on this since people appear to really differ about what the graph means.
However I don't think the refunds are much of an issue, we must remember they took full price deposits on the new sports car for first release versions (250k) and took 50k deposits on all following versions. There are also all the 5k/10k deposits on the semi.
anecdotal insert : I have two friends with pending Jaguar i-Pace orders that hope to take delivery before October, one is ditching his X (which his wife calls it their "ex" as in they want it done) and the other just wants a Jag.
However, PG&E also allows you to get a $500 credit if you've bought an EV.
.. if you say so.
When Chevy Bolt came out, virtually every north american automotive magazine slammed its looks; and virtually every European immigrant friend of mine absolutely loved them.
Similarly, the Sedan nature of Tesla3 appeals to a lot of my 4th-generation-Canadian or -American colleagues, but screams impracticality and poor visibility to others.
Like the UI (the all-touchscreen paradigm is a HUGE deal breaker for me - I want buttons and levers I can operate without looking), the design is not universal :)
(edit: note that I'm carefully not saying anything about the i3... I have yet to meet a person even anecdotally who loves it for its looks - maybe it's just too ahead of its time ;-)
You're the first person I've heard say they don't like the look of the 2018 Leaf.
(Disclaimer: I own one.)
I’m in the US, and the charging networks outside of Tesla’s are fragmented and unreliable.
Search PlugShare for CHAdeMO chargers. There are a lot.
They’re often unmaintained and left broken for long periods of time.
They’re often installed in single units, leaving you vulnerable to being screwed by another user or someone blocking the spot.
They’re usually installed in cities rather than along highways. Many important corridors don’t have enough CHAdeMO coverage for a long trip.
The networks all have realtime status via their apps/websites, there's no guessing about whether a charger is working or in-use. The distribution is fking fantastic: most of them are right at the rest stops on the PA turnpike or I95 and other highways, so you don't even get off the highway to charge. Tesla puts theirs in strip malls, so you have to go through a toll, exit the highway, drive through a town, charge, drive back to the highway, go through the toll again to resume your trip.
I work from home with no commute, but I put over 1000 miles a month on my Leaf because it's a great road trip car: a smoother, quieter ride than most luxury cars, that drives itself most of the time with ProPilot, with a nearly 10x larger charging network than Tesla's. Nissan throws in two years of free charging with new Leafs, so for the most part these road trips cost nothing too.
50kW is still slow. I consider Supercharger speeds to be the bare minimum.
Not that there's any reason you can't continue on from any of those destinations to another further one; the entire eastern and western coasts are covered by several CHAdeMO chargers for every Supercharger.
As for Supercharger speeds, most of the time spent plugged in to one is spent at less than 50 kW, it's really not that different. Especially if we talk about the Model 3, where the standard range battery is going to be similar to the old Model S 60, which would spend less than 5 minutes above 50 kW starting from low SoC on a Supercharger before the charging rate would be no better than any CHAdeMO station.
I doubt my 15-20 minute charging stops are much different from yours with your Model S 85 most of the time, except that I have a lot more options for where to charge without an adapter around here, and they're a lot more conveniently located. Most of the population lives around cities along the coasts, and those cities and coasts have excellent CHAdeMO/CCS coverage. Bolts and Leafs are viable for single-car households for a heck of a lot of people, not just Teslas.
Out here on the west coast, cities are much more spread out.
Getting between major cities is at minimum 2 hours.
99.9% of my trips aren't that long, but a couple times a year I go well over 3 hours.
Heck I'm planning a 10 hour trip soon. I'll be meeting in the middle with some friends in LA who are driving up 8 hours.
If your charging stops are 15-20 minutes then they’re similar to mine... except mine take me twice as far and thus happen half as often.
If you don’t want to consider trips over 3 hours then the whole issue of fast charging disappears for long range EVs. You can do those trips without charging in the middle at all. This discussion is completely pointless unless we look at longer trips.
The network is large, yes. But so many of the locations you see are single or dual units. You can’t count on such a facility when traveling, because it might be in use. I’d hesitate to count on any station with 4 or fewer stalls. I guess if the density is good enough you could hunt around for a free one, but that sounds awful.
In most urban Supercharger stations, the stalls are almost always taken up by taxi companies. On heavily trafficked highways/freeways like the Interstate 5, most of the stalls are taken up by drivers for hours-long intervals. Same problem, but far worse--because Supercharger stations are more spread out than their non-network/non-Tesla counterparts.
Back then, it felt like the leaf was the present, and Tesla was like stepping into a future of dreams. It was simply no comparison.
But dreams aside, I can see how the economics might push people one way.
For families with children, an electric car plus a minivan is a combination that's pretty hard to beat. You get an efficient electric car for commuting, and a comfortable large car for weekend trips, hauling the kids around, and buying a bunch of crap at Costco and Home Depot.
And ordering (and waiting months for) a car is the norm in Europe. I actually think the buy-something-off-the-lot culture is why we get so few options on cars in the US; just a bunch of shades of dull with dull options bundles.
There's a bit of legal stuff behind it too; my understanding is that you CANNOT be legally held to buy a car that you haven't seen (which, of course, seems like an obviously good thing). But a side effect is that if you order your Porsche in pink with purple polka dots and no stereo, then decide you don't want it when it arrives, the dealer may end up with a car that is not so easy to sell.
I think it's more likely that a lot of people realised that they aren't getting a $35.000 car any time soon, and bought something in their price range instead.
I reserved a Model 3, but I'm becoming sceptical that I'll ever be able to afford it. Right now they are selling it for $50.000, and it doesn't look like it's moving into my price range any time soon.
BTW, the rollout of lower-priced 3's is being done exactly the same as model S and model X: while they're production constrained, Tesla ships the higher-priced models only. The smaller battery Model S shipped a year after the first S rolled off the line. Between that and not being an existing owner or employee, I'm not sure why you thought you'd get the lowest price version so soon?
I didn't say that, and I don't have an opinion on what Tesla should have done 6 years ago. There's a pattern in this little comment chain of you criticizing people for beliefs they never expressed, or for saying something they never said. You're having conversations with yourself under the guise of replying to others. It's a little strange.
I know, because I'm one of them.
I figured a few things: The Fed/State incentives might be gone by the time I got my Model 3, I didn't plan to buy a base model, I figured I'd add a bunch of options and figured I'd spend more like $55K than $38K, I didn't figure all the options would be available right at the start, and I drove a Model S and loved it.
I just canceled the Model 3 reservation a couple months ago, because I figured I'd hold onto the reservation to see what was happening when they finally became available. Maybe I'd need one for my wife or maybe I'd have a friend or family member who would use the reservation, or maybe people would be crazy about it and they'd be selling for enough that it was worth buying and immediately reselling... None of those came to be though.