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Well, then women will be forced to pay more than their fair share for car insurance, putting them at even more of a disadvantage. Right?



And this observation is downvoted because? It's just stating obviously true facts as far as I can tell.

edit And then I get downvoted for sticking my neck out. Let me break the parent post down.

It asserts that charging genders equally will shift more burden to women. This is clearly true because premiums are higher for men because we have more accidents (so much for all the female driver jokes).

It also asserts women were a previously disadvantaged class. Also clearly true.

So to the downvoters out there, you might have found something disagreeable about the parent post, but you're wrong and he's right.


I see two things wrong in the post:

> fair share

Male drivers and female drivers don't have a "fair share" of insurance costs. No one should be obligated to pay for the actions of others simply because they're the same sex.

Driving risk should be evaluated on an individual basis based on those individuals' behavior.

> putting them at even more of a disadvantage

Young women are no longer at a disadvantage. Young women graduate college more often and earn more than young men.

I focus on young women and young men in this case because those are the people most affected by gender discrimination in auto insurance pricing, because they lack individual driving records on which to base insurance rates.


I've heard there's an app for that in the US, you drive with it for a week or two and then they adjust your premiums according to how you drive. That would be a more fair system. We're not discussing that though, we're discussing the current system vs one where insurance companies can't discriminate on the basis of gender - clearly that advantages men unfairly and disadvantages women unfairly. Yeah the system is still unfair the way it is, but this change would make it more so.

Women graduate from college more often, but college is not what it once was - I'm a college dropout and I'm sure I earn more than most graduates (plus I don't have the debt.) Women still earn less than men. Your claim that they earn more is just false.



That's interesting, although as those sources indicate, the pay gap increases with age so that by the time women hit their mid thirties they're substantially behind men in compensation (for the same work.) It's an improvement to be sure, but I wouldn't go so far as to call the problem solved and say that women aren't still a disadvantaged class, when it comes to compensation.


Look at my other reply to the parent post for my explanation as to why I disagree.


I suspect few HN users could provide sound logic to support their anonymous downvotes. Downvotes are good — at least it means there’s a chance someone eventually modulates their current viewpoint.


Don’t worry about downvotes; oppression by the status quo for random and varying reasons is a discriminatory mechanism to make our words invisible. Keep commenting!


This is a common mistake. Reducing inequality is not morally equivalent to penalizing the person who was previously in a superior position.


The issue here is the phrase "fair share" - why is it a fair share? Because women get into fewer accidents? Cool, what if we get out of the statistical data that black people have more accidents(this is just an example, I don't know if they really do)? Should it be justified to charge them more?

But maybe if you look beneath the surface you will find out that minorities are more likely to drive older, less safe cars, which leads to them having more accidents - they don't have more accidents because they are black, they have more accidents because of other factors.

The same with men and women - I think it's fair to say that men drive more powerful, larger cars(on average) than women do. So....they get into more accidents because the cars they drive are objectively more difficult to drive. Which obviously means that you should calculate your premium based on the type of vehicle being insured, not on the gender of the driver - and, by extension, insurance for a man and a woman, on the same vehicle, should be identical. Penalizing a man in this situation because men as a group get into more accidents is absolutely unfair.


> I think it's fair to say that men drive more powerful, larger cars(on average) than women do

I know you're sorta spitballing here, but at least in my experience that's a bit backwards. Around here, I'd guess women drive SUVs more than men do. Growing up, fathers would buy their daughters SUVs because they were safer. Now, husbands have their wives drive the family SUV for the same reason. Plus, moms and minivans, etc. That might just be a thing in the area I grew up, though. It's probably different in downtown Seattle.

> So....they get into more accidents because the cars they drive are objectively more difficult to drive.

I'd bet the testosterone doesn't help much, either :-)


Maybe it's different in US, but over here in UK with everyone I know the ratio I see is a man with an SUV/large powerful sedan, woman with a small city car to get to work and back. Moms in minivans isn't as much of a stereotype because kids just walk to school or take the bus/metro. I suspect it's more common in rural areas but in my experience taking kids to school by car is still not the primary way of getting to school. But obviously that's just my experience, my perspective.

I'd love to see actual data on this , especially power and size of cars grouped by gender.

>>I'd bet the testosterone doesn't help much, either :-)

Women have their own behaviour-affecting hormones too, you know.


Moms in minivans isn't as much of a stereotype because kids just walk to school or take the bus/metro

Where in the UK are you? I lived several years in England as a teenager and went to a 'nice' school in the suburbs of Surrey and almost everybody drove their kids to school.


over here in UK with everyone I know the ratio I see is a man with an SUV/large powerful sedan, woman with a small city car to get to work and back. Moms in minivans isn't as much of a stereotype

Also in the UK and can report that mothers driving “Chelsea tractors” is totally a thing.


Sure, but most mothers in the UK are not driving Range Rovers :-) It's very much a rich people thing. Working-class mothers don't drive massive SUVs in general, even if they drop off their kids at school - tiny city cars seem far more common than tanks.


Heh. It's always interesting seeing the differences between countries.

> Women have their own behaviour-affecting hormones too, you know.

Of course. I was making a half-joke.


> I'd bet the testosterone doesn't help much, either :-)

Whoa there. Someone might infer from this that you believe men might generally make decisions / respond to situations differently than women with biological reasons being a contributing factor. That's a dangerous line of thought.


I think it's fair to say that men drive more powerful, larger cars(on average) than women do. So....they get into more accidents because the cars they drive are objectively more difficult to drive. [...] Penalizing a man in this situation because men as a group get into more accidents is absolutely unfair.

Oh, come on, do you really think insurance companies don't break out all the different factors? They're in a cutthroat business where every tiny margin they make over their competitors is a big advantage. But if they guess wrong, they'll cut premiums too aggressively and lose money on accident claims.

Car size and gender are both factors. It's possible they're partly correlated, but actuaries can still incorporate both factors into their models.

Charging higher premiums for men is fair if you only care about accident rates. If you feel it's a form of discrimination and want to level the playing field, that has to be done via government regulation.


>The same with men and women - I think it's fair to say that men drive more powerful, larger cars(on average) than women do. So....they get into more accidents because the cars they drive are objectively more difficult to drive. Which obviously means that you should calculate your premium based on the type of vehicle being insured, not on the gender of the driver - and, by extension, insurance for a man and a woman, on the same vehicle, should be identical. Penalizing a man in this situation because men as a group get into more accidents is absolutely unfair.

The simplest "AI" (linear regression) will already factor this out if it has the data about the car driven and gender. Any remaining gender imbalance is attributable either to another factor or it is actually gender related (e.g. increased road rage, high speed driving and risky following behavior due to testosterone might be a stronger accident predictor than too careful driving (not speed matching fast enough when merging on the highway), too slow driving or worse spatial reasoning which are usually correlated with higher estrogen levels.)

In general the AI will just become a better predictor the more data it has available and the more detailed the data is. But an effeminate man or a manly woman might behave more than the opposite gender and thus be treated wrongly. We could probably solve this by tacking on a recent endocrinological report to every application, but this gets quite privacy invasive at some point.

In general if you get insurance you want to be part of a larger risk group to mitigate your effects. Having no insurance just means you have the most fair risk group, which is just yourself.


> The issue here is the phrase "fair share" - why is it a fair share? Because women get into fewer accidents? Cool, what if we get out of the statistical data that black people have more accidents(this is just an example, I don't know if they really do)?

Because actuarial tables say so. Insurance companies that decided it did not matter folded or changed their opinion after the losses


So every insurance company in the EU collapsed after charging people more depending on gender was banned EU-wide?


They leveled the prices at the higher rates.




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