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Apple's had a shockingly bad week of software problems (theverge.com)
209 points by alwillis on Dec 2, 2017 | hide | past | favorite | 197 comments



I'll admit, I used to be the first to update to their latest betas, now I'm terrified to even install the public releases.

They have to do better than this. Having a Twitter user report one of the biggest bugs this decade? That's really weak. Releasing an update that undoes that? Pure amateur hour by the guys we really trust with privacy. Separately, lately they've treated me ridiculously bad (and it's _never_ been like this) at the Apple Store on a failed logic board for my 7 Plus to no fault of my own (saying I was 41 days out of warranty, sorry), so I called Apple Care and they promptly took care of it for me, but should I really have had to jump through all those hoops? Really soured me.

I'm also on 3-month long thread with an iTunes Adviser (hi Grant) trying to convert some damn gift cards from iTunes to Apple Store. The easiest request ever. Now he's just no longer picking up his phone, voicemail, or responding to emails. Can't tell you the frustration involved in this (my dad had accidentally selected Apple iTunes instead of Apple Store when redeeming his Wells Fargo rewards)

Having said all that, I'm still support these guys - why, I don't know anymore. That'll be changing soon, for sure.


I've been feeling this as well and trying to put my finger on exactly whats going on. Despite all of their massive cash reserves, they seem to be developing a fundamental stinginess in just about everything customer facing.

Its really odd that a company riding so very high on cash would spend so much brand reputation to save a few pennies here and there. It was their generosity taking care of customers that helped their brand become so valuable in the first place.


when was their last home run? their cash is their only real asset


Well they are still making crazy, paying less tax than the average American and stashing truck loads of cash offshore.

Only way to truly vote is with your wallet. But Android is no less evil. Google will sell your data like a slave master to the highest bidder.


I'll air my recent horror story: my Mac Mini Server 6,2 (2012) has two SSDs I had welded together as a RAID-0 array. I updated from 10.12 Sierra to 10.13 High Sierra without a hitch. On 20 November I for reasons I know bitterly regret I decided to wipe my system and reload from backups... an exercise that usually takes six hours, max. I've run into issue after issue (High Sierra formatting the RAID array as APFS by default and then announcing that is not a bootable configuration, terrible RAID drivers littering my installer log with write errors and thus refusing to restore Time Machine backups onto the array once I reformatted it as JHFS+, and latterly some obscure kernel cache error that precludes booting)... long story short, twelve days after the fatal decision, my system is still not bootable.

And Apple Support is non-existent. Documentation about APFS and RAID is thin on the ground. Phone support told me in no uncertain terms that my Mini's number was not a Server so I could not access Enterprise Support, and of course the consumer level folks do not know anything about RAID (or even multi-drive systems). It's been a total shitstorm.

Never have I been so proximate to just dumping them and telling them to piss off, but I also know I won't, because I am too deeply invested in their integrated ecosystem (macOS, Mac Pro, MacBook, iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple Music...)... except I am starting to think it might make sense to tell them to piss off integrally and voting with my feet.


Maybe wait until more documentation comes out? I had the same problem except when I updated to High Sierra, not after. I had this problem on my hard drive that "corrupted" it in a way neither Disk Utility nor Terminal accessed from the masOS recovery could fix. And before you ask, this was network recovery, so the recovery image I was using was technically not on my hard drive-- meaning I could wipe the entire drive and reinstall macOS if I had to. Found out that I'd have to wipe it, update, and restore from my backup. Easy-ish, right? No. Once I updated, I was presented with a debacle as Apple just dropped AFP support in High Sierra. Problem is, I have been using a NAS to store my Time Machine backups. THE NAS CONNECTED TO MY COMPUTER USING AFP. I had to downgrade back to Sierra, restore from the network backup, back up my system to an external hard drive, wipe the Mac's SSD, update, and restore from the backup. Only took a few weeks to get all that done :) And nope, Apple support did NOT help with this. I read an article on HN a while ago about how Apple painlessly updated an entire Mac's filesystem without any hitches, and seemed to implement HFS+ backwards compatibility better than HFS itself. Whether that's true or not, High Sierra is by no means a painless update. And don't even mention the new root bug.


I can’t “just wait” because this machine (notwithstanding it being a Server) is my main workstation for doing financial modelling on.

You’ve just solved a mystery for me: at one point I was struggling (and failing) to get Time Machine to restore from my Synology NAS. Now you’ve explained why!


I am about to switch away from my Mac Mini Server:

It gets way to hot, more and more features are no longer available through Server.app, and Spotlight on MacOS Server has never been great (at least not better than on an up-to-date Synology NAS these days). Each update was a reason for bad sleep …

Since all the software we were using as local installations moved to SaaS, only file storage and Resilio Sync are left – band oth can be done with a NAS or cloud services like Google Team Drive / Google Drive File Stream. The latter has great reliability and many useful compliance features.


Install Ubuntu or Debian on it. Find linux alternatives to the solutions you use now.


For various options pertaining to the software that runs on it, that’s not an option... it’s a Mac Mini Server but it’s actually my main workstation.

I do have Linux and DragonFlyBSD machines as ’real’ servers, the former being a Mathematica grid for my numerical heavy lifting.


Install 10.12, then update to 10.13, then restore your backup. And now we're at it, why don't you use Debian or Ubuntu as server?


Despite being a Server, this is actually my main workstation. It just bought a server unit because I needed a RAID subsystem and opening up a mac to add/replace drives would invalidate the warranty (which has long since expired anyway, but wasn’t an enticing prospect when it was brand new).

As for Ubuntu or another Linux distro, I do use Linux and DragonFlyBSD on my servers and to host my Mathematica grid.


I was like you a number of years ago (iPhone, Macbook, iMac, etc) but decided it was time to switch rides. Google has a massive intensive to making switching from iOS to Android as easy as possible. But I do admit, it took some time to get used to Windows coming from a Mac, and bootcamp was not great for me on my macbook pro.


For someone who values their privacy at least a little bit, Google and Windows are no options.

Outside Pixel, updates on Android are an embarrassing shit show. I did a three year detour to Android, but never again. Update after update things were broken until and you had to wait 6 months to get an update that was supposedly fixing things.

As someone who considers privacy important, Linux and BSD are the only credible alternatives to the Mac. Unfortunately, a lot of software that I use nearly daily is missing, because the Linux ecosystem does not have a strong ISV ecosystem (Little Snitch, OmniGraffle, Things, DeckSet, LaunchBar, Alfred, Arq, 1Password, Tweetbot, Affinity Designer/Photos, etc.) and does not support some hardware well (Sonos, etc.).


the software you list shows a disinterest in considering alternatives. if you’re already considering Linux or BSD, it behooves you to also consider open source alternatives to your applications, especially when at least some of the responsible companies are currently engaged in predatory business practices (1Password).

BitWarden is a fantastic FLOSS alternative to 1Password, Emacs’ org-mode for Things is perhaps the finest of its kind and easy to get started with with a distro like Spacemacs, a plethora of Alfred alternatives, Marp for DeckSet, i could go on but at this point i just want to throw up my arms and shake you.

i’ve switched dozens who were sick of proprietary lock-in. it doesn’t sound like you’re sick enough.


I have a Linux desktop machine at home besides a Mac and regularly try open source alternatives. I also use org mode besides Things, and have a custom Emacs configuration with evil, ivy, magic, and whatnot.

However, the open source alternatives for the software I mentioned (and other software) are simply not good enough for me. The additional 'problem' is that open source software that I use, such as Emacs, Latex, compilers, etc. work fine on macOS.

(I used Linux and BSD full-time on the desktop from 1994-2008.)


You can't judge all Android phones the same. One Plus has pushed Android 8 a few weeks ago and their beta channel is on the November security patch.

Stop buying Samsung.


True. And the cross-macOS/iOS app ecology is just too compelling. I’m captive.


What data do you think windows sends to microsoft that macOS doesn’t send to apple? Why do you think windows has worse privacy than macOS?


I’ve been using “Apple” back since the NeXTStep/OpenStep days. My customised software is deeply tied to the platform.

A few years ago I grew so sick and tired of iOS’ arbitrary restrictions compared to Android that I skipped from the iPhone4S to the iPhone6+ with a Google Nexus 5 device, but it was a really hellish experience because I never managed to get things to sync right.


RE: converting iTunes gift cards to Apple store cards.

I’ve never heard of anyone being able to do this, iTunes gift cards can very easily be obtained for +20% off of face value and the same cannot be said for Apple store cards.


Dave, I'm losing my mind. $600 worth of iTunes Music gift cards, and my dad doesn't have an iTunes account.

It was the most honest mistake ever, but we're paying the price for it. Sent them all the documentation involved (including everything from WF). It's just converting money from one card to another, they _can_ do it, but they don't want to.


How isn't this a WF issue instead of an Apple issue? If your father chose an iRobot instead would you expect iRobot to transfer it to Apple Store credit?

As Dave said, iTunes cards are seldom sold at face value, often coming at up to 30% off. Apple Store credit is worth face value explicitly. This isn't Apple's problem. Sell the cards privately (you will take a loss) and be more careful next time.


How is this a WF issue? I mean I’m no Wells Fargo supporter. They are the scummiest of banks, but in this case the money is probably sitting with Apple iTunes since it’s converted to an iTunes gift card. As a result it’s Apple that likely has control over it.

Also, a more relevant analogy would be if you accidentally chose a Roomba using your WF credit, it was delivered home, and then realized you actually wanted a Braava. You’d hope that iRobot would be ok with you returning the Roomba and then sending you an equivalently proved Braava instead. If they didn’t that would be even more excusable because it’s a physical product with shipping costs, etc. The scenario mentioned is a digital transfer of funds which should be significantly easier.


If you're at a grocery store and buy plantains by accident, do you go to the plantain farmer and ask for bananas? No, you have the grocery store refund the plantains, and then buy bananas. Definitely a Wells Fargo issue.


Because the unit value is entirely different? Apple Store Credit and iTunes Credit is entirely different thing.

Your Analogy is actually correct, exchanging items that is equivalent "value" or higher priced.


> How isn't this a WF issue instead of an Apple issue?

I'm imagining this as of those jeff@amazon.com emails. I do not imagine it would end up as "we have the customer's money, they made an honest mistake, so fuck the customer."


You nailed it. I couldn't make sense of it either. I wanted to forward the email thread to tcook@apple.com and be like Tim?? What's going on here man?

Apple is all about the customer (or was at least, shareholders can get pretty pissy these days), and I was trying to spend more(!!) at the Apple Store.

Either way I'm glad I shared my story, thanks HN.


_arvin, you absolutely should send that email to Tim Cook. This level of customer experience is just unacceptable.


I think I will, thanks for the encouragement. It's so unbelievably minor given everything going on in the world, but there was a lot of time invested into phone calls, emails, etc. that could have been easily avoided.

Quick screenshot of our conversation: https://i.imgur.com/bhw4K1k.png

It got to a point where I didn't want to email anymore in worries of being accused of harassing the guy. To this day, no reply or call back.


You spend all that time on Apple but simply took a pass to WF because clearly it is WF and your problem but you thought Apple is nice so you should hunt them down?


ksec, I saw your other commment as well. I want you to know I have no vendetta against Apple, just a long-time loyal customer that's been treated poorly lately on multiple fronts, that's all.

To be clear, I didn't take a pass at WF, they were so unbelievably helpful that I was like, wait--- why don't I just go straight to the source? And that's how I landed at Apple to help resolve this issue.

I'm surprised you think Apple can't (or should, in your words) this honest mistake. Mistakes happen, what can I say. I'm taking the fall for this even though it was my dad, but it just as well could have been your girlfriend, your brother, your mother. Doesn't matter, you'd want everyone to have the same level of customer support.


How is WF not the source? That's where the transaction happened. That's where you go to untransact.


You might want to remove the link. The image isn't censored when viewing the full image - only the thumbnail is.


Hmm, the image should be censored. I removed both of our names and my thumbnail since he didn't have one.

I think imgur just shows it funny (one with the black-out, one with the whitespace)


Yes, definitely agree.

WF was where I went to first and they were absolutely unwilling to help - but I expected that.

Apple's response was unexpected and I think that's why it soured me. I used to always tell people, just go to Apple they'll take care of it for you.

Privately selling was my last resort like you said, and I already talked to my dad that next time, let's just get the cash and use that anywhere, instead of locking it into Apple (he was about to buy an iPad Pro so he figured why not, bless his heart)

He loves that iPad Pro lol.


I'd say it is Apple's problem to have a disappointed customer. Of course they can send him away. Is it worth that though?


I'd say it is Apple's problem to have a disappointed customer.

You universally can't transfer iTunes cards to Apple Store cards. I just got Apple Store gift cards with some Apple purchases -- are you saying that I just need to act disappointed enough to get it? That I need to be as demanding and foot stomping of a customer, then it makes sense?

There is a point where the customer is wrong. I'll take the downvotes, but Apple says no to countless people every year who make irrational demands. They still manage to exist.


respectfully, that's not nearly the same scenario as mine.

This was an honest mistake of selecting Apple iTunes instead of Apple Store. Sure, the mistake was certainly on our end, but Apple has always taken care of these easy requests.

Why? Because these things happen! And when you understand where the customer is coming from, and they have proven and shown all the documentation requested, why not service the request? Especially when you're the world's most valuable company, it makes no reason not to because customer loyalty is how you got there.


And also because it costs them nothing and they have nothing to lose.

This really should be a no brainer for Apple, even if they do t allow it.


> I'm also on 3-month long thread with an iTunes Adviser

In fact probably they already lost much more in support.


Easy for you to say. But money isnt just some "well you lost it, learn the rules!!" kind of clown show. Your attitude is entirely unempathetic. And its also misinformed. Companies WANT to please customers and don't mind doing menial support to make the customer feel better. OP is asking for a simple assist - the last thing good businesses wish is for a customer to feel at odds with the business, or likr they were taken advantage of due to confusion. Have you much experience using the goodwill of companies?? Or are you always blaming yourself and taking the punishment of monetary loss?


> Or are you always blaming yourself

This is called personal responsibility and is a good thing. Accept fault and move on. It's possible to try and ask for help for honest mistakes but you definitely don't blame them for it.


No one alluded to not taking responsibility. But mistakes happen. Some things are confusing. OP isn't blaming Apple. But he would like some help reversing a mistake that anyone could have made due to the confusion that having separate itunes and apple gift cards causes.


Apple Store, and with Genius Bar constantly running out of slot and shot on staff, they decide that the store is no longer a store but a communities meet up place......

Having said that. I dont think Apple should and could convert those Gift Card. iTunes Gift Cards have promotion and discount. I think that is entirely Wells Fargo's problem.


10.0, 10.1, 10.2 were all terrible. 10.3 on got better, but you continually have had these horrible pre x.x.3 releases that have been show stoppers.

I won't even touch Mac OS until it's past the 3rd revision. Reminds me of old Windows where you waited for SP3.


Somewhere between ios9 and 10.3 on an iphone6 things got noticably slower e.g. pauses lasting multiple seconds while doing things like scrolling. I suspected the filesystem update, but could be anything.

Apple are forward looking in development - meaning they don't seem to be doing much regression testing for things like performance with last years model - or if they are, they don't care.

I'm not letting ios11 anywhere near my phone based on the usability impact I've seen on others, which leaves me open to old security vulnerabilities. Microsoft security patch old operating system versions - its kinda ironic how the 2 companies have switched places.


10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 never shipped with these kind of issues: http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Sep-23... (from the Ars High Sierra review)

That's the kind of thing Apple made fun of Windows Vista for in the Get a Mac ads.


Yea because no one was using them. Everyone was still on 9.2.

OS X sucked horribly until 10.2 and wasn't decent IMO until 10.3.


I ditched them for Windows 10 on a Dell XPS.

Android on a Pixel XL 2.

If Apple doesn't care to maintain any quality standards, then it's not worth paying the price premium. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At least Microsoft is listening to their users!


> That'll be changing soon, for sure.

Changing, to who?

I am genuinely asking because I really don't see any alternatives, which I agree is unfortunate and sad, but, I just don't see them right now.


>Having a Twitter user report one of the biggest bugs this decade?

????


You don't find that true? Anyone with physical (or remote) access can type in root, with no password, and have full control?

????


I think you have a very limited understanding of the state of software security in general if you think that is true.

Bugs far worse than this are discovered on a weekly basis. This one is just easy to exploit so it’s been hyped up by people who would normally ignore slightly more technical descriptions of much worse vulnerabilities.


How so? If you own a macOS device and you weren't freaking out about the root bug, or all the other blunders that have been happening recently, then I think it's you that has the limited understanding.


Bugs like this are discovered regularly. If you are “freaking out” about this it is solely because you have not been paying attention before.

Describing this as “one of the biggest bugs of the decade” is insane when you see stuff like the Eternal* exploits released by TSB.


Really? Bugs that allow anyone with physical access to log into any Mac without any preparation or specialist knowledge are discovered regularly?

How bad this is depends entirely on your circumstances. If your Mac is only accessible to people you fully trust then good for you. Otherwise this bug is potentially far worse than anything that could be launched over a network by anonymous attackers.


>Bugs that allow anyone with physical access to log into any Mac without any preparation

Not the case here. This bug only¹ allows you to log into an unencrypted Mac, which you should of course never leave unattended.

>How bad this is depends entirely on your circumstances. If your Mac is only accessible to people you fully trust then good for you. Otherwise this bug is potentially far worse than anything that could be launched over a network by anonymous attackers.

Are you equally worried about the DMA attacks which affect most computers and are not widely considered vulnerabilities?

It feels to me that you're creating a rather unrealistic threat model here.

>If your Mac is only accessible to people you fully trust then good for you.

If this isn't the case then why does the device contain data which makes a compromise by an adversary with physical access problematic?

>Otherwise this bug is potentially far worse than anything that could be launched over a network by anonymous attackers.

Only in an absurd scenario where you store sensitive plaintext data on a publicly accessible machine and expect it to remain secure. At this point no software is going to save you.

¹ Worth noting here that it also affects some Remote Desktop configurations which is the only actually somewhat serious part of this bug.


>It feels to me that you're creating a rather unrealistic threat model here.

I'm thinking of Macs placed on desks in living rooms, home offices and small companies around the world, accessible to spouses, flatmates, parents, coworkers, cleaners, etc.

99% of these "adversaries" will never have heard of various other ways of breaking into a computer and they might never do anything that actually feels like breaking in.

But if all that stands between you and reading all of your spouse's emails is entering "root" into the username box, that may be too much of a temptation.


Is it normal for people to be scared of their spouse reading their emails? That blows my mind.


The estimates of how many people have cheated on their spouses at some point vary betwen 15% and 70%. Many couples are going through conflicts, broken relationships and divorce.

So yes I'm afraid these things are a normal, if undesirable, part of life. And then there are all the other groups I mentioned (flatmates, coworkers, parents, cleaners).

Among the millions of Mac users, there will be many who don't want those around them to sift through their emails, browser history, bank account statements, etc.


I think it is valid to take exploitability into the equation.


And the impact remains minuscule outside of the remote desktop scenario.

The attacker must already have access to exploit this, and one would have to be utterly clueless to expect that an attacker wouldn't be able to get root some other way.


I’ve been treated like shit at the Apple Store for years and years. I’ve been followed by employees relentlessly around the store even days after spending $3k+, ruthlessly ignored while even being helped (once had to be wait 25 minutes for one dollar in change because middle aged white man was more important than finishing my transaction, Apple employee had my dollar in their hand), I had my graphics issues ignored in my previous MacBook Pro which deeply affected its use. Eventually I sold the laptop (3+ years later) only have Apple within weeks say it was an issue and replace them with newer MacBook pros. My laptop never worked and all I got told was to “reinstall OS X.”

Apple is on track to become the shittiest most alienating company on the planet. For a company I loved, I don’t think I could hate them more and be more consistently disappointed.

I wish I didn’t dislike android because I’d leave this hot pile of apple shit behind at this point. Their focus isn’t on creating content it’s on consuming it. They’ve lost track of the creatives and innovators.


>Let’s recap the week of Apple software problems:

- macOS High Sierra critical flaw with root admin access

- macOS High Sierra update released, but breaks file sharing

- iOS 11 crashing on some iPhones due to a date bug

- macOS High Sierra fix not installing correctly on some systems

-iOS 11.2 released early to fix iPhone crash bug

Yeah I would say that is a pretty bad week


Don’t forget console being spammed with hundreds of “Month 13” messages a second!


Thanks for the heads up. I wonder what will happen first, Apple releases a fix or the logs fill up my disk?


That's what that was! I was up late last night trying to debug my app because of this.


Yup something to do with mdworker IIRC.


The transition to APFS also went flawlessly, above and beyond anyone's expectations.


Really? That transition introduced “store encryption password in plaintext, as password hint” - http://mashable.com/2017/10/06/high-sierra-password-fix-appl...



Apparently, apple won't implement apfs for people on spinning rust so I can't get it on an iMac which made upgrading to high sierra easier. How did it go for people on macbooks?


Nor for RAID drives, whatever the substrate... except that by virtue of my participation in the beta programme, my Mac's RAID-0 array was converted before they decided to change track, and now after I wiped my system to restart anew I have literally no way of getting my system back to the initial state it was in.


You can convert those disks, they don’t do it automatically though. Diskutility has a convert option.


That's a dumb idea, the file system is designed for flash memory, not spinning disks.


flawlessly - for iOS users only.


They also released 10.13.1, which undid the patch for the root login issue.


That's basically this point

> - macOS High Sierra fix not installing correctly on some system

But 10.13.1 has been out for a while, the root issue only resurfaces if you upgrade from 10.13 -> 10.13.1 after the patch is automatically installed.


Oops, my bad then, I misinterpreted the news yesterday about that. Do they at least prompt you to reapply the patch after updating?


10.13.1 was released more than a month ago.


I honestly am about ready to go back to a 2009-era MacBook Pro or Mac Pro tower, shove 10.9 on it and tell my clients that I've quit iOS as a platform. It's beyond not worth it at this point. I refuse to watch my computers and phones get shittier and shittier, and with the phones, a downgrade isn't even possible.

Apple, you have gone from one of my favourite companies in the world, to one of my most hated. I will never buy a new, non-upgradable, RAM-soldered-to-the-board, overpriced, underpowered, piece of shit computer from you again. And you can take my word on that.


TLDR; Three problems have stemmed from the same bug. One patch had errors and required more fixing for a subset of users. The complaint seems to be that Apple moved too fast to fix this bug.

I dunno... You really need to fix something like this quickly and you might not have time for a really good QA round; so you rush it. Could they do better, sure.


You really need to ship an operating system that doesn't grant root access with an empty password.

You really need to ship an operating system that doesn't get into a crash reboot cycle at the turn of a new month.


The entire Apple shtick and justification for their prices and so on is (used to be?) that they control the hardware and the software so it's supposedly a perfect match, it works well, installs and updates easily, it's tested well, it's polished, etc.

Meanwhile, just this year we had these bugs here and before that we had the "password got stored in hint field" one with new FS[0], some other one with keychain stealing[0], the Unicode problem with the new FS, the iPhone calculator bug with intentionally laggy animated + button ignoring input.

I'd expect them to walk on (colibre) egg shells for a few weeks now, some of these bugs are absolutely embarrassing (compared to bugs like Debian's OpenSSL RNG bug for example, which is a more nuanced one that requires real analysis and thought to find and understand properly as opposed to "my password is just shown" that anyone can understand).

I'm pretty negative towards Apple for reasons but if someone told me a year ago they'd have so many bugs in such a short time period I'd say they're being disingenuous since Apple has many real downsides (that it's users mind not care about but I happen to) but top quality.

[0] - http://mashable.com/2017/10/06/high-sierra-password-fix-appl...


This is not a professional mentality. Releasing later is better than introducing the bug again, never mind a new one.


A professional mentality is to do a risk analysis based on what you know and based on reasonable estimates of what you don't know.

Here's how I'd model it. The main decision point on Apple's part is how long to QA the fix before pushing the release out. As soon as the build finishes? 3 hours of testing? 1 day? 3 days? 2 weeks? The longer you test, the lower the probability of introducing a regression or having an incomplete fix, but that probability never drops to zero.

You could come up with an "expected after-patch defect severity over time" graph that goes down (due to more QA) in a way similar to exponential decay, and compare with that with the known before-patch severity of the root access bug (which was extremely bad in this case, obviously). A simple way to make the "how long to test" decision is to say that if the expected after-patch severity is lower than the known before-patch severity, then you should release. (That doesn't mean you need to stop testing, obviously.) A more nuanced decision-making process would take into account the confidence level from the QA process, the overhead of the release process, and the bad PR of releasing a buggy fix. But still, if the software has a terrible flaw and you have a fix that you're reasonably confident won't make things worse, it probably makes sense to release it.

Apple ended up taking about a day to release a fix. My understanding is they also released it as a user-initiated update for a while, then later forced the update on everyone, which seems like a fine strategy to reduce risk of widespread regressions.

Inventing a rating system, I'd say the severity of the root bug was 100 and the severity of the file sharing bug was 10, so the patch they released was an improvement even to users who ran into the file sharing bug. So over the course of multiple patches, their computers got better, even if was from terrible to bad to normal. I also think it's not obvious that another day of testing would have caught the file sharing bug, and taking 2 days to release a critical security fix is much worse than taking 1 day, in my opinion. So my impression is Apple generally made the right choices about how to release the patch, even if it's crappy that there was a regression and that such a bad security bug would exist in the first place.


If you don't do "really good QA", you end up causing more problems than you fix.


It's almost like it's a ...tradeoff.


This is the result of Apple trying to become a "fashionable products company" instead of a "premium products company".

Premium is about the whole package delivering high value - at a reasonably high cost, too. Fashion is almost 100% about aesthetics, at a much higher price. Not much value in relation to price except for branding and the exclusivity aspect (which is tied to the very high prices). But fashion often has little to do with the quality/price ratio of the product. See those ridiculous diamond-covered $50,000 phones with 3-year old specs and OS versions.

I believe Apple is also selling some ridiculous $17,000 smart watches now. The similarly priced Xeon-based Mac Pros almost enter this category, too.

It's about culture and priorities inside the company. The moment I saw them shift towards the "fashion" aspect, I knew things would start to go downhill for Apple in terms of quality as well as value per product.

If they don't check and rectify their priorities soon, they're going to have much bigger problems in the long term, maybe unfixable problems.


This is the result of Apple trying to become a "fashionable products company" instead of a "premium products company".

Absolutely. Like what does "Pro" mean in Apple-speak right now? A workhorse for serious professionals who earn their living with their tools, or the luxury version of the regular consumer version? There's a TV ad in the UK that says the Macbook Pro would be perfect for a first-year undergrad... That's not who I'd imagine a real "Pro" product was aimed at.


Apple should just make two laptops: Macbook and Macbook Pro.

Convert the current Macbook Air into a 13" Macbook that is more in line with the Air's price. The Pro should be a pro machine. Plenty of ports and no touch bar non sence, but keep the Touch ID sensor.


Crippling the Mac Mini to force people onto the Mac Pro "tower" then leaving that to rot was likewise insane. It's like Apple have forgot they only sell iPhones because iPhones are first-class citizens for all the content authored and apps developed on Macs... Take away the ecosystem and the fruits will eventually wither...


I agree. I would like to see a new Mini with good specs but Apple is uninterested in this machine, it seems.


APFS, although not buggy per se, also has its disadvantages:

'macOS High Sierra APFS Performance is Inferior to HFS on Apple’s Fastest SSD: all cost, no benefit, at least not yet.'

https://macperformanceguide.com/blog/2017/20171124_2015-macO...


I wouldn't say no benefit ... instant directory size information, instant copies are both pretty cool.


It's slower than the format it was replacing. And the upgrade destroyed quite a number of partitions. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8085383


having a more reliable filesystem is a huge benefit!

it's amazing how stuff will bitrot on HFS+.


How does APFS prevent bitrot? I thought it doesn’t do checksumming and error correction, and instead passes this task on to the SSD’s memory controller.


It checksums metadata [1]: http://dtrace.org/blogs/ahl/2016/06/19/apfs-part5/

From the same article: the engineers contend that Apple devices basically don’t return bogus data. NAND uses extra data, e.g. 128 bytes per 4KB page, so that errors can be corrected and detected. (For reference, ZFS uses a fixed size 32 byte checksum for blocks ranging from 512 bytes to megabytes. That’s small by comparison, but bear in mind that the SSD’s ECC is required for the expected analog variances within the media.)


wow, that's very disappointing.


hmm, actually, i just sort of assumed it would fix the bitrot issue! that would be bad if it didn't...


They also managed to get in another autocorrect bug on a common word:

https://www.macrumors.com/2017/11/27/ios-11-autocorrect-issu...


Maybe they can even get around to fix the issue for more or less every non-US ASCII keyboard where they seem to think character that look the same, are the same, or that they are often mistyped.

In Norwegian we have "a" and "å", they are on completely opposites ends of the keyboard and are not used interchangeably, but they always changes one to the other.

I've tried to contact support about it, even Google, as the problem persist on Android as well, but they never get back to me. So I'm assuming it's working as intentional. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


in general i feel like american software companies do the bare minimum to support other languages and don’t think past that


I always assumed there would be someone standing with Tim and Jony to complete the troika. I think it was Scott for a while, but I think they are sorely missing the truly brilliant charismatic visionary on the software side.


Who would that be?


They’re missing therefore we don’t know.


Well, he WAS Steve Jobs.


You are put in charge of Apple. How do you fix this?


Bring back a dedicated Mac operating system team that they got rid of in 2016 [0]

[0]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-20/how-apple...


Using an iPhone X only proves to me that Apple engineers make incredible software that just work....when they want to. The app switching on iPhone X is perfect bc there was probably a team on that. The problem isn’t new stuff it’s old stuff. Like is there a team just working on Disk Utility or maybe just one dude who checks iOS and macOS for date/time problems. They need a few more people.


I thought we had all decided that throwing more people at a software problem isn’t a viable solution.


Throwing more people at a software problem isn't a viable solution to meet a deadline.

Obviously there is benefit to adding more people, it's just that that benefit takes time to offset the cost of onboarding.

Communication does place an upper limit on the number of people who can work on a specific project, and later the total number of projects that can interact.

Something exploratory like what what the GP was suggesting doesn't require huge teams or a lot of interaction between teams, at least until the problems are identified and need to actually be resolved.


That's only if we're talking about a single codebase.

Throwing more people at different programs, where they are needed, e.g. some to work on Mail.app, some to work on a better Calendar, some to work on Pages, etc, is a totally viable solution.


This isn’t one software problem, it’s a shitload of software problems.


Create a Mac QA division that gets to decide when the release is ready. Make sure that any public bugs like the root login bug are specifically tested to not regress. For security things, specifically have people who's goal it is to try to break into the computer.

If the extra QA ends up slipping the release date of Mac, fine. Better to slip a date than ship software which breaks users and erodes trust.

Unlike some other commenters, I don't see this as so much of an engineering issue. Bugs are bugs and inevitable; at the end of the day, to ship quality software you have to test it. That's what's missing here.

(Not to say that good engineering practices can't make it easier to reach that quality bar, or that very bad engineering practices can't make it impossible [whack-a-mole phenomenon], but that doesn't seem to be Apple's problem here.)


> Bugs are bugs and inevitable; at the end of the day, to ship quality software you have to test it

No. Testing can never ever hope to give you bug-free products.... coding discipline and relentless pursuit of simplicity in design can.

The question is not why the testers didn't catch the "root with no password" bug - the question is really how it was possible to have it, in the first place.


I disagree. Coding discipline and relentless pursuit of simplicity are great things, but there's no amount of discipline or simplicity that is going to save you completely from bugs. You've got to test. Even mathematical proofs are often found to have errors; even formal methods will have errors in the specification.


I don't say testing is useless, but it's highly unlikely that Apple doesn't test at all.

From a point on, extra testing won't help you. I kinda doubt that the main problem here was "not enough testing"


I'm sure they test some, & you might well be right, but to me, from the outside, it mostly seems like a failure to test thoroughly that's their main problem.

E.g., the root-login-bug slipping back in is inexcusable. That bug should've entered in a "make sure this doesn't" regress list and be tested every release. Yet, it wasn't.


The trick seems to be convincing your best engineers to work on unsexy products that have long lifetimes.

Everybody would rather spearhead the new iPhone XI project, than spearhead the "add 10% to the battery life on 4-year old MacBooks" project.

You'd need an incentive program to offset fame/pride. For example, "150% pay for working on non-sexy projects" or "additional points for tangible improvements or bug fixes to legacy code".


> You'd need an incentive program

Also called "salary increases", "promotions" and "bonuses". Not just for the people who do the sexy new projects. Because let's face it - you're being rewarded far better in a corporation for releasing something new, than for fixing something old. And keeping something old working perfectly with no issue? Well, nobody hears about you, so probably you're not doing anything, you're lucky if you're not fired.

(I'm exaggerating, of course; but unfortunately, not much)


Or reframe the attitude that suport your loyal customers is bad.


Release software when it’s done, instead of when the yearly release deadline passes.


This is something I'm introducing in my company. Teams sticking to dates for releases for no apparent reason other than it's the date scheduled makes zero sense.


Ya know, I remember snarking asking in triages, “so are we quality-driven or date-driven?”, with the assumption being that any idiot would of course want to be quality-driven.

And now you’re telling me companies explicitly choose “date-driven, please”.


I hear on podcasts that apple likes to keep their teams small. I know throwing money at software problems doesn't fix things but they have enough money that they could hire some more people.

(disclaimer, I don't actually use any Apple products at the moment.)


Don’t enforce an arbitrary annual release cadence. More public beta testing. Have canary branches that users can install on a regular basis.


Make it a #1 priority, QA test the shit out of it, release a proper fix, apologize and move on.


Is anyone else here sick and tired of sensationalistic journalism? "Shockingly bad", "a nightmare"? It's just a fucking security bug, why can't you just report the news in a calm, responsible manner?


> It's just a fucking security bug

No. It's a security bug, plus a botched fix at a time when the quality of Apple software has been lower than ever (keep in mind this macOS also had the "Shows password as password hint" bug). Moreover, it's a sign that quality control and internal processes at Apple are seriously lacking.


It is not only the bugs but look at Apple failing to get the Homepod to market for the holiday. Something is definitely off at Apple


Is MacOS considered “B team” internally? Curious


Last time I checked, there was no dedicated MacOS team [0]:

> In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the iPhone and iPad more power.

[0]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-20/how-apple...


The macOS team was dissolved and absorbed by the iOS team.

It showed when I submitted a feature suggestion for a macOS app and the Apple employee apparently only skimmed the submission, didn’t check the category, and closed it because the feature exists in the iOS app. I resubmitted the feature suggestion and made sure to additionally mention in the description text this is meant for macOS (as the submission category states) so they don’t close it again.


One of the really frustrating things is that it's still unclear whether people's iOS and High Sierra installations work now.

I follow this stuff with a fair amount of interest and I'm still confused, god help the average consumer who just followed the nagging update prompts.


Still on Sierra. The High Sierra installer has been downloaded without me knowing.. I receive an annoying weekly notification that try to make me install High Sierra. And now all these really concerning bugs too.. it makes it worse Apple..


>Still on Sierra. The High Sierra installer has been downloaded without me knowing..

But with you having enabled "download updates in the background".


Me too. On macOS I like to be one version behind. I still get security updates and I get a "frozen" OS that has been tested by the entire Mac userbase for a year. New features can wait, I choose stability.


It’s great macOS High Sierra uses Metal because my MacBook Pro 2014 is now quiet when before the fan started spinning audibly in idle and annoyingly loud under mild load. On the flipside, WindowServer is unstable and causes freezes if the display resolution is scaled. It also causes freezes after some time when external monitors are plugged in/plugged out. Only a restart helps. If my 15" model weren’t so noisy on Sierra, I’d change back to it.


High Sierra is the first Mac OS update that I haven’t downloaded on the first day. Still on Sierra here.


Oh come on.

Go to Systems Prefs > App Store and tell us what your preferences are set to.

Apple has screwed up big time lately, but "hur-dur, muh mac is doing what it's supposed to do an I'm MAD bout that" isn't part of the problem.


Same here, not in a hurry to update to High Sierra now.


I've never upgraded Windows before the first Service Pack, and now Mac users are realizing that their claims that "Mac is different" were just cultish delusion. Don't rush OS upgrades!


Windows isn't perfect (as we all know) but at least rolling back to a previous version is a lot easier than how macOS does it.


"Better" QA, more testers, more developers, etc. won't catch these types of bugs if there isn't a test scenario which triggers the bug in the first place.


Apple needs to stop releasing functionality in their major releases. Seriously, I need more boring iOS vX.x and macOS vX.x releases that focus on performance, space saving, and security features, not ones that redesign f'n everything. They literally don't need any more marketing or market share, just make existing customer happy or they'll start losing the grip they already have.


I recently upgraded to High Sierra on my MacBook, and I had random reboot problems: https://discussions.apple.com/message/32649321

Downgrading to Sierra fixed it... I still don't know what was causing the reboots.


"The great thing about Apple is that their stuff 'just works'".

How much longer before this meme dies?


> How much longer before this meme dies?

It will die when the competition makes it better, and from what I've seen the competition seems to continue doing great at shooting themselves in the foot

Linux distros lack product vision, Windows looks like every click you make go through 5 backward compatibility layers and a core dating from the first Windows NT that was never refactored.


ChromeOS fits reasonably well in this category. Unfortunately it's still too limited to compete directly with Apple, but it's already pretty useful.


I keep seeing people post about that this would not have happened under Steve Jobs. I think that's unfair. I'm not a fan of Apple corporate, or Tim Cook, but I think in this new era they'll fix the issue, eventually, and all will be well. Under Jobs, countless people would have been fired and I think it would have taken considerably longer for them to admit there was a problem.


Always wait for Service Pack 2!


"When Jobs returned from his medical leave, Cook resumed his role as the person who kept the moving parts at Apple tightly meshed and remained unfazed by Jobs’s tantrums.... 'I’m a good negotiator, but he’s probably better than me because he’s a cool customer,' Jobs later said. After adding a bit more praise, he quietly added a reservation, one that was serious but rarely spoken: 'But Tim’s not a product person, per se.'" -Steve Jobs, by Walter Isaacson


I’ll give Apple one full more year and see where Mac goes. Their hardware products are truly incredible...minus Macbook /Pro. And I personally love Apple Music over Spotify but I know many disagree.


> Their hardware products are truly incredible

For example? All I see is outdated design and hardware. Only "incredible" hardware I can think of is the new chip in iphone x.


What "outdated design and hardware"?

The Macbook Pro is the best laptop out there as a power/battery life/build quality combo (having to spend for a "dongle" or new USB-C cables is not a technical concern for its technical capacity).

The iPhone X is top notch (pun intended) and has been praised in reviews all around the world. The AirPods have been described as mostly magical by their users (I'd add to that).

The Apple Watch is the best in its kind technologically, and has overtaken the #1 traditional watch maker in sales (and moves more units than competitive smart-watches). It's the only one that was deemed most accurate in its health measurements (heart, etc) from all smartwatches too in competitive tests.

The iPad continues to be the best tablet technology wise.

So?


> The Macbook Pro is the best laptop out there as a power/battery life/build quality combo

Says who? I think Surface book/pro and Dell XPS have caught up and in some ways surpassed MBpro.

> The iPhone X is top notch

Don't disagree, but the hardware is nothing special. We have had this quality and refinement in Android flagships for a couple of years now. Apple has just caught up to the state of the art.

> The Apple Watch is the best in its kind technologically

Bullshit. Smart watches with better features, better hardware and better battery life have existed for a long while now. The iwatch is good, but not better than any other comparable watch out there, hardware-wise.

> The iPad continues to be the best tablet technology wise.

I think you're repeatedly conflating sales/revenue numbers with hardware and technological superiority. MBpro, iphone x, iwatch, ipad all are very well made and very high-tech products. They all have nice hardware. I am particularly impressed by the face mapping tech in iphone. But all of them are about at par with any high-end laptop, phone or tablet. In fact there are laptops with windows hello, which work very well for face login. The Galaxy phones pack in a lot of hardware features and have had a futuristic design which apple has just come around to copying. There is no clear hardware superiority in apple's products.


>Says who? I think Surface book/pro and Dell XPS have caught up and in some ways surpassed MBpro.

Reviewers, for one. Dell XPS is nowhere near the build quality of a MBPr, the Surface Pro is close but no cigar.

>Don't disagree, but the hardware is nothing special.

In what way? It's the fastest smartphone available, smoking the competition. The camera and image processing is one of the best, if not the best, on any smartphone. AR processing. Best in class sensors. Smoking fast graphics. Most custom designed by Apple. What else would it need? Magic unicorn engine, it doesn't have.

>Bullshit. Smart watches with better features, better hardware and better battery life have existed for a long while now.

Anything concrete -- some specific model, so that we can do a comparison for those "better features, hardware and battery life"?

>But all of them are about at par with any high-end laptop, phone or tablet.

"About at par" is the best one can say.


>Bullshit. Smart watches with better features, better hardware and better battery life have existed for a long while now. The iwatch is good, but not better than any other comparable watch out there, hardware-wise.

What other brands full featured, actual app ecosystem smartwatch is the form factor of the 38mm apple watch? Which of them have LTE even as an option? It's smaller than some of the fitbit type trackers, even.

You can gripe over other things about it, but no one else makes a _small_ smartwatch like it that isn't severely limited in some way


> The Macbook Pro is the best laptop out there as a power/battery life/build quality combo (having to spend for a "dongle" or new USB-C cables is not a technical concern for its technical capacity).

You have to be joking. Apple charges $2k just to get a quad-core CPU or more than 8GB of RAM. Soldered, mind you, so you can't just replace it later. Oh, and I hope you don't need more than 500GB of storage!

Build quality tends to include things like, you know, being able to fix it when things inevitably go wrong, rather than throwing it in the bin and paying $2k+ for another lottery ticket.

> The Apple Watch is the best in its kind technologically, and has overtaken the #1 traditional watch maker in sales (and moves more units than competitive smart-watches).

And Trump managed to get elected president. I guess that says more about the average consumer than about the product they're selling.

> The iPad continues to be the best tablet technology wise.

When was it ever?


>You have to be joking. Apple charges $2k just to get a quad-core CPU or more than 8GB of RAM. Soldered, mind you, so you can't just replace it later. Oh, and I hope you don't need more than 500GB of storage!

Well, I have 1TB or storage on mine, so?

Second, whether it has cheap replacement options is not exactly a criterion about if it's the best out there or not.

Besides, any competitor product I can buy that doesn't have "soldered RAM" and would allow me to upgrade its RAM 2 years in the future, will also have lost more of its resale value compared to an Apple laptop.

I might as well sell my used MBPr for plenty of $$$ and buy a new model with more RAM 2-3 years down the road, than buy something that I can upgrade but would be selling for much much less than what I bought it for.

>Build quality tends to include things like, you know, being able to fix it when things inevitably go wrong

Horses for courses. I'd rather treat it as an opaque box, which either works or doesn't. I don't want to be the mechanic of my laptop.

>rather than throwing it in the bin and paying $2k+ for another lottery ticket.

Or you know, buying Applecare for it, and having the customer support that most people have rated as #1 in satisfaction in relevant surveys in the US for more than a decade.

>And Trump managed to get elected president. I guess that says more about the average consumer than about the product they're selling.

Well, Hillary got the popular vote, so where does that leave your argument?

>When was it ever?

Yes, since it's inception. In fact the competition for the first 2-3 years was so bad, it was laughed out of the market (not to mention the first competitors managed to cost even more than the iPad itself).


> Well, I have 1TB or storage on mine, so?

Where is that listed? The biggest one I can find on apple.com has a 512GB drive.

> Second, whether it has cheap replacement options is not exactly a criterion about if it's the best out there or not.

Presumably you'd be using it for a couple of years, not just right now.

> Besides, any competitor product I can buy that doesn't have "soldered RAM" and would allow me to upgrade its RAM 2 years in the future, will also have lost more of its resale value compared to an Apple laptop.

Have fun with your pyramid schemes.

> Or you know, buying Applecare for it, and having the customer support that most people have rated as #1 in satisfaction in relevant surveys in the US for more than a decade.

Yes, because I'm fond of paying more to (barely) solve the problem that they created in the first place. The $400 + $300 per incident add up to enough to just buy another laptop from a more competent manufacturer. Or you could just repair it, and keep the change.


>Where is that listed? The biggest one I can find on apple.com has a 512GB drive.

It's one of the customization options they give. Perhaps it's not available for the 13"? (I have the 15")

>Presumably you'd be using it for a couple of years, not just right now.

Yes, usually use them for 3 years or so before replacement (previous model I had was a 2013 one, new model is a 2017). But I pick a model based on my needs down those 2-3 years. If I have a feel I'll be needing more disk, I get a bigger disk from the start.

>Have fun with your pyramid schemes.

Selling a used laptop (or anything) is hardly a pyramid scheme. For one, it doesn't usually get more than 1 sale, making the whole "pyramid scheme" accusation moot.

>Yes, because I'm fond of paying more to (barely) solve the problem that they created in the first place.

The payment is on top of the standard warrantee, and includes accidents and such that are not covered by most warrantees, so...

>add up to enough to just buy another laptop from a more competent manufacturer

Well, good luck with that.


5K iMacs


It's a 5k screen with laptop parts. What's so great about the hardware? Surface studio is much more impressive, hardware and design wise.


And the Mac Mini is stuck in limbo... Really want a Mac Mini upgrade that is completely worthwhile.


What happens in a year?


Hopefully (maybe) Apple shows us what they’re up to with the Mac Pro. If that doesn’t happen, in a year pducks32 leaves the platform ... along with everyone else along the way.


Speak for yourself.


Apple is now operating at an almost inconceivable scale. Apple is on track to become the first 1tn company in the world. Apple is the absolute leader in mobile chip designs, and their lead is extending. The iPhone X is such a bold step forward, that in the Steve era we would assume a product like that could never happen without him.

It's easy to see where Cook falls short. It's much harder to figure out what went right at Apple because of his leadership, that otherwise would have gone awry.


>The iPhone X is such a bold step forward

What is "bold" about it, specifically?


An entirely gesture based UI, where even going back to the home screen or switching apps requires gestures, rather than pressing a virtual or physical button. It's the only phone out of all the new "almost-bezel-free" crop that actually makes an effort to get rid of useless UI chrome so that the entire screen is about the content and what you can do with it. And those gestures are particularly well thought. Where the competition like the Samsung Galaxy series removed physical buttons but merely replaced them with virtual ones, you can see Apple going forward, not just mimicking the past, whenever there's a technological progress, like the ability to produce almost bezel-free phones.

Making the bet that people are ready to pay a lot more just for the sake of having something that feels nicer to use is also what makes the iPhone X a bold step, although some of the techs existed in different forms in the previous iPhones. Yes, I'm using the word 'feels' here, it's about things like FaceID, 3D Touch, Taptic Engine and all the other things that make the iPhone X experience radically different to using something like the android competition. They actually had to completely redevelop 3D Touch for the iPhone X, the old 3D Touch technology depended on the LCD backlights which aren't a thing with OLED.

They're things that don't dramatically improve productivity and they're not things that can be considered major features like having a better camera (like the Google Pixel 2 marketing). They're things whose sole purpose of existence is to make interacting with the device feel nicer. It's something that does not exist in android land.

It's that sort of thing that makes me keep using Apple's laptops too, despite the many things I do not like about them (like the all USB-C ports). The Taptic Engine + Force Touch, oversized trackpad makes doing things like dragging something across the screen with only one finger feel so much better than what you have to do with other trackpads which require either pressing the trackpad itself on the bottom area or pressing a button. I'm still amazed they managed to make vibrations feel like you clicked a physical button.


He doesn't need to go, he just needs to do what he does well (supply chain management) and let the experts do the rest

However I do think the SW part has been going down for a while. Maybe not enough resources or management takes it for granted.

And unfortunately to me bugs like "fails the 2nd time" or "fails at a specific date" (and yes I think the same of Android's missing month bug) means there are developers who don't know what they are doing.


I've been with apple since 1995, but it seems to me that the fruit has been rotting from the inside out for some time now and it is starting to become very obvious. I hope they get their act together, because a real alternative that "just works" does not yet exist.


Apple has succumbed to the programming culture that is pervasive everywhere now -- "release early, release often." This isn't just an Apple problem, this is everywhere. We all use less stable software.


Release early/often is a mantra which fits free software development, one where there is often a second party between the software producer and the end user. This second party can be an integrator - Debian, Redhat, etc - or an IT department.

Release early/often is categorically unsuitable for proprietary, closed software development, especially for a company like Apple which directly targets end users and has made a name for producing stuff which 'just works'.

As such I don't think Apple actually follows release early/often, they just seem to think they can get by with less testing than they actually should. They also have a tendency to concentrate efforts on superficial 'improvements' while they lack the same drive to improve basic infrastructure.


Tim Cook is a less technically inclined version of Steve Ballmer. He was brought in to milk every current iteration of an Apple product until there is nothing left. Quality be damned.


This is simply false. The following things have occurred under Cooks tenure:

  - Apple Watch
  - AirPods
  - Apple Pencil
  - Apple Music
  - HomePod
  - ARKit
Each of those represent entirely new product categories, have captured the majority of a pre-existing market, or have opened up entirely new use cases for previously existing products.

Apple has significant challenges in front of them, as evidenced by this week, and Cook shoulders the responsibility for that. But, he is not Ballmer, and Apple had major security bugs and issues under Steve.

I hope the "Cook is Ballmer" trope will quickly die.


Yeah, completely unfair — under Ballmer, Microsoft seriously improved their security, going from a complete disaster to actually quite solid. It clearly wasn’t Ballmer’s engineering prowess which accomplished this, but resource allocation and prioritization in response to the market.


Well, they had a very low base point to being with. Easy to improve on that.

17+ years later, and 10000 articles about how Macs aren't really immune to viruses (duh), OS X/macOS still doesn't have any virus outbreak that wasn't actually a trojan in fact, that at worst affected only like 1% of the user base or less.

Windows had actual viruses affect tons of people regularly.


Each of those represent entirely new product categories

Smartwatches are an Apple invention? Wireless headphones are an Apple invention?

I call shenanigans.


Why did you stop reading that sentence at the first comma?


They were new categories to Apple, thus he was NOT brought in to milk every current iteration of an Apple product until there is nothing left, like the gp comment suggested.


There is an ‘or’ between each descriptive clause.

Both Apple Watch and AirPods have essentially captured their entire market.


Bette to explain why is great target then market capture. Else you would need to move goal posts later. iPhone at one time captured it's market.


Maybe in the bay area. Not in the rest of the world though.


Sorry, I disagree. Tim was not brought in. He was already there and recommended by Steve himself. He also ran the co for 2 times while jobs was on medical leave. Your comment sounded like he was brought-in from some outside org just for ceo’s Job.

Take a look at apple’s new patents . There is some serious innovation happening. There is also an attempt to replace iPhone with headgear. Although, current quality bar is a matter of concern


Right I think that explains why so many hardware devices have been delayed until they were ready. Yea definitely couldn’t be Craig or other software mangers.


Blame always runs up, never down.


That's how it should be anyways. A good leader always assumed responsibility.


Apple is tanking their good will with these. But more surprising Tim Cook is the target of rage from a lot of people, more so than Apple (from my social groups full of nontechies).

I guess that's the burden of following Steve Jobs. His personal brand was pretty synonymous with Apple and Quality.

IMO I think Tim Cook needs to go. He's a perfectly fine CEO for most companies but not Apple. Apple needs an opinionated CEO who is in touch with the average American(and the normal curve). Tim Cook says things like "If you only work for money, you will never be happy", which reveals how out of touch he is with most Americans.


I've never participated in a class action before, but I would gladly participate if someone ever starts one. I honestly wonder why no one is doing a class action against Apple.

If some lawyer decides to stand up against Apple and start a class action suit for breaking so many people's phones through iOS 11 to the point of being unusable, I'm sure they will get a lot of supporters.

I really don't care for another iPhone and I don't like being forced to upgrade because my current iPhone which used to work perfectly fine and is not even an old phone is completely broken. All apps take more than ten seconds to boot up. And I know I'm not alone because I've seen other peoples phone in person.

There should be a crowdfunding platform for class actions like this.


Probably because we've all signed away our class action rights in some TOS somewhere. Thanks Congress!


forced to upgrade?


Is this a rhetorical question?

Yes I'm "forced to upgrade".

1. They keep popping up those notifications and block my workflow until I give in and upgrade to the latest iOS version.

2. My phone is virtually unusable right now. Like I said, all apps take about 10 seconds to "launch", during which all I see is a white screen. And in many cases it just crashes after the ten seconds. I have to reboot the app to even get it to launch after the ten seconds of loading. I think this counts as being "forced to upgrade" since I have no option to downgrade the OS and my phone is unusable.




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