Online dating doesn't simply connect you to "new" people. It connects you to them privately. It is a setting in which you and you alone need to judge this person and how suitable they are as a partner for you.
I grew up in the Deep South. * I attended public school. I had non-white classmates. I knew guys who were Black or Hispanic who were interested in me.
But, I had no path forward.
In a racist environment, just talking to someone of color in a flirty way will get significant social push back. You have to be willing and able to stand your ground in order to pursue the relationship at all. People don't want to deal with something like that at the curiosity stage. Its very existence helps kill relationships before they can begin. It is just too much drama and makes it too hard to navigate the relationship.
Online dating lets you talk to people without all that. It lets you say "Hi!" and flirt without deciding five minutes after you met them that standing down the entire world is a thing you are up for.
No one in their right mind is up for that just to have coffee. You commit to that at the marriage stage, not at the making eyes at each other stage. If you have to make that decision before you can even chat them up, 99 percent of the time the decision will be to not chat them up to begin with.
Edit: I will add that the privacy angle is likely a large factor in why online dating has been so popular for starting homosexual relationships.
* A long time ago. Hopefully, it's better now.
I feel like this is still related to what the authors were claiming, that people previously only dated within their social connections. The schools I've been to were never overtly racist, but friend groups still seemed to contain mostly people of the same race/class. You'd have very few chances to meet someone outside your social group if your connections only consisted of your social group.
No. That is like saying "Don't babies spontaneously abort once your pregnancy starts to show if judgy people so much as look at your belly?"
You need certain conditions conducive to establishing an initial connection. Once that connection is established, it takes more than a withering glance to kill it. It can still be killed by social disapproval, but not so effortlessly and casually.
If you're in an environment that isn't conducive to gay people being seen as people, you may choose not to go out. Or to work up the motivation to move.
One of the reasons such climates kill interracial relationships before they can begin is because of the awareness that racism makes the personal commitment outsized and this does weird things to the relationship. Standing your ground publicly merely to flirt is a de facto signal of serious personal commitment. This makes it impossible to explore getting to know the person enough to decide whether or not you really want to make that kind of commitment. It requires you to de facto make a serious commitment on too little information. It is like being asked to sign a contract without reading it.
I didn't comment on that aspect of it in part because I don't feel I can explain it very well. But, to give an example, people who have illicit affairs always feel this must be their True Love. (Unless they are chronic philanderers.)
The very fact that they broke a taboo to get what they wanted convinces them that this person must be uniquely, highly valuable and special. The reality is that very few affairs lead to happily ever after. If the person actually gets divorced, the affair typically also ends within a year. The vast majority of affairs are only evidence that the primary relationship isn't working. But that isn't what most people conclude about their own life when they stray. They conclude this person must be super, duper special. That assumption fails to result in happily ever after in the vast majority of cases.
It is a form of Sunk Cost Fallacy.
FWIW, I do my damnedest to establish romantic relationships privately. I feel strongly that it is a decision "between me and my baby" and I feel the rest of the world can just butt the hell out. I don't like being rude to people in public but, no, I don't want to hear even casual comments about "Are you two serious?" or whatever. If you have to ask, it probably isn't any of your business in the slightest. My private life is not something I feel is an appropriate topic for casual chit chat from mere acquaintances.
This will be true in almost any public school anywhere.
Also, it doesn't address the treatment of the refugees in the camps.
Even today, in 2017, I still have to watch my back if I'm seen walking with a white woman. And I live in one of the most liberal states in the US.
Just because it never happened to you, or you never witnessed it personally, doesn't mean it can't happen.
This response seriously disappointed me. Not only did you not provide data or citations of any kind, your tone comes off as morally superior/holier-than-thou. So I'll give some back to you, Canada sure seems like a swell place to live if it contains people like you.
Overlooking that misunderstanding, I think you make a valid and important point. Lots of people here are speculating about things they have no experience with or knowledge about. I'm given to understand that as a primary cause of continuing racial discrimination - people don't experience the problems directly and therefore assume they don't exist. A great example is the problems black people encounter with some law enforcement - before the cell phone videos, much of the population didn't experience a problem themselves and assumed there wasn't one. Now even Newt Gingrich talks about it.
I also have an adopted daughter who is almost 100% European descent, red hair and blue eyes. I cannot go anywhere with her by myself without being questioned by people on the street, or the person at the checkout lane, or a few random passersby, about who I am, who she is, how we are associated. It pisses off my wife, who is 100% European as well, to no end.
To have her see this, or hear about what people asked me in any given day, has been a real eye opener. It's easy for people to put away casual racism (or just not allow it to surface) when some guy with dark skin and a beard shows up. That equation seems to change when I'm hauling around my daughter.
If anyone thinks that this is normal, ask yourself: would you do the same thing if you saw a white man walking around with two black or hispanic children?
The number of social disarmaments that I've had to my interactions with people since the turn of the century cause me anxiety and tension. People like to say "that wasn't the experience at my school", but repeated experiments have shown that even in highly liberalized areas with decent racial integration that in fights men with 'Hispanic' or 'Black' sounding names are thought to be more aggressive , and that black children receive more severe punishment at the school level, in CA and other non-southern states . Toss in the fact that having a non-white name means that you are in the 50% reduced callback pile at work ...
What I'm trying to say is that people who argue that your experiences with race are not true are either of European descent, or they grew up in some goldilocks zone of racial integration that I've yet to experience. They also deny evidence to the contrary, and there is a lot of evidence that even though I'm not beaten up or thrown in prison, we still get the shaft to some extent in our modern society.
"I have much better knives at my house".
OK, it was not the first thing I said, but it didn't scare her away ;-)
BTW, I met my first wife in a chat room on a Minitel-like system.
Just googled it and found one to be surprisingly accurate for me. It may be one of those things that is so general it applies to everyone though.
the year is 1992, the couple are posting to Usenet. What is this site thing you mentioned?
Get off my lawn
Get off my dad's lawn ;)
Also there were personals which involved writing your advert, and the ceefax service working as a PO box to route letters.
> As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable. But with the basic ratings so out-of-whack, the two curves together suggest some strange possibilities for the female thought process, the most salient of which is that the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway.
I'd also hope that all of us are being progressive and judging women based on those things (especially wealth) as well. I certainly am. Need that huge combined income to comfortably afford a house and kids anywhere that I'd actually want to live, after all.
Unless you are really ugly or have a deformity looks don't matter all that much for men. They may matter more for if you get a reply or not using an online dating site but not for dating success in meatspace.
This tacitly implies that women are sex objects and that men only seek them out as such. I find that offensive, but more so than that, sad.
You'd also have to prove that online dating has 'caused' this effect, and what you've posted is a complete lack of evidence, at best.
It could simply be that many women have better career options and don't have to settle for early marriage to whichever man in a bid for financial security and social acceptance, or changing attitudes towards more casual sexual encounters, or a number of other things.
I find it ridiculous that you are offended and sad. Your assumption is leaping to a cause that 'women are sex objects' for these men because they have higher date counts. Maybe they are more picky because they can be. Or is that so surprising more attractive men have more sex partners? And even if so, what is wrong with wanting to have sex? And why is this a bad thing for men here? I know plenty of women that at some point in their life who only want flings for whatever life reason.
Sorry a bit of a rant but I find this judgement about people having sex so archaic.
The context was:
>The top percentage of men get the lions share of the dating options and presumably more frequent sex with no reason to commit to the ladies in question while lower tier men suffer disillusionment from their lack of options.
It is explicitly stated that more attractive men have 'no reason to commit'. This seems to be an incredibly sad statement about the possibility of having a connection with another person on levels other than sex.
edit: I don't get what's wrong with what I said here? Can someone explain.
If you carefully parse the original sentence ("The top [..] men get [..] frequent sex with no reason to commit") it is making the absolute statement that good-looking men have no reason to commit, implying that the only reason for commitment is securing a frequent sex partner.
They can be completely accepting of all sorts of kinky shenanigans (as I am), yet still not consider it a good idea to paint all men with the same brush.
The statement within that context is that he has "no reason to commit to a woman."
I guess it could be just a statement of fact. "A lot of these people, they're just doing it."
It seems sloppy to throw that contextual tidbit into the middle of an unrelated sentence. Particularly given that it is a fact that doesn't really need to be explained to anyone listening. So yeah, maybe it is just sloppy writing.
But I think that is being very generous given it would have to be superfluous information within an entirely unrelated thought, meaning the writer basically made two mistakes at once.
People also tend to use with and therefore fairly interchangeably in colloquial settings.
"Let's fuck" is vital for continuation of a species, but it not the only reason why species might show a behaviour.
You've given a generalized historical basis for heterosexual sex, you haven't explained the nuances of a sentient being in modern society making a mate selection. Do some critical thinking about this, how do you personally decide who to mate with?
Which is fine and completely fair, of course. Not everyone deserves companionship. Not everyone deserves happiness, or even a base level of satisfaction.
Can you expand on that. It’s unclear what you mean by “deserves”.
What is your source for that claim?
I read it differently, as in: the most sought for men, those actively pursued by women, have more options so the date churn is higher.
Also: what’s wrong with “Just for benefits”? If both consent and agree I see nothing sad about it
Extremely attractive people belonging to either sex, of all sexual orientations, do this. Extremely attractive men treat women on dating apps as sex objects. Extremely attractive women treat men on dating apps as sex objects. Happens with same-sex pairings too. Not sure why everyone is focusing on gender when it's really looks that matter the most when it comes to behavior and options.
See again the original sentence: "top percentage [get] frequent sex with no reason to commit".
That sentence is simply too strong to be true. Nobody is denying that the possibility of easily finding someone for casual may cause some people to hesitate before entering committed relationships. But as it is written, it denies the existence of reasons for commitment other than to secure frequent sex.
There must be at least some people who, despite their excellent looks, top IQ, huge penis, and high political office still found a reason to commit to a partner. The previous US president comes to mind...
Hopefully that poster returns to clarify.
Besides finding a great life parter, one of the most surprising results is what is hinted at but not really discussed in the article. She brought a completely new social circle into my life. Although we are the same age (Roughly) and have lived in Boston for the last 20 years, the Venn diagram of our circle of friends didn't overlap.
My perception is that my social life is much more interesting at this point because of this, rather than my College friends, many of whom married their college parters.
Of course, there are other factors that could contribute to the increase in interracial marriage.... [But] “The change in the population composition in the U.S. cannot explain the huge increase in intermarriage that we observe,” say Ortega and Hergovich.
That leaves online dating as the main driver of this change.
Except there are more than two possible explanations for this correlation. For example, attitudes towards interracial marriage may have changed in the past couple decades. Therefore this is faulty logic (on the part of the author who wrote this summary, who is different from the researchers).
The study makes a good case for online dating playing a role, but it falls short of establishing it as "the main driver."
That's an understatement. According to Gallup polls, Americans approving of interracial marriage were a minority until the mid '90s, and the last poll in 2013 showed 87% approval .
I know a lot of people that are "okay" with interracial marriage, but also hope their kids do not marry someone of another race.
But if the researchers add random links between people from different ethnic groups, the level of interracial marriage changes dramatically. “Our model predicts nearly complete racial integration upon the emergence of online dating, even if the number of partners that individuals meet from newly formed ties is small,” say Ortega and Hergovich.
The original paper is probably better, but this explains almost nothing to me.
But the true cause is changes to views around the issue and increased globalization.
Huh... how can they detect that?
I usually try that with paywalls, but this was a different enough block that I didn't think of it.
While I consider my social skills just fine, I'm simply not the type of person that takes action when meeting interesting, attractive people - there are just too many barriers, questions and uncertainties. Obstacles that are easily avoided when using Tinder or similar services - from there it's just conversation and up to both participants to make the most of it. I'd say the medium is irrelevant at that point.
The exact same thing applies for different types of social interaction with strangers, not just looking for dates: meeting friends, professional networking, etc; There is still plenty of barriers, questions and uncertainties to overcome.
It's actually easy to get a date in social situations if you have good social skills, have good hygiene, and aren't unattractive (that doesn't necessarily mean you have to be attractive, just not unattractive). It has the added bonus of knowing beforehand that you have a base level of chemistry with someone as you aren't going to walk up to people asking for a date, you're going to chat them up first.
As someone who settled and is now regretting it during the divorce, I have to ask why you think people should settle? For that matter, I'm not keen to even hook up, much less get in a LTR again soon, so I have to ask also why you think people should take chances or have to "make choices"? Life is short; too short to waste on people you obviously aren't "meant to be" with. Why not apply an aggressive filter from the start and save everyone time and heartbreak?
That is, unless you "really" want to raise your kids. Otherwise, I'll just book to Bangkok.
Where did you read this?
This is another report: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/1112414...
Contains the gem:
> The findings contradict a report from the University of Chicago which suggested that online relationships were stronger. That study was funded by the dating site eHarmony.
Good old industry funded "studies."
This has been well studied. A quick Google search yields scientific articles and studies.
For two, http://theinformation.ischool.uw.edu/wp/2015/02/endless-love...
And many others.
1) The population of sf 800,000.
2) Ok, but 1/2 the population isn't into you. (male vs female). 400,000
3) Ok, but people under 20 and people over 30 you aren't interested in. A
10 (ten) year span of average age of 70. But hey we are friends here so lets do 1/5. We are down to 80,000.
4) Ok, but how many people in that time frame are not in a relationship. %10 (pulled from my facebook). Ok, that is down now to 8,000.
5) Ok, but you are into people that are physically fit. That removes %50. You are down to 4,000.
6) Crap. You like college educated people that have a job. Now you are at another %50 loss. 2,000.
7) Ok, but you are in a bar. What percent do not go into bars? %50 loss. 1,000.
8) But you are in a bar @ saturday at 8pm. People go out let's average 1 time a week (thur,fri,sat). That is another %66 loss. Down to 330.
9) You are in a particular bar. There are ~600 bars in sf., with only 330 people in SF that meet your criteria. They will not be wearing a sign.
10) So, there you are, buying $8 beer #4, standing in a bar hoping to meet someone - that statistically isn't there.
=> Online wins.
And here's a quick sanity check: spend a day walking around a large tech company like FB or Google. You'll easily see over 330 people at each company that meet all your criteria (except perhaps living in SF proper).
=> Bayes theorem wins
I still say going to those meetups made me much more comfortable talking to and getting to know women better, which probably allowed the relationship to progress to the point it has today (almost two and a half years now).
One clear flaw is that the bar-hopping population is not uniformly distributed between ages 0 and 80; it obviously starts around 21 and tapers off at some point. Not to mention the fact that bars have clientele; a bar that’s popular with 20-somethings won’t be as popular with the older crowd. Fitness, age, education level, and employment status are also correlated with each other.
The solution? Keep your eyes open when you’re at the bar, and strike up a conversation. Other single people will be doing the same, greatly reducing your odds of a mismatch. Fitness, age, and gender are also relatively easy to measure on average. It takes some effort, but it’s not a complete crapshoot as your comment indicates.
You left out "not in a relationship" which I would give a %90 reduction in odds. Which is a major point here. Because you see people at a bar I wouldn't assume they are single.
>Gallup found 14% of adults aged 24 to 34 were living under a parent's roof.
> Fully 43% of adults (87 million people) say they are single.
BTW, it's pretty easy to get dates in most social places (not just bars, but bars are included) if you have good social skills. Having good social skills also makes other aspects of your life better in as well.
Problem with online dating is it seems to make people fickle and overly critical, which is the reason I gave up online dating. Few years later I meet my spouse, in a bar.
Was he/she surprised to see you? That must have been awkward...(kidding, of course)
I mostly missed online dating the first time around, but after getting out of a long term relationship last year, I gave it a shot. Seemed to at least be a way to improve the statistical side of things.
I agree that it can make people fickle and critical. It often seemed as though people treated it like window-shopping on Amazon. I'd certainly never run across the phenomenon of "ghosting" in more traditional dating compared to online dating, but sure enough, you could go out with someone several times and enjoy yourself...only to have them drop off the face of the earth as their interest moved on.
I certainly didn't expect to be of interest to everyone (or even many at all) but while I can handle polite rejection as well as anyone could expect, the frequency of ghosting was a real surprise.
Still, there were positives. Went out with some lovely people who I would still consider friends or at least friendly acquaintances today. Met one person who I'm still involved with after several months. And it just felt like an interesting and more direct way to connect people specifically looking to date.
It's like being able to go to a bar or other social meeting place and then specifically ask to hang out only with people single-and-looking who you might be interested in. Doing that in the real world is a lot harder to approximate.
I'd be more interested in what the long-term genetic effects of matching up fairly similar people across larger and larger divides (distance, social circles, habits, professions, etc.) might be.
At least that's what I remember from ten years ago or so. Not sure if the science held up.
It eliminates so much of the bullshit you deal with by meeting a stranger through "common ties" (as the authors of this article put it) or in a social environment like a bar or outing. You can literally find someone that you'll highly likely be compatible with by answering a ton of questions and searching for exactly what you want.
My fiancee and I met on OkCupid, and we are proud to tell people that we met on there and how. I've been dating online for many years before I met her, and I can tell that the stigma associated with it has gone down a lot since then.
I wouldn't say that online dating completely eliminates the race problem, however. While it definitely makes it easier for people of different races to come together by dint of not having to rely on social circles to make connections, there are plenty of people that have their racial preferences set in stone. I've come across plenty of women whose profiles said that they were only interested in x (where x was usually someone white). I suppose that it's really hard for someone who's grown up in a homogeneous environment to try something else all of a sudden.
This became a lot clearer for me after we moved down to a Dallas suburb from NYC, where damn nearly everyone is white and the racial divide is really, really clear. I'm almost always the only person of color in the events I participate in with my fiancee (she is white) and I'm one of very, very few in our church (she picked it out). This doesn't bother me very much, and no-one has given me shit for looking different (except one dude who thought I was Mexican for some reason), but I do wonder how someone in an environment like this would go about getting romantically involved with someone non-white.
Isn't online dating changing more than just the rate of interracial marriage? I suppose complex subjects can be easily simplified by looking at only one of the effects, but it doesn't help us to understand whether it is good or bad, it only gives an indication.
Dynamite, heroin, chemical weapons, fossil fuels, and refrigeration have all been argued to be good for society due to some single inherent positive effect. They all have negative effects that were unforeseen.
If we want to know what the effect would be, we would need to conduct scientific experiments and see the results.
(open-access preprint: https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_How_Couples_Mee...)
* Edit: The paper on ArXiv cites R&T properly, it's the MIT Tech Review piece that doesn't.
When I was in high school, I'm only competing with like 2 or 3 guys for 1 girl. In college, that increases to probably like 5-10. With online dating? Feels like 50-100.
Many years ago, a woman responded to my message with a reply that included the phrase "at least you don't sound desperate."
I had no idea what that meant, so when we met I asked her and she showed me the many messages she received from other men. It was appalling to say the least. The messages were so awful and pathetic it was hard for me to understand how low their self-esteem had to be. Message after message made it clear that these guys felt they were out of options and were desperately messaging anyone in the hopes of a lucky positive reply. What woman they thought would find this attractive, I have no idea!
Suddenly the success I was having in online dating became clear. Just being pleasant and positive was putting me head and shoulders above what I would be reluctant to call competition.
Guys, just be nice, polite, friendly and have a positive spin to your dating messages/emails etc. That alone puts you in the top 1%.
But having briefly used Bumble, where the women must message the guy first, I never received a message better than 'hey, hows it going?'.
Now honestly, I don't believe that's because these women couldn't figure out a better opener. I just don't think they needed to because most men receive far fewer messages and will reply to any match.
To be fair, Bumble doesn't include a lot of space for you to talk about your interests. If I can't get an idea for who you are based on a picture (yes, most guys only have one), what more can I say other than introduce myself? My go-to icebreaker is "Hi! I'm Ali. I'm bad at this."
Edit: I should also note that Bumble isn't a great dating app if you also interested in same-sex relationships. Not relevant to the parent comment, but relevant to me.
Can't tell you how many girls love adventures and netflix; what exactly are you supposed to work with here?
You'd have to at least put some hobby or interest in your profile that I might relate to... But just asking about something very specific as a first message also sounds weird.
I really just wanna say "Hi" and see where it goes from there... What do women want?
Anyway, since dating is a market for lemons (all your competition are people who can’t get a relationship) most of them are terrible at it. Women might get tired of bad messages and quit, but they won’t ignore you if you’re calm and not too thirsty.
She's white and I'm not; although so were most of the girls I met online, so I guess that didn't change much on my end. I wanted to meet her because of the words she used and how she expressed herself made her irresistible. That she turned out to be gorgeous in person was just icing on the cake
Try OkCupid with the "nice boy" pic for a while, then switch to one with visible abs, then let us know if you still believe their slogan.
edit: p.s. if you're online dating and don't have abs, get some.
EDIT: where as --> whereas
I'm best described as "average" in appearance, which of course isn't the worst place to be, but interestingly I had much better luck than my friend with better abs. Almost as if a lot of people aren't just looking for the most attractive hookup.
I think my assumption that people are people is just as good as your assumption that abs bring a different clientele.
It seems like people arguing here have different metrics for success in online dating.
(edit: this is just relevant to the first half of the comment)
I once tried to sign up eHarmony only to be rejected even before getting to a paywall. At least they are being honest they won't find any match for weirdos like me before taking my money.
what do you mean by this?
And yes, I was looking for low-level contact with the opposite sex; but also open to a higher-level relationship if it worked out.
From everything I understand the data says just the opposite, that couples who met online are more likely to break up.
>8 percent of [married] online couples were separated or divorced over the course of the survey, compared to 2 percent of the couples who met offline.
It's interesting because the paper says people who meet on-line are less likely to get married in the first place, so it really paints a picture of how volatile these relationships actually are.
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I wonder if that is because more people are actually meeting in bars, or because people are using social media of some sort and "meeting" in a bar/restaurant for the first time and putting that in the survey instead of "online".
I firmly believe that,
We cannot address racism, by hiding races. We need to give a chance to the people to mingle with people of different races to show that they are equal.
We cannot address body shaming, by hiding people of different body sizes.
This was our base principle in FindDate and from the feedback we're receiving; it looks like people are loving it.
The only way to do it truly fairly is to disallow any physical characteristics. By only blocking some you just change the criteria/groups who are discriminated against. But who would use a dating site where you have no idea what the other person looks like?
Better to use statistics to level the playing field by, for example, showing people with less % likes more often. This is pretty much how affirmative action works. Give people biased against by other humans more opportunity to make up for it. Lot easier than trying to fix the bias in the humans.
If you think you can make humans ignore their sexual preferences by hiding certain identifiers you're a lot more optimistic about humanity than I am. I expect the most popular openers on the site to be "r u fat?" for men and "r u at least 5' 10"?" for women. Isn't it just better if those people never talk to each other in the first place at that point?
People with particular eye colour aren't oppressed as much as people of particular skin color. By grouping users by location often denies them a chance to see and mingle with people of other races and that's what we would like to avoid with FindDate.
Less politically charged example with food.... If your service simply shows all the different kinds of food available, users will generally stick with whats familiar. If the algorithm is designed to show them mostly food they've never tried before you can counter that bias and increase the likelihood the user will try new foods.
In our case we show all kinds of food by default. The user has the choice of choosing familiar food types. If it's available it will be shown first, if not it again goes back to default mode. User preference still get's priority, but given a chance to try something new; we don't see much hesitation.
I just want to make sure that I understand you. You're saying that in your dating app, you prevent people from searching/filtering based on body size and that the reason you designed your app this way was to "address body shaming"
Yet despite those pretty tight connections our social circles are essentially completely disjoint.
Just meet people in real life and leave it up to chance, you know like it has always been since the dawn of our species...
Can you imagine a shakespeare play 500 years from now where one of the major characters is an algorithm? Geez.