"pin" == "pen" : http://allthingslinguistic.com/post/81929757765/cather-wren-...
"soda" vs "pop" vs "coke": http://popvssoda.com/
All the examples I've seen overlap closely with the Southern belt of states.
For a more HN-flavored survey, I wonder if there's a clear regional boundary for "tuple". I've heard it pronounced "too-pull" (sorta like "pupil") and "tuppel" (like "couple"). Don't know if that's an East vs West coast thing or a Cambridge/Oxford/England vs MIT/Stanford/USA thing. Maybe it's just random based on who you heard it from first.
(But let us stay away from discussing "gif". There are standards of civility here.)
It really blew my mind that I had been doing something so obvious for so long without ever realizing it. What else about my speech (or, more scary, my morals) is so deeply ingrained that I don't even notice it? (Like the fish who asks, "What the hell is water?")
Both the pin / pen and the on / dawn / don differences between how I pronounced words and he she pronounced words were evident - it was rather interesting and being able to hear the difference.
Btw, its a bubbler. http://shop.wisconsinhistory.org/productcart/pc/Bubbler-Magn... and http://csumc.wisc.edu/wep/map.htm
While listening to A Way With Words ( https://www.waywordradio.org ) some time back I there was a woman calling in about a word (Pitch in) the caller didn't know and apparently everyone in the town knew. Turned out to be a local dialect word choice that the hosts were able to pin down to small pockets of townships in Indiana. The episode is https://www.waywordradio.org/regional-term-pitch-in/
I'll also toss in an older dialect survey with maps - http://dialect.redlog.net/maps.html
Some pretty funny responses coming in near the top.
Want some chups from the fush and chup shop bro? Or I'll just pop down to the dairy instead ;)
Kiwi english is one of the most interesting english accents to me. It seems like you guys have undergone a whole new vowel shift.
One of the best exercises was learning to speak with different accents in different dialects. This has actually come in very handy.
Off topic, but the missus gets a kick out of it. It's a valuable skill. I do a mean Down East accent, which is different than the rest of Maine. (I live here now.) With practice, you get an ear for the variations.
On my Father's side, my grand parents, great grandparents, and great aunts and uncles called them "dopes." It's an Appalachian term. I haven't personally heard anyone use it in probably two decades, and I've never heard my father or any of his siblings say it, but it was common among those generations when they were still alive.
That's also where it changes from we'uns and you'uns to y'all.
Well, not so much anymore. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, I made a bit of a study in accents, dialects, and colloquialisms.
> That's also where it changes from we'uns and you'uns to y'all.
In that area of Pennsylvania, as far up as Pittsburgh and maybe even beyond, it's yinz instead of you'uns or y'all.
(Don't get me started on 'law'yer vs 'loy'er, though...)
Also never heard anyone call anything but a Coke a Coke, which is a really common stereotype of Southern English.
"Do you want something to drink?"
"Tea or a soft drink if you have it."
I'm from CLT, but when I think of what I would expect to see on a menu if I'm looking for a coke, it's "soft drinks". Likewise, if someone comes over to my place, I might ask, "Can I get you a drink? I've got Sweet Tea and Cokes in the fridge." Though more commonly I would say "something to drink". I've heard that in other parts of the country though, "drink" only implies alchoholic beverages, which was very different from my experience.
Now that I think about, maybe the reason we prefer "soft drink" is because sodas are usually grouped with sweet tea. And sweet tea really is the ultimate sweet, cold, drink of choice in NC. Though Coke or Sprite will do if a restaurant doesn't have any brewed and ready.
It's not. Would you force my nose to continue to run because you don't have the Kleenex brand? Or must I continue to bleed because you don't have a Band-Aid brand bandage?
Just because I'm amused by a particular language difference doesn't mean I wouldn't give you whichever beverage you prefer if I knew what that was.
The reason it's silly though is because a Coke is materially different from a Pepsi or Sprite or Dr. Pepper. If someone said they were going to bring me a Coke and I got a Pepsi, I would be confused and maybe a little disappointed. I can't tell the difference between kleenex and off-brand, but I definitely can tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi. It's not a huge deal, but it would be a misunderstanding that seems avoidable with more specific language, so it's amusing to me.
It's cool if that's not how it's interpreted in your parts. I'm not knocking you for using whichever terms you want. I'm just explaining why I'm not going to adopt that terminology.
I prefer to call shopping carts "buggys", but I get why others would be confused or think that's a silly term if I said that around them. Doesn't mean I'm going to stop using it or feel bad about it, but I understand if it's not really understood outside my region and seems like a silly word.
Will you get me a coke? Sure, what kind? Sprite...
My wife is from Boston too.
I love stuff like this, I've lived in Texas 13 years and have been pronouncing taco wrong until pointed out to me.
They say itmore like tocko than tacko like Brits do.
For me "tonic" has a fairly short vowel in the first syllable. Whereas "Tawnic" would have a longer vowel. There's also a different in sound. You might hear my "aw" as if it was a long "o" sound. The Australian vowel system is really nothing like the American vowel system.
The first syllable is drawn out much more than I would hear that word somewhere other than New England.
(I was going to go with Bostonian, Southie, but decided this one was better.)
so some confusion as TX was part of the confederacy ('the south') but isn't exactly 'the south', as most 'real southerners' would agree (but not southern leaning TXans)
To clarify what I mean by "of English origin", of course all of the words in English are inherited from some other language, be that Latin, Greek, Anglo-Saxon, French, etc... I am specifically referring to words of Anglo-Saxon origin, which are not recent imports into the language.
Here is my understanding on the unspoken rules (at least, they were never explicitly taught to me) for how to pronounce English words that you have never seen before. Isolated vowels are to be pronounced in their short form when followed by two sequential vowels, and their long form when followed by one consonant and one vowel. That is, "VCC" is short, and "VCV" is long. For example, "pick" is not pronounced the same as "pike", because the vowel sound in the middle differs, even though the terminal "e" in "pike" is silent. Similarly, "bite" and "bit" only differ in the vowel sound -- a terminal "VC" acts as a "VCC" (except when it doesn't, like "put" vs "putt"... I never said there weren't any exceptions). Incidentally, this is why words with terminal "VC" frequently double the consonant when adding suffixes ("beg" -> "begging", "bed" -> "bedding", "cram" -> "cramming").
An observant person would note that "tuple" in fact follows the "VCC" form. Words or word-parts that end in "le" are frequently to be pronounced as though it ends in "el". For example, take the word "apple". There is unambiguously a vowel sound that occurs between the "pp" and the "l", so it's pronounced more like "appel". In the case of "apple", there are two consonants after the "a" even if you do flip the "le" at the end, so the "a" is short regardless. But if we reverse the "le" in "tuple", we get "tupel", which does follow the "VCV" order, so it seems like it should be pronounced "too-pull". However, we typically follow different pronunciation rules for words of foreign origin, and since "tuple" is of Latin origin, we pronounce it "tuppel". Compare the pronunciation of "avi" in "behavior" (Anglo-Saxon) to "pavilion" (Latin).
I am not a linguist in any sense, and so this is all my amateur reasoning about how English words are pronounced. When looking for Latin examples, I definitely ran into more exceptions than not, so take this all with a grain of salt.
'Greasy' was burgers/fries/bike-chains, and 'greezy' was reserved for people like that 'uninvited back-rub guy'.
Googling around, there doesn't seem to be an equivalent map out there for AAVE.
The first is mostly used by people who have lived in a fairly homogeneous environment (ie mostly people of their race & cultural background, which in the USA happens to be white and christian), and it is a very strict one. Murdering a black person while shouting "all black people must die!" would undeniably be "racist" under that definition, and so would a law that says there must be separate facilities for white people and people of other races. However, that definition does not encompass much in the way of acts that do not blatantly qualify as racist.
The second definition, used mostly (but not only) by people who are not of the dominant racial or cultural background, defines racism as a broader system of interconnected pieces (some historical, some cultural, some legal, etc.); some of them which might not appear strictly racist at first, but when observed within the broader scope of the system they function within, contribute to a general systematic alienation of the population based on racial or cultural features, or in other words, "racism".
People who function with the second definition might find the linked article "racist" in that sense, because while it is a well documented article, it presents a picture of the US that is lacking many speakers of American-English, the vast majority of them non-white. Of course, that map is a flawed representation in the first place - dialects are not distributed neatly along smooth lines as depicted. But it is flawed in a way that totally erases the existence of many speakers of American-English (unless one wants to make the argument that these communities do not speak American-English, which I think most HN readers can see as absolutely silly). The map, like any other map, is a flawed representation; but it is one that, under this definition, could be said to be flawed in a racist way. This does not mean that the author is racist; merely that the work was produced within a dominant homogeneous socio-cultural context, that many take issue with.
The USA is currently undergoing a deep identity crisis, where the hegemony of the cultural majority is being challenged by people who identities have been ignored over the centuries (some due to genocide, some due to slavery, some because they were just poor immigrants at the bottom of the totem pole, but whose descendants are very much native to the USA and are confined to ghettos, etc), and who are now able to express themselves due to the new forms of media that have emerged. Many people living outside of the US (and many within) do not have much of an understanding of this situation, either because they have not been exposed to it sufficiently, or because they outright deny it (for one extreme of it, see Steve Bannon's reaction when an interviewer says that all Americans except for Native Americans are immigrants ).
A similar phenomenon is also happening with the notion of "sexism".
Here in Oregon, a general (and I must say unfair) disapproval of transplanted Californians exists, and that use of the definite article is a "tell" that the natives have learned to look for.
> When Southern California freeways were built in the 1940s and early 1950s, local common usage was primarily the freeway name preceded by the definite article. It took several decades for Southern California locals to start to also commonly refer to the freeways with the numerical designations, but the usage of the definite article persisted.
"Take the Ventura Freeway" -> "Take the 134"
True for more than just single digit numbers too, e.g. I-205 vs. the 405.
But for multi-digit, it's virtually never there - it's 405 and 520 (without "the"!), not I-405 and WA-520.
Now that I think about it, it's probably not so much about the number of digits, as it is about the number of words. So I-90 gets the prefix because "ninety" is a single word, but I-95 somehow sounds strange.
I guess it's what you grew up listening to.
To the driver these are just freeways. Now LA did have many more major freeways which were state routes and not Interstates (with the occasional US Highway, such as the 101) than most places do. Where I grew up in the mid-west, we really only had Interstates and regular roads and did say I80 and never, "the 80"
If someone told me "I took 5" I'd expect them to be talking about some kind of quantity and wait for them to finish the sentence.
Can a non-American native speaker maybe chime in how this works in other dialects? I'm wondering whether it's Californians who are the odd ones out or whether it's just uncommon in the US.
"I-5" to me sounds a little harsh and hard to say to my ears vs. "I-95" or "I-80" which have a nicer ring to them, so maybe that's how this sort of thing could develop if that's just how the major highways ended up being numbered in different parts of the country.
Triple digits come from being a spur of a two-digit highway incidentally, not to do with region. I-385 is a spur of I-85, etc.
the habit is spreading as people start leaving socal in larger numbers though.
I think you're thrown off because 5 is such a low number. Most highways have higher numbers, so it looks more natural without the "the".
Using Dallas highways as an example, "I took 635 to Preston". Or maybe chain some highways "I took 121 to 75, then to 635, and I got off at Royal".
The only highway in Dallas we use "the" for is the Dallas North Tollway, which most people just call "the Tollway" (NTTA is currently trying to push an acronym, "DNT", but nobody uses it). And I've seen a few people refer to President George Bush Turnpike as "the Bush", which is uncommon enough that I do a double take whenever I hear it (it's usually just "Bush" or "George Bush"... and maybe "190" from people who remember when it was under construction before they decided to turn it into a toll road).
Such roads often have numbers. But I've never committed them to memory or used them in ordinary conversation. Based on the precedent of the "M1", I guess I'd expect "the C520" or whatever. But that recommendation is probably not worth the paper it's printed on.
Btw. It's nice if you omit the word "linguistically". It's good to remember that just because you speak a language, that's not the same as being an expert on language science. Any more than because you inhabit a body, you're an expert on physics.
As a native English speaker I would say the same thing. "Take the I95" and "Take highway I95" both make sense to me. Maybe the Americans posting on this thread are talking about the second usage?
This is how I hear it said around South Florida though. It's also possible my mind just edits out 'the' when people talk about it
Take that back! Just because you're not used to quintuple time.
Source: from socal.
Given the context the definite article seems unneeded to my ears.
Huh, that's pretty standard here in the greater Toronto area (e.g. the four-o-one, the four-o-seven), in context it also works for TTC route numbers (the five-o-one, the five-eleven).
Also, how far outside of SoCal does the term "Freeway" get used? The only time I remember hearing it as a youth was in the movie Clueless, but is used all the time here in Santa Barbara.
Right: "I drove out 26 to John Day to fill my elk tag".
Wrong: "I drove down the 5 to that new Sushi-Yoga place".
Here's an article that purports to explain why:
And yes, it's definitely a Southern California/LA thing.
i would have said "the freeway through Cahuenga Pass."
And come to think of it, that's exactly how Waze and Google Maps and Apple Maps turn-by-turn directions read to me. Do these programs use different dialects in Southern California?
I would use the definite article with a route on a transit system, though, for example to identify a bus line or (when in a city that has one) a subway: "I'll ride the 28 home" or "I commute on the 10".
"How do you get there?"
"Take 10 what?"
I've been seeing this meme a lot more lately. For some reason, it seems to be in fashion to make fun of people from [Southern?] California in this way at the moment.
So I drive on I-5 or I-90.
If it's a spur, then I just use the number. From Redmond, I would get on 405 to go to Bellevue. When I drive from Sunnyvale to Palo Alto, it is usually fastest to take 101 unless it's rush hour.
This is the same where I now live in New England, as well. "495", "128", "Route 3", "Route 1", "The Mass Pike"
"I'll take 85"
"If you're going to LAX from Ventura, Take Route 101 to I-405." Alternativeley "US 101" could be used.
I am a born and raised Cascadian. That said, years ago I heard Californians call it "the 5" and thought it was brilliant, so I started using it. Friends in both Oregon and Washington give me the stink eye for adopting this foreign style of speech, but it's all in good humor.
Just to really mess with people, I really like to say "cheers" in place of "thank you" too. Adds some international charm to their day.
Of the Republic of Cascadia?
Already different groups of people are quite isolated in terms of the video and audio they consume everyday (vloggers and podcasters).
However, much of the internet is written and not spoken. So we gets new ways to write (doge, memes, 4chan green text, etc.) but not really new accents.
I've really grown to hate this intro, plus the whole "bouncy" style of pronunciation. To me, it sounds a lot like "I'm trying too hard to get attention", like that of a 2 year old repeating "dad. dad. DAD."
Because Jeremy has lived in his basement for most of his life, he has had very little conversation with any other person and has therefore taught himself how to speak.
EDIT: The stereotypical "out" and "about" pronunciation is much more prominent in Southern Ontario.
I do hear a difference between western Canada and Ontario (I'm from the former and live in the latter.) But there's also a known dialect difference between central and southern Alberta (former settled by English/Ukrainian/Germans the other by American immigrants).
Rural Ontario, well, that's another story.
Apparently now there's the "THE CAMBRIDGE ONLINE SURVEY OF WORLD ENGLISHES" , apparently by the same individual, but I've only just started looking at it.
There is no option for "ginger".... not impressed ;-)
We also use the word "juice", which I feel reflects badly on our diet.
Aside from being orange, I don't have recollections of a very gingery flavor tho...
I do recall there being a "spicy" variant a few years ago that did taste a bit like ginger but, as I can't stand Irn Bru at the best of times, I don't recall the details.
Source: married to a Scot that basically lives off the stuff. Bit surprised she isn't magnetic.
But there's still some tells like "soda" vs "pop" and you can pry "y'all" out of my cold dead hands. My wife and I had been living in Atlanta a couple years when I was speaking over the phone to a coworker in Syracuse, NY. Toward the end of the call she told me I had a lovely southern accent. Hung up the phone, called my wife, "Honey, it's time to move." :-)
Fun fact: I'm told that in Dallas, TX "y'all" is singular, the plural of which is "all y'all."
I remember talking on a conference call many years ago with people from (I think) Intel and after I'd been speaking for a bit someone announced "Who is that on the call with the really thick Scottish accent - I can't understand a word he is saying".
My difficulties with Siri (and I tried really hard to get it to recognise 'Hey Siri' and only got slightly angry) leads me to suspect that my accent may still be there.
It's the entire reason I can't get into House of Cards. Frank Underwood is supposed to be from my area of the country, and speaks with some kind of Charleston-ish non-rhotic accent.
That tends to happen a good amount, I think. I've seen it happen to me (subconciously picking up the use of certain accents or local words), after moving from one region of India to another, say between central / northern / southern parts, and also to other people (Indian colleagues) when we went to Malaysia. Within a few weeks, some of them were adding -la (pronounced lah) to the ends of their sentences, which is a thing that local people do there.
As I'm sure you are aware, of course you do. Everybody has an accent. To my European ears, all Americans most certainly have heavy ones.
False fact. Source: life long DFW resident. It is plural in basically all uses.
group of people : bunch of people :: y'all : all y'all
The former being an associated collective.
There may be some small, isolated spots in the South where that's true, but they're not common, and, as someone born and raised there, Dallas is definitely not one of them.
That being said, not everyone in DFW talks that way. Many prefer a more subdued midwestern style. The metroplex is full of transplants from all over, so there isn't a lot of pressure to talk like a local or something.
I've heard it for the plural in Dallas and Houston but in less salubrious parts of town.
It took me a lot of work/traveling around the U.S. to detect my own bastardized Michigan accent, which people on both coasts think is very cute and very Canadian+Chicagoan. When I'm feeling playing playful I take it full Fargo to make 'em laugh. My accent is very apparent to me now, and it's made me appreciate all the flavors and refrain from stereotyping.
I really enjoy trying to pinpoint geographic origins from people who have the "TV accent", since there are always subtle indicators that often surprise me after I inquire further into someone's background.
(I agree 100% on "Y'all". Y'all is an awesome contraction; should be considered a legit word and imported north. "You guys" seems clunky compared to y'all, latter of which is one syllable and sounds right.)
This map seems to depict the west as much more homogenous than it actually is. Angelenos sound very different than Portlanders, for instance (moving south along the west coast seems to correlate with more modulation of pitch and more vocal fry).
As a kid I pronounced caught/cot differently but have lived all of my adult life in places where they are pronounced the same, and so I don't say them differently any more.
I grew up in Eastern CT and the only people I've met for whom "caught" == "cot" or "dawn" == "don" are from working class families in Boston.
The following wikipedia article discusses the two phonemes and how they are merged in many dialects of english, and contains audio samples of the same guy pronouncing both words.
Great share! Thank you!
Off topic: if you haven't seen Letterkenny yet, please watch. It is rural Southern Ontario. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4647692/
- There's what I've sometimes heard called the "Mission accent", which can easily be mistaken for New York or Boston if you're unfamiliar with it. Rs get soft or disappear and vowels get very east coasty. I heard the origin of this is from decades ago when the Mission was an Irish neighborhood.
- There's an accent which to my DC area ears sounds kind of southern, almost like the Ozarks. Maybe that has similar roots to the one described here as pin=pen in the San Joaquin Valley, but I'm not too familiar with those parts.
- Nancy Pelosi came from Baltimore and has the accent to boot (I heard a lot of people talking like her in my DC area childhood), but her speech patterns don't sound too far off compared to older San Franciscans. I presume that's a phenomenon from the "pocket of Midland accent" that I've seen on this and other maps.
I think most of this is probably dying out in younger people. (And of course most 20s-30s types you meet in SF are from somewhere else.)
There's a general tendency of accents merging or becoming more similar but new accents develop out of that as well. I think you underestimate the effect everyday speech has on people. Take the Dutch for instance. They're famous for almost universally speaking English very well. The main reason for this is that in the Netherlands foreign language films, TV series etc. come with subtitles instead of a dubbed version. Still many still have a recognisably Dutch accent.
Then there's another phenomenon that in language history so far has only happened to English: There are more non-native speakers than native speakers. So we might very well end up with something like a universal, worldwide English accent. It might just not sound like any of the native English accents at all.
That is a wonderful point that I've never thought of before.
You can really envision a lingua franca that is English but not American English or British English but Global English.
Second and third generation English speakers who live in a non-English speaking country as a majority of English speakers - will they be like how English is used in India or something completely different?
Many small dialects are disappearing, but others are becoming more divergent (out west). It's a mixed bag.
(Sometimes, I feel surprised when I meet someone else who was born in the city I live in. But if I listen to how someone speaks, no matter if they're fifteen or fifty, I can tell whether they're from here.)
Since the map is (as far as I could see) a raster, does anyone have any recommendations on engines that can overlay information on maps (preferably open, ranging from svg + inkscape to a custom osm visualizer). I am just asking for curiosity's sake, nothing professional in mind here.
There are a few open map engines, I guess mapserver and mapnik are 2 of the more prominent ones, and now there are several implementations using OpenGL (aimed at tiled vector maps in browsers). But that is all more at the toolkit level rather than the application level.
For simple stuff, using leaflet to draw on top of OSM tiles is a nice solution.
"A tour of the British Isles in accents" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8mzWkuOxz8
It does heat maps of features, rather than trying to group bundles into discrete areas. This is probably more accurate, because it shows you were features are strong. Sometimes they'll correlate with others, sometimes not.
You can't drive 10 miles without new accents in populated areas more like!
Also, I have serious doubts about the "differences" in SF Bay Area upper and lower peninsula pronouncing "on." Source: 40 year resident.
But it's a great map, and I'd love to work on this type of thing somehow!
It might be ironic if someone from Alabama was describing snow, though.