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Branding workaholism as a desirable lifestyle choice (nytimes.com)
95 points by artur_makly 11 months ago | hide | past | web | favorite | 100 comments

Anecdotal, obviously, but:

I worked 80 hour weeks (including some time on weekends) for about a year and half as an early developer at a startup (employee 15) a bunch of years ago. The startup failed (pity-acquired by an investor a couple years after I left; common shareholders got nothing). I did learn a lot, and was fortunately paid very near market-rate, but it was at the expense of my physical and mental health, and social life during that period. And boy was I burned out by the end. Fortunately I was single and had no family, and even then it took a huge toll.

At my current company (been there 6 years, joined as around employee 70), I tend to work ~45-hour weeks (with occasional very-short-term spikes near a product launch). The company is successful (IPO last year). I've learned a lot, but most importantly I'm happy. I have a busy social life, time for a SO, and take 4-6 weeks of vacation a year (as one of the relatively few people who actually takes full advantage of the unlimited vacation policy). Don't get me wrong: I work hard. I get a lot done. I just get it done without grinding myself down into nothing.

In my experience there's a negative correlation between long hours and success&happiness. Certainly there are people who have found success through (or perhaps despite?) long hours. And maybe many of them have brainwashed themselves into believing all that has made them happy, and maybe even some of them are genuinely happy.

I just don't think it's worth it -- for me. Everyone has a different definition of success: for some it's making 7 figures and retiring at 30 comfortably. For others it's making 9 figures and retiring lavishly. For others it's making less, but having a steady, secure job, and having copious time for hobbies, friends, and family. And everything in between.

I think it's difficult to draw the line. For some people, working themselves nearly to death is actually what they want to do. I think that's fine, but the problem becomes when that is (as it somewhat is now) the norm, and people who don't want to do that, have to do so anyway just to survive in the industry.

"and even then it took a huge toll"

There's a real lack of awareness of an openness about the toll crazy hours extract from all too many people, not just in startups but in many larger companies as well, and the prevalence of them not just in tech but among so many professions.

A tiny fraction of society can lay back and relax off of a 2% or less interest on their investments, while so many of the rest are working until they collapse (physically or mentally), and it's considered business as usual -- and if you can't keep up you are stepped over and forgotten as the rest get on with getting ahead.

The guy is developing an app that lets you visualize how a coffee table from a catalog might look in your living room.

Something Autodesk has offered for years and gives away.[1] Available for IOS, Android, and browser. This guy is killing himself to build a me-too product.

[1] https://www.homestyler.com/mobile

Thanks for sharing this. Its sad, but I see soooo many startups that (somehow) get funding to:

* Build an idea that already exists, is cheap, and well-executed by another company

* Build something that is so limited in scope that it could be replaced by a competitor (or your OS) basically overnight

You could do something interesting in that space.

Autodesk stopped offering HomeStyler. It's now offered by 北京居然设计家家居连锁集团有限公司, which is www.shejijia.com, a big furniture retailer in China. The software isn't the hard part. It's the furniture catalog. Such programs are only useful with a big 3D model catalog, and the party that has the incentive to provide that is a furniture dealer.

Amazon needs that capability. Develop a good 3D capture program specialized for furniture and you might have something. Something that guides you through taking enough images to get the whole object into the model cleanly. Make that available to Amazon sellers. Or eBay sellers.

Autodesk also used to offer 123D Catch[1]. A free app that used photogrammetry to give you a 3d object. I'm pretty sure it gave you textures (and UVs).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodesk_123D#Additional_appli...

Something like that would be amazing in VR or AR.

That's because the amount of talent, companies, developers and workforce far exceeds the number of available opportunities, so naturally only a tiny percent can build something of great enough value.

In app purchase to visualize said coffee tables, with a book of coffee tables on them?

If I were to sell my soul to work insane hours (80+ per week) I'd work in finance instead of software development. The prospects of making it big in software are pretty slim, even with "hustle", because the important thing is not due to your work ethic as much as luck, capturing the right market, and being able to capitalize on it effectively. If you're doing a startup, you don't often start with much money and won't make good money until you're well past the point of profitability. Contrasting to finance, where you can (apparently, I don't know first hand) pull in mid 6 figures easily if you do your time and get the right clients (and once you get the right clients part of that high work time is meeting the client anyway). I consider workaholism just another form of addiction, and at least I'd like to get paid well for that addiction, and if I had the drive to start a business I'd at least have the capital to do it then.

Beyond this, as an employee I think it is insane for a company to expect you to work the same as a co-founder for relatively little. If the culture was to be working 70 hours per week or essentially always needing to have your phone with you and be available, then it's the sign of a toxic work culture. I can kind of understand around "crunch time" even though I think it's a symptom of bad time management and probably announcing something before you should have. I can kind of understand a founder putting in that much work, even if I do think it's unhealthy, but not an employee.

"If the culture was to be working 70 hours per week or essentially always needing to have your phone with you and be available, then it's the sign of a toxic work culture."

Or it could be a sign that you work in ops.

Ops here. Never been on-call or had to work more than 40 hours in the previous 5 years of doing this as a career, but then again, I've always been a consultant in some capacity for multiple clients so YMMV.

The needing your phone with you, yes, but not the 70 hours part. If you have to work 70 hours as an ops your employer is too stingy to get another ops.

A VC doesn't care about your health. If you don't look after yourself, no-one will.

I ended up getting fat and a few health issues working at a unicorn start up. It took me 18 months to realize how badly I was handling it. Correcting for that work culture required a decent about of self reflection and introspection, that was hard to manage while working 60 hours a week.

From the article: "The truth is that much of the extra effort these entrepreneurs and their employees are putting in is pointless anyway. Working beyond 56 hours in a week adds little productivity, according to a 2014 report by the Stanford economist John Pencavel. "

I don't see how the study, which was done on manufacturing / production workers, necessarily applies to knowledge workers or entrepreneurs?

My experience working 80-90 hr weeks was that as long as I had flexibility to vary the tasks I didn't sense any drop in productivity. In many cases the fewer context switches increased the amount of "flow", and projects went more quickly than they would have.

I know I can push myself to write code for well over 70 hours per week, but I definitely find that the quality of that code degrades sharply at some point. When I look at some of that code later, after I've had time to rest, I wonder what the hell I was thinking.

I might have produced more output, but all the mistakes I've made have to be fixed at some point, sometimes by someone other than me, and there's a real cost to that. The longer a bug lingers, generally the more expensive it is to fix (even if it's being fixed by the person who wrote it in the first place). The kind of death marches we're talking about rarely involve time to go back to fix any but the worst bugs or pay down any technical debt, at least not until much later down the line.

And regardless of that, why would I want to spend all my waking hours writing code? Life is so much more than that. (You're welcome to disagree with that, but I dare say you'd be in the minority.)

> My experience working 80-90 hr weeks was that as long as I had flexibility to vary the tasks I didn't sense any drop in productivity. In many cases the fewer context switches increased the amount of "flow", and projects went more quickly than they would have.

Did your experience rigorously measure how many mistakes (bugs, if you're a developer) you made during hours over 56 relative to baseline, and how much it cost someone else down the road in cleanup and opportunity costs to fix them?

With programmers, at least, they can keep writing code well into 100 hours a week and beyond, but the trustworthiness of that code falls off, and that's a problem. It's a well-known result that fixing bugs costs many times more than not making them to begin with.

I saw no difference in quality of work, nor did I get reports on any. I believe the key reason is the ability to change tasks. Been writing code for 4 hours and tired of it? Switch to documentation, regression testing, managerial tasks, ticket triage, spec writing, or something else from your list instead.

Want to go see a movie in the middle of the day, take a nap, or take a two hour lunch to regroup? No one cares.

For startups especially it's do-or-die, so this type of pressure will never go away.

Imagine you had two 5-person startups each building a social media management platform to capitalize on a growing market. The space is quickly becoming crowded, and while not winner-take-all, most entrants will fail.

Company A: They work 90 hour weeks, weekends included. The willingly give up their social lives, take no vacations, and work as hard as they can. They'll sleep at the office if they have to.

Company B: They work 40 hour weeks, and take a normal amount of time off. At the end of the day they go home and relax with family/friends.

Either company could succeed in the end, but which has the better chance? Which attracts more VC interest? Who gives a better impression to prospective clients? Who builds a fully functional platform first?

In my experience Company A often trounces Company B.

If it was a failed startup all their code was in the end useless garbage.

That's a pretty silly, cynical, and useless way to look at it. The evaluation should be from a technical point of view of code quality: did the code do what it was supposed to do, and do it well? After all, that's what's being debated in this particular thread.

This is independent of the business value of the code, which of course matters in an entirely different way. However, that's not really the responsibility of the engineer so much as it is the business leaders.

I had a Math professor in college who used to say amount of effort almost doubles if you wish to score a few extra marks above some point.

Like say if the you are already scoring 80/100. Going to 90 will almost take same the effort it took going from 0-80. Going 5 more marks higher will mean a similar long slog effort. It was simply his way of saying doing big stuff required insane amounts of effort. Often not justifiable.

I have seen something similar in competitive programming too. After a while solving regular problem gives your very little exposure in return, to keep your returns coming, you have to up your problem difficulty level at every step. And that consumes time.

You don't need to work 24/7. At most jobs, you just need to seem like you work 24/7. Batch up all your emails for the day, then space them out to be sent at odd hours like 11:30pm and 5:45am using something like Boomerang for Gmail.[1] Everyone will think you're working constantly.

[1] http://www.boomeranggmail.com/

I work at a company that's extremely supportive of good work life balance. We offer lots of flexibility on hours, facilitate working from home, and encourage people to work at a sustainable pace.

That didn't stop one fellow, many years ago, from trying exactly this. He'd commit code that was simply reindentation/style changes, send emails, etc, late at night, in an attempt to paper over the fact that he was simply a weak contributor that produced low quality code.

Everyone saw straight through him and recognized the absurdity for what it was.

Maintain work-life balance. If the company you work for doesn't support that choice, work somewhere else. It is an absolute lie that "most jobs" need you to "seem like you work 24/7", and perpetuating that lie only makes it easier for the bad actors to justify their behaviour.

Completely agree. Was joking in my original comment. Obviously having a healthy lifestyle will lead to increased productivity. Fetishizing workaholism is dumb and a big part of why Wall Street is struggling to retain talent these days.

Honestly, I figured that was the case, but, as my experience demonstrates, some people might actually take that suggestion seriously!

Please don't do this. It just makes everyone else feel like they have to work 24/7. It's very, very toxic.

You mean I don't have to be stupid,there's an app that just makes me look like I'm stupid! Praise the tech gods!

This sort of attitude is extremely toxic.

Hey, guess what happens when you tell someone you work in programming in a large (tech) city? They immediately write you out of their life as someone who is A) boring and B) working 24/7 anyways.

Typecasting sucks.

That's not been my experience of Seattle at all. One of the reasons I have stayed here so long is that there's so much cultural overlap between techies, artists, musicians, burners, etc.

Maybe this is something that has been changing recently - I hear people griping about "brogrammers" now, though I've never actually met one, so far as I know. And perhaps Burning Man culture is not the binding force it used to be, now that the event has gone mainstream.

It did take me at least a year before I really started making any friends here, but my experience has been that... once you find your way in, you're in.

>I hear people griping about "brogrammers" now, though I've never actually met one, so far as I know.

Yep, that's been 100% my experience. I don't know what a "brogrammer" is, only that apparently I am one and they are scum. And I've been here for 3 years. It's been getting worse; two years ago people would at least talk to me for more than a few minutes at a time. One year ago people would grudgingly give me a chance, but you could see them clocking out once tech stuff came up.

This year, the resentment is palpable. And I'm so tired of putting in so much and ... I just can't do this anymore.

Can you blame them? You took their homes. I would resent anybody who took my home.

Yes, I can. I didn't take shit; I don't own property, and at this rate, their precious houses are in no danger from me.

So mission accomplished; congratufuckinglations.

And I'll bet you dislike Trump's anti-immigration policies, to boot. So do I, but unlike people here I put my money where my mouth is.

I'm not sure why you made it about me.

Every tech worker in Seattle and SF is able to afford the very high rents in those cities while the local population cannot. They are absolutely being pushed out by the influx of these people who are raising the pricing floor.

What is that even supposed to mean? You donated money to immigrants, maybe? Unlike what you imagine other Seattlites do? Also, it's silly to think that you'd have to own a house to be part of the "taking their homes" equation.

Did you not just typecast everybody who gets told you work in programming in a large city?

I've been trying to meet new people for 3 years straight after moving to a new city with lots of programmers. It's anecdotal, but I'm speaking from experience.

I don't know anybody in this city who I don't work with. I have never had more than one conversation with someone who I wasn't about to pay for something.

It's awful. It's so lonely. And I've never run into this issue in other places. I work less than 9-5 and have hobbies outside of work, but...nothing.

Is it a fun big city or rural midwest?

I've never run into this issue. But, not making friends in a new city may just mean it's a personality issue vs a friend making issue.

Have you tried dating apps? They have a friend option.

It's a fun city; I'd love it if not for the people.

It's baffling and honestly distressing; I've made friends before in other places. I don't have political views anathema to how most people in the area think. I try to be respectful and unobtrusive and kind. I honestly moved here thinking it'd be full of weirdos like me. I dunno, maybe that's the problem.

And don't even get me started on dating apps.

This fascinates me so I'd really like to hear more! Do you have any idea what might be the difference in this situation compared to other places?

Just off the top of my head one thing that comes to mind is that age might play a role. I've noticed that making new friends in a new place has been more difficult since I entered my thirties.

Another could definitely be culture. While I believe almost every city beyond a certain size will have 'pockets' of particular types of people, and thus that it should be possible to make friends anywhere, I've definitely found that in some places my kind of crowd is kind of 'hidden' within the more popular culture(s). This seems to be more an issue in smaller cities, but still.

Thanks, but I'll pass on being your specimen. It's fucking depressing, why would you be fascinated and want to know more? NOBODY is fascinated or wants to know more about me, what's your angle?

My angle is that I myself struggle with this too. And I've met quite a few people who struggle with similar issues. And 'loneliness' as a more general topic has been a central 'interest' in my life precisely because I know how terrible the feeling is, and because it's perhaps the worst feeling I've had in my life so far.

Anyways, I didn't mean to insult you or treat you like a specimen, so I'm sorry if that's how I came across. I'd honestly love to talk about this more if you're open to it. If so, you can find my email address on my profile.

Again, sorry for upsetting you! I hope things improve for you.

Ugh, I'm sorry, it's just frustrating and I got used to venting.

No worries. And I was serious about emailing me if you feel like it. I'd have killed for a stranger that I could vent to occasionally (although I'm sure I'd not have taken them up on the offer, had they done so).

Have you tried going to local public social events? Have you tried avoiding mentioning your job and just say you work in IT? I'm not saying these will work, just brainstorming ideas. If you figure out the public venues where people with similar interests as you hang out, it might be easier to go and meet them without discussing work.

Yes - for years. It would help if I could find anyone who shared my interests, or if people showed up to recurring events for generic interests like board games or hikes more than once or twice.

There's a big problem with taking a city and shoving a bunch of milquetoast bland new grads in. People hate them, and eventually grow a filter to just ignore them. You'll never convince them that you're any different; it's a waste of time trying.

> It would help if I could find anyone who shared my interests

I think that's the main problem. If you found people who shared your interests, it wouldn't matter what they thought about your job. Assuming there really isn't anyone in your city that shares your interests (or few enough that means finding them is prohibitively difficult), then your only recourse might be to move elsewhere... absent finding new interests, heh.

Yyyyup, I'm coming to the same conclusion. Just gotta wait out some leases, and that'll mean a bit more stock before I split anyways.

Sorry to hear that. Have you tried less conventional meeting places like local church events or book clubs at your public library?

To add to the list: Take an art class. It doesn't matter if you can't draw worth a darn. Just try. Or some other class that interests you.


And then the third class was cancelled for lack of sign-ups.

I have BEEN trying, constantly, and it doesn't matter at all.

Have you tried therapy? Because I moved here as a new grad, I know a bunch of others who moved here as new grads to work at Microsoft and Amazon, and almost none of them have ended up entirely shunned by the city. (Exactly one guy I know describes it the way you do, in fact. And I don't hang out with him because he's really prickly and difficult not to offend.)

Hey, I'm sorry to hear that Seattle is that way for you. I moved to Redmond around a month ago and have had a similar experience - colleagues rather than friends.

I agree that going to art classes, language classes, etc are a good way to meet people - I do wonder if the people there are more likely to want to discuss their passions rather than their jobs (hopefully). Might even be less flaky since it's hopefully activities they find more interesting than work.

If you want someone to talk to in the area, feel free to shoot me an email (throwaway account here).

I had a similar experience in Seattle in 2007-2010. "Seattle Chill" is real. San Francisco is great tho.

This has never happened to me in either dating or friendship (in NYC).

I guess I should have been more specific; I'm talking about cities where programming and tech are the major growing employment markets like SF. NYC is a much more stable and healthy area.

Ah, SF. I live in SF (and am a programmer) and don't see this problem. I think I just don't use work as a focus for conversations with new people. If it comes up (with someone I can reasonably guess isn't in tech), I'll usually just self-deprecatingly say something like "oh, yeah, I'm just another one of those software people", and then move on to another topic. I've never had anyone push me to focus on it and vent their frustrations on "tech people", or even just dismiss me because of my job.

Which city?

Seattle. Abandon hope, all ye who enter.

I knew it was Seattle the instant I read your comment. I consider myself very fortunate to have married before I moved here, because all anecdotes I've heard suggest the dating scene is miserable, doubly so if you're in tech.

There is not a dating scene, as such. There need to be people looking to date for a dating scene.

But I'd be happy with a close friend who was capable of...oh, say talking and rational thought. At some point I want to write, and I dunno, it seems like you need to really understand people to write well. That's not gonna be easy when the only interaction people will afford me without scowling is complementing their dog.

People here aren't even interested in talking about their interests.

50% of the people I dated in Portland moved to Seattle and married Microsoft engineers, so the dating scene is working for somebody <shrug>

Well maybe in Redmond, but it's to the point where I'd probably interpret someone showing any interest in me after hearing about my job as a red flag. That ain't normal, and it's not unique to women.

Figured it was a longshot, I'm on the other coast. I struggled to make friends when I moved away from university too, I'm pretty introverted and don't really like going out to bars/clubs, and frankly don't get along with the same personality type I always seem to meet at local game shops/meetups. I guess I'd suggest cultivating those work friendships, I've personally met some cool friends-of-coworkers who became friends. For instance, I invited a few coworkers hiking last year and they invited some friends, some of whom I connected with. But most of my friends here I met in really strange circumstances without trying at all- like a woman who my roommate shared a lyft with and initially intended to date.

I already knew you were in Seattle from your other comments before I scrolled down to this one.

Just move to New York.

Isn't pot illegal in New York, though? I also want to avoid prison. How's Massachusetts's implementation coming along? I love Boston, Springfield is nice, Cape Cod is amazing if you can afford it...

The penalty for being caught with weed in NYC is a $100 fine.

Huh, not bad; some friends and I got caught on a beach in MA awhile back and it was $125, pretty similar.

Personally I think it's better for social anxiety than alcohol - sativa strains, anyways - but it's not always that easy.

*depending on your race and the borough you get caught in

No... http://norml.org/laws/item/new-york-penalties-2

I mean yes, many cops are corrupt and if you're black and in a poor neighborhood the cops can shoot you for anything, but that doesn't really have to do with marijuana laws specifically.

NYPD is only 53% white, and has a policy of neighborhood patrols. Are you implying that all cops or evil? That only white cops are evil?

Or would it be fair for me to assume that you also think black cops are targeting white citizens for unfair arrests?

Reading your comments was an uncomfortable reminder of my 2.5 years in Portland in tech (and I had family there). I was like, "this is probably Seattle"

same across portland, seattle and vancouver canada. I think it is something to do with the weather, like the "umbrella" effect. Disappears once you go somewhere more sunny. http://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/if-you-weren...

Yeah. I'm probably going back to the East Coast in a year or so.

Not in SV, but so happy my NYC startup has never asked me work outside of 10-6. Good startups exist!

Its very disheartening that Silicon Valley would promote such lifestyles. As a tech worker outside the US, US has always seemed more promising than the rest of the world when it comes to innovations and myriad number of opportunities to realize dreams.

So far I had been whining about how we have really bad inherent work cultures here in Japan. Its a norm for everyone to work overtime : 9am to 10pm is extremely normal. "Hardworking" guys send emails at 2 am and next day when I check my inbox, I'm somewhere burdened if my boss would expect the same of me. Clearly no one here understands that longer hours != more productivity.

If the pioneer locations in the industry were to promote such culture, I wonder if countries like Japan would ever grow out of its current mindset validating their methods even more so.

I work 9-430 most days and it doesn't seem to be hurting the ole paycheck. I'm not buying Maseratis but I am financially independent after around a decade in the valley. Hard work and cleverness and a reasonable helping of luck can get you paid out here, even with regular hours.

"The truth is that much of the extra effort these entrepreneurs and their employees are putting in is pointless anyway. Working beyond 56 hours in a week adds little productivity, according to a 2014 report by the Stanford economist John Pencavel. But the point may be less about productivity than about demonstrating commitment and team spirit."

My main disagreement with this type of quote is how do you account for R&D? You have to try things out, not all of them work out, you throw things away, things don't work out as expected. If you're in a true startup, money is tight, deadlines are agressive, you have to put in the time.

These types of statements discredit the "do or die" moments on which companies are built on.

You need downtime to have a Eureka[1] moment. I see a lot of wasted time spinning wheels on the wrong thing.

My wife's job has offices in a bunch of countries. Recently she was talking to someone they borrowed from Europe for a few weeks. They observed that in the U.S. they work many more hours, but take coffee breaks and intermingle work and leisure. They were suggesting they work fewer hours, but are more focused when at work. It's hard to tell, but I'd say their "output" is comparable (maybe an edge to the team in Europe).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_(word)#Archimedes

My main disagreement with this type of quote is how do you account for R&D? You have to try things out, not all of them work out, you throw things away, things don't work out as expected. If you're in a true startup, money is tight, deadlines are agressive, you have to put in the time.

If you ask me, R&D on a tight budget and timeline is the worst time to be overworked and exhausted, as it renders you less creative, and far more prone to make mistakes.

Obviously it's a cost-benefit curve, but the research shows the benefits don't outweigh the costs beyond about 60 hours per week.

I have never experienced such extreme attitude to work anywhere personally in my 10+ years of experience working in SV, across four different employers, I do, however, hear anecdotes of tough demands at some startups but that does seem all that pervasive either.

I absolutely work too much. I always have and probably always will. I am the first to tell people to have a better work/life balance and to go watch their kids play ball, etc. I enjoy work and always have and thankfully my family understands. That being said, when I go on vacation, I really want to be on vacation. I don't answer email, participate in conference calls, etc. I work hard but when I am off, I am off.

I respect people who say they don't want to work the hours I do, but there are those who enjoy work and spend lots of hours at work. Just because it is not for everybody does not mean that there are not those who choose to spend a great real of time at work.

Rage-porn bunk. As if Vaynerchuk is representative of anything, let alone SV.

Plug: come work for Pivotal. We do 9-6 all day everyday.

I'm not sure I want to work 9-6 everyday. I still like my weekends.

Fair enough, it's only Monday through Friday.

That's 1 hour too long.

9-6 is normal, if you count lunch. It's just 8-5 pushed one hour ahead so you can sleep in.

This varies.

Some places do a 37.5 hour work week, 9-5 with a 30 minute lunch. Others do 9-6 with an hour. There's also no shortage of places (such as my workplace) that do 35 hour work week, 9-5 with 1 hour lunch.

Well, assuming you work for a company that puts much stock in ass-in-seat time (which, lucky for me, I don't).

Pivotal targets a 40-hour work week. If you have to work beyond that you get comp.

IMO I'm only eating lunch there because I have to work there. My lunch time is work time.

Yep, lunch is 12:30 to 1:30 every day.

How is this something to brag about? 9-6 everyday is terrible. That's 55-60 hours a week depending on ones lunch preference. And weekends? No way. Note to self: never work at Pivotal.

It's not bragging, it's just what we do. Lunch is 12:30 to 1:30 every day. Some people may not like, that's totally fine. Also, we only work Monday through Friday. It's not a prison camp for heaven's sake.

If you guys had a home office position for some of the skills I have, I'd definitely have applied.

What are your skills? Some folks work remote.

It runs the gamut but mostly open source languages/frameworks. Just finished my online resume/portfolio this week actually: https://sdegutis.com/

Looks like the kind of experience Pivotal likes. For what it's worth there's a Labs office in the Merchandise Mart. You can always try to apply and explain what you're looking for. I know they've hired a few people who work from home most of the time.

You won't be able to do 100% remote though.

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