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Legacy extensions disabled by default on Firefox Nightly 57 starting August 11 (mail.mozilla.org)
57 points by ronjouch on Aug 10, 2017 | hide | past | favorite | 63 comments



I just finished porting an extension from the Jetpack API to the WebExtension API. It's not that bad. I only had to file two bug reports, and I only had to write one line of workaround code. This is far better than the first years of Jetpack. Jetpack didn't work right until about three years after release. AMO finally seems to be getting their act together.

The big problems are with really old extensions that used the antiquated XUL format. That's been on the way out for six or seven years, and it never worked on Firefox Mobile ("Fennec"). It's not like this was a surprise.


Thank you. We hear a lot of complaining about people not having problems, but wanting to predict there will be.

It's refreshing to have the perspective of somebody who actually had the problem.

Also, the stance of the ublock origin maintainer on this:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14973424

He clearly states why FF is NOT becoming a chrome clone as everyone says.


Here are the issues I ran into:

- In Webextensions, retrieving something from local storage is an async operation. In Jetpack, it was a sync operation. This has the potential to create race conditions if you're updating a cache. It's OK in my application, because a double update is harmless.

- Webextensions, by default, will run in incognito mode. That's because the "incognito" key in manifest.json doesn't support "not allowed" yet. ([1], table "Browser compatibility") That should have been both supported and the default, as it was in Jetpack, because it's a form of permission. Requires a one line workaround.

- The use of "id" requires a better explanation. When upgrading, you have to use the same ID your previous non-Webextension used, even though that ID ends with "jetpack". The documentation doesn't indicate anything like that. But the AMO uploader detects this and gives a good error message.

The new development and debugging environment on desktop is nice. The add-on worked the first time on Android, so I didn't have to use the more difficult environment for mobile debugging.

[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Add-ons/WebExtensions/ma...


Insteresting.


Can someone please post any information on what this means for TreeStyleTabs? Will it stop working? Have they managed to work with Mozilla to build enough hooks to keep it working with the new restrictions? Thanks.


It will stop working in Firefox Nightly tomorrow. It will continue working in normal Firefox until November, and in Firefox ESR until June next year.

Tree Style Tabs itself will need to be redeveloped, but the necessary APIs are more or less available, and there are already similar add-ons that work in Firefox 57:

- Tree Tabs: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-tabs/

- Tab Center Redux: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/tab-center-re...

The most significant missing feature is the ability to hide the native, horizontal tab strip. That's being tracked in https://bugzil.la/1332447.


You can block it by changing userChrome.css


https://github.com/piroor/treestyletab/issues/1224

At the beginning of this thread, the main dev states interest in migrating to WebExtensions, then cites all the bugs that prevent that. Towards the end of the thread, an extension dev (`nt1m`) states that the APIs have been approved, and simply need implementation in Firefox. There's definitely a chance they won't make it into 57, but the rapid-release cycle will help them land in a release not too long after 57.

If TST is essential to your workflow, you may wish to consider using 52 ESR until these APIs are finished in mainline, or contribute implementations of the APIs (time permitting, of course).


https://xkcd.com/1172/

Although, I'm on ESR for now, mostly because my company admins cba to patch and enable java web start instead of java plugin for OEBS. Until recently it was stuck on java 1.6. They enabled recent java versions just a few month ago, so I guess I'm stuck with ESR for now.


I understand the reasoning behind the decision and Mozilla did the decent thing by announcing it early enough to give plenty of time for developers, I just hope this doesn't have too negative an impact on their user numbers.

The browser situation at the moment is pretty dire.


I'm excited about Firefox 57. I've been trying out Vivaldi this year. It's been faster, but there are many features I miss from Firefox.

It looks like uBlock works with the new API, and there are Tree Style Tab replacements until TST gets the API changes it needs as well.


This is going to hurt firefox badly. Many extensions authors don't maintain their extensions or find the migration to webextensions too hard(with lack of some equivalent apis). Firefox remaining userbase depends on these extensions. The questionable allocation of time and resources in recent years towards irrelevant (to wider userbase) side projects make it seem firefox will lose the "second place" in market share. With a marketshare below 3% sites will start ignoring it in favor of Chrome monoculture and subservience to Google.


> This is going to hurt firefox badly.

Speculation. I have only one extension I miss from the transition (lazarus), and I use tons of them. Most extensions of crap. Most important ones will be ported. I only see people going crazy over it in the tech saavy-complaining-experts crowd like HN comments.

> Firefox remaining userbase depends on these extensions.

I install Firefox on 20 to 30 machines every years. Most people just want ad block. Sometime last pass. The rest a rounding errors.

> With a marketshare below 3% sites will start ignoring it in favor of Chrome monoculture and subservience to Google.

3 %. LOL. You are one those dooms day persons right ?


http://gs.statcounter.com/ Browser Market Share Worldwide Browsers Percentage Market Share July 2017 Chrome 54.27% Safari 14.17% UC Browser 8.59% Firefox 5.72% Opera 3.99% IE 3.73%


Still 30% on my porn websites. Hum, who do i trust, some people making money with stats or my trafic composed of the less tech saavy user ever ?


Those could just be video-scraping bots with a Firefox UA


FWIW I've switched back to Firefox from Opera/Chrome because of FF 57. The speed improvements made in 55 and 56 are simply mind-blowing, and I'm sure this will continue improving in the following versions as well. I'm running Nightly without any issue. And there's that feel-good vibe of supporting a positive actor of the internet, which is always a nice feeling :)


Firefox permanently breaking Pentadactyl is one of its biggest disappointments. I really hope some other extension steps in to take its place, but from what I've read that's deliberately not possible anymore, as what Pentadactyl does is too powerful, and Firefox has deliberately chosen to reduce the power extensions have to overhaul how it works.


I've been using Firefox for so long it was called phoenix at the time. I used a LOT of extensions, take part of the testing of unstable versions and test pilots and everything.

I've never heard of Pentadactyl to this day.

So my guess you are a small user base, and Mozilla can safely accept to loose you.

You can't satisfy everybody.

What everybody want's right now is a faster browser. That's the main requested feature. That what's everyone agree on.

The new extension model is an important step to do that. There is no way around it. XUL extensions drag the browser down.

So if in order to satisfy most user FF has to let you down, it makes sense. It's sad. I understand your frustration. But it's the logical choice.


> What everybody want's right now is a faster browser. That's the main requested feature. That what's everyone agree on.

Talk for yourself, not on everyone's behalf

> I've been using Firefox for so long it was called phoenix at the time. I used a LOT of extensions, take part of the testing of unstable versions and test pilots and everything. I've never heard of Pentadactyl to this day.

Not a surprise. It's not like you have to memorize list of all extensions before using "unstable versions and test pilots and everything."

> So my guess you are a small user base, and Mozilla can safely accept to loose you.

Thanks for reminding us your use case is the only one that matters end everybody else is expendable.


> I've never heard of Pentadactyl to this day.

You might have heard of Vimperator though, which Pentadactyl is a fork of. According to AMO, Vimperator has a lot more users and I guess the same implementation issues apply to it with regard to WebExtensions.


Perhaps that belongs not as an extension, but as a fork?


I'd recommend Qutebrowser as a replacement: https://qutebrowser.org/

I switched over from Pentadactyl to Qutebrowser last year and it's way snappier. And with the experimental WebEngine backend, I haven't run into any rendering or performance issues at all. It also has a vertical tab mode, although it isn't possible to have sub-tabs like Tree Style Tabs.


I'm going with luakit or qutebrowser when I feel I can't continue using firefox 50 that I have on update freeze. Those projects are so promising and can't say I dislike the idea of having a hackable browser on my fingertips. I'm planning to keep Vivaldi as my secondary browser for multimedia and other similar needs.


I wonder if we'll see an increase in the number of out of date/vulnerable Firefox instances after a while


A bit OT: If i want to propose a webextension, what is the correct procedure, it seem i do have to open a bug in bugzilla, but in the documentation i did not find the instruction on how to open a feature request, only bugreport.

I read this document: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/QA/Bug_writ...

Does anybody have some suggestion on how to open a feature request for a webextension, it is better to first hop on an irc channel and ask there?


If you simply want to request a WebExtensions API [1], please file a bug. These will be triaged and processed in a bi-weekly public meeting [2].

[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Toolkit&c... [2] https://wiki.mozilla.org/Add-ons/Contribute/Triage


In my experience, Mozilla IRC has always been quite friendly and helpful. I'd start with the #addons or #introduction channel.


Is NoScript expected to be ported over to the WebExtension API? I know there were numerous bugzilla tickets tracking its feasibility, but not sure what's the final verdict and expectation?


Yes. There was a recent blog post about it: https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/08/01/noscripts-migrati...


Thanks!


Really hoping that Mozilla reconsiders: https://www.change.org/p/mozilla-save-mozilla-firefox-s-best....

The full-stop disabling of legacy extensions will absolutely wreck my current workflow (Tab Groups, Vertical Tabs, Tile Tabs, etc.), to the point where I may need to explore alternatives. I don't like that thought, but I also don't see Mozilla giving power users like me much choice.


Tab groups is possible with the WebEx system, Vertical Tabs might work, but yeah Tile Tabs is probably out.

I'm kind of in the same boat as you. Vimperator is how is how I use my browser. Vimperator is pretty amazing in terms of functionality, but is also a good illustration why the WebEx migration is needed.

Vimperator can reload every tab every 10 seconds, create a temp buffer and open it in vim for textareas, control other extensions, modify headers or content of the HTML, control the chrome, and so on. From a developer or security standpoint having a plugin that can do this is insane.

That being said, I don't know what I'm going to do when the legacy stuff is fully deprecated. The plugins I use have become so involved in my workflow that I can't really picture Foxfire without them.


Then disable it by default. Don't show non-WebEx addons in the mozilla website. If a user tries to enable it, put up a big red warning sign saying how dangerous it is and a checkbox saying "I understand". But in the end, let the users do what they want.

This way 99% of the users will never use unsafe addons, the 99% who won't even miss them. But power user who understand and want to, let them ultimately have the freedom to do "stupid" things (what you consider as stupid).


The underlying XUL machinery that XUL-type add-ons access is going away. It's never been there in mobile Firefox. That's why they have to go.

Whether Firefox add-ons should be restricted to what Google Chrome supports is another issue.


> Whether Firefox add-ons should be restricted to what Google Chrome supports is another issue.

It's not, though. See: https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/support-ublock-origin/6746/4...


This is not a security question, but a performance and safety question.

Many of the major performance improvements in Chrome were possible because the extensions were decoupled from the browser itself. If Firefox ever wants to improve its performance, it can not keep running XUL extensions anymore.


Tile Tabs is available as a WebExtension: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tile-tabs-we/


> From a developer or security standpoint having a plugin that can do this is insane.

Where do you see the security implications, i.e. what is the threat model here?


They won't. This is a necessary move in the Quantum push. Can't expose the browser's internal API (like XUL extensions) and put it through a big refactor.



I do, but what to do when ESR hits version 57?


You can start now by filing issues with your favorite extensions, trying to see if WebExtensions is on their radar. If so, they'll lobby Mozilla's WebExtensions group to get the missing features implemented.


Reconsidering will not happen. You have a variety of options, as a power user of indeterminate nature:

0) Accept the loss, grieve, then move on to 57+. 1) Use ESR until 57+ becomes ESR someday. 2) Fork Firefox, rebasing your patch onto upstream. 3) Write a WebExtension, requesting APIs if necessary. 4) Stop updating Firefox, surf the web unsafely.

As a power user, each of these is within your theoretical capabilities. I cannot predict which is the appropriate tradeoff, though.


Seconding Tile Tabs, would be a major advantage of FF if they made it a first-class native feature, and would be far more used than 'WebVR' will ever be. The WebExtension 'version' is really a tiling window manager within the browser and not the same animal at all.


[flagged]


You seem to have copied much of my earlier comment verbatim from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14983976

Also, the Tab Groups add-on you've linked still uses legacy APIs, and will not work as-is in Firefox 57, though we're actively trying to design an API that will allow it to work in 57 and beyond.


I understand why FF is moving this direction, and I actually think they should. But they should have a plan of action for people who want extensions's that flat-out won't work with the new system. By just telling people "lol no", they are really going to get some backlash, and Mozilla absolutely deserves it.

It's frustrating to see the only browser that cares throwing their user's concerns to the wind like that.


That's what we've all been using for the last year. Legacy extensions were marked as "legacy," and no one cared. They're tagged as "deprecated", and "incompatible with Firefox <57", and still no one cares. Developers are only now switching because the deadline is fast approaching. That's just human nature, unfortunately.

Though I kind of wish Mozilla had gone all the way to labeling them "for fucks sake stahp"


But from what I've read, that's not the case. There are some extensions that can't be upgraded, like vimperator.

I'd love to be wrong on that though


They continue to work in Developer Mode, just FYI.


But isn't that going away eventually?

> We will continue to honor this preference in Nightly builds and in unbranded builds, but when 57 (and later versions) go to beta and eventually to release, that preference will be ignored.

Unless I'm mis-understanding that?

Additionally, aren't they are removing access to a lot of the internals even for legacy addons as well?


Possibly a slight misunderstanding.

Nightly and unbranded builds will always respect that preference. Stable versions, starting with 57 will ignore it.


Then maybe I'm missing something. I've set here: extensions.allow-non-mpc-extensions to true as per https://wiki.mozilla.org/Add-ons/ShimsNightly

But when I go to https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/vimperator/, It wont let me install and it says "This add-on is not compatible with your version of Firefox"

Edit: Disabling JS allowed me to download it. It's not working yet, but I haven't had time to troubleshoot.


Anyone know how Firefox upgrades can be disabled on an Ubuntu system?


Please do not do that. Browsers have a massive attack surface, and you absolutely want to ensure that you're up to date with security patches.

If you want to slow down the rate of UI / UX / product changes, consider trying Firefox ESR: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/


You can mitigate the security concerns through other sandboxing techniques (e.g. Qubes, VMs). It's not like up-to-date Firefox is really that secure either.

Web developers stand the most to lose from people opting to run old browsers. Back in the IE6 days, it was justified, but by now, web APIs are already about as powerful as they're going to get, and we're reaching (or are long past) the point of decadence, churn, and bloat.

If you want to run old Firefox, take reasonable precautions, and you'll be fine.

Edit: down to -4. FWIW you can also securely run IE6 or literal malware.


The internet could really use a non-profit lobbying for the _open_ web.

We already have actors locking browsers down for (according to party line) the user's own good. Yet it seems Firefox is on the path to becoming Chrome, and not even extensions functionality will be a differentiation point. So what even is the "why" of Firefox?


I don't understand your comment.

Firefox is transitioning to an extensions model that is cross-browser and defined as a W3C draft. Their old extensions were Firefox-specific and could not be used by anyone else. This change seems very much in spirit with the open web.


It's not about Firefox-only vs standard, but about control.

When your extension does not or cannot work anymore due to lockout by browser consortium agreement, the control isn't with the user or the developer -- it's with the browser vendor. It kind of defeats the essence of extensions in the first place, which started out as a technique to give users and developers power over their user agents, and that's being reversed.

If what your user agent can do is dictated entirely by a consensus of a small number of browser vendors, the web becomes less open. Neither users nor developers wanted this.


> Neither users nor developers wanted this.

That's a very broad statement to make, and I don't think you're in a position to say something like that.

For any extension that can be written with WebEx, this move is unambiguously a good thing. The developer can now just write their extension once and deploy it to multiple browsers. And for their users this is also a good thing, not just because reducing maintenance burden on the developer is more likely to lead to faster development, but also because AIUI WebEx has a much better permissions model than the old extensions.

The only real problem is the subset of extensions that cannot be rewritten with WebEx. Losing these extensions sucks, to be sure, but it's a tradeoff. You just can't claim that this move is strictly negative.


> Yet it seems Firefox is on the path to becoming Chrome,

Definitly not:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14973424

And given the last experiments in test pilots such as tab containers and snapshots, I can say they are still trying very hard to innovate. Personally, I LOVE the containers.

But just the fact they are creating rust to stay at the top of the line is proof enough they still got it.


These are unsafe. Very sensible default.


Fuck this.

Sorry, but that about sums it up, for me.

Firefox's extensions are a good part of what has kept the browser "the client", for me -- as in, software that works on the client's behalf as well as being the requesting functionality in the interaction.

I have no interest in moving to a client who is, more or less, working for the other end. Already had that in the past with Microsoft, and seem to be experiencing it again, more and more, with Google. No thanks.




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