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Edit: I don't care about karma on HN but if you're downvoting please explain yourself.

  > The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need
  > them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats.
Citation ? (not about the corruption happening, that has been well established, but about aadhaar allegedly solving this problem).

  > Having a real identification gives very poor individuals the identification
  > necessary to open bank accounts and interact with the financial sector.
There already are a pletora of identification methods in India, including the PAN, ration card, BPL Card, Voter ID etc. In the end the problems that keep it from being 'unique' are in the implementation at the grass roots. How is Aadhaar going to change this ? There already are a lot of reports of duplication of Aadhaar.

  > It's the first really reliable census data for a lot of areas.
Reliable ? Oh really ? According to the goverment's own addmission :

http://aadhaarcarduid.org/uidai-cancelled-3-8-lakh-fake-aadh...

  > It's disgusting that Mozilla sits there and pontificates about stopping
  > programs which solve problems _they don't have_. In 50 years, when a couple
  > hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because
  > their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this
  > conversation. Until then, shut up and and let India solve its own problems,
  > and don't help people starve to death on account of your pompous moral
  > litmus tests.
Firstly, the Indian goverment is not even interested in debating or engaing people who have a different viewpoint than them, including the Superme Court of India. So, tell me again, which is this India you speak about that is allegedly soloving its problems ? I feel like Indians like me are lesser Indians than thos that toe the Goverment line.

I often think about this when it comes to Indians reacting to critizims about India:

Except from the book "Restart"[1]

  > Then the denial, the one form of intellectual argument we have mastered.
  > India has no problem; if it has a problem, it is nobody else’s business;
  > everybody else also has this problem; everybody else has other problems, why
  > don’t you talk about those instead; why are you saying this is a problem, it is
  > a part of our 5000-year- old culture; we knew the answers to all problems in
  > the Vedic era; even if we have this problem, it is not our fault; even if we
  > have this problem, we cannot accept any of the solutions that have been shown
  > to work elsewhere; even if we have this problem, it is much better than it was;
  > perhaps we have this problem, but it is none of your business.
...and this book is not even about sociology or politics, it is about economics.

http://www.amazon.in/Restart-Last-Chance-Indian-Economy/dp/8...




> Edit: I don't care about karma on HN but if you're downvoting please explain yourself.

Please don't break the HN guidelines by going on about downvotes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14431021 and marked it off-topic.


Not that it matters a whole lot but you made two mistakes:

a. You said going on about downvotes, whereas I mentioned it only once, and you probably didn't bother to check whether the only other reference of the same kind was not made by me.

b. My actual comment and the replies I received (iow, the thread) were not off-topic if you had bothered to read them.


"Going on about downvotes" means complaining about them or otherwise making them a topic of discussion here, which is always tedious and always off-topic.

Comments that break the site guidelines in this way cross into offtopicness regardless of how relevantly they began.


I'm not Indian, I'm a white middle class American.


Ok, but since appear to have such a strong opinion on the subject, perhaps you could also address the questions I've asked ?


I will give you a free advice:

Most Aadhar criticism comes from and is supported by

People who have lost money due to due to direct benefit scheme.

Those people accumulated lots of money over years by producing fake bills, extra names in the ration cards.

Aadhar card started to roll out in 2011 itself, How many of these privacy freaks had raise the voice and if they did, were they supported ?

No.

Only after Aadhar started saving money for the poor, hence the money started drying out of pockets of those corrupt officials and contractors, does this activism against Aadhar has been supported.

Who are those people who were OK with Aadhar for 4 years, but are not OK now?

Now that Aadhar will be used for some more direct to benefit transfer scmehes, will you see more activists and more noise.

Think.

I will give you a hint.

How do you think does a 9 to 5 government employee is able to accommodate wealth to send his son to one of ivy leavgue schools or enroll him in a music class or send him to costly coaching classes or send him to top schools.

Where did that money came form?

Won't those sons oppose Aadhar whose dads tool bribe to accumulate wealth to make sure the son gets educated/skilled.

A lot of people thrive and plan their yearly budget based on bribe amount not salary amount?

Would not those people oppose Aadhar?


1.I don't get any subsidies 2. I don't earn as I am a student so no tax evasion possible 3. My father is in the army and mother is a school teacher so no scope of benefiting from corruption

I still don't support Aadhar. Neither am I convinced. Neither am I appreciative of the arrogance of UIDAI and iSpirt team. UIDAI's claims of subsidy savings have been blown away by the CAG. The aadhar critics argue in data while aadhar supporters use hypebole and try to appeal to emotions.


I said this a bit differently in another comment but I'll ask you this - would you still support Aadhaar if the party in power was not the Bjp? Remember that the party in power will inevitably change at some point but this project will remain. Would you be able to trust any party besides the Bjp with being in charge of this project? If you would, well I won't argue with you, if not you really have to think about the implications of what is happening.


FYI : I will welcome all those scheme which dry out the bribe money from the corrupt government service officials.

I will also welcome all methods which

- eliminate the middleman

- reduce the sense of entitlement from government officials

- abolish the need of standing in queues of people to pay bribe

- financially drain out all those government officials who plan their expenses based on bribe estimate not their actual salary

Aadhar's direct benefit scheme has actually done it.


I too support all initiatives you list but not at the risk of handing away by identity for potential abuse. You have to understand that most Aadhaar critics are not anti-national or corrupt, in fact quite the opposite they do not want to become (even more) vulnerable to the 'big players ' in the hierarchy of corruption in India.


Again, I have never mentioned bjp in any place where I mentioned the government.

Did I?

You are just assuming.


Ok re-read the comment substituting Bjp with party currently in power and think about the question.

My entire point was Aadhaar is dangerous in its current form irrespective of the government backing it. As for your dismissive comments on why not many people complained earlier (which is a bit dishonest to claim btw, there were quite a few who did, including the current PM and other politicians from the BJP, fwiw), the reason possibly was because it wasn't being forced down everyone's throat like it is now.




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