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Decommission of Cyrus Email (cmu.edu)
144 points by Jerry2 194 days ago | hide | past | web | 112 comments | favorite



Cyrus development will not be affected by this. While CMU has been running Cyrus, and employing one of the key developers, FastMail has a team dedicated to supporting the biggest open source project that we use. We have a new developer starting on Wednesday next week as well as Ken from CMU who has agreed to keep working on Cyrus as a FastMail employee and representing the project at conferences.

We are committed to improving the project and keeping it open. As a member of the Cyrus IMAP board, I'm very proud of the 3.0 release that we recently made, and we're currently planning for the 3.1 release which will include further significant improvements.


That's great news. We've been considering migrating to Cyrus instead of Dovecot in Virtualmin default installs, as Cyrus seems much closer to JMAP support and we're planning a rebuild of our webmail to use JMAP.

I often worry about infrastructure projects like IMAP, SMTP, DNS, SSH, OpenSSL, etc. They often have very small teams, mostly volunteers, and the implications of a bug, particularly a security bug, can be catastrophic. And, if something we rely on were to be abandoned, we'd probably be screwed; even in cases where we have the technical ability in-house to maintain another major project, we don't have the time (or the budget to add more people to our small team).


This worry is why we try to keep in-house expertise for our key tools. That's what got me hacking on Cyrus about 8 years ago to fix some problems we had - and look at us now!


As usual, FastMail is a hero of the people. It's sad to see the big clouds swallowing more sites. Much happier with you guys.


I was concerned about what it might mean for Kolab, so I'm glad to hear you're keeping it alive.

Though admittedly I'm inclined to move the customer I have using it to Office365 hosted Exchange since they recently decided (against advice) that it was Very Important that their users start using Outlook which has meant a shift to local PST files.


Yeah, Outlook is happier speaking its native protocol than IMAP unfortunately, and we haven't had much luck getting Microsoft to engage on JMAP, so I expect we'll still have two ecosystems even if JMAP takes off - just the open ecosystem will be more competitive.


The university that I work at switched over to Gmail and its been a big step back in terms of user experience. We canned a small team of dedicated professionals that delivered a rock solid experience for a 'free' option from Google. And since its IMAP implementation is half-assed at best and their web product is also super difficult for older people (and don't even get me started on disabled users-Gmail is completely inaccessible for them) our support requests have skyrocketed and we've got people constantly whining. So we've replaced 5 guys with a data mining product and support costs that would easily cover their salaries. A real net gain.


I switch my family email from google apps to fastmail because I got sick of the support calls every time google changed the UI, which seemed to be monthly. Fastmail has been rock solid and lives up to its name.

The spam filtering isn't as good, but Google's false positive rate is atrocious


Fastmail isn't free anymore though, it's $30 or more per year.


Fastmail is focused on providing a good mail experience, which is worth paying for.


https://blog.fastmail.com/2016/12/13/fastmails-values/ we're really unashamed about charging money.

It means we don't have to spend time working out how to trick you out of money, or convince somebody else to give us money in order to hire our staff. I did an all-staff presentation last week at our quarterly meeting - by far the majority of the money coming from our customers goes directly to paying our staff. Hiring good people costs money, and running a good system requires good people!


I fundamentally believe my email service is worth more to me than a Netflix subscription. It's the most important service I use, why wouldn't I pay for a good one?


Neither is G Suite, and it starts closer to $50 per year.


Good products cost money.


If "cost money" means that the user pays for the product ... I didn't pay for my Linux desktop, I think it's pretty good. :)

But I do pay for my Fastmail service. :) :)


In your experience, which disabled users have such severe problems with Gmail? I know lots of blind people who use Gmail without any problem.


I do tech support for seniors, and constant rearrangement of the UI is a massive pain point. A lot of these people were good with the unchanging state of AOL for the last ten years.

Honestly, blind users might have a better time because they don't have Google's UI nightmare in the way. I'm willing to bet their accessibility features are way more stable.


You cannot simultaneously please people who want new things and people who want nothing to change.


You actually can - you form a standards body around a protocol, good libraries for talking to it, and convince other people to build against it. GMail doesn't map very well to IMAP, and actually managed to pretty much kill personal email clients, when it could've been the best-of-breed implementation of a new standard for everything it does. People who want a more conservative ui can have one, and people who want to put up with gmail can do that.


This is trivial to do, actually, by having a "legacy UI mode" option. Even have several of those.


maintaining multiple legacy UIs is not trivial unfortunately

(hence the other comment further down this tree about having good protocols... I think that's the real way to solve people wanting unchanging UIs. Protocols change much more slowly than individual products)


At a much smaller scale I have experienced similar situations in the past when I was very briefly a phb. I learned to ask questions like the following and answer them with hard data. Sometimes changed minds.

How many users in total are you supporting?

What number of incidents do you see in a week/month?

How many extra help desk people have you had to employ/redeploy?

Whose budget do the extra support costs come from?


That's pretty much exactly what happened at UT Austin, in the Central IT Services department.


Yeah, universities are getting squeezed from every direction. Its bullshit-we've gone from being a research university to being basically another corporation. We still have some old firebrands lurking in the corners (which reminds me of 1984-how the old revolutionaries are pushed to the edges and coffee shops and have all their fangs pulled as soon as the revolution is over).


It's really disappointing that nothing better than gmail has come along.

There _are_ open source alternatives, but they aren't as good, that's all there is to it. Setting up a mail server is hard, not because it needs to be but because the software requires eldritch incantations to make it work properly (there are too many things to keep track of in order to A) get email delivered at all and B) not become a spam relay)

It's possible to be something in between the "Just Works" walled garden that gives you no options or control and the archaic wizardry which requires a 2 foot grey beard to understand.


For me, the killer feature of Gmail that's hard to compete with is spam filtering.

I remember when people thought spam was single handedly going to make email unusable.


On the other side of that, sending mail to gmail can be rather challenging. They have a tendency of 541-ing mails for no apparent reason, under the pretense of "poor mail server reputation".

Basically you don't control who gets to send you mails. You're entirely at Google's uncompromising and unreachable mercy.


If you run DKIM, SPF, and DMARC, you shouldn't have any delivery problems.

DKIM is signing your email with the public key in DNS.

SPF is whitelisting which mail servers send mail from your domain

DMARC is how receiving ends should report how your mail is delivered (or not).

Unless you're actively spamming (ahem, "marketing") to large volumes of users, you should have no trouble at all getting mail delivered to users.

If you are doing mass email marketing, stick with your core competence and let someone else handle the mail servers.


You shouldn't have any problems. But you do.

After fifteen years running my own mail systems, I have finally given up. Ever more outgoing mail was getting lost, despite everything being up to date and done by the book. The arch villains, over and over, were Gmail and the MS thing - Hotmail, outlook.com, Live, whatever they call it.


> After fifteen years running my own mail systems, I have finally given up.

Same here. I've been hosting my own e-mail for two decades (as of this year) and I gave up earlier this year. My spouse's e-mail to friends who use GMail--something like 80% of them--would, every couple of months, disappear into the recipient's spam folder or sometimes just disappear entirely. My logs would show a successful delivery but the recipient couldn't find the message anywhere. Occasionally messages would start going into junk in the middle of a conversation.

Nothing I changed would permanently fix it. I'd send from a different IP in my block (something.something.194 instead of something.something.193) and mail would flow again...for a couple of months and then stop. My domain registration predates Google's existence by 18 months. I've been sending from the same IP subnet for six years. My colo provider is actually so small that I'm the only customer left on my "neighborhood" /24 (they've recently asked me if I want the entire block routed to me for the lulz). I have SPF, DKIM, and DMARC all set up and they've not changed for at least two years. The amount of mail outbound from my server is (was?) so little that I could tail the outbound mail log and keep up with each message being sent.

None of that mattered. I even signed up for Google's Postmaster Tools but, and this really cooked my goose, I send so little e-mail that I don't qualify to show up on their reports. I tried contacting Google but hahahahahahahahahahahaha--wheeze--hahahahahahahaha.

No other recipient had a problem with me. Messages were successfully delivered to Microsoft and Yahoo just fine. Only Google had a problem with my e-mail.

I finally caved. Google has SO MUCH of the e-mail market that unreachability to them is a catastrophe...and they know it. I don't have the leverage to make them play nice.

Thankfully, Fastmail does so I've changed to them. For the first time since February 1997 my MX doesn't point to my own server and that makes me a little sad.


My experience exactly, though I didn't bother to spell it out in detail. Also the final move to Fastmail, who, it must be said, serves me nicely and well.


Yep, if it weren't for Fastmail I'd still be hosting my own e-mail and just quietly cursing the existence of Gmail. Now I get to have high significant other acceptance factor and curse the existence of Gmail.


If you're not careful with how you do those things, though, then you'll be unable to send mail through quite a bit of standard mailing list software. It's possible to configure some (not all) of those in a way that allows mailing lists to work, but some of them are just completely incompatible.


True. When it comes down to it, I'm on the side that says mailman is doing wrong when it modifies messages breaking their signatures.

Here's some background https://wiki.list.org/DEV/DKIM


The people who designed DKIM didn't care about how mailing lists worked, they just did it anyway. But Mailman has adapted over the years, and Mailman3 is greatly improved. IMO, it's the best mailing list package out there, especially with regards to DKIM and DMARC compliance, but only if it is configured correctly.

However, even that can only carry you so far. Gmail is screwed up in how they handle reputation, especially with regard to IPv6. The exact same message delivered to Gmail via IPv6 will get refused versus sending it via IPv4 will work fine.

This problem has existed for years. There are even standard hacks for postfix to cause all mail addressed to Gmail to be sent via IPv4 only, just to avoid this problem.

And any domain hosted with GAFYD is likewise screwed.

You can't know what your false positive stats are, because you don't have access to all the remote SMTP spools or logs on the 'net. All you can know for sure is the false positives that you find out about. But you literally have no way to tell how big the iceberg is under the water.


> But you literally have no way to tell how big the iceberg is under the water.

Aren't DMARC reports supposed to tell you that, especially ruf?


I've found DMARC reports to be incomplete or flat out lies from time to time.


I'm not a big fan of mailing list software that modifies the non-header parts of messages. But, for instance, some of the signature schemes utterly break the ability of a mailing list to send mails on to the rest of the list members while preserving all the headers.


Is this bulk mail? (I'm not implying spam - transactional or opt-in)

I only ask because I don't recall any problems over the years with one to one emails either to my gmail or from me to other people's gmail accounts.


AOL and Yahoo and a bunch of other providers used to be tough as well. I don't think there is much benefit to being _less_ scrutinizing when your user base is mostly consumers.


> They have a tendency of 541-ing mails for no apparent reason

There is a reason. It makes people switch from own email servers to gmail.


Spam filtering is the "killing" features for my Gmail use. It traps way too much legitimate e-mail for me, to the point where I know I need to move off Gmail, it's just a matter of finding the time - I can't trust it any more.


That's really curious - my false-positive rate is really low (I do review my spam folder) and often arguably correct (e.g. legit senders who've hosed their SPF settings).

Do you have an idea what's triggering the false positives – keywords, IP reputation, etc?


I see a wide variety. E.g. anything that can generate bursts of mails, such as alerting tends to regularly end up in the spam folder and that's particularly problematic. And it keeps happening even though the sending addresses is in my contact list and I've repeatedly pressed "not spam". Newsletters I've signed up to and where they keep ending up in the spam folder despite me repeatly pressing "not spam". Personal, individual e-mail messages sent from Gmail by freinds. I've even had messages generated by Google get caught by the spam filters, including idiotically enough moderation reports from Google groups.

The overall rate relative to my total e-mail volume is quite low, but it's enough that I have to check far more often than I'd like.

It wouldn't be a problem if I had a reliable way of whitelisting addresses, but none of the methods seems to be consistently reliable.


I moved to FastMail lately and was pleased to discover that you could have some control over the spam filter[0], as well as useful advice:

    Note: We recommend that you do not mark your Spam/Junk Mail folder to
    automatically learn "As spam". This can create a false positive feedback loop.
    Imagine an email is incorrectly classified as spam, put in your Spam/Junk Mail
    folder, and then learned as spam. That means future emails that aren't spam are
    now more likely to be incorrectly marked as spam, sent to your Spam/Junk Mail
    folder, and learned as spam. Only mark folders to learn "As spam" if they're
    folders you manually move email to.
Now on top of that say you're using a MUA and its own spam filter runs atop of that, and decides to move a couple of legit stuff to Gmail's spam folder, triggering the server-side spam learning process. Surefire way to screw the whole thing up (happened).

[0]: https://www.fastmail.com/help/receive/stopspam.html?u=b83140...


Interesting - do you use the priority inbox feature? I have an extremely low false-positive rate for things like newsletters but do have some other things incorrectly marked as Promotions.

I've found the never mark as spam filter option to be reliable – amusingly I've also had the problem with Gmail flagging the Google Groups spam reports as spam, and this halted that.


Same experience here, I've lost important mails that cost me money and because of that I've periodically been checking my spam folder - which is a real pain since the spam-folder isn't synced to my external mail client.

So I have to constantly login to their site only to check the spam-folder (talk about convenience). I've setup rules to try to do my best to NEVER send anything to the spam folder but even with catch-all rules gmail still think they know better than me.

Their support for real (external) mail clients is also quite bad, I don't see why so many people in tech use gmail.


For me, the killing feature is search. I'm used to being able to pull, say, the details of some order that I've made two years ago, based on a couple keywords that I vaguely remember.


That's not exclusive to Google Mail. I have never noticed any regression in search since switching to Fastmail.


It used to be that their search worked a lot better - but I've been using them since they were invite-only (I think it was 2004?), and haven't really looked much at other alternatives.

One other thing that I kinda sorta like in GMail is labels (as opposed to folders). As I understand, it's not a popular feature, because there's no reliable way to map it to IMAP? So anything that assumes that IMAP (rather than a custom client or web app) will be used as a mail reader, will probably only provide folders.


What's weird is IMAP has keywords, but they can't be used exactly like labels, no idea why IMAP hasn't been extended to include labels, seems rather easy.


The hardest bit when building a client is that keywords are per-folder, so unless you store all the email in a single folder server-side, you have to run the keyword search in every folder, every time, and you can't get updates to multiple folders at once, so you have to re-run that search frequently, which hammers servers pretty hard.


Huh, I've been extensively using custom IMAP flags/labels with Opera M2. It worked great.


Opera is the only non-web client that I know of that has labels. But how does it actually represent them on IMAP level? And what happens when you view the same mailbox using another client?


Well we did get the flipside of that, which is that there really aren't many good open platforms where you can send digital communication that you can be sure will reliably reach someone, except for maybe SMS.


SMS has the two faced downsides of being more expensive to use in large quantities than email alongside being highly regulated making it easy to prosecute those who choose to spam.


Spam filtering is the killer feature for a lot of people. I'm using Rackspace hosted email on a paid basis at the moment. Any spammer that wants to can bypass the spam and manual filtering just by using UTF8 encoding on most of the message. It's been an open bug in the product for 2 years now and will likely never be fixed.


> For me, the killer feature of Gmail that's hard to compete with is spam filtering.

I have absolutely no problem with Fastmail's spam filtering. Maybe Gmail changed things since I switched, around 3-4 years ago, but with both, I used to get 0-1 spam emails per month, though I haven't gotten any on FM in the last few months.


Spam filtering seems to be pretty solved if you're beyond the single user level. I the thing I'd value more is malware filtering in attachments.


One of the simplest things to do in software land is cloning an existing application, all the design work has pretty much been done for you and there is legal precedent even supporting direct rips of the look and feel of a UI (see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Development_Corp._v._Bor.... ).

While it would be quite straightforward to clone an almost pixel-perfect version of Gmail, there is something in hacker culture that makes this kind of project unattractive. I don't really understand why.

Instead what we end up with when someone starts a new mail app is some half-cocked design that makes sense for that particular user, who is always an engineer, and the result is suboptimal for pretty much anyone else.

So the project fizzles and dies before it even gets started. This happens over and over again even for larger and more visible projects like Mailpile


You can clone the UI, but that's not where the work or the value of gmail is.

Gmail is _fast_. The browser doesn't reload when you navigate around and when you click on something it gets loaded very quickly. You can't just put a shiny UI in front of an IMAP server and get this sort of functionality, you have to write your own mail server with a rather intense database backing it. I have 70,000 emails spanning a decade (mostly useless) and searching is a breeze. Everything works fine and quick with a huge volume of data. When I send messages they're actually sent in a second or two, when I click next message the next message appears in a fraction of a second. The UI is the frosting on the cake. It's critical that it's very fast, but the underlying mechanics have to be very fast too, and that's not just a manner of copying pixels.


Gmail is not fast.

It is fast when a huge amount of JS gets loaded and latency times are low. But with high latency? A horrible experience and if it even works I'm grateful.

It is pitifully slow when on a limited connection. And the contortionist-like procedures needed to log in from an unfamiliar IP don't make it slow, just largely non responsive.


> You can't just put a shiny UI in front of an IMAP server and get this sort of functionality,

Have you tried FastMail? They use Cyrus...

> you have to write your own mail server

... but I concede they (FastMail) do sponsor most of Cyrus's development.


We patched Cyrus extensively to provide the cross-folder searching stuff and other non-standard stuff we needed to make our interface fast. It's all in the upstream project now (and in the 3.0 release), so anyone can use it. No standard IMAP client will speak it of course, and we strongly discourage it. We'd prefer people use JMAP, which is documented and working towards becoming a standard. It's also in 3.0 :)


This is exactly one of the reasons why I created my own IMAP server that uses MongoDb for mail store - to be able to access the emails fast without IMAP in between https://github.com/wildduck-email/wildduck


Mailpile went the custom server route, it's not exactly a turing complete problem


Correct link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Development_Corp._v._B....

I think you deleted the last "."


Curious, looks like an HN bug. Try this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Development_Corp._v._Bor...


> It's really disappointing that nothing better than gmail has come along.

That's what I thought, until I discovered Fastmail. I'm now a happy family account holder, enjoying great support from human beings, and happy that my children won't be data mined for advertising (at least, not in this particular case).

I'm not kidding about the support either. One of their developers was on Github helping out with an issue on an open source tool that, in the end, proved to be a problem with their implementation of a protocol. Fix was in Fastmail staging a week later, and in prod a few weeks after that.


CMU uses G Suite so they do have support and their email is not "datamined"

>Unlike Google’s consumer offerings, which may show ads, we do not collect, scan or use your G Suite data for advertising purposes and do not display ads in G Suite, Education, or Government core services. We use your data to provide the G Suite services, and for system support, such as spam filtering, virus detection, spell-checking, capacity planning, traffic routing, and the ability to search for emails and files within an individual account.


I'd think very hard about that "for advertising purposes" hedge before claiming fully that mail is not mined. It's also not clear if "collect" and "scan" attach to that hedge as well, or if they're in totality and "use" is the only one hedged. Oxford commas have become relevant in contract law before, oddly enough.

I agree it's unlikely, I'm just saying your quote leaves several possibilities open in unkind interpretations.


> CMU uses G Suite so they do have support and their email is not "datamined"

Sure. I was talking about their "consumer" offerings though.


I don't qualify for a 2 foot grey beard yet, but if you set up /etc/mail/access to only accept your domain, virtualusertable to your emails only, you should be set. Oh, and configure fail2ban for sendmail.

Oh yeah, and MX records take some time to update within popular services, so some gmail users might be able to reach you while others will get a user not found error. If you think about it, it makes sense, but it drove me nuts the first time.


Zimbra and Roundcube are the closest OSS solutions. After running an email startup, it's a very hard business to crack (people change email providers infrequently and what they're willing to pay doesn't justify investment except at massive scale.)

Zoho is sorta free and good for BYO domain-based basic web/email.


running zimbra is a massive massive faff.

custom bundled ldap server with lots of java custom goop. Not fun to support at scale


BTDTBTTS. That's an ignorant mischaracterization and it's not hard to do with competent staff. My team and I ran several full HA Zimbra (when owned by Vmware) deployments including major components MySQL, Lucene and Webmail (the only JVM components) OpenLDAP, Postfix, Dovecot, Nginx and various antispam plugins.


I'm using Mail in a Box, it's not perfect but it's pretty good, and no beard required.


Ah yes. Just what the world needs: more organizations throwing their data over the fence at Google's walled garden.

We might as well decomission decentralized e-mail and move everyone on to GMail and FB Messenger.

Sigh.


Yup. Computers and the open Internet that we grew up with/believed in is being trashed for 'free' products.


The big story here is that CMU appears to be the actual developers and maintainers of the Cyrus IMAP mail software, no?


CMU still employs one of the Cyrus IMAP developers for now, but FastMail has been sponsoring the bulk of the development work for a while.

We (the Cyrus IMAP board - https://www.cyrusimap.org/overview/cyrus_bylaws.html) are looking for a new home for the project which is independent of any one single company. I'd hoped to have more news to post before this was made quite so public!


Might I suggest the Software Freedom Conservancy? (https://sfconservancy.org/projects/apply/)


Thanks, they're one of our top two contenders for a new home :) I was going to contact them last week, but the week became a bit busy because we had overseas staff in the office and wanted to use the time with them for face-to-face tasks.


As a CMU alum, the benefits of Gmail outweigh the sheer frustration using the SquirrelMail web client in the public computer clusters.


>the benefits of Gmail outweigh the sheer frustration using the SquirrelMail web

This sentence doesn't really make sense. When comparing two things an advantage of one thing doesn't "outweigh" a disadvantage of another. Those are both negatives for the second thing.


That may be the most pedantic comment I've ever seen.


So you actually didn't understand what was meant by the sentence?


No, because it implies there is a tradeoff but doesn't highlight what that tradeoff is.


Have you never used SquirrelMail?


SquirrelMail is just one client, and from what I recall it's one designed to me minimalist. I suspect that Roundcube or Horde might be more acceptable to you if made available.


Zimbra community edition?

One of my employers uses Zimbra on their own servers. Does a Web based calendar and email and seems to work OK.


What part was frustrating?

Reminds me of my university's slow-slow-slow Sun thin clients that they had all of the school in 2004. Logging in and getting into Netscape at peak times would take minutes. Luckily, I knew how to use Pine.


because squirrel mail is horrid. seriously, download it and install.

it makes you pine for oldschool outlook.


This is sad, Red Hat switching to Gmail was probably the most shocking to me since it's supposed to be a company pushing open source forward.


Do you have any reference about that? I could not tell just by looking at their MX record, and the subject is difficult to google.


the IPs for redhat's MXs are still redhat owned, unless they are doing some kind of proxy setup, seems like they still control their own mail.


Amazing how long some code lasts. Fond memories of working once in a while with John Gardiner Myers in the 90s.


Yeah, John is great. His Unicode handling in Cyrus was way ahead of it's time.

I left CMU & the project 14 years ago. It's nice to know that some code lives on.


Hey excellent, maybe you can explain why <...> :p


Perhaps they should have tried Dovecot.


Cyrus isn't particularly inferior to Dovecot. Dovecot is a newer project (but still quite old), and thus maybe a little less crufty. But, I don't know anyone that considers Cyrus to be a bad tool or poorly maintained. I chose Dovecot for Virtualmin a dozen years ago, but it wasn't because Cyrus was bad. Dovecot has some advantages, but Cyrus has a few, too; Cyrus is much further along on their JMAP implementation than Dovecot, for example, as far as I can tell.


According to the announcement, two main factors motivating the switch were calendar tools and having "modern" tools, which I interpret as having a better web-based UI.

While Roundcube is OK, and personally I like Zimbra as the best turn-key system (webmail+calendar, which we use for our company), their UIs are a bit outdated and feel like second-class solutions.


Indeed, one surprise here is that Cyrus is still around.

Sad that gmail now owns ~50% of all email now though.

(I made that number up. Anyone have any idea how close it may be?)


For personal email addresses in the US, my experience would put that number closer to 80%. In some audiences, it'll be even higher.


And even for the people who have non-Gmail accounts, Google has made deals with a ton of ISPs to host their email service for them -- so you have a Gmail account even if don't have a Gmail account (in a manner of speaking).


Do people still use ISP email addresses?


Yes people do. I know a lot of people don't, but there are still a lot of people who do.


What we need is a complete open source "work email" solution: email, calendar, tasks, address book. I have to say that exchange is very good at that, but its not open source. I would pay, and it would be wonderful, if an open source project similar to exchange gave birth.


I've been trying to create a complete open source solution to this exact problem, although I've only been working on it for a month and so far have only semi-complete the email part of it. You can see the current iteration of it here:

https://github.com/femto-email/client


As expected, the Fastmail pitchmen are out in full force anytime the word email is in the topic.

As the article stated they have a choice of Gmail or Exchange.


Yeah, I got tagged in to talk about Cyrus, as one of the Cyrus IMAP Board. But of course I'll talk about FastMail too, since we do most of the work on Cyrus these days.


Brought to you by the people who attacked Tor for the feds: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/carnegie-mellon-u...




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